Flowey is edgy because he's a child trying to be scary, it makes complete and total sense for him to be so over the top and "Trying so hard" because he is trying really hard to come off as something scary.
That was personally his worst point in the video. How can you call Alphys more tolerable than Flowey? That's coming from someone who likes Alphys' good side of her character (instead of ignoring it for LGBT stuff)
To be completely honest, as a person who can’t separate myself from saying “what if I _was_ that character?” this kind of experience happens to me with most stories I experience
I think it's great when this message is converted through gameplay. But with a bit of empathy, this same mindset can be applied to films and books, as even if that character isn't *you,* you're still on a journey with them.
im so jealous of you, i WISH i could form that kind of a mindset and investment for everything i play. for me it just needs to be something really gripping mechanically or storywise for me to be able to do it which is a shame cause i bet you get such amazing experiences with a good number of story games where i will just be able to appreciate it as a story
@@zGamerGodz tbh it can get really annoying whenever I end up feeling like I have no sense of what’s good in quality and what’s bad (like how I get too damn invested in *Miraculous* 😅) Everything’s just one big blur of emotional investment lol
the most heartbreaking thing in Undertale that will forever upset me is the fact that you really can’t save Asriel. He is destined to live alone forever with no soul and you can’t do anything about it.
The fact is, while you don't save him and yes, he does turn back into a flower. On that canceled official Undertale app dialogue leaked by Toby, we learn that even though Asriel becomes Flowey again, he can still feel love. So in a way, you do save him, sure he's still alone, but he's not an emotionless killer anymore
Personally, Undertale broke me within the first hour of gameplay- I originally started out pacifist, but I ended up killing Toriel. I didn't want to; but I had attempted to spare her five times to no avail, and previous experience with games have taught me that five is the typical maximum number of attempts for something like that. So I figured I had no choice but to stop her. But after talking to Flowey, I had the sneaking suspicion that I could have saved her, so I reloaded my last save and spared her properly, doing it 24 times before she finally let me go. As I left I thought "well that seemed excessive, but I guess the developer wanted to make sure people who went pacifist would stick to their guns". And then Flowey spoke to me again: _"I know what you did._ *_You murdered her._* _And then you went back, because you regretted it."_ It read me like a goddamn book. I did this kind of save-scumming all the time in other games, just I can see the outcome of every choice I make. But that damn flower told me off for being a lazy coward. That's when I knew I hadn't given this game enough credit, and it was much, _much_ deeper than I initially thought.
OH MY GOD YES. THAT'S JUST EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED TO ME. i was so scared and caught off-guard, especially when Flowey made that distorted Toriel face. it's one of the reasons why Flowey is my favourite character.
Ahaha, this happened to me on my first playthrough of the game as well, even up to the “five-times-maximum” rule I had in my head. I hadn’t seen anyone else online encounter this line of dialogue yet so I was honestly pretty terrified lol, Flowey called me out on my bullshit and from that point on I knew this game was truly something special ✨
When flower said the thing after I killed then spared her I realized how right he was and restarted again, and that gave me the drive to not take the easy route, and just stick with it. Until asgore, at least.
I personally really like the ending you got. There’s an implication that Alphys evacuated everyone to her true lab to save them from you. Which means she overcame her guilt in order to protect the monsters from you. Characters becoming the best version of themselves to stop you is a common theme in the genocide route, and one I think is really cool.
It's even more heartbreaking knowing that depending on how you play, its implied that she committed suicide, in her lab, I believe. she's such a comfort character to me
I can see that, Papyrus still believing you until the end, Mettaton fighting for all of humanity since he’s their last hope ( wait until they see Sans ), Undyne becoming the true hero to face you, and Sans, well, he kicked your ass over and over again, he’s trying to defeat you in the most meta way possible and solving the thing that makes you so powerful
@@dr.alphys8650 i believe she did commit suicide but not in her lab, she committed suicide at the waterfall Where she was stopped by Undyne months before
@@X-SPONGED that's right! I completely forgot about that, it's a good point. I absolutely adore their relationship and am eagerly awaiting for the next installments of Delta Rune to see how everything goes down on their end.
