I heard a really good quote for this a while back: "A good strong female character is a good character who happens to be a woman, not a character who is strong because they are a woman"
Honestly, if we just rephrased “Strong Female Characters” as “Compelling Female Characters” I think we would eliminate a lot of the confusion right off the bat.
In the west where women have all protection and Providence afforded to them ( apparently) their is no need to be physically strong or look strong .Right ?we should be these willowy , insipid petite creatures easily malleable and compliant . Look at the news of Fantastic four the lady character embodied a of that . Reality chumps fantasy here too I'm afraid
I like to think Natasha's flaw of not being able to forgive herself and her desire for redemption is the reason why she decided to sacrifice herself in endgame. It makes sense that she would gladly die to help save half of the universe as she still probably thinks her ledger is red and she choose to wipe off all that blood, using her own.
I think that is a huge part of her reason. Another part was that she loved Hawkeye and wanted him to have the chance to go back to his family, and for him to have the chance of wiping the red off his ledger.
Not to mention, part of her made family is gone. Althought she won't see them come back, she knows they''ll get their lives again. So her stakes become higher and makes us love her more. Because it's mentioned in endgame that her family is practically her spy family and the avengers. That's even more incredible and makes sense for her alongside her final redemption move.
For some reason, women with a caring heart and motherly instincts seem to be looked at as weak, because I hardly ever see "strong female characters" with those traits. One of the reasons Galadriel (the original galadriel) left such an impact in such short screen time is because she is so comforting and motherly while also being one of the most powerful people in middle earth
I'm gonna call this one out, because The STRONGEST female characters were exactly that BECAUSE of their motherly instincts. Ripley from Aliens is a perfect example of this. She so tender and thoughtful with Newt and she turns into a ball of psychotic murderous rage when Newt is taken. She's downright terrifying. Even the men left alive know better than to try and talk her out of it despite the fact that everything is about to explode. Hell itself cannot dissuade her once she goes full mama bear. Consider another example that of Mrs. Brisby in the Secret of Nimh. Oh sure she comes across as very traditionally feminine, quiet, reserved, cautious, maybe even weak, but the film repeatedly demonstrates how brave and hardy she really is. She is REALLY tough and she will do anything, absolutely anything to protect her kids and multiple times she throws herself into harm's way. Truth be told you can go down the list for well written, strong women, and often (not always) them being a mother is a key component of that strength. I think the problem is we as audiences have come to believe that schlocky Action Hero Man(tm) traits are what constitutes "strong" and we forget that "strong" is actually a lot of things and yes, by and large most women aren't as "strong" physically as men so feminine strength looks different. It usually comes in the form of moral courage and bravery and the willingness to be self sacrificing, possibly against long odds because SOMEONE must stand up to evil to save those who cannot save themselves. And the mama bear who acts on passion and love without thought for her own safety of well being...is that not a perfect representation of heroic action? Going into a fight you KNOW you can't win physically... that's BRAVE, that's true bravery. And I think audiences are smart enough to notice it when it's written right.
@@Karachi12234 literally no culture surviving today has ever thought this. Motherhood is revered and sacred in every culture. It is the absolute distillation of feminity. And it is protected above all else.
Tolkien knew what he was doing. In WW2 women were behind the lines as nurses healing the wounded. You can imagine how strong those women were to be there supporting the men and what an effect it must have had on them. I think Tolkien knew the impact a motherly touch has and included it in his novel. They didn't have to fight but they were there.
It's weird because people SAY feminine traits are undervalued... despite CONSTANT celebration of them. And not just in the modern world. Look throughout history and see it replete with celebrations of women and femininity and ESPECIALLY motherhood. The problem is that modern activists started bashing masculine traits, but ALSO buying into the idea that these traits are superior (rather than COMPLEMENTARY) So, writers are chosen to pander to these ideas. Women MUST be strong stoic flawless heroes to avoid implying that women are weak, while men are (rightly) displayed with greater emotional range but (wrongly) often demeaned or reduced to irrelevance or stereotype. Even a man displaying traditionally positive masculine virtues can be attacked as toxic these days, which is unfortunate (and I speak as a quite non-traditional man. I am emotional, caring and many of my preferences are seen as feminine. I like cats, I like to read and bake, I like to dance and I'm not into sports or drinking culture. But I don't think a sport loving, car driving fisherman who prefers to remain stoic is a bad or toxic man... funny that)
something i’ve always noticed is that “strong female characters” entire personality are just stereotypical toxic male traits. a strong female character should be a strong character first, female second.
It's a problem across all minority characters with agenda baiting Hollywood. Potentially great characters get sidelined, underutilized, or are made gross stereotypes, making their minority status their entire personality. It's the lowest form of tokenism & isn't representative of any group. As I keep saying, woke sjw types are just as bigoted as their right-wing counterparts, they're just 2 heads to same disgusting coin.
yeah, I find it ironic that so many of these people that support these types of characters and create them always go on and on about hating men and belittling them as much as possible and yelling "the patriarchy" and "toxic masculinity" every time something doesn't go their way, but yet they are the ones that are trying to mimic all the toxic behaviors they blame men for and try to spin it as a form of "empowerment" for themselves. they want to be the very thing they hate and project onto others.
In an interview with Game of Thrones writer George R R Martin, the interviewer asked “I noticed you write women really well and really different, where does that come from?” His answer was “You know, I’ve always considered women to be people.” Writer’s should try to start with that.
Great point! One of the harms of identity politics -- especially in fiction -- is that it tends to obscure the common humanity of people. Ironically, it often leads to more stereotyping of characters rather than less. One of the things I dislike about Hollywood's weird conception of "strong female characters" is they seem to suffer from toxic masculinity but in a female body. (And then you get a patronizing lecture on top of it.)☹
These woke writers shud really learn from the people who made Annihilation 2018. The lead characters are a grup of women but the script doesn’t make a big deal out of it
"I think many viewers make the mistake of blaming actors for failing to capture their heart, when really that was the screenwriter's job." THANK you SO much for pointing this out! Another point people miss is that, if a performance seems cold or unengaging, that's the director's call - actors can generally deliver many diferent takes on a given scene, but ultimately, it's the director who decides what emotion they want the scene to portray!
Can't wait to see what Abbie says, but I personally think Nat deserves the hype. She proved herself even before she got her own film. Captain Marvel has some work to do.
Elle Woods from 'Legally Blonde' is another example of a strong female lead---and she doesn't throw a single punch in the entire movie to prove it. She suffers initial heartbreak, struggles with her own proclivities and the preconceived notions held by others of her---as well as herself---and actively studies and works hard to earn a career for herself in criminal law. She originally does so to impress and win the affections of a man who does not reciprocate her efforts, but later uses what she learned and the discipline she developed to instead better her _own_ life. In the end, she solves a murder case thanks to her hard work AND with some crucial help from her feminine knowledge to prove the innocence of her client.
i was saying this to my friend a couple weeks ago. elle woods is a perfect strong female character that’s actually inspiring but nobody acknowledges it bc she’s “too girly” and isn’t physically seen as strong
And she does all of that while maintaining and creating positive relationships with a romantic partner and with everyone else around her. She builds up the women in her life and, in general, makes everyone around her feel good just by being herself unapologetically.
As I a guy, I actually love watching Legally Blonde because Elle is a genuine character that grows in the path of pursuing her dream. The dream later becomes obvious to her that it has no value. So, she finishes her her commitment to law school and is able to serve her friend by getting her dog back and solves a murder case. It's actually a believable plot as ridiculous as the movie may be.
I actually sincerely think Cinderella is a strong female character. She's growing up in a horrible situation, bereaved of both parents who loved her, abused by those she lives with....and she remains positive, tries her best to do what's asked of her, and when she gets out of there (depending on what version you read) she doesn't even exact revenge. Honestly, that's an incredible human being. I hate when people cite Cinderella as a "weak woman" example. She's not. She's tougher than most.
I think the 2015 Disney film actually did justice to Cinderella's character, given the time period and her social status. Her sticking to the "Be kind and have courage" motto is strength in my opinion.
@@vi8799 So, do you hold Luke Skywalker to the same standard then? Did he blow up the first Death Star by himself? No. He had lots of help and had it not been for the help he got, he couldn't have solved anything. Did he rescue his friends from Darth Vader in Empire? No. He ended up getting his hand chopped off and having to be helped by Leia. He had help rescuing Han. In RotJ he would've been killed by the emperor had Darth Vader not saved him. In every instance, he had help. Given the world Cinderella lived in, she did what was possible for her and my hat off to the people who don't break their world in order to have the character "solve" the story problem. Breaking your world in order to make the character a winner is what leads to poorly written female characters.
exactly, please live thorugh a lifetime of narcissistic abuse and bullying, and probably getting fed less then the rest, stay positive and cute, sing with the animals, get your prince, and then come and say that Cinderella is weak!!!!!! hahahahaha. people are so dumb. Cinderella is queen
There’s one line in Little Women that stands out to me when I think of the erasure of femininity within the trope of strong female characters. Meg to Jo about wanting a family instead of an acting career: “Just because my dreams are different than yours doesn't mean they're unimportant.” They’re each strong characters in the true sense of the meaning.
I... don't think it quite works that way. A character's gender should affect who they are and you are allowed to prefer them being one way over the other.
Sometimes actions speak louder than words. If the story has to constantly remind you that "this female character is strong" then they instantly reduce your expectations because they're basically a Mary Sue. They just punch their way through any situation making the stakes nonexistent. This is why I love female characters from the X-Men franchise. Because they're just as flawed as they are powerful. Rogue is more than physically capable to take on any villain but her biggest weakness is her primary power. She has to deal with feeling ostracized from being in a physically intimate relationship. She can't punch her way into that. So readers are always interested in how she's gonna overcome that obstacle.
Rogue is a great example because she has to constantly struggle with the fact that her strength is literally someone else's, even her ability to fly (in the earlier stuff). More so when she takes on the personality traits of others as well. So she has to constantly wonder who she is at basically every moment, because she could just be an amalgamation of the people she siphoned power from.
RANDOM BLACK GAMER - TRANSFORMERS The fact that stories have to constantly prove it or beat around the bush of it just shows that the writers simply have no real reason for change and a dynamic character, solely just trying to take any empowerment movement and leech off of the reception.
@k o a l OP mentioned the entire franchise, not just the movie trilogy, so they are including comics and TV shows in their assessment. They even mention "readers" so they might be talking only about the comics. I don't disagree though... Hell, it's smart to not use x-men the last stand for any advice on character writing. Man, woman, juggernaut, it was full of walking punch lines who had no real depth beyond that, and who only told rather than showed basically anything- including a major character death of all things.
