My two cents: Run Thundertree as is as a one-shot AFTER the resolution of Wave Echo Cave. Perhaps weeks or months later, the PCs catch word from Reidoth who sought them out after hearing about their heroism in Phandalin.
That's probably what I'm going to do. I really like the idea of the Tundertree section as a self-contained little story, but it would be very hard to integrate into the starter set storyline, so I just won't bother with it. Another possible way to give hint to the players about this quest is the idea that in Nezznar's stuff there's a map in the Wave Echo Caves. Just let that be a map where Thundertree is marked and have a note on it with the promise of some magical weapon that the Black Spider would want to fetch and sell after he/she has dealt with the caves.
When my players rescued Gundren, I had him stricken with an ominous spider curse/poison that covered his body in webbings and left him drifting in and out of consciousness. My players carried him back to Phandalin and sought out Sister Garaele to heal him. It was beyond her powers to heal so she pointed them to Reidoth. So now they are on the quest to find and retrieve Reidoth to heal Gundren. When they get there I'm going to have Reidoth insist that he can't leave with the dragon there but warn them that they are crazy if they try to remove the dragon. This was all my way of hooking the druid and dragon into the story. They'll arrive tonight. This could be my first TPK as a DM, lol.
@@heyitsMattyP And have the Kobolds be aligned with Venomfang, so green Kobolds. There was a Kobold-Oneshot where one of the Kobolds had a Cloak of Protection that was basically just a cloak with a dragonscale as a magic treasure.
I feel like Venomfang, & the dragon cultists are just there to set the scene for Hoard of the Dragon Queen. They even use the same pictures for the cultists in both books. It feels kinda shoe-horned in, so like you suggest, I didn't use it in the main campaign. What I did instead was to run it as a coda. A kind of "last hurrah" for the newly level 5 characters to test their mettle against. It felt a lot like a one-shot with established characters instead of an extremely deadly distraction.
Yeah! WotC did those shoe-in things for like half these adventures - there's hooks in SKT to TOA to HotDQ etc etc etc. I'm not a fan in general, because it kind of dilutes whatever story their trying to tell. I think your approach here is a good solution.
@@heyitsMattyP Agreed. I think they were being apologists about HotDQ being subpar, and thought they'd kill two birds with one stone leading into Rise of Tiamat with this instead. The dragon certainly feels tacked on, but it's definitely not supposed to be a combat encounter! It's supposed to take some damage and fly away, just like the banshee.
Actually if you read the pregenerated characters back stories the folk hero fighter knows about the dragon. Their ultimate goal is to drive the dragon away not defeat it, destroy the ash zombies and revive the town. That's why the dm notes say Venomfang flees at half hitpoints
The thing I used to fix venomfang is by turning it into a social encounter, instead of a violent one. I did this in one simple step, neznar stole venomfangs egg, and is holding it hostage in return for the dragon becoming its minion. Makes venomfang more interesting, and nezznar becomes instantly more intimidating.
Thank you so much, i were gonna run this adventure from the start in like 6 dayss and i were scrambling ways to redo this part. Since im a Completely NEW DM, i ahve barely played DnD before like 2 sessions that started THIS month, and i were gonna run Lost Mines for my friends but i realized that Nezznar was gonna be overshadowed as the video said. But this idea sounds soooo cool and im deffinetly gonna run this version thank you.
@@wombatt2031 glad I could help! Honestly I switched around a LOT of stuff, best list of changes I recommend. 1. DO NOT start the adventure how they suggest. Instead have the players meet in neverwinter, and have a festival. Just improv some games as skill checks and add some food and trinket stalls, give the player Inane little knick-knacks like yoyos or sticky hands (that item is actually my sorcerers personal fave) 2. Don't focus on the various guild things the book tries to shove down your throat, just focus on the lords alliance, and mabye get sister garale and the harpers involved if your party needs hints or help. All the other ones are pointless window dressing and will make the game feel stiff and awkward l 3. Be sure to foreshadow the doppelgangers, BUT DONT PLAY YOUR HAND TOO HARD OR SOON, I went too hard into it and my players never trusted another human being, they trusted VENOMFANG faster than the captain of the guard XD 4. Don't forget to weave subtle hints and clues that the spider may be watching them, if soneone rolls a decent Perception tell them they see some spiderweb in the trees, or mabye a small set of eyes watching them. Also be sure that if someone makes a nature check, describe how overall there is a surprising lack of spiders in the area, implying the spider is controlling and or hoarding them. 5. Do not be afraid to change or hand wave away anything else you don't like, bring in stuff from outside the book, or from other books. Homebrew shit or steal other people's homebrew. Just be sure to DM with confidence and your players will have a good time. Hope some of these tips helped as much as my first one, and good luck!
Very good stuff! When I ran LMOP (as first time DM) I heavily altered a lot of things. Thundtree was going to be a complete sidequest that would set up Venomfang as the adventure AFTER LMOP. I had a big plan that Venomfang would become the next BBEG but would get taken over by a primordial forest spirit and be driven mad. Then my players completely ignored every Thundertree hook and went to Wave Echo at level 4. Cest la vie!
I can see it now "hmm that dm sure wants us to go deal with a dragon, we'll do everything else but." / a ha! yes, yeah um sure, you've foiled my nefarious ... / good good i didnt wanna tpk you guys yet anyways.
I wanted my players to fight the dragon but not thundertree. So I had the black spider whisper as she was dying. “You have no idea what you have done”. And then upon exiting the cave in the main hall the dragon was there waiting. And one of my player spoke Draconic so they found out the black spider had a deal with Venomfang and could have made the same deal but they chose to fight it then. It worked really good even though it was kinda like, oh wait a dragon. The players ate it up. And I kept him in the cave so he couldn’t fly to make it easier.
I run a heavily modified Lost mines and Icespire peak where Cryovain is the end boss and Venomfang (named changed) is the warden of the forest. In the beginning of the campaign i tell the players theres a rumor that 2 dragons have been fighting in the area and theres a reward if they can kill them. Venomfang tries to scare off Cryovain but doesn't think hes really a threat since hes a white dragon but Cryovain has a magic eldritch item that curses Venomfang ( it was supposed to kill Venomfang outright but Venomfang is a arch druid and is using her magic to keep herself alive but is losing her maximum hp by 1 every day). Venomfang apprentice is in town and after the pc's deal with red brands she asks them to escort her to her master. she says she knows the forest better than any one but since the red brands broke her broom she cant get back on her own. I basically use Venomfang has the forest quest giver for all the stuff ive added to the forest area.
