The first 1000 people to use the link will get a free trial of Skillshare Premium Membership: skl.sh/12tone11201 Some additional thoughts/corrections: 1) I should note that, while to the best of my knowledge most ear training/aural skills courses don't give this nearly as much attention as I think they should, it's something that any serious academic musician is going to pick up on their own at some point, because it's just so useful for so many things. 2) Another tip that didn't really fit in anywhere in the script: Try to work with stereo mixes if you can so you get a bit of free separation just from the panning. 3) I chose to use the guitar part on 6 Inch instead of something subtler mostly because I thought it'd be good to use something whose impact was obvious once you noticed it, and that you could easily go back and listen for if you knew it was there. It's possible I overshot the mark on that and it's too easy to hear for most of y'all, but I suspect that a non-trivial portion of listeners didn't consciously register it on their initial listen. 4) Oh, also! The practice stuff I've described is based on my own experience. It's what worked for me, and hopefully it'll work for you too but it's possible it won't, so if you try this stuff and it doesn't work, maybe scan through the comments, see if anyone else is leaving other advice.
I found most stems I used to practice on remixpacks.ru it's full of pop music and even some songs from the rock band series. Though again, not always quite legal so be careful
It might not be that the guitar in 6 Inch was particularly easy to notice & remember, so much as using a Beyoncé song with an Isaac Hayes sample meant that many of us were already very familiar. Maybe an equally easy but more obscure song would've been ideal.
12tone first of all I LOVE YOUR CONTENT, As a #PIANIST (Classically-Trained) for more than 25 years since I was just 6 years old + qualified to lead an entire Orchestra... I realized something : One of the most important skill I've ever mastered after years of practice is UNDERSTANDING the difference between LISTENING / HEARING. Only one of them is functioning consciously the other still a mystery as our subconscious mind. I think it's more important to us - Musicians - the audience do not need to focus on the technicalities. But let me be clear, regarding the interesting title... WE ARE LIKE SURGEONS, PERFORM WITH OUR HANDS WHILE OUR MINDS EXTREMELY FOCUSED & FULLY IN CONTROL, ITS NOT ABOUT THE TOOLS WE USE ITS HOW WE USE IT. SO IF YOU WANNA LISTEN TO MUSIC LIKE A PRO. YOU NEED TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY IT FIRST. I know I was raised & trained at the most conservative field of music, yes it's a strict disciplinarian academic practice (more than religious schools😂) but let's not deny the solid foundation unlike any other artistic form, we owe our pro Status to every music #TEACHER 🎼👁😌🙏🏽⭐️
I always find it incredible how many layers make up a well-produced, professional studio recording. Stuff you never notice until it is pointed out, and then you can't unhear it.
Yeah, I realized the same after the first time I worked with an actual professional composer/arranger/sound engineer. Gosh i miss working with that dude
Which is why so almost all of modern rock and metal production sounds like garbage. Roughness and realism (like, standing next to live guitar amp) is integral part of that sound, and that studio foolery is just removing all the natural nuance making everything sound boring and bland.
As someone who's spent years behind a soundboard, I can say mixing will definitely send your listening into overdrive. Sometimes when there was a musician in a band that I was amazed by, I would solo that channel out in headphones to really immerse myself in it. But it made me think about something else that wasn't really covered here: Watching. It's not always an available option, and live music is something we're all missing right now, but when you can use your eyes and ears together, it makes picking out lines that are kinda buried in the mix super easy to latch on to. Maybe trying with performance videos right here on RU-vid would be a great start!
1000% agreed! I put a friend of mine onto Snarky Puppy's live album "We Like It Here" and I implored them to watch it instead of just listening on Spotify. When you have multiple senses fixated on the music you can really zero in on a lot of the subtleties, especially when there's so many moving parts as is Snarky Puppy's custom lol
Are there any artists you worked with that had low quality instruments but were able to sound really good after you did your thing? I have a low quality bass guitar but a good amp with eq and a few vsts ive been eyeballing and was hoping i dont have to buy a new guitar yet
I want my MTV (80s style, when MTV was actually about music videos ) Back then we got to watch bands play their music and could see what was being done. Some video had a story others were from concerts. It was a fun way to appreciate music. )
This is why it helps to learn the basics of an instrument. Ive been practising the drums for a few months now and it opens up a new way of listening to songs.