I feel it just shows how Hollywood and film industry view Strong female character as. For example, MCU already has a strong female character with nuances who is well-loved from the beginning. But they seemed to not view Black Widow as one because instead of pushing for her own movie or developing her further, they doubled down on creating a new character who is 'the strong female character' and promoted Captain Marvel as if she was the first of ones. The writers and creators also love to erase any trace of feminity or feminine touch from current strong female characters. They always have to be beating and fighting everyone else and one upping them (I mean an actual strong and confident person wouldn't feel the need to keep proving and reminding people that they are strong and confident). There is no strength that comes from softness, resilience, feminity. If the audiences haven't been told again and again that the character is 'strong female character', they could easily be another brute male leads from the bygone era.
@@mahogara Yeah, I know right? I mean basic biology states that women are generally weaker than men, and that doesn't mean that women should be portrayed as horribly weak, but straining to the other side of the spectrum to near demigod-like strength and ability is simply just a double standard, but then again, if people think you don't agree with them, you are being dogmatically opposed, when in reality they are the ones dealing in unjust absolutes.
My go to line for this type of discussion is: "Courage is not about never being scared. It's about being scared but doing what you have to do, anyway."
Wanda and Loki are perfect examples, in my opinion. They have strength in mind, emotion, + have an actual personality. They have deep flaws, but they also have many favorable/surprising traits. Also, they had things and people to lose and actually lost it in the movie rather than save it at the very last minute.
I'm biased but I feel the same for Thor. He started as a self entitled God who would start a fight just because. He had to learn through losing his power that he needed to be humble. He is a strong willed character but then losing so many people really screwed with him. Then after he killed thanos he lost his fighting spirit and faced serious depression and surviors guilt. He developed into a very caring leader( yes I believe he should've led asgard after endgame), and he wouldn't just fight to fight anymore. He learned to forgive Loki because at the end of the day they're brothers. Even when he was fat and depressed when he finally got mjolnir back ,the look on his face was.."I'm still worthy, I'm not a loser, and I can still fight for my friends". Pretty interesting for "I like this drink..ANOTHER"
@@taureansun1501 um, no? you seem to not have watched the show but she literally created a fake town and a fake family, basically reviving her dead husband through her powers and trapped a town with people, brainwashing them
@@oreo_.taylorsversion yes I did wasnt her personality then basically I want a husband and children? I mean it was handled with more tact and grace in the show as compared to the movie but that's basically Wanda's entire life motivation. Her entire drive to be a mom. Which is cool and all but then they demonstrate her going crazy and killing other people just because she cant have what she wants which feeds inti the woman is too emotional or woman can handle power tropes. And only to kill her off in the end and leave it "ambigious" it's just sooo irritating just how left field they have turned the charchter.
Carol does have a flaw, the writers just don’t treat it like it’s a flaw. She’s extremely reckless and she does things her own way even if it puts herself and/or other people around her in danger. Instead of acknowledging that these are weaknesses, the film’s script either treats these negative traits as 100% positive or, in the case of the scene where Carol is captured and escapes with little to no difficulty, just gloss over the fact that she put herself in that situation.
And even in the comics she's like that, such as when she didn't want to face her alcoholism and even caused a lot of problems before she got the help she needed, along with other times her recklessness got her in hot water, but she would usual be able to bounce back and learn, even if it usually didn't go so well (see Civil War II).
She could have been treated like vegeta she can be arrogant and have a massive ego because of her new powers. She can be called out for her superiority complex/shity attitude or even have a villain taunt her due to the death and destruction she causes. Carol can take those lessons to heart and learn to be down to earth and be human again
another female character i love in marvel is nebula. she went from being the most absolute loyal daughter of thanos, to eventually recognizing her bond with gamora, then finally rebelling against thanos and joining the forces of the avengers.
"You need to be flawless to be strong. You can't ask for help. You can't show emotions." I believe this is exactly what our society has been doing to men which has made a lot of them suffer. Bringing the exact same toxicity to women is not "empowering" anyone 😮💨
I'm going to have to disagree. As a woman you probably have a very different view, but for men it doesn't matter if you ask for help; Our problems are laughed at or ignored. That's why we don't *bother* asking for help as we know we won't get it. From male suicides being far higher to lower and lower enrollment of men in higher education, these are problems that are decades old but commonly ignored. At best we get some attention for abuse cases, but mostly because it affects both males and females. If it impacts just males, it's simply pretended it doesn't exist or doesn't get any attention. In the same way we can show emotions just fine, but at an early age we learn (ironically mostly from girls) that showing your emotions will have those used against you. Just look at how society (though mostly women) react to incels. They're seen as pathetic, they're neither getting help nor sympathy from most places. The only groups that have any kind of sympathy for them are MGTOW and such. So I disagree with you on the basis that it's not about asking for help or showing emotions. It's that we know doing that would either have no effect or be used against us. That's what makes most men suffer.
@@ym5891 I'm a woman, and I agree. Even to me, who strongly believes men should show emotions, when a man starts to cry, it feels so weird. I think that's why in movies, when men cry, it's heartbreaking to see and hear them. I'm sorry you men have to go throught this, it's not fair.
@@ym5891Well, a lot of incels, as you said with most men, will refuse help, but what you didn’t mention is that they think they’re right, and they think women owe them for their existence in the universe, so you’re not quite right about the rest of that part. Everyone that has an issue being toxic needs to listen to criticism and actually fix it themselves, but I guess they could be told to get help in better ways. But the male toxicity has been worked on for ages, and bringing male toxicity to women without fixing other toxicities against women is just making more toxicity for women all around and more impossible expectations. Even women are criticized for their emotions, saying they’re “irrational” for having any, I guess it’s just not explicitly said so it seems better. For me it stops feeling like a sexism thing and more of a controlling thing and women are just easier to control in some aspects thanks to the way society is made.
@@astraamarante6233 A lot of the characteristics of incels universally condemned by almost everybody are present everywhere in society and are being ignored in those areas. The idea you are owed things for simply existing is toxic and always will be. We expect incels to have some self accountability and focus on bettering themselves rather than blaming everyone else but strangely enough don't seem to expect that out of anyone else.
I read a post once that said some thing along the lines of “I wish female characters didn't have to have their sweetness and kindness and love beaten out of them and have it called strength.” and that has really stuck with me ever since I read it. I wish more female protagonists were allowed to be strong and have emotions and be capable of kindness and love all at the same time, for them to be allowed to be smart but loving all at the same time. I am tired of the reused trope of the intelligent yet cold female protagonist. But overall I am tired of the new (now cliche) trope of making femininity something that you should get rid of if you want to be strong.
Another thing that pisses me off when it comes to female characters is making men weak and dumb so that the woman looks even better by comparison. One day my sister said something interesting: "If they hate sooooo much women who are not as strong as men, why do they have to bring men down to build women up? Wouldn't that be saying it is sexism to basically say 'women can only be strong and intelligent if men look dumb and weak', i mean... if i said it out loud they would call me mysogynist".
Never heard this quote before. But it rings so true. Allow me to add a quote as well. "You know, whenever someone draws attention to the 'breaking of gender roles,' it ultimately undermines the concept of gender equality by implying that this is an exception and not the status quo." Same rings true in movies with "strong female characters." They're always hyped up as if they're revolutionary and new, all the while ignoring the badass females that have been in movies since at least 1986 (Vasquez alien). The "strong female characters" in modern America don't take inspiration from those that came before. They pretend they don't exist to pretend to be innovative.
Mulan (from the animated movie, not the dreadful live action reboot) is probably my favourite female character. She loved her family so much that she took her fathers place even though she was completely out of her depth. Then she put in the effort and determination to improve so much that she became a hero & a strong female character, those are lessons that are admirable. It is because she actually faced adversity unlike Captain Marvel that she was able to grow as a warrior and a person.
The animated Mulan vs live-action Mulan is the perfect example for this topic. One is a character with flaws but with a strong emotional desire and live for her family, the other is a perfect Mary Sue from birth with little to no emotion.
One thing I hate about strong female characters is how some people will say “finally, a strong female character” no matter how badly written their character actually is. When she finished watching Captain Marvel, my mother was immediately talking about how strong she is, because that really is the only thing that Captain Marvel has, Strength. People who think that, to make a real strong female character, all they need is be physically powerful are stupid.
I hate when people forget history of strong female caracters like it's brend new. From Joan of Arc, Ellen Ripley, Sarah Connor and most female caracter in Games of thrones.
@@moolahfornothing1650 I never heard from anyone, that they liked abigail. And Sadie is very funny. Also she has a lot of internal struggles and feels emotions. I can understand why people like her.
Cap Marvel also has integrity, loyalty, intelligence and a likable playfulness that you don’t usually see in adults. All those positive traits help make strong female leads so how do you mean she only has physical strength?
I think another of Natasha's flaws that we see in Avengers is that she is a solo agent who has a need to be in control of situations. She was calm and efficient during her "interrogation" with the Russians because she knew everything was going the way she wanted and that she could take them all down if things went wrong, but she got nervous when she was told that she was bringing in "the Big Guy" because she wasn't sure she could handle the situation if Banner turned into the Hulk. It's never stated, but I think she grows to become more comfortable with chaotic situations because she grew to trust her team, and their collective ability to solve problems.
This somewhat reminds me of Violet from Violet Evergarden, where the character starts as a stoic, emotionless, ex-soldier. Yet, within the series, we see how she grew to know her own emotions and comes to terms with them. It all starts with a simple phrase, "I Want To Know What I Love You Means"
Really man!!!! She is the example of a good and strong female character. Writers should take inspiration from her character and learn how to write a character which is both strong yet not flawless.
Tbh I felt like the stories of all the side-characters (clients of Violet) were way more compelling than Violet's own arc 🤔 But overall I agree it was bittersweet to see her grow into a decent human being
"Show me a person who is prideful, arogant and constantly boasting about their strengths and I'll show you a person who is deeply insecure" ... Thor in his 1st solo movie 😁. He came a long way from that one.
Exactly, the difference between the first Thor and Captain Marvel is that Thor's boastful demeanor, reckless behavior and eagerness to inflict violence are shown as character flaws that need to be overcome in order for him to be ''worthy'' of regaining his powers.
@@SkurtavusGrodolfus I always tell this to people who stan captain marvel. Yeah she's bad now, but she has *potential* , I want to see captain marvel go through a character arc like thor's, where she learns to be humble and works on some of her flaws. I really hope this is what happens, and that she doesn't just stay as a "badass asshole" forever.
I think a lot of people undermine the quiet strength of Snow White and Cinderella. Their strengths come from making the best of a bad situation, thus taking away the power from their abusers.
Totally true. It takes an insane amount of strength to remain positive and hopeful in uncontrollably bad situations. They also serve the purpose of connecting with people who are actually in "damsel in distress" situations. They help cover ALL bases.
