This is such a terrific video! I have been scouring RU-vid for guidance on thumb placement and share your conclusion about the many factors-range of motion, proportion, overall size- that will affect the development of an ideal left hand frame. Eddie Chen has a kind of long rambling video about thumb position and hand frame (very worth watching) in which he suggests that thumb position for small hands actually might be higher and my own experience is that this is true (for me) but you have thoughtfully identified the many factors that need to be considered. Personally I start with relaxation and the ability to independently move each finger curved and with ease and speed and then try to figure out where the rest of my hand and wrist need to be to facilitate that.. Your addition of weight distribution to the mix of factors is super helpful. I have not found that anywhere else.
Thank you so much! I haven't seen Eddy Chen's videos in a long time, so I'll check it out. :) Thumb placement is very interesting because in reality, it will really depend on what you're playing. For the sake of setting up hand frame I was using Schradeick's 4-finger setup as the guideline. The thumb needs to be flexible, especially when we need to do doublestops and shifting. I'll talk about it more soon...! Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
The arm alignment and thumb under the violin tips are real gold, helped me even with vibrato, thank you so much for this precious video. Salutes from Brazil 🇧🇷
Thanks so much! I'm a beginning adult fiddle player and just found your site. No one had mentioned alignment of left elbow to pinky knuckle as you demonstrated. Your instruction will be very helpful to me...thanks again!
Contact base: yes, so true! Its acutally better to hold the hand lower, because if you have the hand higher, the fingers yes, do come from above, but they also fall much wider, especially the first finger will land to high. If the hand is lower you can put the first finger way more lower! :)
Yea, you're correct about the improved range of motion of 1st finger in lower position. In reality, this is actually more individual, and based on proportions. "Broad" hand vs long fingers. Hands of ALL sizes can fall in both these categories. Broad hand (ex - palm that takes up more surface area in relation to the shorter finger length) does quite well low.
Hi Inna, This teaching is amazing to me because I have small hands and short Pinky. What you have taught me is invaluable and that will give me more weapons to stay injury-free for difficult pieces I somehow made it through on my Paganini Caprice 5 on my last video but this will help me to practice on a safer platform. Thank you very much my friend for the lesson. Love, Tony🙏🙏🙏❤😻
THANK YOU SO MUCH for this video!!❤ You really pointed out all the important things to look out for! I recently got a teacher again to continue my studies but we're working on my foundation and one problem i have is my left hand form because i told my teacher sometimes i have a tough time "setting up" a vibrato (which i shouldnt be doing) and he suggested to experiment and change my thumb position and see anything else feels more comfortable and relaxed. I tried a few placements but i couldnt reach my 4th or it flattens and i was frustrated because it was just used to my usual thumb/4th frame. Then i found your video, looked at the mirror while trying the different thumb placements and realise my 4th had always been pushing my wrist out without me realising! 😱 so now im going to try and find that optimal hand form/thumb/4th, while remembering all your pointers (align wrist for ALL finger placement, weight distribution etc) Thank you! 😊 And also, thank you for emphasizing every hand/fingers/palm are different and require different "setting up". I think a lot of times many would just specifically say things like your hand should be like THIS. But they dont realise some people's fingers are longer etc and the shape changes a lot from one person to another, even if they're all "small hands" its really inportant to realise every hand is different!
Awesome - I'm so glad this video helped you, and congratulations on going back to your studies and the many good observations you already made! Keep up the great work! -fellow Yuzuru fan ;)
Thank you for this instruction. I have been positioning my hand higher,up and above neck with the crease of the palm parallel to the neck, the tennis ball shape, which has been causing me to apply too much pressure on the strings and difficulty reaching notes. Your suggestions are very helpful and my hand is less tense. Thank you, Deb with small hands
Excellent video, Inna! I'm a small hand player so this is perfect. I am still exploring thumb placement in the lower positions. Another challenge is playing with a relaxed hand in really high positions. I have to bring the thumb around to the rib of the violin to reach really high notes, but I feel some left hand tension when I do this. It makes vibrato very challenging. Thank you for this great video!!
I very much relate to what you're saying about the high positions. Thanks for bringing it to my attention! Thumb position... aside the "setup" position for the frame, the thumb will have to be very flexible and change, depending on what we do. Sometimes I am reluctant to say the word "position" or "placement"...
