Great video 👍 The company I work for are at the beginning of the heat geak journey, completed the awakening and onto the mastery next. Awesome to see someone so clued up in the industry 👌
We had James from Elite visit our property earlier in the year. He’s very knowledgeable and has set my mind at more ease regarding Ashp’s. Firstly he noted that the system was installed correctly which was a piece of mind but the actual setup was wrong. We were having large bills over the two years especially the first year. I carried out some tweaks myself to take at least 25% off the bill. James has now set our weather curve up so it’s not so to speak going full throttle rather more efficient rate, adjusted the weather comp down to 34c which sat the house at a nice temperature. Proof of course will be in the pudding come this winter but I have great faith in what he told us. Always difficult when you are more or less given too much information and told to not touch the system on installation/commissioning Hope to watch your next videos for more informative advice.
forgetting the actual install issues but not lagging pipes in a garage breaches UK building regulation because Part L Building Regulations states that any pipework run through walls in areas that aren’t heated, need to be adequately insulated to prevent heat loss.
Overshoot is not a big problem per se, if everything else is set up correctly. The biggest problem I see is that tank which acted as a bypass. If there is no balancing valve, that tank will get a lot of circulation and heat up the return. To compensate for that, heat pump will turn it's circulator pump and power to minimum to try to hold the dT of 5 degrees, which is hard to do because of the "bypass". In other cases overshoot of a couple of degrees is a way to prevent cycling when zoning valves close briefly. That overshoot only happens when heat pump is running at minimum power and leaving water temperature still rises (not enough heat removal in radiators and UFH).
very interesting, I was very involved in my own install so I love seeing the tuning, especially having a Daikin myself. We have the preplumb setup from Daikin which comes with a buffer thats either setup as a hydraulic seperator with a circulation pump, or i read in the manual you can bypass this remove the pump and just have it as a volumiser. I'm leaning towards doing the latter, but was a little confused about how the heat pump's pump will affect the flow rates on the UFH as it seems to modulate. I did find a setting for the pump which changes it from sampling to continuous, which I hope would take care of that as I know this wouldn't be an unsual setup as far as high efficiency Heat Geek type installations go. Not sure if I'll take the plunge and repipe it right away but your video was helpful non the less!
Just a thought. Underfloor temperature limits may be to do with flooring adhesive, if the 'tiles' are something like Amtico 'vinyl flooring' the 'tiles' are fine but the glue may soften at high temperatures risking flooring lift. Might be nothing to do with it but having a kitchen installed just now and flooring choice temperature considerations were news to me.
You mention a lack of lagging on pipes causing condensation!!! Are they very cold pipes? Is there moisture coming out of the pipes ? I’m guessing “NO” for both of those. In which case you should know better. Lagging is obviously missing but it’s not “causing condensation and damp”. There is a source of moisture in the room and the walls are colder than the wet air. Thanks for the rest of the video. Informative.
I think what he was meaning was that the unlagged pipes is warming the air in the garage, the warm air hits the cold garage walls causing damp/condensation on the walls.
@@adamcole4808 it will only cause damp if the air pics up moisture while warm. If the air heats and then cools without engaging with wetter air or a wet surface then it will have the same moisture content and it won’t change whether or not condensation is happening. If it finds water to absorb and then condensate out then there is moisture already in the area. The warned air is not the problem. There is a leaking pipe, damp rising in the walls or floor, damp air coming in from another room like a laundry room, etc etc. I get that due point and the absorption/ condensing of water in/out of air is not super easy for everyone who doesn’t study or work with this. But understanding it is fundamental to managing heating, building, and resolving damp issues. Despite my appreciation of these guys I confess I’m skeptical of their awareness if they tell customers this stuff. I don’t believe they “told a lie” concisely to blind the customer with science. Also it’s is just a single nit pick in a long and big list of good material. But non the less it niggles as me.
you also missed the fact there is a buffertank in the system when it does not need it. the underfloor heating can do that job just fine and the underfloor manifold is the wrong type, it needs to be pumpless and have no mixing so all the water from the daikin goes into the floor. that means the weather compensation can drop significantly saving a LOT of money.