Indeed. There’s also Wendy from Peter Pan, Anastasia from Anastasia, Mrs Brisby from The Secrets of Nimh, Alice from Alice in Wonderland, and arguably the three good fairies from Sleeping Beauty. All of whom have quiet feminine strengths which show them to be competent at what they each do: solving their problems without resorting to brute force while caring for those in need and/or assisting heroes on their journeys, i.e., displaying femininity, and whose respective appearances came before the Disney Renaissance era, when women became increasingly portrayed as bad-assess (although I like the ones from that era all the same). Back in the Golden age, moral lessons, not “strong female characters” were the focus of films. People can say what they like about pre-Renaissance-era films being sexist towards women being made to be “damsels in distress” and doing them a “disservice”, though I think they’ve forgotten what makes women attractive as both characters and people: tender but otherwise (mentally) strong femininity. There’s a huge difference between feminism and femininity: one has people (such as Brie) erroneously assume men are predatory oppressors who love silencing others while concurrently making so many unwitting men (and conservatively minded women) suffer dearly, an ideology I remain disgusted with. The other has women evince classical feminine traits such as nurture and vulnerability, which naturally make them endearing.
I know. Snow white and Cinderella remained good-hearted whilst enduring abuse for years. That is true inner strength. That is a strong female character.
@@cameronis8089 I really love Alice in Alice in Wonderland. The story has character development from a middle-class girl to a warrior, from someone who just want to go home to someone who invest her feeling into people in Wonderland and ready ro fight for their freedom. That story is just so good.
Back when I made (and over the years, further developed) my first DnD character, I had fun giving her the "can't ask for help", "can't show emotions", and "always in 'fight mode'" traits, except making those her flaws that she needed to work past in order to grow (and then actually having her succeed in that)
Notice how it's easier to call "Black Widow" Natasha, because she has garnered familiarity and feels like a closer character to most people; in contrast to calling Carol Danvers "Captain Marvel" almost every time as she feels like a stranger we're just getting introduced to.
Well, I don't know how many have carried the Name of Black Widow in Marvel, but Carol isn't even the First Captain Marvel...one of her earliest incarnation ls is actually a black woman and even a man as well
@@kyrtuck no, it's a matter of CHARACTER... Carol inherited her powers, they have been passed all along throughout the years and the technical last Captain Marvel is Rogue from the X men who keeps her powers permanently after accidentally killing her during a fight
Funny thing is that whenever I create a 'strong female character', I always base them off my mother. She's 60. She's somewhat physically strong but incredibly emotionally strong. That to me is a strong female character. Steel with kindness.
Mothers are exactly what strong female characters look like. You don’t need your mother to beat wholesale ass to know that. In fact, there’s probably nothing you’d like to see less than your mother beating wholesale ass, because it would likely mean the situation is completely out of control.
Physically strong for a lady but can’t overpower a man Stop surrendering to feminism Men and women are different physically Men are the strongest of the TWO genders It’s science I thought leftist loved science
It's also probably why Sailor Moon is a perfect example of what more feminine coded examples of strength can look like. Her strength/power is exactly what you're describing, and then you also have some examples of women with masculine coded strength. Diversity. It's an awesome show.
Just write female characters like an actual human being: she has strengths, she has weakness, hopes and fears and ultimately she has a dream and mission. Human beings are complex, therefore women are complex. IDK why these writers and actresses' insist on making women so dull and political in TVs and movies, give them a proper character development and people will love them. People like good characters, not political virtue signaling.
unfortunately for the people who have more than two neurons to rub together, political virtue signaling gets asses in the seats and gets people talking about it, ergo it's here to stay for at least another decade or two.
I guess a good example would be old Mulan VS the new one. In the old one she struggles, builds new skills, overcomes things she can't do by pure physical strength with new strategies etc In the new movie she can do stuff because she is special and a magicly skilled chosen one... The first one teaches that things are approachable by having the courage to try it, by practice and smart thinking. The new one has a hero that is the way she is naturally. No motivation for people to fight for their goals or to put effort in becoming better at something or in finding a way to overcome a hurdle. New Mulan is just gifzet her goal because she is special... Quite discouraging as in reality no one just gifts you a life skill. While you might be able to learn something quick, it's not that you are an expert by default and therefore can become anything just by wanting it without any practice, efford, tests and hurdle whatsoever.
Exactly, I pointed this out and my Feminist cousin said "Oh you just hate Women". Like she is delusional in the Propaganda and doesn't even understand what the problem is
Old mulan didn't have the strength of the men around her, she became a hero because of her quick thinking and clever solutions to problems, the new mulan scrapped this idea and made her superhumanly fast and strong. This didn't provide a relatable or interesting narrative, which is why I prefer the old mulan movie
Ok first off, 99% of first female characters *are* toxic, pointless, useless, ridiculous, pathetic... ( I can keep going). Women, especially nowadays, are just child minded I mean they think like kids, react like kids, cry like kids, get angry like kids... Look at that Marvel thing actress, she's serious about being superior to Thor or whatever : because of a cinema ROLE, I mean what the hell you dumb little B lol ? Look at that Daenerys Targaryen actress, who comes up with a pathetic reggae freestyle to tell us "look at me I have dragons, I'm Queen of Meereen, careful I'm dangerous You can't TaLk tO mE", again, I can keep going. The more I go further in life, the more I become misogyn, and you can not seriously blame me.
@@wernerbottoni4971 not the worst... but definately really bad. BIG MECHA SPIRIT GO BRRRR!!!! Also cheating is fine as long as you are a lesbian... wait... I don't even remember because it was so bad and unimportant :D TloK is a fun little fanfiction. Like "The cursed child". There are only a handful of things that add to the lore and make it better, but SO MANY that detract from it, once you think about it a bit more.
The Captain Marvel (or Warbird) in the Avengers comics that I used to read struggled with a drinking problem and the fact that her powers were uncontrollably powerful and could put her team at risk. It was a very compelling storyline and gave her character a lot of depth.
Thank you. Carol had horrible PTSD and self medicated with more booze than Tony Stark drinks in a week. She had all sorts of interesting things to examine and we got... nothing.
@Damien Wayne first civil war made me hate Stark even when I started watching the MCU I couldn't stand him, the same with Civil War 2 with Captain Marvel. I regret reading both books to this day.
Natasha's strength was established in her first scene with Bruce Banner. She is confident and completely in control. Then, he yells at her, and she is paralysed with fear. She knew the danger all along, she went into that room knowing what might happen to her. She mastered her fear up until that moment. That's real strength.
@@sjonnieplayfull5859 yeah if you knew no fear you would just be ignorant to danger. Whereas someone who knows fear but continue on despite that fear is bravery.
The EPICDEMIC of 'HAVING TO put-down and emasculae male non-females to raise-up female Characters in an attempt to make strong female Characters' is rampaging and raging, right now. let alone all those that took thhe ever-sarcastic Advice of RU-vidr 'Terrible Writing Advice' literally!
I'm writing a medieval fantasy novel and my favorite and most complex character in the book is a former fairy queen who was exiled from her clan and forced to raise her triplet daughters on her own. She starts off pretty "weak" physically in the beginning of the book, worrying that she can't protect her daughters and can't be enough for them, but how her character progresses throughout the story is one of my favorite things I've ever written.
That's interesting! I am about to write a fantasy book as well, but it's played in the real world, except that the characters are fairies, manós (manó means elf in my native language but that word always makes me think of DnD elves so I tend to avoid that) and water-manós (I'll later invent a cooler name for them but now I use this as a placeholder). The plot is built around a huge war between the small, hidden kingdoms these little people are inhabiting (a manó is small enough to ride a blackbird and fairies are even smaller), and it happens in the parks, forests, caves, and lakes in and around my hometown, in the present days, but these races still have medieval technology combined with what they came up on their own. I'm a guy but I think I have more female characters in mind than males at the moment, like the main character. Her personality is pretty similar to Mulan, her story in nutshell is that she is a manó princess, raised in a castle and sheltered from the world. She was very close to her great uncle who is a well respected warlord who has fought many times to protect the kingdom. So when her homeland is attacked, her great uncle puts on his armour suit once again and leads the army to war. The protagonist wanted to go with him because she hates sitting in the castle with nothing to do when every helping hand is needed, but her parents don't let her. So she gets herself a sword and hides in one of the chests which contain food for the soldiers. By the time her great uncle discoveres that she is exactly where she shouldn't be it's too late to send her back and thus eventually he agrees to train her. She will become a warrior, who saves the kingdom (and many others in the end, when the war escalates). She will have to struggle of course, but it won't really be related to her gender (there are lots of woman soldiers in the army, it's not uncommon), it's simply that she needs time to master her skills and to get used to not being surrounded by servants, not to mention the dangers she faces. And there are the other characters, for example a queen whose husband was killed in battle and she swore revenge, another one who is narcissistic, manipulative and married to a much younger man (it will be an important plotline how the king will break free from her and stand on the protagonist's side), and one who has been raised to be a knight and will be pretty much like a mentor to the main character. Wow, I just realised how much I need to figure out the names for these characters. Sorry for dumping the entire Bible on you, I guess I just wanted to talk about it to someone.😅
Hugh Jackman's wolverine character is an instance where the character's loss of memory is used to drive the story and explore his personality. Despite being a blank slate, we were still able to connect to the character of Logan through his actions, as well as the relations he cultivates within characters such as Rogue & Xavier. Character development done right 👍
But he's not a blank slate. He doesn't know his past, but he oozes personality. That's the difference. Most amnesiac characters are bland because the story is about uncovering their past, but Wolverine always had personality and the amnesia was just to free up the back story
I just love Black Widow. She didn't needed superpowers to be an Avenger. She used his fighting skills, her inteligence, her psycological tricks, her words, her backstory, her knowledgment about history and other sciences, her own life as a "laboral experience" as an agent. She is complex, she isn't totally good or totally bad, she's in the middle in all the shades of grey. She has flaws, she has emotions, she isn't afraid of asking for help, she is afraid of showing fear but she has it and sometimes it shows, even from small details like her look, or her microactions. On the other hand, Captain Marvel, is just... what we saw...
It took me years to realize that the scene in Avengers, where she interrogates Loki, she was using her own unhealed trauma to trick Loki into revealing his plans. She's such a well written character
I really like the part she outsmart Loki in Avenger 2012 showing how good she is at playing mind trick. That's her unique strength that no other Avenger have.
I'm 7 months late to the conversation, but... I'd say that people like Black Widow (and many others) BECAUSE they were written to BE liked. OTOH, we have "strong female characters" like Captain Marvel... who are NOT the kind of person that most people would willingly invite into their homes if she were real. You MIGHT respect her... but you wouldn't want to be around her... which, ironically, also appears to be true of Brie Larson.
I always use Toph and Katara from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Both of those characters are extremely well humanized and have great conflict. I think Toph's gender wasn't chosen until after the character had already been written and they literally had to start designer her character visually. Not 100% sure on that but she is a great example of a great character who happens to be female.
@@TheRedHaze3 The boulder (rock) was indeed going to be the original toph until the decision of having a young divergent earth bending master (toph) who embodies none of the physical attributes usually attributed to earthbenders.