I always interpreted Flowey’s mannerisms as what I child would THINK was edgy and menacing. At his heart, Flowey was a just a child who never got the opportunity to grow up who ended up with god-like power and the inability to feel empathy. I like to think that all the attacks during Asriel’s boss fight were named by Asriel himself.
Of course his attacks were named by him, though if I’m honest he isn’t bad at coming up with cool sounding names, and all the text boxes that read of his attack could be written by him, since he’s able to reality warp in that fight which is why the background is animated, and everything guess he made it rainbow because the fight was a coming out of the closet moment for him lmao I’m just joking, he probably thought it was cool, or was a Pink Floyd fan without even knowing what the hell that is lol, The Dark Side Of Asriel Dreemurr.
@@joshshrum2764 trying to blast my brain back to when I was like, 10, the thought process was something like, "Wow, magic is sooo cool. Look at those beams of light! thats so badass. But like, what would be the strongest looking spell? Fire? Eh, kinda basic... Wait. What if it was... Every color. Like a rainbow, a blast of all the colors! Thats super cool!" To be fair, it is still pretty cool.
@@nuclearcatpotatoe3714 And to be fair his attacks fucking hurt that’s what’s really scary about Asriel, having that much power sure he made up kinda childish attacks, and powers, but they still have the backlash to really hurt plus i can’t imagine how hot rainbow fire, and lightning is, so you really have to give it to Frisk, for having the determination to get through that fight, because if he got your soul, and went to destroy the world like he said he gave up on it would have been easy for him which is probably why he gave up on trying it, because he knew it wasn’t really that interesting, but instead still clinging onto you, and doing it allover again with you.
That's actually how a lot of evil people in real life are. Just idiot children who didn't have the chance to grow up and so finds the most surface level ways of finding happiness
The part that broke me was when I found snowflakes father in the Gotland resort. I was doing my first ever play through and did a neutral route. I had Killed snow drake and by the point I was with his dad I was level 8. I talked to him and then everything hit me. Snowflake lost his mother and he has been hit pretty hard by it. He has also been trying his hardest to be a good comedian but can’t live up to his fathers skills. These 2 things led to him to run away from home and for his father to miss him. When he asked me “have you seen my son” I stopped and froze. I killed his son, his son who was in mourning. After that I became far more merciful. Heck, I’m pretty sure I did not kill anyone else. I had already known the story and characters due to me playing the game gears after it came out. However it still managed to surprise me and make me feel emotional with moments like this
I actually experienced that particular scenario... vicariously, through my cousin. I was having him play it after I had done so myself, but I made sure to _not_ say _anything_ about "how to play". I wanted to _at least_ have someone I know experience this _totally blind_ (since I knew several things going into mine). As expected he killed a fair amount during his initial playthrough, including Snowy. What I _wasn't_ expecting, was him finding and speaking to his father and to be greeted with "Have you seen my son?" when he did. Since I had gone through this already I knew who he was talking about, so I kinda vaguely let my cousin know that "yes, you've _met_ his son...". After my playthrough, months before this moment, I went into this game pretty hard. Looking up all that I could about it in that time... yet _that_ was a small line I hadn't heard about. So I was hit with a mix of "Holy Shit, something new?!" and "Oh God.. this just got _so_ much sadder...".
The true judge of the genocide run- Nah really, he's the only monster that if you don't go for murder immediately he will end your run too aldksfjksldfj-
yeah, like who tf doesn't like flowey, even after understanding what happened to him???????? he IS supposed to act like an edgy 10/12 yo kid, that's what asriel after all (a kid)
I mean there are so many options and clever changes in the dialogue that give it a ton of replay value, and even with that, you can have an entirely different experience than someone else.