@@heyitsMattyP well I split Venomfang and the apprentice because i want to keep Venomfang weak for the entire adventure. if Venomfang ever get strong enough to deal with Cryovain she would. The apprentice is about ready to go through a rite of passage at the heart of the forest (a dungeon). when they they finish and get to the heart there's a magic apple. the apprentice takes the apple and it will reverse the curse (she gains 1hp a day until max).
Actually, now that I'm playing Icespire Peak and DMing the starter set at the same time, I see a huge appeal in meshing the best parts of these two stories together in a longer beginner-level adventure. Both have great story threads and locations in it, but most of the Icespire peak side quests feel very interchangeable and fillery, and the main story is not that strong either, so it could profit a lot from the more cohesive main storyline of the Starter Set.
Love the idea of having the Druid replace Sildar. Sildar just died in my campaign, so this is a perfect idea. Killed in pursuit of Agatha (do bear in mind, I'm combining LMoP and DoIP). I already had the Redbrands (unwittingly) working for the Dragon Cult! Fits in so well with this story plot. I've kept the Thundertree as a quest site for the puzzlebox. Black Spider is still a villain. But, she's a DIFFERENT villain... in much the way the the blonde German lady was a villain in a certain popular adventure movie series. Having Thundertree as the ENTRANCE to WEC is brilliant and would have simplified my life significantly... where were you when I needed you???
Actually, now that I'm playing Icespire Peak and DMing the starter set at the same time, I see a huge appeal in meshing the best parts of these two stories together in a longer beginner-level adventure. Both have great story threads and locations in it, but most of the Icespire peak side quests feel very interchangeable and fillery, and the main story is not that strong either, so it could profit a lot from the more cohesive main storyline of the Starter Set.
King Grol wants to expand his control of the surrounding forests, but is hampered by Venomfang's presence. Klarg wants either to impress Grol, or supplant Grol, and so he hatches a plan. Lots of squishy human-like adventures come and go along the roads, so Klarg has his goblin raiders attack and kidnap an adventurer that Klarg can force to go fight Venomfang. If the adventurer wins, Klarg can take credit, if the adventurer fails, Klarg doesn't care because he hasn't lost any of his own raiders. It also gives a reason for the goblins to attack the heroes as they want to capture more squishy adventurers.
Venomfang was given a ring of spell storing, with polymorph and find familiar in it. She had clobbered the Druid Reidoth, tied her up, stuffed her in a box, and polymorphed herself to look like the Druid. The party cleared out the rest of the ruins, met phony Reidoth in the doorway of her house, then saw her up at the tower watching them. Then, they came back past her house, found it a couple days’ unoccupied, dust and leaves on the floor. When they met the fake Druid in the tower, they figured out it was the dragon in disguise, made excuses, and crept away. Then they found the Druid tied up in the box, with 4 levels of exhaustion. That’s where we paused for the night. To be continued next week…
I turned Thundertree into a brass dragon for a social encounter. The brass was willing to share secrets about Wave Echo cave if the PCs could convince him. To go a level deeper, the brass dragon would stay invisible and throw his voice towards an ancient sphinx statue. The rumors of the area were that a 'sphinx oracle' could provide them with info. The brass dragon just liked visitors and gossip. My players got along with the dragon (disguised as a sphinx statue) who invited them back, then on their second visit she popped out from behind the statue with a friendly, "Hello!" Overall, I still got to play a dragon and play up alot of the cool aspect (especially the second visit) without fear of a TPK.
Fantastic video as always! I agree it's best not to include Thundertree, but I have to admit your outline for a module rewrite focused on Venomfang is really interesting (especially the reworked Redbrands)! Now I might need to run this campaign again!
You could set up Red hand of Doom with the Goblins, which begins at Level 6! Make them Dragoncultist gobbos! Should be easy to set the campaign up in that area. Great video, you deserve waaay more Subs! Looking forward to more:)
@@heyitsMattyP Its a pretty solid module from 3.5 edition, but it has been converted for 5th by fans. I haven't played it yet, only read it, but Its about a goblinoid dragon Cult that destroys several tons and subjugates several giant tribes and other montrous races under a Halfdragon Hobgoblin-Warlord called AZAVAR KUL. (I cant not write that awesome name in allcaps.) Matthew Colville made a great video on it, and I would love to hear your take onit!
Nice! I'll take a look :) And if I make a video on it, I'll make sure to have some kind of spicy title like, "Matt Colville was WRONG about the Red Hand of Doom!?!? #drama"
Why do the Cragmaw gobbos kidnap Gundren in the thundertree version? Reidoth is a clever druid who has narrowly escaped Venomfang's clutches years before and, importantly knows the secret to activating the forge of spells within Wave Echo Cave. Venomfang has contracted out the goblins of Cragmaw Castle to kidnap the man who lives at a certain address on the outskirts of Phandelver. Unfortunately, the goblins snagged Reidoth's husband, Gundren Rockseeker. That gives the goblins a reason not to kill Gundren, the druid an existing relationship with the dragon, and gives Reidoth a reason to approach the party to save Gundren! His days of adventuring are long behind him and he needs someone to save his love
I've been struggling a bit with trying to figure out a way to add Venomfang, as it's always cool to fight a dragon, and I think I might've figured it out. Nezzra no longer wants to be a magical arms dealer, but instead is a green dragon stuck in her humanoid form. The force in Wave Echo Cave is the key to unlock her dragon form, and this is why she really wanted Gundren. After the PCs face off vs Nezzra, it will be too late as the spell has already been lifted. Nezzra gets to transform and take off, available to be fought in a one shot after the conclusion of the original storyline. That way I get to keep Nezzra as an even greater adversary than before, and have a really cool moment for my players. Just need to figure out the exact reason why WEC is the key to unlocking her true form...
Another great vid Matthew! Love that you expanded reasons for cutting this part of the adventure. I'm planning on running this as an epilogue to the main campaign.