I'd like to say that gender plays a huge role in characterization. A better way to express the same feelings but a bit more accurately is don't make gender the FOCUS of a character, you can't have that be their main point. Toph being female played into her character quite a bit, for example, how she rejected her parents, her lifestyle and the "ladylike" person her parents wanted her to be and ran away with team avatar. Toph's femininity was also highlighted when she went on a "girl's day out" with Katara, and her slight crush on Sokka. Toph is just awesome all around but it would be rude to the people that brought her to life to say her gender didn't play a role in her character.
Sailor Moon is one of the most powerful female characters to exists, yet she is far from perfect. She struggles with her grades, is clumsy, cries a lot, prefers to eat and sleep rather than do her homework. She is written to be a reluctant hero in the first series of the 90s anime (I can't remember if the same is true for the manga), and is emotionally affected if things go very badly. But she is only a 14 year old, anyone at that age would struggle with such a big burden. Towards the end of the first season, the most devastating turn of events happen, and despite how she almost loses all will to fight, she still manages to pull through and continue to the final showdown. I think a lot of the time 'strong female characters' are written to be flawless, and their strength is only through what they can do with their powers/physical strength, whereas strength can be mental/emotional too; continuing on no matter how hard things get being one example. A flawed character is much more interesting than a perfect one.
one of my problems with this topic. some writers just put the female character next to a bad/stupid male character so they look better, or have male characters act stupid (or even out of character) just to push this narrative. But the problem with that, in my opinion, is that we create this image that female characters can only be good if the male counterpart is just bad/stupid. Or that characters use toxic traits to "reverse the roles". The Problem with this one, when you show a female character act like this you dont "empore" people you just make fans angry at the producers and at the political message that you tried to enforce... (sorry, english is not my native tounge)
In birds of prey, you know the harley quinn movie All men is evil in that movie even the nicest guy to her betrayed her, it really made me feel like its a man hater movie after watching it.
Hermione Granger and Ron Weasley she was smarter, braver and a better friend in the movies while he was dumber, more cowardly and a worse friend. In the books everybody had a moment. In the movies Hermione and Harry got moments and Ron was there for the laughs because he is dumb, a ginger, and poor. In the books you could feel the friendship between Harry and Ron. Hermione was sometimes left out but the friendship was there. In the movies. Rons friendship was like Nevilles friendship to Harry and Hermione. Nearly non existent. It always felt like Harry and Hermione belong together. I never had this feeling in the books. It was always when do Ron and Hermione become a couple. Hermione was too perfect in the movies. And she lost every flaw in the second movie and forward.
i think Carol's flaw is actually being emotionless. if they had set that up as her fatal flaw from the beginning (instead of trying to say shes "too emotional" when she actually doesn't show any emotion) and then had her develop into a character who embraces her emotions and uses them to become stronger, it would have made her a much more likeable character and fit with the overall theme of the movie that they were trying to achieve
that would have been great. she could have been a woman who cultivated emotionlessness as a means to cope with the sexism she experienced in life because that worked to get people to respect and leave her alone. this would have made her esteemed among the kree, she gains their approval for this lack of emotionality - but her story arc can be about how she learns to regain her human and feminine ability to emote, and discover that she no longer needs to be emotionless to cope with others, and in fact her coping strategy was becoming a liability, and growing beyond that is what makes her stronger and more effective as a hero.
This is where I begin to question whether it is the actress's fault or the script, because the movie says she's too emotional while she showed no emotions AT ALL.
But the thing with captain marvel is that she is something that you would call an acual superhero not like someone like lets say ironman who is a supehero too but he has a life of his own a child a wife ik but carol she is a supperhero full on she is a powerful woman cuz of her powers and cuz she is basicly emotionless cuz she dosen't have many loved ones like i can name her cat and maria rambeou and monice and thats basically it she knows nick furye but its not a strong friendship yk
This is why i love Avatar the last Air Bender so much. They did a great job at portraying strong female characters in their own way. Katara is compasionate but she's not always been a goody two shoes and she sometimes shows anger. Toph (one of the stronger Bender) is somehow insensitive, but it doesn't make her always rude to others, They make her that it's okay to need help. Cheerful Ty Lee is also shown that she's sometimes not okay. Azula, is a confident, person and we can see she's actually has insecurity. Don't forget Mai and Suki that shows many affection to their love one
And they stand besides great male characters like Aang who starts out tallented but pacifistic who learns to stand up when it is needed, Zuko who has suffered deep emotional trauma and falls low before rising, Sokka who is insecure but covers it up with bravado and even a bit of sexist behavior, but grows beyond that, and Iroh as a magnificent mentor. Great male characters and female characters who don't need to diminish anybody else to look better. Instead, they all serve to highlight how great the others are. Toph and Azula are some of my favorite characters in all of animated fiction. They kick ass but it's because they have earned it, not because they have plot armor derived from their gender. They are equally fallible as the above mentioned men, have just as many flaws. And because of that when they overcome their flaws it makes them all the more impressive, and when they finally succumb it is all the more sad.
All of the main characters are great characters in their own ways, they each change and develop in different ways. Even Azula you felt sorry for at the end, yes you know what she did, but you see her slowly comming unhinged and going deeper into her own madness, where she keeps up her appearance of being perfect, being flawless, being the strongest. And you have other characters. Like souka who at first is this clownish guy, who felt over shadowed by the magic users, would do like another commenter here said hide his insecurity in bravado, sexist behavior, and just jokes all the time, but over the course of his adventure the others come to rely upon him for his intelligence, his determination. Hell when he got to kioshi Island and then got his ass beat, and then admitted he was wrong and that he needed help from the kioshi warriors, that was a great scene
Princess Nausicaa from "Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind" is a great example of a strong-willed female character who isn't toxic and she also proves that she can protect the Valley from harm at all costs despite her flaws.
When I see a stoic, emotionally closed-off character like Captain Marvel, I am reminded of the kinds of people that constantly have their guard up around others. The kinds of people that always try to hide what is going on inside their heads and hearts, because they are *terrified* that it could be used against them. Except that, if this was a genuine and deliberate character flaw, you would see that facade break, eventually. You would see the character lower their guard when they are alone, or when they around the very few people they do trust. You would see their actions betray the image they are trying to project from themselves. Or you would simply see the cracks in the facade, because they may *think* and may have even convinced themselves that they are good and not letting anyone know - but really, who ever is? But if there are no cracks in the facade, if the character remaines stoic and closed-off and seemingly in control even when awaking from a trauma-induced nightmare, then it is not the character that has their guard up. It is the writer.
stoic, "emotionally closed-off people" are not afraid of emotions. They just don't process them at a level most people do or see the need to give too much energy to emotions, they are searching for answers to their problems, and how to fix them. It is not their choice not to show emotions, they just put their energy into thought, and in thought, they are lost, constantly searching for plans A/B/C even D to get to their goal. If you are to look at stoics, the first thing you would notice different about them would be that "far look", that is how their internal thinking and processing works. They still feel emotions - strongly, and they DO show them, but to a select few. Why? Because instinctively they know empathy and emotions connect people, and they want to be connected to those they want to be connected with. They just don't express emotions to those that they don't see as people they want to spend time with and waste energy on them. Emotional connection to Stoic people is actually a sacred place. It is their highest form of saying: I like you and I want you to become a part of my life.
@@mikali1704 I may have formulated my point in a misleading way. I've never said that "emotionally closed-off" people are afraid of emotions themselves, but of being *vulnerable* in front of others, because they fear that it would be used against them. People who are afraid of showing vulnerability will try their best to keep their emotions to themselves - however, that isn't always possible, especially during times of stress. And also, there really isn't any need to keep up the facade when one is alone and safe. Characters like Captain Marvel, however, that are always stoic, never show emotion and are always in control of their situation - even when waking up from a traumatic nightmare - do not seem like real people in that context. Real people would show emotions *sometimes,* no matter how hard they try to keep their guard up. It therefore comes off as a power fantasy - the character who not only never shows any form of vulnerability, but ultimately *has* no such vulnerability.
@@TDKiller415 I think every writer in Hollywood interested in making a strong female action character needs sequestered and strapped into a chair where they are shown the movie Aliens (1986) just about fifty times. Then they would see what a successful strong female action character actually looks like. For that matter, they would see what good script writing looks like. As this is a sequel to Alien (1979), there's quite a bit of back story-so when the movie opens, we see Ripley as a deeply traumatized wreck of a woman. When she is convinced/coerced to join a mission with some marines to make contact with missing colonists, she is terrified that she will have to confront the alien again. And she's terrified throughout the whole movie and with good cause---at any moment she could get her face hugged be impregnated with an alien, or she is just as likely have her face eaten off her skull by one. But despite her fear, she doesn't let that paralyze her. When confronted with a green, indecisive Marine lieutenant, Ripley takes action to save the marines she is there with. She proves early on that she's a team player when operating a mech-style forklift. She has the capacity to care about other people like Newt and Hicks as the events of the movie wear on. And at the end of the movie, she is out of ammo, out of guns and winds up in a mech-forklift fist fight with the queen alien where the stakes are life and death, and you have no sense that the ending is predetermined. The story telling is just that tense all the way through. In the theater, the whole place erupted when Sigourney Weaver screamed "Get away from her, you B****!" Here is to hoping the days of the strong Mary-Sue action hero are rapidly coming to an end
In my opinion, the character Ripley from the movie, "Alien" was one of the strongest female characters on screen. She showed emotion as well as strength but the thing that really stood out was that no one was trying to force-feed me a strong female/girl power narrative. I was able to come away from the movie, rooting for the character that was strong, as well as a woman!
One of my favorite female protagonists is Erin Gruwell from Freedom Writers (Played by Hilary Swank) it tells the story of a teacher that was sent to a school in a bad neighborhood, but instead of giving up and moving she stayed and did her best to make the kids interested in school and eventually helped them graduate highschool, sacrificing her marriage in the process. I'm a man and i absolutely loved Erin and i looked up to her, and the best part is, this wasn't a fictional character, the movie was based on a book based on the life of a real woman who did all that. IMO that's a real strong female, and there are millions of strong females all around us, but these Hollywood writers live in their big mansions in Beverly Hills and don't see these examples and their only idea of struggle is some dumb thing like mansplaining or cat-calling, that's why we get these garbage movies.
An example of a strong female character that I feel is underappreciated is Evey from The Mummy. She is feminine from the beginning of the movie to the end and it never feels forced or tacky. She is clearly the smartest person in the room but not only does she never call attention to it but neither does anyone else (except the Egyptologist who blatantly questions her intelligence). She has thoughts and feelings beyond "I'm a woman it's so hard to be a woman wahhh" and she has flaws that humanize her and make her relatable. Knocking down all the bookcases of the library? Who wouldn't feel awful if that happened to them? Yes, she does have to be rescued at the climax of the film but she in turn rescues the heroes several times over the course of the movie. She negotiates O'Connell's release just before he can hang, she pulls him out of the way of incoming gunfire on the barge (after she rescues herself from the hooked Medjai by jabbing him in the eye with a candle), she sacrifices herself to go with Imhotep to save the others (yes, Imhotep betrays her but the principle still applies), distracts Imhotep during his sandstorm attack, and ultimately removes his immortality so O'Connell can finish him. And then she becomes a more physical character in the sequel so she even gets to have some fight scenes. Evey Carnaghan (later O'Connell) is intelligent, brave, resourceful, and maintains her femininity through and through. That is a shining example of a well-written strong female character.