This sounds kinda dumb because I don't play any instrument for realsies... But back in the day I used to play toons of Guitar Hero, and when the one came out that had drums as well, all of a sudden I started noticing waay more detail in the drumming of any song I would listen to.
One of the things that helped me with this is learning more than one instrument. Being able to look at a song from from different perspectives of say, a rhythm player on percussion and a melody player on strings helps me tune in to different parts as well get a sense of the roles they play and how those fit together. Now I just need to actually get GOOD at one or two of those instruments...
I find it's ok being jack of all trades, master of none. I play four instruments relatively competently, with piano being my strongest, probably because I've played it the longest. I can also play guitar, trombone, and I have enough rhythm and a little technique experience to play drums. I'm content with not being a virtuoso at any one of the four instruments I can play. Being able to play many instruments competently is just as impressive as being able to play one virtuosically.
I started out as a drummer, then picked up rhythm guitar and was a lead vocalist for a while, learned mandolin and these days mostly play Celtic harp and sing. I think my roots as a drummer especially make me more groove conscious, especially compared a lot of other harpists, many of whom have an... expressive sense of timing
This is exactly why doing “barebones” covers of modern songs (just one instrument and a voice) is so difficult to pull off: the amount of layers that make so many modern songs work means that taking so many away strips many songs of what make them unique. That’s why so many songs from the 50s all the way up to even the early 2000s are so much easier to cover: they didn’t focus on layering nearly as much, so it’s not weird when all the layers are missing. So many modern genres are leaning more and more on layering. Pop, R&B, Indie/Emo, heck even Metal is getting more into modern styles of layering. I’ve personally been saying for a while, layering is by far the most defining aspect of today’s music as compared to the last hundred years
I'm not sure what you mean, are you talking about layers of polyphony? Or layers of the same line across many rich timbres? I'm not sure I'd be convinced music has become more polyphonic, especially in such a broad sense and over 100 years
@@jacksonbarker7594 I think OP is referring to the different elements of a track. I.e. chorus, reverb, delays, backups, pads, synths... basically the bells and whistles that make music so "produced".
Is there a bigger multitrack than an orchestra though? And even early recordings were doing big band stuff (as a live take), once the technology to mix layers was developed bands definitely made use of it (like with more psychedelic music in the 60s). And there were definitely 90s bands layering 40 tracks of guitars, or lush walls of sound - those huge 48-track mixing consoles were built for a reason! I guess what the OP means is the kind of music that's built as lots of sparse layers, where individually they don't really make anything, it's the recording as a whole that pulls everything together. So instead of a basic melody and progression that's fleshed out by adding more layers, which you can easily strip back, it's really about the entire "performance" which is a lot harder to condense down. Especially when it involves really rhythmic layers
It's by far the worst aspect of modern music. Nothing worse than listening to someone liv and they sound like absolute shit. As opposed to someone like Zappa or Prince who sound much better live.
@@augustgreig9420 I'd disagree. It's definitely harder for lesser known bands to sound good live (like my own, lol we suck) because they don't have access to the technology that would make that kind of live experience possible. Even Prince played with backing tracks (though I don't know enough about Zappa to talk about him much). So I would say that while it takes away from local bands, it still works just as well live for those who have access to the technology that makes it possible. I don't think it's better or worse, just different.
"You can turn one song you love into dozens of different musical experiences." So true!! There are so many songs I've listened to countless times focusing in on different parts and hearing new nuances. I love the way you interpret and think about music, 12tone!
A great video series for breaking down songs into parts like this is Rick Beato's "What Makes This Song Great". I've learned so much from that series about close listening to music and how to hear parts.