Obviously I think my ideas are great- they're my ideas 😁 but I posted a comment with the general idea I've used. Thundertree is the first encounter, the druid, cultists, and venomfang can remain players throughout the story. It might be a reference when you plot your adventure
1st off THANK YOU for this series! I’m including Venomfang as a main antagonist who has an uneasy alliance with the female Black Spider. Venomfang is revealed REALLY early when the group is riding to town to deliver the supplies to Phandalin. To make this work the main mcguffins to get the Forge of Spells roaring a few things are needed (1) a magical elven hammer that was the homebrew heist quest / one-on-one session zero and tutorial for the players (2) a Dwarven smith, Gundren and his brothers are just such Dwarves. And (3) Dragon’s fire to provide the magical flame 🔥. By having a quick cutscene of a Brass dragon and Venomfang wounding each other in an overhead battle for the claim of Phandalin, the group knows that there is an evil dragon as well as a good dragon in the area. Control of the mines is contested by the Black Spider and her minions. The long-term control of the mine will be up in the air once the green dragon notices that the old magical forge is operational again and a perfect place to lair in.
Just spent time reading all these different ideas because I so deeply want to use Venomfang. Rather than a total re-write, here's my take, as best I could knock it together: Nezzar stole one of VF’s eggs, which gives her leverage. VF begrudgingly gave Nezzar her necklace of Dimension Door (1/day) but it only works so long as VF wants it too. At the end of the climactic fight with Nezzar, she’ll try to escape, but the necklace does nothing, and with her dying breath she curses “that scheming beast” and tells the party, “I could not beat it, what makes you think you can? If you’re smart, you’ll run.” As others have said, as they leave WEC, they meet VF in the entrance. Once at half-health, VF flees back to Thundertree. Green kobolds serving VF integrating w/ other factions to spread her influence and watch for Nezzar. - Goblins - Uneasy alliance, goblins treat them badly under Klarg; King Grol works them into his kingdom seeing VF as a way to secure his place - Redbrands - Switched to Greenbrands after Iarno arrived (coaxed by Nezzar), enjoying their dominion over Phandalin without knowing what the bigger goal is. (Droop is now a green kobold, the last of the emissaries to the Redbrands after the rest were fed to the Nothic.) - Conyberry - kobolds desecrating Agatha’s destroyed home, making her angry at Garaele (she healed one of them and helped them speak to a fallen comrade) - Bandits - Now a kobold lair keeping watch on Phandalin and the surrounding area. - Cultists - Still trying to win VF’s favor, tolerated only so long as they send some of their number out to search for Nezzar.
Really dont like this re-write. I think if you have the essentials kit, move Dragonfang and Thundertree to Dragons of Icespire Peak adventure. Then run DoIP as a sequel to LMoP. The two dragons and added dragon cultist naturally feed into the Tyranny of Dragons campaign.
I had an idea of VenomFang being connected to the backstory of the forge and really wanna share it! I apologize for the length of this. Essentially change it so that the attacks on the Wave Echo Cave were done by Venomfang and dragon cultists instead of Orc mercenaries, and that those who used the forge attempted to create something to weaken V.F before the forge was lost. Although they were able to create an item from the forge to anchor V.F to the area of Thundertree (or maybe the surrounding area) and implanted it in him, they weren't able to create the weapon in time that would react with the item and fully weaken him. This is where the puzzle box and the Black Spider comes in. Inside the puzzle box would be the hilt of the weapon that was going to be used to weaken V.F and the hilt would also be used as the way to enter the forge itself. The Black Spider's intentions are basically the same as in Matt's previous videos, to become a magical arms dealer, however the idea of the potential publicity that would come from slaying a dragon with one of the weapons that was made by her? She would be able to sell her weapons like crazy! Thus that is why she wants the forge. To not only be a weapons dealer but also to have the one weapon capable of weakening V.F enough to kill him and get the fame for her business that comes with it. This does bring up some issues with V.F's age and interaction with the party, but I think it could potentially be interesting to set up a dynamic where V.F want's the puzzle box destroyed while The Black Spider wants it for herself. What do you guys think? Any potential suggestions?
Excellent idea! V.F. would clearly not be a young wirmling. But the sword hilt could be a piece to a sword of dragon slaying, which would help the players deal with a harder V.F.
Thanks for this video! My party begged me to add the dragon back in, so I’m going to add in ANOTHER key to the forge, but it’s “optional”. When the party rescues Gundren, he tells them about this secret key/item that Nezzar is not privy to. If the party can wrest the key from the dragon’s chest, it contains an item with a one-time use “command monster” type spell. Ideally, the party can use it to take control of the forge guardian (a beholder, of course!) and use it in their fight against the Black Spider, whom I am going to beef up for dramatic effect.
Hmmm. Interesting direction. Quite an overhaul of the starter set content. You don't consider having the Black Spider as a follower of Venomfang as a viable option? Either as a leautenant type or tricked by greed.
So my concern re: including BOTH the dragon and the drow is it kind of splits focus. Not just the focus of the players saying, "Should we fight this villain or that villain," even if they're on the same side. But it also splits the DM's focus too, because now we have TWO pretty major personalities, and to use either of them properly we'd have to develop them and their relationship with the party. To do that, we're either making the campaign longer or we're allocating less time to developing each of our villains - I'm not OK with either of those options. Now, that's not to say it's a bad solution narrative-wise. It's just not my preference for the kind of streamlined game I try to play.
Fair enough. With streamlining the campaign being a major objective, I can see how this would be a concern. It definitely would take added effort on part of the DM and would extend the campaign I suspect.
The one thing that has to be said about all of this is that, sure cut it IF you don't plan on carrying on with this campaign by other means (homebrew or other existing modules). But i would advocate for keeping it if you want to start tying more story and adventures to come. While i myself am fairly new to DMing, see this Campaign as more of an "ACT 1" in a series of acts. I plan on making Nezznar just another Cog in a bigger machine, or have him escape and return later on with a new plan in mind to achieve whatever it is that he seeks from the forge. That being said, i do want to say thanks, you gave me some things to think about. I just want to make this my own instead.
I've run the game a couple of times and the first time my party of experienced players killed Venomfang. They ended up drawing him out of the tower and then used some clever tactics to take him out. In my second run through the players were able to bring him down in HP enough that he escaped to save his life. Part of this was players making sure not to clump up and to use terrain to place obstacles between themselves and the dragon's breath.
This a great video. Well put together, and great points both for and against Thundertree. One downside I often encounter with dragons is that they're hard to incorporate throughout the adventure, not just at the end in their lair. Harder than humanoids at least. It's always a little lame when the first time the players meet a villain is also when they kill said villian. On the plus side, it's a lot easier for dragons to escape if they get into a fight away from their lair, and have a strong reason to fight to the death within their lair (their hoard).
Amen! Dungeon Masters love their secrets and their dramatic reveals, but sometimes they can kneecap their story's dramatic trajectory, robbing the players of those fun opportunities to roleplay with the baddies and develop that fun rivalry.