Another perfect strong female character is Captain Catheryn Janeway of Star Trek: Voyager. She is literally the most powerful person on the ship (she is in charge of everything and everybody) but she isn't toxic in the least. She's brilliant, intelligent, a great leader, yet she isn't a jerk or overly aggressive. She makes mistakes but is very compassionate and maintains her femininity throughout the show. We really need some more Janeways in TV and movies right now.
What about Elena Fisher from Uncharted? Yes she played the damsel in distress a bit in the first game, but she was an amazing and reliable character all the way through the Uncharted series.
I think Annabeth Chase from Percy Jackson is a great example of what to do. She's very strong and independent but also has her moments of weakness and can be seen breaking down when she can't bear a situation. Another character, Clarisse, always portrays this strong exterior but can be seen breaking down. Writers should follow Rick Riodian's lead for writing strong female characters.
Rick is just great in creating characters. For example "strong gay characters" are almost as hated as "strong female characters" because they concern more about they being gay/female, than they being a person, but Nico is fucking great
Rick riodian has made goated characters both female and male if only they decided make a percy jackson series + the heroes of Olympus based strictly on the books with a high budget Then it would definitely be up there as one of the greatest series to showcase strong female and male characters who are strong ,have complex issues , finds the way to solve said issues. Plus each of the characters are unique
When you were explaining what a strong female character is, being strong but also having flaws, I could only think of Katniss Everdeen, what a perfect example. Not afraid to show emotion (to the viewers and to her family, of course she was afraid to show emotion to the capitol), but not scared to fight when needed
@@rhodesbob2317 Katniss was fine in the Hunger Games. It was in Catching Fire and Mockingjay that the narrative and writing let her down. She didn't really do anything and lost all agency as the story began to happen to her.
Thank you for this! I find that what you have just presented applies to all characters both male and female. I think this is the essence of screenwriting for characters to have flaws, internal conflicts and demons and struggle to eventual triumphs over them. Not to have an already cookie cutter mold of a flawless character suddenly introduced, who do not have to struggle and earn their successes.
Worst example in recent MCU: Ironheart. Another condescending quippy token black female teenage genius (because the movie tells us she is) who is arrogant and utterly unlikable as a person, and as a character is a textbook Mary-Sue as she is introduced as a plot device, upstages Tony Stark/Iron Man (who is dead at the time), and the script writers try to shove her down our throat pretending she is flawless and cool and her terrible behaviour is edginess. And just like with Carol Danvers/Cpt. Marvel, we are being _told_ through the mouth of another established character that we the audience should like Ironheart.
Arcane to me was a breath of fresh air from this point of view: every character was on point and unique in their own way; when I first saw Vi, Caitlyn, Mel or Jinx the thought of them being “strong female characters” never crossed my mind once. I just enjoyed the story and all their different interactions and that’s how it should be. Not to mention that male characters were given the same level of depth and introspection as well. Props to RIOT and Fortiche for all the effort they clearly put in this project. Easily one of the best series in recent years.
This is why I have a problem when people say "strong female character". More often than not that means "strong female" and forgets the "character" portion. Just write a strong character and the gender will either be completely irrelevant or bring it out even more. Shouldn't we look past the person we see but what the person is?
@@Maletizer Whenever I hear "Strong, female character" I hear "men with boobs". Because they're basically just that. They do what men do, while simultanously calling men that do what they do toxic.
I always thought Katniss Everdeen was a very well written female character who is strong, courageous, a total bad a, but also deeply emotionally driven. She may be rough on the outside from her upbringing, but she appreciates beauty, and her ability to empathize and her strong will to protect the ones she loves and her feminine traits are the prime example of a strong woman. I think she's so well rounded, yet flawed. She's realistic! And a fantastic role model! I have always seen her as a fantastically written female character.
the very first moment I saw Captain Marvel interact with the rest of the avengers i despised her, but the first moment I saw black widow interact with other people, even though she didn't do a whole lot, I was wondering what was going on with her. You have hit the nail on the head and i hope a lot of people who write a lot of modern media will watch this video for years to come
The very first thought I have when “strong woman character” comes to mind: Eowyn from Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings. She displays a fierce sense of loyalty to her people and her land, at the same time showing a warm and caring heart to those in need of a helping hand. She doesn’t fear death, only that she’ll be “in a cage”, cutting her off from her potential and ability to help her people. She is soft, yet also strong. She’s the definition of a sword maiden. Can’t cook worth a damn, ask Aragorn, but honestly a few flaws save her from being a Mary Sue And when she kills the Witch King? Bad. Ass. And her line is FIRE. “No man can kill me” 👹 *takes off helm, despite a broken arm, revealing face* “I am no man” *fucking ENDS one of the most powerful incarnations of evil that Middle Earth has ever known* She doesn’t say it like “cos men are weak and dumb and as a strong independent WOMAN-“ nonono, she’s more clever than that. It’s more of a triumphant statement, like “oh yeah? LOOPHOLE, B*TCH!” Love it. Love that she got a happily ever after with another badass good guy, Faramir. Love that he’s also built up to be a strong and flawed character, making their pairing more organic and satisfying. Just a great fucking story.
I absolutely hate that scene in LOTR, and actually consider that to be the first micro-sign of catering to women being an “inferior sex” but “actually not because WOMEN can DO IT TOO!” But that’s not even why I don’t like that scene, that part is minor. That joke literally only works in English, which to me makes the entire premise of the comeback completely idiotic, because it’s not even respectable to language let alone Tolkien who loves language. The Witch King says “No man can kill me”, which means the race of Man. As opposed to Dwarf, Elf, Hobbit, etc. She then converts that word to mean genders, because she is a woman. But the fact is, she is still in fact have all the characteristics of being part of the race of man. She is not a dwarf or elf or orc. So the fact she needs to bring that up means that she not only misunderstood the Witch King but finds it an issue worthy of being raised. Aka inferiority complex. Makes me feel concerned for her character she has something she needs to prove.
@@vistalover9607 Who said that "no man can kill me" means the race of Man? Who explicitly said that? No man. No man has said it. It was never explained further in neither books or films what "man" is defined as. It was simply stated as is. YOU INFERRED it. That is your HEAD CANON. Your THEORY if nothing else. The thing with prophecies is, they will always happen. But most often than not, in a way you didn't expect it to, but is clear in hindsight. It is in the nature of prophecies to be slippery, often it is the driving force that sets the characters to the direction that fulfills the prophecy anyway. Here, let me show you the exact prophecy that the Witch King was referring to, "Do not pursue him, he will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall." The Witch King knows of this and grows confident that he will not be slain in a battle against the race of Man, leading to his downfall. Man could mean two things, the gender or the race. Given the Witch King's haughty disposition, he believes that it refers to his race of Man. His hubris blinds him into thinking that naturally, the prophecy refers to the collective race of man, rather than a simple gender. So what happens in the end? He gets killed by BOTH Eowyn, a female warrior, AND Merry, a hobbit. Eowyn is not a man (gender) and neither was merry (a man but not a race of Man). So yes, her saying "I am no man," is appropriate because it shows him the irony of his hubris before he is killed.
@@vistalover9607actually, it doesn't only work in English. In Hungarian it was that "nobody's son could kill me", since "nobody's son" is a commonly used expression when we mean no one. And she said "I am nobody's son". I know it doesn't matter, but I like that scene because of this "Loophole b*tch!" moment.
@@vistalover9607 I think the problem is that what really did in Witchy there was the elven sword she took from Merry in that scene. It's sort of epic that she ends the guy with "I am no man" but it is undercut when you've read the books and know about the grave/barrow that Frodo/Merry/Pippin/Aragorn found themselves in where they discovered a cache of enchanted elven weapons. In the movie, Aragorn gives them out like party treats.
@@WickedPrince3D Hollywood, Marvel, CW, they all have masssssive Problems with Good Writing right now, especially Diversity. Theyre so incompetent and sludgehammer-in-your-face that people call it Wokeness and not Representation. No one feels represented by Planks of Wood. We literally live in a creatively-bankcrupt Age, tbh.
@@slevinchannel7589 I agree with you whole-heartedly. Any reasonably informed opinion that doesn't agree with the current political agenda is simply WRONG. And those who hold differing opinions should be re-educated - IE - brainwashed - until they are true believers. This is exactly why the Founding Fathers detested the idea of political parties from the get-go.
See this is why i love Wanda, especially after the new doctor strange movie (no spoiler) but you can really see how emotions drive a character and do them justice, no matter what path they choose. Wanda is hands down the most powerful avenger, and has gone through so much and you can see how everytime she fights, she does to keep something she’s afraid to lose or because she has lost something, in age of ultron she unleashes her full power when her brother dies, in infinity war she fights thanos to protect vision, in endgame she fights him again after he killed vision and you just see how much her emotions fuel her strength
Yeah, Scarlet Witch in the MCU is great. I especially love how her entire character is defined by the men in her life and if you remove them, she literally has no story to tell. I mean, you literally said that in your comment so clearly you love that the MCU can only define women by their relationships with men.
Are we all not defined by our relationships to others? And what relationships mean to us is often times what would drive someone. Wanda is motivated to search for her kids, as any parent would, and it's that same relationship with them that ends the Dr. Strange movie. It's not the relationships with men that is defining her but if you look deeper, it's the pain of a deceased sibling, losing an intimate partner, and the erasure of your children. And in the end through all that pain, it's HERSELF who quells her and gets her to change. That is not defined by any man, that is her and internal strength. But sure, you can read surface deep. That's cool too
As a screenwriter, we are at the bottom of the feed chain, meaning, the least paid for, recognized, and empowered, yet whenever a movie goes bad, they blame it on the screenplay. Whenever the movie is a hit, they blame it on the director, actor, etc. While it's true that it's next to impossible to make a good movie from a bad script, it's easy to make a bad movie from a good script because once the production company buys the script, they can make a junk VW bus from a new mercedes because the screenwriter no longer has any say or value. There are just too many hands in a written script to bring it onto the big screen. That's why I'm writing books now, because I will at least have intelectual property.
That's a great point! Sometimes studio inteference wrecks a good script. I've heard about Sam Raimi and Spider Man 3, how Sony told him to put Venom in the movie even though he didn't want to. In fact, Sony had tried to get him to write BOTH Green Goblin and Dr. Octopus in the same movie. Thankfully, he was able to convince them it would expensive to do that. But for some reason, Sony still felt the need to put Venom in the final movie and they're being blamed for the final production of the film.
@@SerafRhayn It's not always the case if the screenwriter isn't new and can leverage a deal that he or she has first rights to write changes, but that's usually not the case for newbies.