The British composer Frank Denyer really inspired me with his level of orchestral listening. As well as correctly distinguishing intervals of a sixth-tone from individual players in a full orchestral passage, his wife would often apologise on the phone if he wasn't available, because he was engaged in "listening sessions" which would last several hours at a time.
One other important thing to mention as well is using decent headphones at the very least. You'd be wasting your time trying to practice orchestral listening with just phone speakers. Pretty much the entire bass frequency spectrum is unavailable on bad speakers/headphones.
This. I'd recommend ATH-M50xs, they're extremely good quality without being TOO insanely expensive (they're still not exactly cheap at $150, but compared to real audiophile tier stuff, it's still much LESS pricey) and they'll last you a long time, especially since the cord is replaceable.
I wouldn't quite say the opposite, but I'll say listening to music on a variety of devices can be really helpful - they bring forward different parts making it easier to notice things you never noticed before.
@@fisk0 right, but there's definitely a quality floor to those devices individually, such that your overall listening isn't bottlenecked by the device you're listening to. $7 headphones just aren't going to have enough separation to distinguish the different instruments that aren't right up front. Basically, it's possible to look at a muddy pond, but a clear pond will make the bottom visible too.
Panasonic RPJ-HJE120's &/or RP-TCM125 !!!!! Better than or equal to Beats by Dre audio quality, only $6-13, NOT WIRELESS, no latency, no crackling, reliable enough to withstand several construction projects, need I say more? 😊
I play guitar, and so naturally I seek guitars in songs I listen to. A few years ago a friend of mine - a drummer - and I were talking about Sultans Of Swing, when we both paused on a single point in the song and said "wow that was amazing", however I was talking about the guitar lick, and he was talking about the drum fill. That was the day I discovered orchestral listening. Thank you for this amazing video!
One thing... I think singing what you hear then playing it on your instrument is like the #1 tool of musical learning. Singing helps your brain to internalize musical patterns and harmony. The more you do it, the better you'll get.
It's funny, the first time I heard the sample I managed to isolate the guitar almost immediately, but classified it as some kind of brass instrument! 😅 Nevertheless I have to thank you, up to now, the only description that I had for this ability came from my mother during my childhood, who told me that I wasn't just listening music, but 'dissecting' it, and they couldn't figure out how I did it. Now I can share this video with them! 🙏
I used to listen to individual parts of a song for fun, when I was a kid- didn't even play music yet. A great album to practice this skill on is "Pet Sounds". It's so dense that you'll never get bored breaking down each harmony, each instance of an instrument doubling another part- so lovely.
Haha so true, I am a Senior Music Education Major and the only time my aural skills teacher made us do an orchestral listening thing more than once was when I was with the "crazy" professor. You know, the one that grew up in Germany then moved to America and graduated from his Batchelors on sax then played in a band and drove a van full of wasted fools a thousand miles every week and then went and got his masters in a Brass instrument then his doctors on flute. But aside from him, the closest we got to orchestral listening was in music history when we listened for style to determine time period.
Another tip that has worked for me for practice is to listen to recordings that have fewer instruments in them so you can try to pick out 1 of 3 and then work your way up to 1 of 5,6,7 etc.
I've been "orchestralistening" my whole life, it comes naturally to me to do so... I didn't even know it was called that, hell..I didn't even know that was a thing. Back when I used to smoke pot all the time I'd listen to music and try very hard to concentrate on parts of the music that was buried in the mix, like the bass guitar was always hard for me to hear while trying to block out everything else out...whats funny is ,as I write this you are talking about the bass,haha! Neat! Thank you for the work you do, I love your videos, I never leave comments either,haha
Orchestral listening, I will use that term from now on. Actually I always use that skill whenever I listen to any song. I tend to pick apart each instrument on a song and appreciate what it does in any given time. But I can't decipher any more than that because I lack any musical theory knowledge. I developed that skill when I started learning guitar. Back then, I was using very cheap PC speaker and I had to listen very carefully to know guitar line in every song. As my ear was getting more developed I could hear bass line more clearly. Nowadays, one of the first thing that I listen to in every song is the bass line. I don't play bass but I tend to enjoy song with interesting bass line. Off course as a guitarist, interesting riff is still the primary thing that makes me like a song. A side effect of this is I ignore the vocal line in a song. I only give more attention to vocal after I make sure the song has interesting riff and or bass line. This is one of the reason why I don't like pop music since it tends to have prominent vocal in its mix.