Blimey, the range of settings is more complicated than my PC BIOS, at least it is to me. Way beyond the understanding of most folk I'd say. So important to have installation and maintenance by people who really understand the kit.
@@EliteServicesGroupLtdI'd like to see that follow up too. Interesting video. I'm in a 30 year old house with quite good insulation and I'm not sure if I should go towards air to water or air to air. Air to water is a simpler fix as we just need to plumb it into the existing system but then we might need bigger radiators and possibly need to install underfloor heating. Air to air can give us room by room control and air conditioning in summer but means more work fitting the piping into all rooms.
As soon as you said there was no insulation on the piping outside the heat envelope, it was pretty obvious it was a cowboy installation. Excllent video.
Like in many other new industries I would imagine they face issues with lack of skills, standards and how these standards are enforced. One of the reasons why I'm not that keen to be an early adopter
Very interesting, but every time I hear about the challenges of getting an air-to-water heat pump system set up, balanced and running efficiently, it seems to me that the tech is very delicate and easy to get wrong. I think this is a huge problem in the UK, given the lack of knowledge and expertise among installers (and customers). I'm pretty sure I am going to forgo the BUS grant and go for air-to-air in my house. Just seems so much more robust and elegant. Less easy to f*** up!
@@EliteServicesGroupLtd there are hardly any in my area, and to be honest their websites etc are unimpressive. They seem to be gas boiler installers, mainly. I did watch a heat geek video about air-to-air and his conclusions seemed sketchy to me.
@@cliveramsbotty6077 as far as I can see, once one gets past the Brit obsession that heating must somehow involve plumbing, and realise that the expertise one needs is in the air conditioning area (mostly commercial sector), the way seems clearer.
All the faults we found aligned with what they have been experiencing over the last couple of yr. we have now rebook to do the fix. Original installer doesn’t want to know.
Interesting, just a few things you said 7 kW of energy, it should be 7 kWh. Pipes should be lagged to stop heat loss but that would not cause the damp issue. What is used to heat the water tank above 60 deg C to stop legionnaires risk, heat pump or element?
Yes kWh. Will see it’s the only thing in the garage hot hitting cold and only started after the hp installed…. And they still need lagging to. Hp at achieve 52oc then element for the remaining.
With hysteresis set to 27° I presume this means the water temp would Drop by 27°c - before water heating is called for ? This means less cycling but temp of water varies quite consistently… or don’t have that all mixed up?
Seriuosly......the only way to heat your house efficiently and with out all the bollox that comes with a wet sysyem is a2a....aka AC. Mutisplits have been installed in the UK for 30+ years. They're tried and tested and the experstise is already there. Obciously it's an AC engineer that would install an a2a system so thats an added bonus not having to have a hairy arsed plumber messing up the install 😜. I believe certain manufacturers are producing multisplits that will also heat a cylinder...... Direct Expansion BABY!
Interesting and, as a heat pump customer, a bit scary. Cheekily, do you know where I can find the data on the Daikin Altherma 3 Monobloc 11kW that shows the max output at low temperatures as you were quoting for the 14kW, please?
Claiming unlagged but warm pipes in the garage caused damp issues? Also expecting existing radiators to satisfy room requirements after reducing water temperatures sounds illogical. I'd be very interested in customer satisfaction after your modifications.
Have u got qny advice on a mitsubishi ecodan my mums is only just touching a cop of 3 it has no weather compensation from what i can tell ive looked up manuals and when i try the options to access the menu nothing happens. The flow and tank dont have separate temperatures so the flow is up at 50c. My 3 bed house same era is costing less to heat than her 1 bed bungalow. Both insulated similarly owned by same council. I dont get how to improve it .
Interesting video, just shows that that installer had good intentions, but failed on key points , that bring the efficiency down. I am just starting out on my heat pump journey. I am in the North East and have had octopus survey and have not paid for heat geek survey, waiting for the appointment to come through. Busy upgrade some cold spots in my house that I found when running my combi boiler at 40deg last winter.
Any disadvantages to installing "oversized" radiators throughout the property before having a heat pump system fitted (other than cost). Does that make a ASHP work more efficiently if they are larger than needed?