I don't blame the screenwriters for the waste of film that was Rose Tiko. That trainwreck was entirely the fault of KKKennedy and Ruin Johnson. I spent the entire movie waiting for Rose to be revealed as a First Order spy/saboteur who made up the hyperspace tracker and was actually using a quantum communicator like the one that Leia was using to lead 'Rey' back to the fleet. Vice-Admiral Holdo knew that there was a saboteur aboard and suspected Poe, because he was in First Order custody recently and got away.
I've been trying to say this for the last 4 years. But I have always been told to shut up, and that I was nothing but a misogynist straight white male, and my opinion means nothing. Thank you for finally giving a critical voice that the industry can't shut down. We need the pendulum to swing back a little, so that we can make movies great again.
One of my favorite strong female characters of recent times was Rita Vrataski from Edge of tomorrow. She doesn't scream "I am a badass so respect me" at every turn. Instead, she shows it, and everyone else recognizes it.
Hell yeah. Her gender was irrelevant, just an awesome character who had seen endless hell and trying her best to get through it. I also like Eowyn from the Lord of the Rings movies.
The Carol of the comics is a complicated character. A former alcoholic, for instance. She has a deep historical background. But they took barely any of it. It's a shame.
@@thatHARVguy They must have all ended up in therapy after she started a concentration camp in the Negative Zone and formed a child army to act as secret police to lock people up in illegal prisons because they were *going to* commit crimes according to a compulsive liar precog.
Carol in the comics is ALSO hated by Marvel fans. Her solo runs were...well, in 5 years she was rebooted 4 times. That should give you an idea of the type of character she is. She is toxic, routinely hating on men even in the comics. Her comics are boring, and she is not that historic of a character. You can remove her from the continuity and nothing would change at all. They have also shoehorned her into OTHER hero's stories just to try and help her popularity. Instead it brought lower sales to the other hero titles every time she has popped up in their stories. Her personality is like that of the idiot jock that hates teamwork while also having no other good traits. Even her Ms.Marvel days weren't that great, she was less front and center but whenever her mask was off even in these days she was problematic and had multiple reboots. Carol has never been a liked character, but the costume designs were generally liked and thus used for cosplays. Which kept her around longer than she deserved. The GOOD CM? Monica Rambeau. This is a black woman and was the first human to have the title of CM. She is warm, caring, capable of kicking butt but doesn't use it as the default way of solving every problem (this IS carol's only method of solving problems). Oh yeah, she lead the Avengers for 15 years. Balancing all of those personalities and weaving their social mannerisms to mold them into a team. Carol causes conflict, she never solves it without fighting.
I think it comes down to one thing. They don’t need to be a strong FEMALE character. Gender obsession ruins a movie. It needs to be structured so that, whilst only a female protagonist works, the script is never driving in the point that ‘look, here’s a woman, she’s a strong woman’. They need to be STRONG female characters. A character that is strong, that’s compelling and female.
To summarise, there is "STRONG FEMALE character", and there is "strong, female character". Without the comma, you have a trope. And that trope got old a good while ago.
@@kabukiman2153 "Why mention their gender at all?" To be fair, a person's sex tends to call attention to itself. This is hard to escape, humans being humans. There is also the "first woman to (insert feat)", "first minority person to...", and so on. Like an elephant in the living room, ignoring it would feel more forced than calling attention to it. There is a growing sense that various types of humans are not fully interchangeable.
You hit the nail on the head with everything! …which is why I find Natashas character infinitely more interesting than Carols. Also Scarlett Johansson is stunningly beautiful 😍
"For every strength you give a character, give them two weaknesses" -My middle school writing teacher, the only person in that entire school district I respected.
At the very least, every character should have at least 1 weakness. And the stronger they are the more crippling that weakness should be. Even Superman has to watch out for cryptonite. The deathstar has the one weakspot, Sauron dies with the ring, and Voldemort is a regular mortal if you destroy his horcruxes.
@@MsLilly200 And Voldemort's major character weakness is love and his inability to understand it: not just romantic love (eros) but also storge (familial love), philia (love of friends), and agape (love and empathy for all mankind). And they become his downfall.
Elle Woods in an amazing strong female character. She is very driven and determined and while working to achieve her goal she dosen't loose that "girly" side of her and continues to embrace it.
Mulan (the classic one, obviously) is definitely a great strong female character. Her determination and wit are both strong qualities, and they also help her become physically strong when she was previously weak. It’s a shame they turned her into another captain marvel…
I would like to see Mulan fighting the Mongols or the Huns. And I hope the leader of the Mongols and the Huns would be portrayed by the same man who portrayed Attila in Night at the Museum.
If you film the source material of the Mulan story, "The Ballad of Mulan", the whole story might not even last ten minutes of screen time: as usual Disney bulked up the story til it became many times its original size, and added plenty of extra narratives of their own creation. Originally it was about "stepping up" when the chips are down, without making a point of "hurray girl-power" and such.
One thing I also appreciate with Mulan is that she still gets the guy at the end. Writers now are so terrified of doing this, like it somehow makes them weak or something. What that really tells me is that they are not confident in their characters.
That's one of the things Chinese audiences hated most about the movie. She didn't earn anything, it was just given to her from the beginning. Didn't really help that 3 other Mulan related projects came out in China that year.
What I liked about Mulan 1998 was its warmth. You could really feel the connections between Mulan and her family members, army buddies, and even Mushu had that one scene where he admits he's a fraud. My biggest problem with Mulan 2020 is how it all felt cold and distant. I wasn't overly bothered by the Chi Powers nonsense that much.
You did Snow White and Cinderella a disservice showing them in the clip equating them to weak damsels in distress. They are both strong female characters who are mistakenly labeled as weak and antiquated simply because they are not modern day tales. Cinderella wasn't going to the ball to get the prince, she went to the ball so that she could have one night of feeling happy and free from her daily life. She just happened to catch the eye of the prince who then helped her out of her horrible living situation. And snow white survived being hunted down in a terrifying forest and didn't let that awful experience keep her from being warm hearted. Not to mention she was the leader of 7 adult men. Neither of these female characters from the early/mid 1900s were damsels in distress who were too weak to save themselves, they just happened to receive help. Not everyone can be their own hero all the time and that shouldn't be pushed as the narrative for what makes someone strong. Sometimes you have to rely on others. Big shocker I know.
The Funny thing is, there are version of Carol that are actually likable and charming as hell. The MCU didn't have to do her like that, they just fumbled so hard.
The problem was that the makers weren't trying to make a good movie. They were trying to push what the Critical Drinker calls "The Message". Well news flash nobody is going to receive "The Message" unless you make the movie good and make people want to be like the heroes.
“Why can’t a female character show emotion and have the strength to overcome obstacles and learn from her mistakes?” This entire subject was done brilliantly by Jodie Foster as Clarice starling in The Silence of the Lambs 31 years ago. That film is a masterwork of feminist cinema, among so many other things, because the feminist narrative is presented in a way that most people don’t even know are there. Even the most non-feminist man is subliminally watching a feminist piece and learning from it without really being aware of it. Interestingly, that character was written by a man, first by Thomas Harris then Ted Tally for the film. So go figure.
Silence of the Lambs isn't exactly subtle about the sexism Clarice faces in her career as a field agent. It wasn't overblown like in Hannibal, but it wasn't subtle either. It's also very poetic that Buffalo Bill kills women in his desire to pursue a feminine persona, while Clarice ends up killing a man in her pursuit of adopting a masculine role (hunter/protector). Hannibal is also important as a source of temptation for her. He forces her to ask the question, in your quest for a position of strength, (to overcome how weak you feel inside) will you become something noble or will you become a predator like me?
@@derek96720 Wow this is a really beautiful analysis! Love it. I have never actually thought of it that way, where Buffalo Bill is sort of the inverse of Clarice in every way. I have heard some interpretations that actually refer to it as misandrist because a woman quite literally kills a man that is trying to arrogate a woman’s role. Yeah, this movie is food for the mind. And the power dynamics between Clarice and Lecter are intriguing because it is a scenario where a man and a woman are going mano a mano in the most feminist and unconventional way possible in a movie - by talking with each other. No punches are thrown between them. Neither picks up a gun and threatens the life of the other as we so typically see in some Rambo or Die Hard movie. It’s all a movie analyst’s dream!
@@nunbeam I can definitely see that but she is much more of the traditional action hero type strong woman, which is fine. She’s not too cerebral and doesn’t internalize things like Clarice. Ripley is certainly the in your face, beating her chest kind of strong woman that many don’t like. Sigourney Weaver was superb, but I disagree that she’s a truly great feminist movie icon in an unconventional way. Ellen Ripley is Rambo with estrogen.
@@maninu.s.8139 It's a little ironic that you'd call her "Rambo with estrogen", considering the majority of Rambo was actually dealing with a veteran's PTSD and is fairly low on action, quantitatively. There are big action scenes, yes, but that's mostly to prove to the audience that Rambo is who the writers keep telling us he is. It would be a big disappointment, for example, if -- due to a lackluster action sequence -- the audience independently decided he was just a delusional McDojo wannabe. So the action served a specific purpose. Ripley, in contrast, isn't (narratively) built up like Rambo at all -- no one provides any exposition about her to bolster the audience's opinion of her, and we're even (mis)led to believe that the male captain is actually the protagonist until he's surprisingly killed off in a horror bait-and-switch. What we do see of her, though, is that she knows the quarantine protocols and is good at her job. Long before she starts shooting flames at anything, she's just someone who is principled enough to do her job properly. As far as how cerebral she is: she works well with her crew, knowing how to talk to them (e.g. the greedy mechanics) to get them to do what she needs. She originally initiates the self-destruct sequence on the mothership, but realizes she's stuck on the mothership when the alien is blocking her path to the shuttle. So she tries to disable the self-destruct. When she's unable to do so, she's forced to re-check the escape shuttle and doesn't see the alien, so she boards it. She later defeats the alien without physical confrontation. The fact that she changes her plans multiple times throughout the movie shows that she's able to adapt to new logical obstacles. I get where you're coming from, as far as Ripley becoming more confrontational in subsequent movies, but the worst depictions of her also came from the most forgettable sequels. The reason they kept using her as the protagonist is because she was iconic to the first film, though. If the alien was the only star, they could have continued with other main actors, the way most horror franchises do (where the villain is the attraction).
In my opinion, one of if not the best "strong female character " ever written is Carol from The Walking Dead. Her story arch is amazing. From a battered emotionally damaged weakling, to an incredibly ruthless yet caring character. Totally bad ass.
I AGREE!! I LOVED her character and sometimes just watched to see what she would do next in a situation. She was quite amazing and I didn't finish the show but I watched enough seasons for her character to remain great in my memory.
@@themagneficent9400 Exactly, I don’t really particularly like her BUT I don’t constantly hate her like every other woke characters because her story is believable and good
I recently watched The Boys. Man, that was some great writing for every female character! My favorite was Komiko, the young woman who was both vulnerable and savage.