As a regular listener who just spends a lot of time with music, I somehow picked this skill up by listening to discographies of all things - those sometimes include singles, and it was a common practice to include instrumentals and acapella versions. Thus, effectively giving you some separation and giving the ability to listen to the specific parts of the songs. Reading the lyrics along with listening to the track helped too - by making your mind focus on specifically the lyrics and how they're brought into the track. And then it just became a hobby, to listen and to try and get as many nuances as possible, at least when I'm specifically listening and not just hearing as a background. A great skill, although sometimes it is both a blessing and a curse.
In middle school, I remember listening to some David Bowie songs so many times that i was able to memorize each instrument part. wish I could still do that D:< I didn’t know enough about music to make it useful at the time. however, I think I’d be well set up if I ever wanted to make an arrangement of Life on Mars or anything ^_^
So my degree is in music composition and I gained better orchestral listening skills from composing and getting more into barbershop singing than anything we did in class. Our orchestration class taught us what to expect when two instruments are combined (flute+ oboe in unison is more mellow and less intense than each instrument individually) But writing my own music made it easier because I personally like songs that start with a single line and build from there until it hits. Barbershop is in a similar vein, where I like to sing each line. (Although the tenor line is still a bit high for me. I'm working on that.) For a more contemporary version, I'd recommend listening to Queen or some of the Boy Bands and Girl Groups that pop up. Anything with more than one singer, really, preferably 3 or more. Try to sing each person's part. You'll get better at hearing timbre differences in the human voice alone, and it makes it easier when finding them in other instruments, where the differences are less subtle.
Been writing music for 43 years. Just recently, did my first covers CD. Decided that I wanted to stay as faithful to the originals as possible rather than do my own thing, which is what most people do. So this "skill" is exactly what I needed to use. Didn't realize how difficult it was as I'd never really tried it before. Eventually, I managed to duplicate each song note for note and part for part, but not without putting in a lot of work. Ultimately, I found it very rewarding, though I don't think I'd want to go through that torture again, especially not with some of the incredibly complex songs I decided to tackle. But the hardest part, strangely, was not duplicating the right notes for each part but duplicating the sounds. Getting the guitar just right. Getting that lead synth just right. Even getting that snare sound just right. I'm going back to doing my own music but this has given me a real appreciation for what goes into a song to make it more interesting than it would be had you not put in all those additional parts. In short, it has made me a better arranger. Thanks for the great video. I had no idea this is what listening to music as a pro meant.
My tip / How I taught myself this listening style (dispite not knowing its name): Listen to anything from Led Zeppelin, and isolate the bass. Then repeat the song and iso the singer, then the guitar, then the drums. (&/or vice-versa) - LZ was almost PERFECT with its mixing, so it's always gonna be a nice, thicc groove. There's TONS of nuance, and it's not too hard to pick apart the songs, especially since every instrument usually has its own flourishes! Once you learn and practice the skill enough, I highly suggest "Achilles Last Stand"! I have gotten _weeks_ of unique enjoyment out of that song!!
Extremely happy that this is my 12tone birthday video. I have done this orchestral listening before but I never had a term for it. One of my favourite songs to do this to is “Watch that Man” by David Bowie; listening to just the goofy guitars is its own musical journey.
Listening to/watching stuff like Rick Beato's What Makes This Song Great series (on YT) helps too, as he usually plays the actual stems part by part and analyses them for you. It's certainly made me hear parts of my favourite songs that I've never heard before.