In my first run through, a well-loved NPC hustled off to Thundertree to find Reidoth for reasons, and the players chased after her not knowing whether she was safe. Spoiler alert, she wasn't! She was about to be lunch! I also have VF able to morph into a "strangely green" humanoid who scoots around town, hides in trees, claims to be Reidoth, and asks, "are you SURE you want to take that pile of treasure?". This made the WHOMP! I'M A DRAGON! reveal pretty epic. Also, the cultists stole her egg, and boy was she mad. The party negotiated for it as a bargaining chip, which worked wonders. I searched out some good Forgotten Realms lore and gave VF a recent tryst to roll this into a larger piece of the campaign. Running it similarly for group 2 tonight and next week. For first-timers, I also suggest making the heirloom jewelry a minor magic item (or at least MUCH more valuable), otherwise it doesn't make much sense. Love your grand re-write ideas. Green is the new red!
Oh no, this fix is 1) too much work and 2) cuts out all the other great stuff you've already added to the campaign. Better and easier fix: people always ask what to do after they finish LMOP, so why not just use Thundertree as the basis for a short sequel? "Oh no, it turns out the forge of spells doesn't fully work without the other macguffin, and these notes recovered from Iarno's workshop say the thing we need is hidden in Thundertree. This riddle tells us where to find it, but we have to search." Now Thundertree is a scanveger hunt to find something. The players are 5th level and can handle the dragon if they want. The thing you have to change is to up the CR of all the other stuff. Twig blights and ash zombies won't cut it. But this is a very easy change. And if you really want, Thundertree can serve as the starting point for a true sequel campaign. But you do have to do a lot of work for that, as you're creating it out of whole cloth.
So I've only DMed one-shots so far but I bought LMOP because of this video series. I love all your changes and advice, but want my players to have a dragon in D&D especially when there is a dragon on the cover. I'm tempted to try swapping VenomFang for a Copper dragon maybe have him make the party clear ash zombies and spiders out of Tiptree for him. Maybe I'll make Tiptree available as a sidequest on route to Cragmaw castle and offer information about goblin defences as a reward for completing the quest. I'll need to think of a way to tie it all together and foreshadow things before my party gets that far.
Nice one Eric! I'm super flattered to have helped you pick a campaign to run. If all the players want is a dragon fight, I would make a dragon be the guardian of the Forge of Spells. And make whichever is in the puzzle box be something that gives the dragon disadvantage on all rolls if the party has it. That way, you're not diluting the story by including a separate sidequest, and the party gets to fight a dragon at the end. Just make sure to let the players know early that the guardian is a dragon!
I gave Venomfang the ability to transform into the Spy. Mac, a roguish man with piercing emerald green eyes. He befriended a party member, and talked him into a carriage robbery to demonstrate his value. Now that he is close to the party, he stole a bunch of high value gear from the party by passing a note saying “I am the slave of a dragon that is around the corner, this is a robbery, hand over your and do not react at all or else my master will kill us with his breath” even though Mac IS Venomfang. As a fight broke out in Cragmaw Castle, he snuck away and took king grols treasure and map. Leaving a note “ye snoozith ye loseth
I plan to start with DoSI and proceed with a mix of LMoP and DoIP. Main villains will be Cryovain and Nezzar (first female Drow/later Drider). Venomfang will mock the PC's, but is not interested in fighting them. He does not like to have Cryovain destabilize the area and if he sees a chance that the PC's will fight Cryovain, he may even help. Not every evil creature need to be an enemy.
I made reidoth a more impactful and needed , as the characters spent a lot of time within phandelin and gundren was barely alive and the map was gone by the time they arrived within cragmaw castle, they had to help reidoth in order to get the information as to where the wave echo cave was, little did the party know whilst hunting days before e group of goblins and bugbears he interactged with mentioned some hidden cave and the black spider, so now venomfang wants this information too, the party then had a choice wether or not to fight the dragon or strike a deal with him , even though they almost definately plan on backing out of this deal later, I could see this going all kinds of ways but it seems they plan to use the dragon to deal with the spider , and hopefully fight a weakened dragon. just gotta find a way to make it work.
Maybe they are, like, super slick? They have a spy network? They could get an upgrade in the rework. OR maybe they don't know - maybe it was just dumb luck! They could have learned about it from Gundren after attacking him.
I’m tying my MoP campaign into taking my players on to SKT next so I am trying to find ways for Thundertree to eventually lead into SKT and Icespire Peak.
I've used Fred's advice as well as yours to modify this Adventure and I am moving Venomfang to the Wave Echo Cave area and saving it for the Finale if my players defeat the Black Spider in less than 4 rounds. What better place for a Green Dragon to establish its Lair?????
What if the black spider is an agent of Venomfang? Perhaps the dragon needs feet on the ground to accomplish its goals, and the blackspider could even be trying to manipulate venomfang for her own gain?
I think this encounter is designed to teach players to be creative more than anything. Yes, it CAN be lethal if your players all charge in and don't think to do anything other than initiate combat, but I make sure my players get a very real sense of the intense danger that they're up against, and they almost always come up with some very creative ways to navigate the encounter. I have had players dropped to 0 here, but they've always been saved by another player. The key thing is that they don't NEED to kill the dragon, but to find a way to drive it off to fight another day (perhaps becoming a recurring thorn in their sides if you continue past the end of LMoP). I LOVE this encounter, especially for first time players who are brand new to the game because 1.) They get to finally come face to face with the second half of the entire game's name for the first time, and 2.) They get to feel incredibly powerful for "defeating" this intelligent, deadly creature, even if it's only by scaring it off. They know they accomplished something big.
Love your ideas about story arcs and keeping a single villain in the crosshairs for the whole story. Unfortunately we've been playing "by the book" for a few weeks now and the party has gotten hints about both Thundertree AND the black spider. I was thinking about transitioning to Ice Spire Peak content right after this - since it is based out of Phandalin as well. Thinking maybe the dragon at Thunertree and the Dragon at IceSpire are one and the same. We can speed through (and make possible) the Thundertree content by saying that Druid is essentially just using the party as bait to get the dragon out of the tower. He can swoop in with some cool shapeshifting and powerful attacks to *just barely* keep the party from dying, and dragon flies off to lick its wounds, planting the seeds for it to rehouse somewhere else (icespire peak) later, and get back to the wave echo cave story line. Or maybe run them side by side with a random check the skies for dragon roll plaguing them wherever they go and get the dragonslayer sword as a reward at completion of the wave echo cave. Does it matter much if it's a green dragon instead of white dragon at icespire peak?