Sooooooo informative, thank you! I was worried that I’d have to just deal with an uncomfortable wrist. How do you play on the g string with your pinky?
Use your elbow to swing the arm around. By doing that the thumb will end up lower down and fingers will come more from above while keeping a straight wrist. The fingers should maintain more or less the same shape regardless of string being played on. Another thing that might help is check that your base knuckles are more or less parallel to the neck of the violin (but this also depends on the size of your hand)
I now hold my thumb right underneath the neck... it seems to work for me, but it's taken a while to develop the hold and I've also had to do a lot of tweaking with the shoulder rest.
Thanks for wonderful videos. It is all really helpful. You are an amazing teacher. Actually, I have a question about double stop vibrato. In a case like I should press G on a D string and D on a A string at the same time, it is possible to use one finger and try to do a wrist or arm vibrato altogether? I tried, but things went such a mess. Could give me a tip about such a condition, like I should try to find out my own efficient way to use two fingers or I should do a finger vibrato?
Thanks for watching. From my understanding you are trying to vibrate a perfect 5th right? Those are very tricky to keep in tune WITHOUT vibrato. Generally, for those kind of intervals (4ths, 5ths, 8ves) I opt to vibrate very, very little or not at all... So for perfect 5th, just use 1 finger of course, but keep that vibrato like a small shimmer (arm or wrist doesn't matter - as long as you keep the finger angle more or less the same.
Whilst my hand is far from large, my little finger ends 3mm below the last joint of my ring finger. So on G string in anything higher than 3rd pos my little finger is almost flat, the other 3 are over round. I see you pinky "matches" your ring ringer. Mine is half as long!
This is exactly why it's so important to consider proportions rather than go into the whole duality of "large/small" when establishing the left-hand frame. The situation you describe on G string is one reason why some players look for more opportunities to use 3 instead of 4 (depending on the repertoire and passage in question, of course..)
@@Violinna Thank you for taking the time to reply. I've sometimes wondered about that but I'm afraid it counts as "cheating". Won't it block/slow progress? I'm struggling with the sul G passage in Elgar's Chanson de nuit. BUT I have found one advantage of a short little finger: since the first time I tried, I've never missed a 4th finger harmonic in 3rd position! (every cloud... / swings and roundabouts...)
@@machanrahan9591 It's not necessarily cheating. Not according to Zuckerman anyway😅 "fingering for comfort" ru-vid.com5CNDe6_RfsU?si=K1ARwcQgrSV0T3Dw But I understand what you mean about the importance of not hindering development. I'm sure you can make a case to do both :)
@@Violinna Thank you ! I'll have a look at the link you've sent me. Where are my manners! Happy New Year ! I wish you health and happiness in your personal life and success in your profession.
Thanks for a helpful video, which is exactly what I need, especially feeing very bad about my small hands lately. I play viola, I'm 4'11" and my hand measures at the size of a 6-7 year old child. I own a 15.5" and I'm unfortunately going to need to switch to a 14" which is violin size. Even that is too big for me though, I can't reach fourth finger with all my fingers down. I'm thinking I might need to give up on playing viola, because I might hurt myself, and it will be impossible to play fast passages or have 4th finger available for vibrato, so I'm hoping some of these techniques will work for me. When I move my thumb lower and shift my weight like you demonstrated, I find I am hooking my wrist out of straight position. Any thoughts on how you keep your wrist aligned while shifting weight and also pushing up with thumb? Also, when I optimize my weight on my 3rd finger, I tend to have trouble stretching back for a low 2. I wonder if I should cheat and use my first finger for low 2!
Hi Laurie, Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed comment. 4'11.75" here ;) It's actually hard to say without actually seeing your hand/what you are doing, but one idea you can try is imagine you are shifting to 2nd position as you go up to fingers 3 and 4 (but actually it's another "version" of 1st position just with weight transferred as the fingers change). I remember this suggestion in a viola masterclass some years back (topic was continuous vibrato in 1st position, which is wide on viola). On viola your wrist alignment will probably have to make a slight compromise in the faster passages - I have the same situation on my 15" viola (but rarely play it to prevent back/neck injury).