Worked for a few years as a piano-bar performer. This is the skill that is required for that work. Listening to music, hearing the parts that are iconic/integral to the song, and translating them to piano. Definitely not something anyone teaching, at least for me it was a skill that over the years you just get better and better at. Glad you see it as an important one, I know in my life it has changed the way I think about music altogether and shaped my life as a musician forever.
As a live sound technician in a podium I can relate to this. I'm used to listen to a single instrument in a band, focusing on just dlthe sound and the way it cuts through in the mix. I need to hear the frequencies to cut or boost for the hi hat, guitar, bass etc. Without the orchestral listening you're describing, my job would be nigh impossible. The skills I've learnt while mixing bands are carried over to listening to albums. The sound of the mix is important to me, some songs that others love, I can't listen to simply because I don't like the way it has been mixed. I'm not that good in interpreting music in the theoretical way, but I know how to orchestral listen.
I had some harmonic analysis in school but never a whole lot. Just four part dictation. Especially the inner voices are hard for me to nail down accurately unless they're in different timbres. So you're definitely not alone in that.
orchestral listenining really is just savouring music, the same way when you eat you can squeeze food on your taste buds and isolate some tastes over others, and make a simple meal a very rich experience. You'll also eat slower which can be very wise if you wanna digest better / not eat too much. It should be taught at school very early, I'm sure many many people cruise thru life without really enjoying these free very pleasurable experiences available every day. You can do "orchestral listenning" watching a film or the sky too, for every sense there is if you focus your attention on it there's a lot of information and pleasure to squeeze from. It's definitely more enjoyable than focusing on your inner chatterbox.
I’m self-taught, and this is precisely the skill that has helped me grow the most. Most of the concepts you cover present quite a learning curve for me, but felt good to fully understand one!
Oh my god I honestly thought this was something everyone did. I'd always get so confused when listening to a song with my fiancée and she wouldn't pick up on a cool bass line or drum fill that I'd immediately lock in on.
Orchestral Listening is one of the skills that I think I learned over time from playing Viola and singing Alto in group situations where I couldn't "just follow the sheet music". Music theory classes never taught it to me, but I suppose my orchestra and choir directors did things to help me along that might be uncommon in other places. In orchestra our director had us stand up away from our music-stands and walk around to random places, so I had to listen harder to other parts to stay with it. And in choir our director had us stand randomly mixed to practice listening to other parts once we got to a certain level. Although I'm not sure if that's the same "level" of Orchestral Listening required for transcribing music, and it still took a long time for me to learn
I listen to the individual background instruments by default, and it's exactly like you described - it's like listening to the same song from different perspectives. I can literally hear a song many times on repeat, just to tune in to different instruments every time. This is a big reason why I tend to not like songs that are just vocals and simple chords, because they have no depth to them.
This type of skill was taught in my music course at college, and it was called "aural perception". Just as you described, it's a very useful skill for pulling apart a piece and understanding its nuances and how they interact.
This was an exercise I practiced at university. We'd be given a song and have to take note of all the instruments on the track, time signature, mode, any specific techniques used. It almost becomes natural with enough practice
I have done this all my life.. I think of the sounds as sound fibres/ threads in music and me pulling them apart, hearing just the one I pic. When I pic one I see it move up/down according to what notes are playing. Then I do the same to all other sound and eventually listen to the hole song again, knowing exactly when every song comes in. Thought everyone listened like that. Didn’t know it was a specific kind of listening and had a name.
This has always happened naturally for me. I can hone in to almost any instrument, vocal part, and percussion going on in a song. This was how I was able to recreate a song on Garageband with many tracks, sounding pretty close to the original.
Singing along (or whistling) with music is almost essential for me to like it, but I very rarely sing along with vocals. I was thinking the other day about just how much Frank Zappa guitar solos have made me a better singer. I cannot recommend Zappa enough for learning to listen to ornate, counterintuitive music. I still can't quite follow Sinister Footwear, though.
This is a skill I have been developing thanks to all of your videos and other channels like 8 bit music theory where you guys break down and explain interesting parts of songs I'm interested in or have already internalized and love.