Sounds like a fun combination! I don't think it matters if you use a green or white dragon - the players won't mind. One thing I would caution against though is having the druid (or any NPC) jump in to save the day at any point - it might make the players feel like you're giving the cool heroic moments to the players rather than them.
Am about to run LMoP and is my first time as Dm. I want to run the dragón but yep im new right? But is it a bad Idea to, If my adventures finish the campaing, transition to Dragón of icespire peak and have the venomfang as a "we know were the dragon of is...oh wait it's a diferent dragon"?
I could not disagree more with Mr. Perkins. I like how E5 has all of these "tie-ins" to their other modules. They've done a lot of the footwork that most of us simply do not have time for. I do like how he wants to take things a step further but I'm the type of person who believes "more is more". The more groundwork laid by the writers of D&D the better for me. One can always modify it to what they like.
I like to run the Black spider as an agent of venomfang (venomfang is his patron on the surface, a vadar/palpatine relationship if you will.) Im also thinking of a situation similar to jarlaxle in that the black spider is seekeing to setup a surface empire, and offers the forge of spells to the dragon for his assistance. As green dragons always crave items of unique value and craftsmanship, what fits that better than the forge of spells? In this way it can still be run similarly to normal, just redirect back at the end after facing the black spider to facing his boss, the dragon. Additionally, the dragon may offer to let the players replace the black spider and rule the region at his side instead (for all you evil players out there)
What if instead of doppelgangers, you have the dragon shape shifting to get woven in and out and spy on the pcs. But you could also have the dragon be the reason why the black spider was eventually able to discover the cave as a grand plot to pit the pcs and spider brigade against one another + clear out the cave for himself (herself). Then if there's an encounter with the dragon early and he flees, he can reemerge after the cave is cleared kinda ambushing the party that emerges from the cave rested??? And alive. Too much,?
I liked thunder tree and don't think there's any reason to cut it. What made me really mad and stressed out about venom fang was there was no suggestions for how to roleplay him which leaves him as a no win encounter. I made venom fang weaker so they could defeat him but they ended up paying him a ton of gold to leave then killed the cultists. What I thought of now that my players are almost done with wave echo cave is venom fang should be an elder or adult dragon polymorphed as a younger dragon to throw off everyone. In my campaign he's going to come back because he watches over magical ore which is what I made is why the wave echo cave is important. Now he can polymorph into whatever he want to keep an eye on the characters now that they've cleaned out the caves.
Using this idea, I made the goblins work for Venomfang but ultimately planning to betray him. Grol wants the treasure to become an actual noble because he wants the cragnaw to achieve political power, then he learns it has the Forge of Spells inside and then he really wants it, but gets eaten by venomfang insted (or killed by the party if they storm Cragnaw Castle first)
My solution is to keep Thundertree out of LMoP completely and run it separately instead or insert it into Dragon of Icespire Peak from the Essentials Kit. It fits in much better there with just a little tweaking. You can also use the dragon cultists as a lead in to Rise of Tiamat, allowing you to skip Hoard of the Dragon Queen altogether.
Love this idea, and I had a very similar thought - as well as following up with Tiamat! Well played, sir! Did you end up going this route? Any insight on how it worked out?
You can still run Thundertree, and not run Venomfang ;) You can simplify the location by exchanging Venomfang with a Wyvern that was chased away from Wyvern Tor by the orcs. A MUCH more manageable challenge for players. You then exchange the dragon Cultists by x3-4 rogue Redbrand Ruffians that left their bandit ways for any reason and were heading off to Neverwinter. They saw the Wyvern flying and hunting and had the "brilliant" idea to kill the beast to harvest its poison - it should sell for a great price in the black market (~1,200gp)! They were not ready for all the Ash Zombies and Blights in Thundertree and now they have barricaded themselves helplessly in the last standing building. They might even be persuaded to help, or double cross the group and run away when they get the chance. There are 2 issues with this change: 1. small one: no hoard; but you can easily redistribute the non-gold loot in the various ruined buildings 2. big one: no fancy, shiny, scheming, evil dragon in your campaign that appears on the cover of the box. But hey, at least you do get a dragon (Wyverns are dragon lizards).
Oooh yeah, that's interesting! It's cool how you've married Wyvern Tor + Thundertree, which were both locations struggling for relevancy, in a way that improves both. I hadn't considered cutting the dragon without cutting Venomfang. But Venomfang is absolutely the most interesting part of the location.
Why not set the dragon fight after the end of the campaign a few months down the road when you are trying to rebuild the area. The people of the town of phandolin have started growing and are asking for help to clear the nearby town so there is room for the new settlers.
Ran this, and Venomfang overshadowed and the Druid derailed *exactly* as described here. Funnily enough youll have DMs follow this advice and the players will love it and go leave LMoP 4 more unconditional 5-star reviews.
I think LMOP deserves its 5-star reviews! Even though I make a lot of changes to the campaign, the only reason I can do that effectively is because the adventure is well written with a good structure. Maybe the only problem with the module is the way modules are; too much information, too many options - that's the way modules work for some reason.
personally, I'm trying to tweak the story so thunder tree comes at the end. upon success in phandalin sister garaeles brothers wife, rosemary, the herbalist, who hails from thundertree come to the party for advice and help dealing with a dragon. hopefully alloong w the next adventure to start and transition into tyranny of dragons. im real new to DnD and to DMing so im trying my best to keep up with the lore and make the store my own. its a lot of work i hope it all goes smoothly
We played dragons of stormwreck isle before lmop. Aidron completed his ritual and turned into a scary kind of hybrid young dragon who combined the spirits of all the dead dragons used in the ritual. He flew off and I'm planning on letting him resurface in Thundertree instead of Venomfang. I think he might become the Ultimate Big Bad for the overarching campaign that will continue after LMoP. Maybe I'll give him some world domination or tiamat awakaning ambitions 😊
I just ran Thundertree over the past two sessions. The final fight with Venomfang was one of the most fun and engaging battles I have run in a while. Every member was almost down and they were just able to beat it. Party of 5. I knew it was going to be a really hard fight. THEY knew it was an EXTREMELY hard fight. They planned, executed and the dice were in their favor. I do understand this can and often will be a TPK…. But man when I say it was epic. IT WAS EPIC. The dice told that story for my group. I will always love Thundertree for that.