Thank you for this, more women need to speak up about this, characters like Captain Marvel and Rey have been popping up a lot recently and whenever a guy said they dislike those character they were labelled as misogynistic and toxic.
Funny thing is if you ask those same men who their favorite female characters are, they will gush about Leia, Ripley, Sarah Connor then go into a lecture about various other less well-known female characters and why they're awesome.
The issue is they are creating overconfident hyper-masculine men trapped in a twiggy women's body that can juggle construction cars. Give us a lady with more brains and strategy rather than brawn and she would be instantly liked. Everybody loves Batman instead of Superman after all.
@@zeppelincraft1443 No, that's not the problem, the problem is that most of the time they aren't really characters. For crying out loud, the Supergirl from the 80's movie has more personality in her skirt than Captain Marvel has in two movies. Rey and Holdo combined have less character growth than Vasquez from Aliens. Live action Mulan is nowhere near as interesting or likable as the original animated version. Newest example, Charlene McGee from the Firestarter movies, Barrymore's version is an actual character, while the newer version is weaker not just in terms of raw power, but also in terms of character. Your point about Bats and Supes while not quite accurate, is still fairly relevant. It's not about power, it's about either how the character changes in the world or how the character changes the world around them. Sorry about the novel. You make good points that thought warranted more in depth discussion.
I never new how much I loved reading about strong female characters until I went back and remembered Hermione, Annabeth Chase, and Katniss who were all favourites of mine growing up, and that they are strong female characters that struggle and have flaws, and they are relatable and overcome challenges. But I never thought of them as strong female characters because of how the media portrays these type of characters with those toxic traits and without any flaws. And those characters end up becoming boring, unlikable, and unrelatable. Edit: Also, how do you feel about Arcane, because the female characters (all the characters actually) are so interesting
If you say reading about them, I assume you mean book Hermione? 😉 Because movie Hermione was already getting close to Rey & Co. She wasn’t a Mary Sue yet, but she shared a trait with Wesley Crusher, in that everyone else around her was made to seem less intelligent to prop her up. Most notably, Ron. Movie Hermione took most of his hero lines from the books.
@@cosmicprison9819 Agreed. Hermione still has more visible flaws in the movies than characters like Rey and Captain Marvel, but they really minimized those flaws and emphasized every single flaw Ron had to the point of hiding away his qualities. I think I read somewhere that one of the directors really liked Hermione and disliked Ron, so that might've affected it. Don't know how accurate this is, though.
@@VenhedisKaffas Yes, the director openly stated this repeatedly, Hermione was his favourite character. And Rowling liked this, because she assumed everyone would name Ron as their favourite character. Also, Hermione was Rowling’s self-insert, so who doesn’t like a more positive depiction of oneself? Except Rowling was apparently much more self-aware while writing book Hermione than when it came to the movies. Given how much control she had over the films, she probably could have objected at any time if the depiction of movie Hermione had gotten too “idealised” for her tastes. But apparently, she didn’t. They made a few good changes from the books to the movies, too - for example, reducing the number of “Dobby-ex-machina” moments, giving some of these to Neville instead (in film 4, this made more sense anyway, since Neville is the herbology nerd). But overall, considering that Ron is the second-most important character in the book, if all of this came at such a systematic disservice to the protagonist’s best friend across all 8 movies, I guess I have to conclude the downsides still outweigh the upsides. Meaning, at the end of the day, I still have to give it to the books.
And that's why Ahsoka Tano continues to be a masterclass of great female lead. If only writers understood what makes Ahsoka such an ICONIC character.... And the reason why she's incredible is because of this: Ahsoka Tano is perfect BECAUSE OF her imperfections.
Ahsoka's amazing because she has some of the best character development in all of Star Wars. We see her start off as a casual, inexperienced girl who doesn't take things seriously and who acts annoying and bratty. But as the show progresses, as we see her struggles, her motives, her failures and all, she grows. She gets stronger, smarter, more mature, and overall becomes a better Jedi. In Season 1, she's an annoying little sister type of character, and in Season 7, she's a strong young woman who's been hardened by all her experiences that have ultimately resulted in her significant amount of growth as a Jedi, as a soldier, and as a person overall. ...Then the directors of the sequel trilogy said "hey, that's really cool, but that's a lot of time and effort to put into this 50 year old iconic series. What if we skip all that and just make the main character perfect in every conceivable way right from the getgo!"
Cartoons have been one of the only places where three-dimensional Female characters consistently shine. Highlighting another series/es with great Female characters, Justice League and Justice League: Unlimited flesh-out their Females with clear wants, needs, strongsuits, and imperfections. And to further compliment the showrunners more, Hawk girl, one of the main characters, has an engaging romance arc/arcs with Green Lantern, which at no point ever demeans or compromises the integrity of either character. It's a shame that certain movie heroes haven't been written to the same standard.
Hopefully Disney doesn't ruin her now... cause so far in the Mandalorian she is kinda flat. Obviously she doesn't have a big part, but they could do it right or easily turn her into one of these toxic strong characters just because she has lived through so much and learned things and is now a master. But what's the point of making a movie about someone that has finished growing? Not to mention real people DON'T finish learning and growing. I want to see her struggling with things in new ways that continue to progress her character.
Do you know who nomi sunrider is if you don't i beg you learn she is by far one of the best female jedi not the best female jedi there are at least 1 better and another equal to her
I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with a woman in armor. I mean look at how great a character Brienne of Tarth is. But she’s also a multilayered character with strengths and moments of weakness to balance her moments where she’s a genuine badass. She feels like a real person that is written with respect. But not every woman needs to be in armor in order to be powerful or well written. If you want another example, Vi from Arcane is one. She has some genuine moments of badassery and power but she’s also balanced with moments of weakness and getting her ass kicked. She’s not given special treatment at any point. She’s just a female character written with respect and not trying to score a diversity point. Not every woman finds strength in wearing armor or succeeding in battle. Same with male characters. Not all of them are warriors. Some are great on the sidelines being the one who plan everything. The problem isn’t that we need to stop having women being leads. The problem is we need to stop the trend currently happening with our female protagonists being toxic hypocrites.
Yes! Brienne of Tarth is a great example of a strong female character done right! She's strong and noble and has good characteristics to aspire to, but she also has weaknesses and insecurities that make her feel human. And her wants and motives feel very natural.
Brie Larson was asked this question once in an interview. I donno why it isn't on RU-vid... But she replied that she's getting a lot of hate because she's a woman and is also the strongest superhero in the franchise. Like really... Black Widow is a woman and people love her. Scarlett Witch is a woman and also maybe stronger that Captain Marvel and people love her too. It isn't her gender or superpower that people hate... It is her attitude and also her bland character in the movie. She really needs to realise that.
A great thing about Black Widow is that she has skills that the other members of the Avengers team don't have and are highly valuable to them. She manipulated Loki into giving away his plan in The Avengers, I don't think the other Avengers can do that.
I agree with you but I think that specific scene in with her & Loki was meant to be taken as part of Loki’s manipulation cause even though Nat gets that information out of him things still go the way Loki planned and you could say that Nat treating Banner like someone who can’t control himself was a big reason for him eventually losing control. But yeah I agree with you on the overall point her interrogation skills & perceptiveness are unmatched
Sigourney Weaver in the Aliën movies was really ahead of her time as a strong female character. You totally accepted that she carried the movie without asking questions.
All female characters in James Cameron's movies are excellently written (except "Terminator Dark Fate", which suffers from the "woke" illness like all movies since 2016).
@@Viewable11 *James Cameron. Ripley was a great character in the first Alien as well which was Ridley Scott directing. James Cameron carried on with her great character in Aliens, but he didn’t create that character.
@@leinonibishop9480 But Cameron modified Ripley substantially. Please watch _Aliens vs. Terminator 2 - How to Sequel like James Cameron_ beginning at 6:33 and _How James Cameron Changed Ripley_ beginning at 1:43 and _ELLEN RIPLEY: How You Write a Strong Female Character_ and at last but not least _Aliens | Ripley is the Perfect Female Protagonist_
@@Viewable11 I’m not disagreeing that Cameron writes good characters or is a good director. All I’m saying is that he doesn’t get all the credit for creating the Ripley character because he didn’t create her or have anything to do with the first movie. I find it interesting that you quote all these sources and time codes at me like you are such a Cameron expert, yet in your first comment you got his name completely wrong and didn’t realize he didn’t do ‘Dark Fate’. Google some more, keyboard warrior.
You wanna know what it is? It’s disingenuous and forced. That’s the problem. It shouldn’t matter what the persons sex is; a well written character should be able to stand on their own regardless of sex.
@@supremelordoftheuniverse5449 It's related to your sex sometimes, but it's not determined. Often people write female characters with negative preconceptions in society about how women are strong in the first place. Often writing uses women to degrade men to make themselves look better relatively, rather than developing a character that actually overcomes adversity of some sort, they do this because they don't understand what actually defines character strength in the first place
@@supremelordoftheuniverse5449 It shouldn't need to come down to a character's sex to determine what their strengths and weaknesses are, there can be a middle ground in there somewhere. While it is true that certain traits are either more so masculine or feminine due to association, what you're saying is inherently limiting specifically because it's tying those attributes to the character's sex. It's for this reason in part why people find it interesting to see a character that breaks the mold by not strictly adhering to the strengths that are most associated with their sex first; and it also shows that they are more complex than that, otherwise, you're just creating a stereotype that doesn't push the boundaries of what a character can and, by extension, can NOT be purely because of their sex. While it can be used to some degree, if kept mostly to what you suggested, you wouldn't necessarily be creating a character that people haven't seen countless times before
my problem with the way "strong female characters" are portrayed is that they are made by taking a woman and making her more masculine. there's nothing wrong with that in itself, but if the only reason she's considered "strong" is that she wears pants, there's a problem. A woman can be strong without wielding a sword.
Right?!? I literally can't name any feminine strong female characters where they're usually soft spoken yet strong in their own way which saddens me because I feel like I'll identify with those type of characters rather than the ass kicking violent ones.
Bc pants are now a masculine thing? Indeed if she's strong while fighting she won't do it with a dress. I have nothing abt what you said but it's weird the way you believe tant bc she's a woman she has to show some "feminine" traits, I mean you're masculine as long as you're a man and feminine as long as you're a woman. Your definition of those 2 genders is based on stereotyps imo. The point of feminism is to show that yes, a woman can wear that too, do that too, so it's NOT a masculine thing anymore if women do it I think
@@daeith1233 pants are not 'now' a masculine thing, they have been for a long time and will be for a long time. In my language, we even have a saying that whoever wears the pants in the house is the man of a relationship. It always makes me chuckle when artists make female characters and let them sit with spread legs, like, okay, now she's got to be more of a man, not more of a woman, to come over as strong.
@@oplars6487 So attitudes defined by society should be how men and women act! Thank you for making us understand that spreading your legs is a sign you're masculine, like women have legs but they would never do that bc their legs can't open up more😔. Masculinity indeed resolve abt how you spread your legs and feminity resolve abt how you don't wear pants, and don't spread you legs.