Just a fyi for people who want to use transcribing as a practice method, but don't like it not being used for anything: If you use Guitar Pro, you can upload the transcriptions to ultimateguitar.com and other people will be able to use them. You can also win prizes from the website mods and I've even had people leave me tips for my tabs.
I heard the guitar the first time! I think I can naturally do orchestral listening and already do it when listening to music (even before I watched this video). This might be in part because I'm a percussionist
I think I was about 12 when i started listening for specific instruments in songs. I don't actually remember why I started doing this. It might have been because i was bored and thought it would be a fun challenge isolate exactly what the drums are doing. In any case, the years of practice have been quite helpful.
I feel very fortunate. I stumbled into this way of learning music, and hearing your description brought me flashbacks of transcribing Beatles & Sting songs in high school.
We were taught orchestral listening during concert band rehearsals, not so much during normal music class. The conductor would always say "listen down", as in listen to the lower instruments like Tuba. I do like a good bass line too.
The classic of adding an instrument but turning its volume down close to zero. When you think there are only four instruments in a song, but then check its tracks in karaoke-version.com and find that there are more than ten instrumental tracks.
Funny, I have a tin ear but literally the only thing I picked up from that Beyonce excerpt was what the guitar was doing. I guess I was subconsciously keying into that part rather than what the vocals were saying or... apparently there were drums of some sort? That's what I like about this channel. I am a terrible listener and an almost worse musician but it's still cool to find out what it is about the stuff my brain does latch onto that makes it do so.
As a total amateur musician, who is pretty terrible at straight up transcribing stuff but pretty good at listening at different parts inside songs and recognizing their effect to the overall arrangement, I credit a lot of my ability in that stuff to Rock Band and Guitar Hero music games. If you have at least some knowledge of music, the way the gameplay practically forces you to focus on a certain instrument's part (or sometimes an amalgamation of multiple similar instruments) is really great at teaching at least general concepts about arranging for those instruments. I know my writing for guitar or bass got instantly better, after starting to play those games but even with keyboards and drums that I play for real, the games have familiarized me with a far wider range of different part writing styles than I probably would have otherwise bothered with.
As a pianist, I often focus on melodies within melodies. This may sound really strange if you're not a pianist. But on the piano you're often playing melodies in melodies. For example: C E G C E G C E A | B D G B D G B D A. Where the little melody would be G G G A G G A. Arpeggio's are the best example of this, but there are tons of others. For example in orchestra's where different violins play different melodies. Even though it's the same instrument. And I don't mean counter melodies. No, melodies within melodies baby. ;)
man transcribing backing vocals is hard. like i get halfway thru the chorus, and then hear 3 notes being sung but 1 above the lead and one below it, Im like "great now i have to relisten to the first bit to see if that lower one was actually there the whole time."
i was thinking about this recently, i play guitar but don't really feel like a guitar player and this resonated with the skills i've used guitar to hone. My friend was playing me a depeche mode song he has been listening to since the 80s and i pointed out a vibraphone he had never heard before haha
I've developed this skill naturally and I've actually had a hard time learning to hear harmony. I would say the reason I do this naturally is because I listened to Two Steps From Hell, an orchestral group that makes a big point of putting as many instruments as possible into their already gigantic mix
Dude there was this very specific thing I wanted to search but I just googled Advanced listening music; this video came up. It's literally the exact, exact opposite to the skill I was looking for; i.e. listening to an orchestra piece ALL AT ONCE without focusing on any of the tracks. Peeling back layers as you call it, is a pretty standard need any musician feels the lack of when starting out, so no wonder even an amateur like me spent most of my life practicing it. But going into a zone of just absorbing all sounds coming in, without differentiating tracks or instruments, seems to me a very real thing (because of a recent experience) and as you increase the number of tracks, the difficulty DOES NOT increase unlike a juggler adding more and more objects in his/her hand. Cuz you're just absorbing. I'm a newborn at this factually speaking and will continue to search/practice, but adding a comment here to return when I find something and also request @12tone to please please share thoughts on this 'unpeeling' phenomenon!!! Dying to know if others feel it too!