How I ran it was that I wanted the party to face off against Glass-Staff at some point instead of just letting him get away, so I threw Venomfang in the bin and replaced him with Glass-staff, and made Thundertree the Redbrand's stronghold. And rather than being abandoned, there are still people living there, but Glass-Staff is holding the town hostage and forcing Reidoth to be a medic for the Redbrands in exchange for the people's safety. Sildar and Glass-Staff were adventuring buddies with Reidoth in the past, so Sildar points the party to recruit Reidoth after finding out Nezznar has poisoned Gundren, and Reidoth apparently has had plenty experience with Drow poison in the past.
I've been trying to decide what to do with Thundertree for my upcoming third run of LMoP (first time, we never used it, second time I used it later on). Now I'm thinking that I really like the idea that the entrance to the cave is in Thundertree. For one thing, the location of the cave in relation to Phandalin has always felt really amorphous and vague to me; this would give it a more definite location. Maybe Thundertree was founded centuries ago as, basically, a company town operated and owned by the collective that owned the mine. The mine was destroyed (maybe by orcish marauders, maybe by something they released within, I don't know) and the town fell to ruin. At some point, Venomfang was drawn here, possibly by his innate sense that treasure is nearby. Trouble is, he can't get into the cave; he's too big (or maybe he needs a key or tool of some kind to get in). (I'll note here too that I think I'd change the kind of dragon Venomfang is. Maybe make him a Young Black Dragon, or even a Young White Dragon, to make him a little less lethal - though still pretty tough! Might also reskin him to green, change the damage type back to poison, if I really wanted to keep the name Venomfang. Or, I might make it any color I like, and name him something cool, like Caiannoroth or Kargorog or Sharthaxis or something like that, I don't know) The way I run the game, the NPC running the Lionshield Coster is actually secretly the Black Spider, interacting with the party on a regular basis and hearing about their exploits (thereby keeping tabs on them). At some point (perhaps by saving Gundren), they'll learn that the cave is under Thundertree, and the Black Spider will somehow learn this, either from them or through an NPC that they tell. If they tell no one, maybe Gundren mentions it to her; he's a notorious talker! Now, everyone in the area knows there's a dragon in Thundertree, so she goes to treat with him; she tries to make a deal with the dragon. I haven't worked out what she can offer him yet, or how I'd determine whether or not the deal works out, or what she'd do if it doesn't, but I've got the wheels turning now. I definitely feel like the party should face down a dragon at some point, it's just a matter of how to implement it. My main issue with this plan is that it would mean that the dragon is not the final fight; he'd be guarding the entrance to the cave. I could have the dragon flee if the party gets him down to half HP, only to ambush them upon their exit of the cave, not sure. I'll be thinking about it. I'd probably scrap most of the enemies in Thundertree, and probably the druid too, in favor of maybe one or two more appropriate ones; like maybe some representatives of the Cragmaws whom the Black Spider has sent to negotiate with the dragon on her behalf. Anyone else have any other ideas?
Seems like you're cooking something good here! I'm about to re-run, and I'm thinking of somehow tying this dragon situation to the dragon in the last dungeon of Phandelver and Below.
My idea would be to potentially make the Black Spider and Venomfang work in tandem, as if the Black Spider were the final roadblock to facing off Venomfang, who had been deceiving everyone from the start (which is a green dragon's schtick anyway). I think it can work.
I'm currently running both LMoP and Dragon of Icespire Peak simultaneously for the same group. At my players request, because both campaigns take place in the same location and they're experienced players, the events of both campaigns occur simultaneously. Cryovain and Venomfang currently are about to start brawling with each other over hunting ground if my players don't kill one of them first. (They plan on killing both eventually so it doesn't fully matter but Cryovain will go down first as they're on their way to Wave Echo Cave now and plan to ascend the mountain after securing the spell forge. My party consists of a Wild Magic Sorcerer/toy maker and a Knowledge Cleric of Vecna. (They have allies to help out now that it's the endgame of the plot).
I’m running LMoP as a first time DM, and I’ve taken out Thundertree but left Venomfang so far. On the players travels to Phandalin, the cleric did a perception check, because she was looking out for bandits and other threats, and she got a nat 20. So I told her that way off in the distance, just above the canopy of Neverwinter Wood, she briefly sees the form of a young green dragon fly around and then quickly dip back into the trees. This was mostly to get the players excited, and it worked. They’re all very new, with one first timer, so to them it was the coolest thing that could have happened on the road lol. So I figured after teasing a dragon being around, he should show up somewhere even though I’d decided to get rid of Thundertree. So my plan is to have him trying to take Wave Echo Cave as his lair, and that being the obstacle that the Spider can’t get past when the players catch up with him there. I gave my cleric a sealed puzzlebox as a suggested McGuffin, but hadn’t decided what was in it yet. I’m thinking now it will be a gold dragon egg, that can either be offered to Venomfang in exchange for him leaving WEC or hatched in the Forge of Spells which would then claim the cave as the baby gold dragons lair, forcing VF to leave, and saving him as the Big Bad in a later campaign. The cultists will still be around, but more as a social faction of dragon groupies than bad guys. We’ll see what my players do though! As newbies they seem somewhat keen to keep on the rails, so hopefully things pan out ok and they don’t all decide to just fight the dragon by themselves in the end lol.
I used your idea of the puzzle box (amazing btw) and gave it the power of disable the “magic barrier” that has the Wave Echo Cave. Black Spider took it so my players went to Reidoth who has been studying that box for years and was able to recreate its power and put it into an apple tree seed, making magic apples! But he ask them if they could help him with the dragon first (without killing him) and with Iarno who previously escaped and was now creating another faction there. My players loved this bc earlier when they were talking to Daran Edermath (the one that grows apple trees) they got the impression that he was in love with Reidoth before he went out to Thundertree to study that box, which I confirmed later through his adoptive daughter. They’re now working on reunite them 😂🧡🧡
My group had bad luck at level 3 as VF went first and did the breath. They ran out of there like the end of the Benny Hill Show. After they beat Black Spider at late level 4, they immediately went back to ambush Venomfang. Got a surprise round and utilized climbing/flying to cut off his escape out the roof, and he was dead in 2.5 rounds.
I plan to run LMOP into the essentials kit campaign, Dragon of Icespire Peak, and it’s subsequent expansions. I’m going to homebrew a little bit and take inspiration from the Tyranny of Dragons and make the Dragons the big deal. I envision Thunder Tree as a teaser of the things to come after LMOP is the adventuring parties origin story. Venomfang is going to drop some cryptic hints.