I think what's really cool is that the "standard" experience of Undertale has evolved over time, as the game has become more well known. before people knew what this game was doing, a lot of people who started playing Undertale would come in thinking of it as a standard RPG where defeating enemy npcs was the point. maybe they'd kill the first froggit they came across, and only then learn that this was a different sort of game. once you do that, the game never really forgets. you can reset it and basically get the pacifist run... but Flowey knows. even worse is when you get to the battle with Toriel. a lot of players who didn't know any better would end up killing her because the fight with her makes it seem like you have to. if you don't know the trick to that fight, it's hard to realize what you should be doing. like... how would you accidentally come to the realization that her attacks will start avoiding you if _your_ health gets too low? you'd have to be really dedicated to sparing her, in spite of how low your own character's health is getting, in order to find that information. and if you somehow managed to avoid killing any froggits, just by virtue of noticing that the mercy button exists, then you'd probably assume that this is as far as the game will let you go without killing an enemy. this is a boss fight... that's how games like this work. back when Undertale was brand new, the neutral route was the standard experience. there weren't directions for how to play the game correctly... you had to go in blind and do whatever instinctively made sense. if, early in your experience, you killed one of those early froggits, or Toriel... you'd have a conundrum on your hands. do you reset the game, wherein Flowey calls you out for doing so, but the rest of the characters let you progress as normal? or do you continue, living with the consequences of your actions? either way, you know what you did. so by the time you get to that mirror... you're really contending with the fact that "you" at the beginning, were considering everything in this world as nothing more than a game abstraction. and now, you have progressed to a point where everything has a unique character and personality. their lives may be artificial, but it is still possible to be either kind or cruel to them, and that decision lives in you as a real urge. and you know that the game wants you to think about that. "in spite of everything, it's still you" can mean that you've grown. and you're the only one who really knows in what direction. Undertale has a pacifist route, a neutral route, and a genocide route. and on your first time playing the game, it's natural to want to try and do everything right. you wanna do it correctly and win the game. but over the course of this game, you learn that everything in it wants to be considered with a very real amount of gravity. the writing practically asks you, directly, to take everything seriously. and it's really only once you've secured your good ending that the real lesson begins. I mean... you've completed the game. some might even call the peaceful ending boring. and Undertale genuinely is such a good game... there is still one more route, if you're curious. this is where you really start to feel like Flowey. the game just spent so much time trying as hard as it could to convince you of the reality of itself... but if you start the genocide run, especially after all of that... you're basically saying "no, game, you are fake." because like... you wouldn't kill a real person. you wouldn't kill your actual friend. but that's not what these characters are. they're ones and zeroes. you have to retract your investment in them, for the sake of insulating yourself emotionally, if you're going to satiate your curiosity here. Flowey does the exact same thing. he's aware of the repetitive nature of this game. he knows when you reset it. he doesn't see these people as fully real. and that's what allows him to hurt them. and it's even more interesting when you consider what it is that you discover when you play the genocide route. when you fight Sans and Undyne, yeah, you might see different sides of them... but these are sides of themselves that they wouldn't show to a friend. you had to become their enemy in order to coax these reactions out of them. you had to make them deeply upset in order to know what they're like in that circumstance. these are not sides of themselves that they've willingly given you... you made yourself into enough of a threat that they are lashing out. it was, for some reason, valuable to you to see them like this. because it was novel, and you wanted to feel like you'd really completed this experience. you may even be betraying the values that you normally hold, and would call yourself dedicated to. you do, in some ways, create a character that doesn't act the way that you would. you become "Akechi" or whatever you named your character. that identity isn't acting the way you would if you were being sincere. you are divorced from the reality of what's happening. Undertale is special because it calls you out for not taking it seriously. you see it as a game, and it wants you to come one step closer. when you play the genocide route, you are writing yourself out of character. you wouldn't do this in earnest.
I feel like every time a fandom goes through its “peak of popularity toxicity + cringe” phase people tend to undersell what gave said creation its popularity in the first place. This is the game with that soul-striking mirror text, with the bullet board combat, with the sparing and routes, with Megalovania’s most iconic form. It’s a masterpiece that may not be the best thing ever made, but dang is it definitely among them. It got into SMASH.
This is why honesty and accuracy in describing things works best. When people act like something is a flawless paragon that is perfect in every way all any outsiders will see are the flaws and how dishonest the original description was to them.