This was a skill I started to develop as I got more into production in my teens, and to this day I still find old songs I loved as a kid, pop in a good pair of headphones, and marvel at all the little flourishes, production tricks, and even entire instruments that I completely tuned out when listening to those same songs all day every day as a kid. In fact, it gave me a proper appreciation for Linkin Park's first remix album "Reanimation" when, as a kid who was otherwise obsessed with the band, I didn't care so much for that album. Relistening to it as an adult revealed so many layers I hadn't even noticed, and of course my musical tastes have expanded and I'm able to properly enjoy the wide range of genres explored in the remixes by their own merit. It's also an invaluable skill as a producer, giving me a better ear for what elements of my mix should be more up front or more subtle.
I learned this by learning what each instrument sounded like. Then I read the liner notes to see what instruments are used. Then I try to pick out each instrument. The same skill works with TV and movie production: learn what each credited job is in the titles and look for that.
weed is the greatest tool for orchestral listening. i've never been able to differentiate different sounds, instruments and beats as clear without it. it makes everything so incredibly crisp and prominent.
I mostly learned this by singing in a renaissance choir I started with friends as the only tenor: I needed to find ways to sing in tune with the others and to get back on track if I got lost (which happened often in rehearsals in some complex polyphonic parts). I developped it further in being in my music school jazz and rock band. I'd say it's probably an easy way to learn how to hear others and therefore learn orchestral listening.
You mentioned the way I got turned on to that "orchestral hearing" right at the end. Since the young age of 4 I had headphones in my ears listening to music and my dad's guitar at hand trying to imitate what I was hearing. my parents told me that I would just close my eyes and move around and act surprised with the music. All that story to say I always instinctively tried to focus on what every instrument was doing. But I didn't do it intentionally until much later in life when I went to music school. And yes, you are not wrong we never focused on that part of ear training in class. Instead it was a music production class I CHOSE to take in that music school that made me realise that I needed to listen much more intensely to understand the music Im listening to. But my teacher still didn't talk about it like that. He told us to listen for differences in mixing and where every instrument was in every mix which is tangent but not exactly it! After that I started training that skill and eventually started listening to Jacob colliers vocal arrangements like that and tried to sing every part. Other people should do that too imo
I’ve been in band for almost half my life and have been working on production of music for about 3 years now, so this is bias probably, but I had no idea this was something hard for people. Sure, I don’t hear everything first listen, but I constantly look for different parts to lock in on throughout listening to a song, cause it’s more engaging and I feel it more. I don’t even do it on purpose sometimes, it just happens. I can’t imagine only hearing the most prominent part of a song, must feel like being on crutches
I studied classical music in college and learnt this listening skill as a side effect of following the different instrument parts on printed orchestral scores over the 4 year course. It became second nature after a while.
The Sydney Opera House is nice flourish. I recommend imo the artistic pinnacle of contemporary songwriting, Laura Nyro's 1969 album New York Tendaberry. Stripped back, but symphonic sounding with sensational orchestral flourishes and melodies. It has everything, including amazing dynamics. The title track breaks every rule of songwriting convention.
After years of choral singing I got to be pretty good at focusing on the bass parts of songs since that's the part I was singing. I recently discovered that I was missing some pretty cool solos (like Carlos Santana's guitar or various instruments in work by Huey Lewis and the News) while I was singing along to a not-very-interesting or at least very-repetitive bass part. I've since started practicing paying attention to other lines and in particular, figuring out other vocal lines to sing besides the obvious melody or the obvious bass part. I've gained a new appreciation for some 80s and 90s pop as I finally hear some of the tight harmonies I was just plain missing all these years.
I probably listened to Lip Service by Elvis Costello at least 5000 times in my life. It wasn't until I decided to learn how to play it that I realized that there is an acoustic 12 string on the track. Blew my mind.