@@Violinna thanks for the response! I'm also 4'11.75" :) I appreciate knowing that I'm not alone in this small hand struggle, and I'm encouraged to keep learning to adapt as you have so I can continue to play! I also find the heavier viola fatigues my neck, but I do enjoy the deeper tone of the viola especially the larger bodied ones. I'm hoping I might find a 14 inch viola that still has a nice deep resonant tone which I can compromise with. Thanks for your videos, they will be a big help. :)
Lovely video! I have a slightly small hand with a short pinky (only slightly over the knuckle right above the base knuckle so bad proportion) and the ordinary hand frame kind of works, but the third and fourth fingers become impossible when I have a low second finger down, and the down scale is a mess. Working on it with a teacher but do you have any tips you could share from your playing and teaching experience?
Thanks for watching! :) I'm glad you're working on this with your teacher. Your case sounds very tricky. Have you played around with changing the thumb position when playing downward scale for that low 2? It would calibrate the weight distribution a little. Remember it's always better to reach back with lower fingers.
@@Violinna Oh not so much yet. I will try that! Thank you! Your point about reaching back with lower fingers in the video (and your comment) was/is great, genius to exaggerate a little bit. Excited to try out!
Could you advise how to hold on to b, c natural and e (on the a string) without the second finger sliding down? Nothing seems to work with my small hands
Start with fingers 3 and 4, and then reach back with 2. Make sure that the base of your 1st finger isn't squeezing the neck of violin, because the low 2 position might require the part touching the violin by 1st finger to change a little. (ie - keep it mobile)
How do you hold up the violin without your left hand? I comfortably play without a shoulder rest, but I heavily rely on the support of my first finger (at the base). When I take that support away, the violin swings to the right and down. I would love to learn how to not need that support (at least not 100% of the time)!
That's what is typically taught in any first violin lesson - how to support without left hand. However, without a shoulder rest, some support does come from the left hand, but primarily from the thumb (NOT the base of first finger). In my case, my thumb is more under the instrument. On the other hand, it's also important to learn to hold it even for a few seconds without support in order to do downward shifts. Changing the chinrest upon removing the shoulder rest helped me a lot.
Gee sorry I meant chin rest 😊 I am looking for a flat one . One that doesn't hook under jawbone, I find i need both shoulder plate and chin rest as I have sloped shoulders.
@@BG-it5ol this chinrest is not flat, and it's quite high. It's the Berber model. It hooks more than most chinrests actually...definitely not what you're looking for. Check out chinrests.com - they do custom fittings.
Her 4th finger is much longer, relative to mine. So this video helps but can’t relate. Also arm or wrist vibrato? Just listen and match a recording that you like. Just match it. You can slow it down on You Tube.
There are certain fundamentals that are the same for everyone (for example, keeping wrist straight - the first example from this video. Not collapsing fingers is another...). Other things vary slightly from one hand to another.
Excellent! But Heifetz uses a straight pinky? Heifetz is the greatest, and doesn’t use a shoulder rest. Notice how high his elbow is. That’s the Secret!
Well sliding my thumb a little bit downwards would solve my problems but my teacher would kill me if i do that haha...he thinks that the thumb guides the hand to find other positions when shifting and if my thumb is already in 2nd or 3rd position i'll have more problems when i get to it...
Yes, thumb defines other positions (at least the first 4). But maybe your thumb's "definition" of 1st position frame is distinct. Of course, it also depends on what you're doing in 1st position, because some things will require it to move more up or down (no single one position). In this video it's all about the frame when all 4 fingers are lined up. But what if you have to trill? The thumb would adjust for that. I have a separate video about the thumb explaining this...
Her chinrest, shoulder rest principals don’t apply to me. Very good video. Heifetz used a straight pinky. Nobody plays as well as him. She certainly doesn’t come close. You have to find what works for you. This video is great but doesn’t help me. Plus my playing can blow her away. My hands are very much smaller. Moving the thumb forward releases tension but makes your hand smaller. I use a 7/8 violin. Females are much more flexible than males. Her hands are normal, not small. She can’t relate to me. Stretching is the answer. Obviously came from Soviet training, witch does not apply to everyone. I do recognize that she did make it clear that it may not work fo you. She still is basing everything on her physique. Wrong.
Thank you for the comment. I think you make a valid point, which Inna also mentioned, that this setup is different for everyone. What I did find useful is that she explains things in quite a bit of detail for her anatomy. These principles can then be applied for different anatomies, while still maintaining a level of comfort, potential for dexterity and consistent basis for anyone’s playing.