Apparently Toby Fox himself even played Smash with Sakurai, which kinda got him like “maybe Undertale’s not a bad addition to Smash.” Sure, Sans wasn’t a full character, but we literally got his mii outfit that might as well be him as a character. Sakurai even went the extra mile and had Megalovania remixed.
If you actually read what Chara says at the end of the genocide route, it's clear that the narrative isn't simply "Chara forces you to murder everyone." The narrative is more like "You and Chara work together to murder everyone."
To put it more accurately, you teach Chara how to act with other people, so in the post-genocide (true pacifist after genocide) ending they follow your steps and kill everyone locking you of a true ending
@@mariotheundying Exactly, I never like when people go "Chara evil haha I'm not the evil one I'm possessed" It's clearly us pushing the buttons as far as I know and chara is also with us in pacifist and neutral for the naration, how come we didn't get funny ideas in those playthrough if chara was here then? Maybe the true evil isn't chara but rather the player's way of toying with the world, but no "Let's make chara evil in this", even when chara gets disgusted when you do two gen routes in a row
@@flyingstonemon3564 i found you, hello snowflake toxic chara defender that always says the player is evil even thought, some of them didn't even do that route how are you doing defending a one note character
@@architype84the truth is that there never actually was a "bad fandom" i remember when that label first came out even back then and it was literally just because people wanted others to play the game. i mean seriously i havent seen and of these "toxic fans" everyone goes on and on about
@@architype84 I'm surprised you managed to avoid seeing the toxic fans around! Yeah, from what I remember there were a lot of immature people in the fandom. The part I remember the most were the sans fangirls, the people shipping frisk with sans and the weirdos shipping sans with other versions of himself or with papyrus. It's been years since I was heavily into undertale so I may have forgotten many things
@@voidnoidoid children are not toxic they are just dumb sometimes lol, and as for the shippers and cosplay type people they don’t bother me at all, why would they?
@@jamesmedina3297 well yeah, kids are dumb usually. But they can be toxic sometimes. It's good that you don't get bothered by silly shipping stuff, though some of it can be a little problematic.
the whole point of flowey is that he's some angry kid. he tries so hard to be scary and ends up looking well, like whatever the hell photoshop flowey is LOL. thats why i think floweys my favorite? he's a mess. he thinks this stuff is scary so he does it. he's just a kid tryin to be edgy and scary
you forgot to add to that the obvious fact that he's experienced thousands of timelines and murdered every monster he could he doesn't need to try to be scary to the player, because that would imply he knows about the player's existence
Given the huge amount of neutral endings this game has, this was 100% the intent behind that line. But since the whole internet was convinced that there's a "right way" to play the game almost no one goes into the game blind and actually feels the weight of their actions. People always play their first neutral route without killing anyone because it saves time in unlocking the pacifist route and then once that's done they kill everyone.
It's a shame, really. The game is intended to be played blind. You're supposed to kill some people when you can't find out how to spare them, or just do it out of curiosity, or simply kill one by accident early on when you aren't sure what this game is yet. The whole meta narrative of the game revolves around how you play the game. You're supposed to do the pacifist route because you WANT TO after experiencing how a neutral route ends and having learned many things. You're supposed to do the genocide route after having experimented and tried many things in neutral routes, so you start wondering what would happen if you kill everyone... the same way Flowey did. You aren't supposed to know a pacifist and genocide route exist in advance, it ruins everything, so much of what the game tries to tell you, and it removes so much impact, because how much of it was really your decision if you knew what you could do going into the game? It's really sad how much of the game's genuine spoilers are just common knowledge.
Yeah, that's my one real beef with the huge fandom (I don't think it was inherently MORE toxic than any other fandom, just big so the toxic elements were more evident tbh). The right way to play Undertale is the way the player WANTS to play. On the rare occasion I can recommend it to someone new, I always urge them to play it as uninformed as possible, and just do what they want to do.