What I did is put some information that would eventually lead the party to discovering where Gundren was being held since my party weren't finding him. So then the party went to Thundertree to retrieve the information, but the dragon was gone so it ended up being more of a stealth session/racing against when Venomfang came back. We've now completed that book and I plan on expanding Thundertree's use and bringing Venomfang in fully later.
My 3 level 4 players actually bodied the dragon. Albeit they played it very well. They convinced Reidoth to join, and he just did so much damage when I transformed him into a boar. Then the breath, our Battle Smith artificer used their steel defender to close the mouth of the dragon while it was charging, taking most of the damage since he only managed to close it half. But the steel defender was immune to poison so no real damage done. After getting it to half HP they kept attacking, the monk even managed to jump on top of it and ride it in mid-air, killing it after a few rounds and sending it down. They were definitely lucky with their rolls, but they used everything in their arsenal to kill it, which I think is what the young dragon was meant for. It's the role of the players to give everything they got in these kinds of encounters, and it's the roll of the DM to make sure it feels both challenging and fair. Story-wise, I'd probably remove the hook from Phandalin to go visit Reidoth in Thundertree. My players only went to thundertree because of the loot, making the experience feel more like "we chose this" instead of "we need to do this to progress the story". This makes it feel a lot more natural.
All valid points on why not to include Thundertree but I plan on using LMoP as a stepping stone into the Red Hand of Doom campaign. Venomfang, the cultists and the hobgoblins more than anything in LMoP really set the stage for RHoD.
I'm about to run this campaign, I've chosen to have venomfang as a dragon the puzzle box is stolen from by gundran, his brothers, sildar and the players in the prologue. He's sleeping to begin with and so taken by surprise and overwhelmed. But the black spider still shows up after and is able to speak with the dragon and leaves some of his lackeys as the cultists to serve the dragon and help him heal and sooth his ego. Venomfang is a VERY young dragon in this and has been humbled and injured just enough that he stays in thundertree. When the party faces him again with the help of the druid he flies off and is not seen again. If we keep playing together then 2 campaigns from now I'll have him be the surprise BBEG who was behind many horrors they see in the next 2 campaigns all as a way to slowly increase his confidence and power to allow him to come into his own and finally get revenge. Part of his plan will be to destroy the party, phandelver and gundran etc years later. Wish me luck!
I've run Lost Mines twice now, and am getting ready to run it again, and here's what I can say about Thundertree. I agree that it doesn't really make sense for it to be included except for the fact "dragon" should be included with the dungeon, but my players reacted to it in 2 different ways. The first group had a blast fighting the dragon, and didn't have any real struggle in the fight probably because I didn't really use the breath attack or something else made things easier for them. My other group never went to Thundertree, but then got EXTREMELY disappointed when they heard that there was a dragon there and to this day some of them still wish they went. While it should be important for Gundren to be a part, the book as written not only has a heavy chance for Gundren to die, but there is also the chance that they don't find the map either and leave the castle, stuck with where to go. So that leaves the other two paths of searching out Reidoth for the location, or asking Agatha where it is with their one question (which can also circumvent things). I do like the suggestions about focusing the game around Venomfang instead, but I'm just gonna ask the players what they want to do before we start. If they choose to still play the game as written, then I'm just going to change the cultists in there to dopplegangers from the Black Spider trying to get Venomfang as an ally to eventually guard the cave after it's under control, with when he takes a third of his health to start calling for a truce and to instead turn on the Black Spider (with Venomfang planning to claim the mine for himself in the end.) But the biggest struggle I had as a new dm was realizing that I could shift around and change content, so I know how messing with things is very daunting for a new dm.
Possible fix for the goblins, don't know if it's been said already, but make them Kobolds! Then they can be the security forces of Venomfang. Maybe he had the Kobolds kidnaps Gundren so that the secret of the forge is well...kept secret.
Hey why not just keep lost mines as it is. Scratch Thunder tree and just move venomfang. Let him polymorph into a human to move around. Than just use him in place of the black spider. Legit just do exactly as he suggests with the black spider and just replace her with a female green dragon that has shapeshifted and is using the groups to her advantage. Green dragons are massively intelligent, so why not give her minions. Could still use black spider as a Lieutenant and throw her in to get the puzzle box.
You would still need to foreshadow her as a dragon, because if she just turns into a dragon in the final encounter randomly, that wouldn't be any kind of payoff.
I want to have a dragon appear somewhere in the campaign but I agree that this is not the best place to put one while still maintaining the black spider as the villain. I’ve decided that the guardian of the forge of spells is going to be a dragon, and the puzzle box will contain something (still undecided on what) will have draconic writing engraved on it. One of my players is playing a dragonborn, so this would be a really neat way to include their character.
That's a good idea! Just remember to foreshadow the dragon :) I'm looking into a way to make Thundertree relevant to The Shattered Obelisk, because there's a dragon in that last dungeon of that campaign. Still working on it though!
I agree I shouldn't include Thundertree, BUT we ran with the premade characters and my fighter is really invested in making Thundertree great again because that's his background, so the party went to Thundertree when I thought they would go to Cragmaw castle aand... here I am :D
This idea may sound a little insane, but what if at the end of the Wave echo cave, the Black Spider BECOMES a dragon!? I feel like since the cover image has a dragon, you should at least include one somehow.
I homebrewed my setting to include a city where dragons and humans live alongside one another in a polite, if tense, peace and Venomfang is a young kid dragon who ran away from home because he heard one too many stories about the dragons of old and wanted to be big and scary like them. If the party goes to Thundertree, they'll find the cultists trying to capture the young dragon, and then in swoops Big Mama, who's been searching far and wide for her lost son. I hope for this to be a moment where the party can parley with the dragons so that i can seed the main plot (aka Dragonlance). Might be a bit of a stretch, but it's what I'm working with lol.
next week I start my LMoP campaign. I choose the Dragon to be the BBG and the Black Spider and Iarno to be the same person, but is the Dragon who play the cards.
But the main reason is because my players are old friends who always wanted to play rpg during our high school, but always stop at character creation. And now, at age of 30 we finally get together to actually play. They need a Dragon.
Yep! That's a good solution, but you've still gotta do the legwork to signpost her true nature so it doesn't seem like a random transformation in the moment.