Nami from One Piece, even though she is physically weak and would have trouble against strong foes. She is the best navigator and without her everyone wouldn't be able to survive sailing those tough waters that id beyond imagination.
Someone once pointed this out on a video a couple of years back when Captain Marvel and Alita released around the same time: “Writers in the industry cannot distinguish the difference between writing a POWERFUL FEMALE character and writing a POWERFUL female CHARACTER.”
I'd also say Azula, Ty Lee, and Mai are also exceptionally written females - mainly because their creators are actually talented. Also, can't ignore Vi and Caitlyn are great in all the right ways.
I love Vi. She is a great brawler and you can see how much she loves Powder. She would do anything for her little sister I can't wait for season 2 to see how their relationship changes
I never realized what an exposition dump that scene with Loki is. It's so well put together and acted and we're so interested in the characters that we don't notice or it doesn't matter.
Because they gave us all that exposition with a purpose, since she was using it to manipulate Loki into revealing his plan. We get to learn about her backstory, but not in a way that seemed ham-fisted or forced.
What really kicks it for me is that Natasha is genuinely hurt by Loki's words but she is also manipulating a narcissist into telling her what she wants. Her being emotional is what gets Loki to spill the beans because he smells blood in the water and keeps hitting that button because it makes him feel powerful. It was simultaneously a tool she uses against Loki and the exposure of her deepest fear all wrapped up together and it's glorious. Her ability to manipulate people is a "strength" for her but also one that probably terrifies her.
Maturity is when you realise how deep a character Black Widow is and how hollow Captain Marvel is. P.S used to hate Black Widow earlier, but after knowing the struggle and limitations of that character it became relatable
I am glad that I'm not the only one who believes that strong female characters are often written very bad and only motivated by being better than everyone else (especially men). Those strong female character who I do like has more than just being a strong independent women.
Captain marvel was one thos characters that are meant to be written off. By having her powers stolen and Rogue introduced. Then Rogue seeks help from the Xmen to atone for it.
Amazing breakdown! 👏👏 It always bothered me that female characters in modern cinema have gone from stereotypical quiet, demure, delicate damsels in distress to flawless, toxic, arrogant, aggressive, violent, emotionless bots (traits that we criticized male characters for having) and calling it "female empowerment" instead of incorporating nuance between these traits. Because telling your audience that a female can't be strong in her own right unless she is essentially a man in all but appearance isn't sexist at all. 😒
There’s has never been a moment where I haven’t rooted for Black Widow to win but every time Captain Marvel is fighting I feel nothing and I never noticed why until watching this video
I actulally fist-pumped when Thanos slapped, her away. Such an arrogant, unlikeable person. Badly written and her actress conflated Captain Marvel and herself a bit too much.
I wonder if it’s because she is a woman or just that the character is too overpowered in general? Not such an interesting super hero to begin with? While Black Widow is human.
@@LaurJpn I think it’s just the fact that I know she could never really lose any fight Bc of how over powered she is, where as Black Widow is just an extremely talented human, with flaws and feelings.
I love this video. Everything that you said about Natasha can be applied to other female characters as well. We follow Diana in WW 1 she’s in awe of her fellow Amazons and wants to learn to fight. But her drive is more duty bound than simply “men are evil and weak” she has compassion for the human world even going head first in possibly (at least to me) the most powerful transition from passerby to hero. Diana sees the horrors around her and instead of just following orders she dives in to help. Jessica Jones (yes I know many people don’t like her) but there’s moment in the show that do show her humanity. Her internal struggle and trauma while under killgraves control, her love and protective nature towards Patsy her foster sister. Though her abrasive nature can be a turn off, it’s not coming from out of nowhere. A quick flashback, in Designing Women. We are introduced to the character Susan Sugarbaker. She is an ex beauty queen , she’s beautiful and has an obscure view of the world and society. In the first episode she is dating a co workers ex husband and is unapologetic about it. But then in episode two she overhears two younger and more recent beauty queens mock her and her win. We see her become vulnerable and sympathetic and there’s so many more moments of her stepping up to help when her sister needs her the most. Though she is superficial she does have a heart.
I really loved how they wrote Layla in Moon knight. She was strong and a good fighter physically while also being vulnerable and not afraid to show her emotions. She had fears and drawbacks but she wasn’t afraid to ask for help and accepts it. She made mistakes throughout the season but what made her strong is that she kept going even though it was hard for her emotionally. Genuinely one of my new favorite female characters in the mcu.
i did like Layla at first but the way she turned into Tawaret’s avatar do soon and her own hero in span of a single episode was not good. and she saved mark/steven and moon knight in the episode multiple times and didn’t even struggle at fight with Amit. personally i don’t like her character
@@ann2574 What do you mean she didn't struggle? Harrow literally blasted her and Marc away with one shot and had her helpless to save Marc which resulted in Jake Lockley interfering. Watch it again.
@@ann2574 yes Ann, watch it again because it makes no sense that someone could possibly disagree with the narcissistic SOB that posted above me. Literally the worst character ever created. She had zero depth. It was just “hey look, strong wahmenz must save weak menz 9x in 5 episodes, and became hero in show that wasn’t supposed to be about her” That’s called a bait and switch. Moon Knight was barely in the f’ing show. They used the title to pull people in, and gave us some off-brand nobody that most people can’t stand. “Are you an Egyptian superhero!?!” “Yes. I am” Ughk. So bad.
@@derkaffeenator9172 lol I was replying to Ann and agreeing with her. But then I was responding directly to @yourPage. I absolutely didn’t intend for the structure to be so convoluted.
kimiko is such a well written character, she's incredibly strong physically but shows that her strength can scare her sometimes and that she doesnt enjoy hurting others, she just wants to live happily with the people she loves.
Im currently writing a story about a young girl who was driven insane by past traumas. Shes attached to her brother and is really standoffish. Ive never really thought of her as a strong female character but this video has helped me just kind of think about it. Ive got a lot of working to do.
Hello I'm really interested in your story if you ever publish it somewhere I would love if you could reply with a link. It sounds like a very interesting story that I would enjoy reading!
@fizzleberrypoptwist1413 of course! I'm also working on another book rn, but I can copy and paste what I have so far here if you like. I usually don't really finish things much as I am younger (middle school-ish) and have other things to work on, but I do pride myself in my writing, so I'd be glad to share!
People like Black Widow because she doesn’t need to put down men or people to be superior. She has emotions while also be logical and calm. She also has challenges and set backs that actual effect her. Another great female character is Alita Battle Angel
At first I didn't care for Natasha, but she grew on me. The scene in age of ultron when she was telling Bruce Banner she couldn't have children is when I really started to relate to her character. Maybe because I couldn't have children, but for me it was the first time she showed true vulnerability and regret.
@@puellamservumaddominum6180 but thats not the message of the scene, the fact that they can't have children is a metaphor about their characters, both feel that they we're made as a weapon, made to kill and destroy, the fact that both (hulk and black widow) can't have children only makes them think that they are just a weapon even more, they are very good at destroyng life, but they can't create life, it's like the only reason they exist is to kill.
Maybe you should rewatch it… the message in the movie isn’t that she’s not a woman when she can’t have children. It’s about an insecurity which makes them believe they’re unfitting for a relationship, but she still decides to pursue Hulk. Furthermore what you said is part of the problem why they’re making invincible females nowadays. It’s an insecurity of hers and despite it she IS a character who’s badass and loved. Nobody has to say she is badass in the movie because they SHOW us that she’s amazing. Taking scenes (or character *opinions*) out of moviecontext and interpreting the message of Natasha being „she can’t be a (strong) female without children“ is just not quite right. When you show messages, despite characters seeing it different themselves, the viewer believes what they see in the movie, not what they hear in a scene. Which can have an empowering rolemodel effect on the viewer. They relate their insecurities to a character they trust and the movie shows they’re a good character nevertheless and that the insecurity doesn’t actually matter for her to be great. „hey i might be like her, maybe I’m more badass or better than i think right now too or maybe the thing im insecure about rly doesn’t matter all that much?“ Long story short: while yes, in the scene natasha thinks she’s not a good enough person without being able to have children, the movie as a whole shows her being a great character nevertheless.
When you started talking about the amnesia trope, I instantly thought of Jason Bourne. They handled his goals perfectly; he was afraid of who he was and what he might have done in his forgotten past. His goal was to find out what he had done so he could at least know what kind of a person he was, or used to be. Great character, great movie.
I really appreciate this. Recently, many reviewers--most of them women--have been pushing back about the "strong female character" type that's essentially a woman with "toxic masculine" traits. It's incredibly lazy writing to not make a female character complex, in fear of making them (shudder!) human. Hopefully, Hollywood will start listening to these voices and make more Black Widows, Wandas and Wonder Womans--and fewer Captain Marvels. Heros that both men and women can admire, and actually relate to--not that we're super heroes, but that we're all human and face struggles, weaknesses and dealing with our emotions. Relatability has little to do with a character's super powers or magical abilities, and everything to do with their human nature being expressed in times of stress and conflict.
EXACTLY. I feel like captain Marvel was the perfect 'superhero' meaning she was super strong and powerful and could get herself and other people out of any situation with relative ease. I feel like that's kind of what people expect their heroes to be like, but the reality is nobody is like that 100% of the time. Everyone has weaknesses, and everyone needs to realize everyone else has them too. And you're exactly right, people can think powers are cool all they want, but what they'll relate to is the human struggle that all of us go through On a slightly different note, cap marvel makes me mad because she really did have a lot of power but when it came to Thanos she didn't do anything about it. In endgame she was like 'you didn't have me last time' then literally did nothing to help the situation.
@@mckinleymontague2699 The Thanos problem funnily enough is rather parallel to CM's character issue. Marvel wrote a character so physically powerful that her intervening throughout the movie would have removed a lot of the stakes. They created a superhero that likely faces very little physical challenge that involving her in certain stories would remove a lot of interest.
One of the best strong woman characters imo is Ripley from the Alien series - not a soldier but fights like hell to survive and escape in the 1st movie and in the 2nd when she goes after the little girl to recuse her she goes mama bear mode. Her character is well written and well played Sigourney Weaver. Any character with no character would be lame man or woman.
Ripley's motives are very understandable and even relatable to a lot of people. She never does anything unreasonably well, and as a human, she is underpowered to fight a xenomorph. She has to overcome her weaknesses and use everything at her disposal to survive, just barely. Captain marvel, on the other hand, just wins every time. No struggle, no failures, no weaknesses, no character arc, etc. Ironically, not overcoming any difficult challenges makes her weaker by comparison, even though she is physically stronger.
Interesting note: when the Alien script was written the characters' were not labeled as male or female. The characters were just referred to by their last name. The decision to make Ripley female came much later in the process. This was likely the reason the character was written so well. There was no gender bias during the original development of the character.