I study acoustic engineering, and i had a few courses on this subject, identifying al the instruments in one song, the audio processing, the panning, etc. And how this evolve during the musical piece. I even made my final report on the power that b by death grips. Those were definitely my favorites semesters
I think a great tip to cultivate orchestral listening (which I already do but never called it that way before) is trying to actually appreciate different musical genres, as in actively listening to music youre not used to and paying attention to what makes that music be different or perhaps not that appealing to you, maybe try to classify a song in a particular genre and then search for more music that’s similar in style, in my experience, it really helped me to notice things in music that I didn’t think about before, both making me more drawn to music that I didn’t feel interested in before and also making me even more excited about music that I already liked. 👍
In my experience, orchestral listening is treated in academia as a talent some people have and not everyone needs. So for performers who are not composers (or pop musicians), this is an extemporaneous skill. Composers and people who aspire to be any level of band leader (whether combo or orchestra conductor) are assumed to naturally possess this skill as is a thing-I think. In any case, I agree, it should be cultivated because to people who can do it “instinctively” it’s one of the dividing lines between “good” and “not so-“
Do you believe most pop/rock/jazz/blues/hip-hop/electro songs are done with deep and complex analysis? Or do you believe they're written by instinct, trial and error, in the research of beauty? Of the right sound, musicality, intonation, or even harmony and melody? I mean, some pieces, like classical, contemporary, baroque, or even movies soundtrack are obviously the result of a complex reflection and well thought generating process. But the rest, the "popular" music. (Or even melody lines in the previously mentioned pieces). Are they the result of a thought process? Of a gut feeling? Of multiple repetition of the same pattern with subtle alterations? I mean, all of these can result in creative stuff. Like the use of different time signature, or use of microtonal notes to induce an atmosphere.
It blows my mind that this is likely a passive skill being developed under the surface for most music listeners when I’ve been air drumming, dum du dum bass line singing, and guitar solo crooning since I was like 5. Thanks for giving this mode of music listening a name!
At one point in my life I decided to force myself to listen to classical. I liked classical and knew the legendary composers but wanted to know of others so instead of the local rock station I listened to the classical station. I found there were pieces that were good and others that were not as good. Just like most genres. What I eventually started doing in my head is trying to imagine how classical pieces would sound in a modern way. Listening to each instrument or instruments and trying to imagine how it could be done now. It was a revelation. Now when I listen to classical it's not just a wall of music but more individual threads of music intertwining to create whatever it is I'm listening to. I don't know, this is how I see it and it makes all music much more interesting.
I'm not very good at music theory at all, but I've been wanting to listen a lot more closely to my favourite band's music. I'm rather pleased with myself to find out that I've already been implementing orchestral listening into my routine. Also, stupid question, but do western pop artists sell instrumentals? My favourite genre is '90s Japanese pop-rock, and having the instrumental (with background vocalists) included with singles is something that seems to be consistent with their releases.
any advice for someone who naturally hears all the parts in music as separate unless it's really busy, but can't really hear the chords and harmonies, or anything much that only comes from putting it all back together?
I’m not sure it counts as orchestral listening, but I definitely noticed the guitar part...because it’s part of the same Isaac Hayes sample that Hoover used in their song 2Wicky.
I felt I have become much more aware of what you define as Orchestral Listening ever since I began listening to Conjurer, because of the amount of small details and flourishes that their songs are soaked in, and just by practicing my ear this way I have felt my songwriting has improved a lot, and I've came to the conclusion that Orchestral Listening is essential to become a good songwriter as it forces you to think of pieces as more than just the sum of their parts
the handwriting switching from right-to-left to left-to-right and back again. So fun. Not only that, nice advice to use one's ears. Listen. That's what we're about after all?
I studied as a classical composer, and this was a thing that I was exposed to primarily in composer-focused courses. So, I'm not sure how the courses I did not take but those studying performance did take covered this subject. I will say that the argument about mixing helping you appreciate those aspects better is similar to my experience as a composer trying to create my own acoustic soundscapes. I will say that as this ability kicked into overdrive during my training, it took me a while to control it to help enhance casual listening experiences as opposed to analyze too much during such an experience.