Planning to run phandelver, my idea for this is to include it after wave echo with a Newley made dungeon in mount hotnew, the new plot is that after wave echo cave collapsed the human wizards hit the key for the mine (a firebrand jewel in my version) within the mountain under the eye of a red dragon who wants it back. They are introduced after wave echo cave as the true final boss.
im so glad you made this video idk if you still read this but heres what i got planned for my adventure. so i decided to make the black spider a wyrmkeeper “priestest of tiamat” and the wave echo cave holds a catalyst she needs to attempt become a dragon her self. then leading it in to tyranny of dragons when the hard back comes out in a few days. what do you think about merging the black spider and the cult of dragons to go in to hoard of the dragon queen where phandahlin is in flames not greenist
Love these videos! Been watching them multiple times as I prepare for Lost Mines. The way I'm planning on running Thundertree / Venomfang is to have him be the evil mastermind behind everything. Nezzar was expelled from the underworld for failing a trial of Lolth, became a Drider, and was hiding out in the tower at Thundertree. VF found him, convinced him to go find the lost Wave Echo Cave / Forge of Spells to get back into Lolth's good graces. The players find him in Thundertree, but they have the puzzle box and he knows it so he doesn't fight them. He WANTS them to go to the cave and unlock the forge of spells. After the final battle with Nezzar, they leave the cave and he swoops down and fights them. All of them are his pawns... At least, that's what I'm planning. Who knows what'll happen :)
Nezzar is the pedestrian form of venom Fang that way when they finally corner nezzar and they "win" polymorph is lost and now they fight the dragon form
Hey! Been watching all of your LMoP guide videos and they’ve been very helpful since I want to try my hand at being a DM. That aside I have an idea or two about how to make Venomfang the BBG… or rather how to modify the goblins, orcs, and other minions. I’m sure someone suggested before because it seems obvious, but I’m going to say it anyway: Replace the goblins and orcs with kobolds. They are dragon fanatics and even think being eaten by a dragon is the best thing that could happen to them. And also replace some of the other creatures like hoggoblins with dragon cultists. Now normally this area is filled with orcs and goblins, but you could say that they were driven up into the mountains by the followers of Venomfang. SPOILERS FOR ICESPIRE PEAK BELOW! This could also be a good hook in case you plan on running Dragon of Icespire Peak right after this; they orcs just had to deal with a green dragon chasing them of of their homes and into the mountains, and NOW they have to deal with a white dragon driving them out of their new homes and back down into the lower lands which have been ransacked by the kobolds and/or destroyed by the party. This will make them want to get stronger so they can’t be pushed around anymore… so they turn Talos the God of storms. Now you have an explanation for all the orc worshiping Talos and having to deal with them while the party is trying to deal with the new white dragon.
@@heyitsMattyP Thank you! And yeah it does take leg work but it’s doable. In theory you could also use this as an excuse to make the spell forge work in your game since kobolds are quite a bit better with tinkering, repairing, forging, and magic them goblins and orcs. So if/when the players defeat this new foe and you all agree to continue exploring the sword coast they have a place they can go to to forge their own magic gear at a MUCH faster rate then what the normal rules say. I’m not a DM yet but I’m guessing that players will be absolutely love the idea of making their own stuff then just getting handed some “random” gear they happened to find while dungeons diving.
I think you could rework Venomfang to be the main villain and STILL have Nezznar (Nezzar) in the campaign. Reason for taking Gundren? Simple. The Drow needs the forge of spells in order to fight the dragon or to at least protect themselves from the dragon. That's why the alliance forms. Grol wants the dragon gone, too. A very ends justify the means mentality. Sacrifice the few to save the many from this dragon. Even at the cost of the Rockseeker brothers. Maybe this makes the players not kill the black spider, but maybe the black spider serving as a red herring isn't a terrible thing. Look at red herring villains from media in the past like Snape (Glassstaff) among others.
Even then, I think we'd end up just diluting both villains. The screen time we can give the villain interacting with the heroes, the better, and that task becomes harder by adding an extra tier of baddie
@@heyitsMattyP I can definitely agree with that. It's just something that I think is an option if you needed to retcon it because the party deals with Black Spider too early, but you wouldn't have included the dragon otherwise. Just a spitball idea, considering if they dealt with the Black Spider early, the only other boss fight in the campaign as written that gives a similar or harder challenge is the dragon. And if the party could kill the Spider before wave echo cave (level 4) then maybe a dragon at level 4-5 isn't too hard either with that logic? But I agree, the dragon takes away a lot and I wouldn't use it if I didn't need to.
I'm late to the party, but here's my 2 cents: At the end of the day, LMoP is basically a really good first campaign for the "Dungeons & Dragons" RPG. As such, it has (and should have) a goal to present to the players a little bit of everything a D&D game can have... so there are lots of monsters, several enemies, some interesting locations, some dungeons, some mystery... and A DRAGON. It's even on the name of the system.
Yeah, I think it would be important to give players that classic D&D experience of fighting a dragon. My issue is more of a cost-benefit problem with how much effort I think it would take to integrate the dragon into the story in a way that fits my vision of the adventure. But there's every chance that fighting a dragon is just SO RAD that it wouldn't matter if it felt kind of janky.
@@heyitsMattyP And maybe, as someone else pointed out, it could be handled as a "one shot" adventure AFTER the wave echo cave ends. I think that's what I'll do with my current players lol
I have made venomfang a green dragon finding its footing. Thundertree is just Reidloth, cultists trying to worship venomfang, and the deagon himself. The orcs at wyvern Tor are not a raiding party, but the son of a chieftan and his retinue and an Advisor. The chiefling wanting to prove himself by killing a young dragon. Loading up to it they hold forced gladiatorial battles to prove their might and wanting allies and so on. The players can be allies with them if they play their cards right. At thundertree, reidloth will warn the players not to attack because a dragon is too much, but the cultists can be Roleplayed with… who knows how that will go. Because the cultists cant approach venomfang. He is a green dragon and attracts nature, so some giant spiders crawls around his tower. And so on.. :) Just a big side quest… but (!) the spiders henchmen… a drow rogue and a doppleganger have tried to recruit the orcs to their cause. The orcs will mention them so the players can see the breadcrumbs. Also… the Spellforge is actually a soulforge connected to a demonlord. Only Nezzar knows how to use it safely and will try and recruit the players with promises of powerful magical weapons. Gundrun has mcguffin nezzar needs to complete his ritual. Although Gundrun left it with his brothers who are hiding before he got caught. And he is being tortured at cragmaw so the spider can find the mcguffin. Also… glasstaff is a necromancer like nezzar and has joined him to gain power he couldnt get otherwise since he needed to neglect some moral choices when practising magic in neverwinter. I changed a lot… :P But it seems somewhat more cohesive to me.