So what i concluded from this is that they need to spend another few thousand to bring the bill down from 30 a day to 25 a day because while it's not greatest install and a RU-vid material rads coming from 50 to 35 will be huge difference for customer, people are used to roasting rads so we are technically reducing comfort in here, lowering stats to 21c reducing hot water, so reducing comfort to lower the bills and original investment was probably already 15k. So just don't see math here, but again this is just my view and i am not a heat pump engineer.
We’ve installed hundreds of heat pumps. We can design to any temp. 21oc is the MCS standard and very comfortable. We speak from personal experience of having a heat pump in my house.
@@EliteServicesGroupLtd did u ever install heat pump on buffer with two coils one for heat pump another one for solar and then distribution header (system link) with 2x pumps, 1hw, 1uf 140m2 watching heat geek, and watching u this configuration doesn't seems very efficient but that's what i had in my head how i would do it, but now i see that this conf would keep triggering HP on/off all the time since it would only heat up coil on buffer.
Sorry i forgot to add i am planing to install Vaillant split HP, because of cold weather and freezing issues, no glycol, no anti freez valve because temperature can go to - 20, avg is - 8 in winter.
If you have a buffer between flow and return that is called a two pipe buffer according to the Book by John Cantor. I think the principal is this is allows for mismatched flows. If the flow of the heat pump is greater than the system it will treat the buffer is a bypass that's incorporates a delay in delivering heat to the heat pump on the return due to the volume of water it contains. This would happen when zones are in operation. If it's any time the flow on the secondary side should exceed the flow of the heat pump again the buffer will like similar to a low loss header. It is the two pipe buffer which was allowing the underfloor heating to be set to the lower temperature while radiators were running at the higher temperature. You have adjusted the curve to supply water 35 degrees at 0, I assume you check the radiator size against the heat loss to show that this was an adequate temperature for these radiators to operate at. Had the customer complained about the rooms overheating that was supplied by the radiators? You also turn the temperature for the underfloor heating system up did the customer complain that the underfloor heating was failing to heat the rooms? I really don't like the use of a high temperature underfloor heating manifold on a low temperature system comma does the Daikin unit support the use of variable temperature mixers? You're familiarity and confidence with the controller was very impressive. I think the main two problems you identified, the blocked filter incorrect heat Curve are faults I find on every heat pump I attend. The second most common fault I find is the use of an incorrect pump when the pump is not part of the heat pump itself. Phone flow to be between 50 and 75% of what it should be. The correctly rated pumps can be very expensive and installers are just fitting standard capacity pumps to save money.
@@EliteServicesGroupLtd I have trouble believing this. Others have said its near 1, and I have seen data sheets that show 1.4 around 5C. Today its hard to find such datasheet information its like they are deliberately hiding it. There is so much concentration on average COP (now called SCOP) over the period that we do not need heat pumps, aswell as putting heat into the building when it is not needed. I fear that resistive heating maybe nearly as good.
@@tonystanley5337 I don’t believe SCOP is a good medium to look at. Just COP. you can find product data on the MCS website. The highest temp we would go @-2 is 45oc flow.
As with home owners they only talk one language $$$$ the route to get there is why they hired you. Seems most heat pump problems aren't that they don't work it is that they work too good for our idea of heat. The flame on my water furnace thermostat to tell me it is making heat is a symbol of the past to represent the burning bush. Slower heat more often is the only way to go even in this right now world.
5:32 It’s not kilowatts!!! It’s kilowatthours. Kwh. How can anybody take you seriously if you don’t understand the difference between energy and power!
Probably just a slip of the tongue, as this guy does seem to be reasonably clueful. But way too many people just use 'kW' for both units and expect us to guess which they were talking about. It's important that professionals get it right otherwise punters just get hopelessly confused. Sadly, I did see one person make a youtube videos to explain the difference simply demonstrate that they did in fact not understand the difference! That really wasn't helping anyone.
In that case you'll know that energy is measured in Joules, and that one Joule per second is 1 Watt of power (the rate of consumption of energy). So 1kW of power is 1,000 Joules of energy per second, and 1kW consumed for one hour is 1kWh (or 3,600,000 Joules of energy) 8-)