I remember that Markpiler was doing a blind run on Undertale and killed toriel (he was a little late to the explosive fame of undertale i guess) and he decided to stop the run because people were being angry at him bc he was "supposed" to be pacifist, even through it was his first run so it couldn't even be possible lol That kinda ruins my thing for deltarune as well, it isn't possible to kill anyone bc the game wont let you progress/they run away, and probably in chapter 2 it will be full genocide, so yeah you dont have a decision to play in your way (i guess)
@@umusuarioqualquer6566 i guess deltarune will be more normal endings wise, your choices don't matter after all, so judging by the same metrics of undertale is not right, and i don't believe it will be genocidal, the ending is a mistery yet, but its not like we will be in a killing spree in a 1/8 of the game then just return to pacifism
It's strange that there's people saying "the game is a masterpiece" or "the game is ok" and even "the game is bad lol" because, I do think that and all these people could swap their opinions if in a different scenario, just like you did in your playthrough of the game. I really enjoy art. I don't enjoy all art, but I do, in fact, enjoy art. Art to me, doesn't have to always be enjoyable to all the people in the world, nor evoke the same reaction from everyone. Art is a mix, between what the author created, and you absorbed. To me, UnderTale is art.
@@immentallyhandicapped2903 that's fine I guess, just correct any spelling/grammar errors cuz I am not a native speaker and I have no idea if I wrote it right lol
Well you see, for me the game would have been better if it wasn't a game. I really like the story, the caracter, the music, the lore. But the gameplay.... I don't like or hate it. I mean, it's fun too try too find a way to spare the monster, but it can also be very hard for no reason (like for muffet). And the Geno Route is good.... until you kill Undyne, cuz after that.... it's just meh and since we all know how it end, I wouldn't try too beat Sans. But everything else is so good, the story is so well written (in the 3 big Route). The OST is just... WOW, Metal crusher, Spider dance, bring it in, wow! The caratcer? Every main ones are very well done, the sides ones are just all sidekicks and it's good. So yeah, I like the game for a bunch of reason... but not for being a game. That's mainly why I love see other people play it, cause it's a incredible story, what I don't like in the game is not why he is made for. And even tho I will never play it again, it still is a really good game
art in general actually has multiple interpretations, and every game is, in fact, art. But before it's art, it's still a game. That's why you can validate a game as bad or good, regardless of the message it wants to convey. It doesn't matter if the game sends a message or has multiple interpretations, if it doesn't meet the minimum requirements of a good game, it's a bad game (Not that undertale is bad, it just can't be considered good simply because it is "art" )
"I started grinding away at all the enemies while in voice chats with friends, and it made this route a lot more palatable" Even when you try and sidestep the game, it makes for effective commentary on morality. This quote showing how being surrounded by the comfort of companions who aren't judging you for your immorality makes you more complacent in it. Like soldiers gunning down innocents together who would never hurt a fly otherwise. The game almost functions like a scale model for empathy or morality. Informing you of the mechanics of the phenomenon without any of the consequences of using the real thing.
Something that always annoys me whenever I see comments on Undertale's morality, is that the only innocent monster is Toriel, because all the others genuinely try to kill you. Only in her case would your metaphor be correct. Of course, these people are just parroting Toby Fox's pacifist views, which he made way too clear in my opinion during certain parts of the game.
@@HumanoidDerpling Well to be fair, Papyrus doesn’t try to kill you either. He just stops you at 1 HP and sends you back to Snowdin, even letting you pass if you die to him three times. (Yes, I really was so bad at the game that I found that out on my first playthrough lmao)
Despite everything, Undertale still remains an iconic experience even after over 5 years It's kinda crazy how this game is almost 6 years old now (It's 6th anniversary is in about 3 months, on September 15th), Toby Fox did such a wonderful job with this game's incredibly memorable world
after being in this fandom roughly 5 years, god that line still hits hard. this game has so many small emotional moments that have stuck with me, including the entire new home segment, god.
The way you emphasize the "Despite everything it's still me" at the end and the whole video reminds me of my own unique experience with Undertale. For me, it was at the very end of the Neutral route, that it broke me. I succeeded to spare every monster; I got through to the end flawlessly, without knowing anything about the game before. Except that... When starting, I asked my friend "is everyone in the game just really secretly nice?", And she said "yes... Yes, everyone, maybe except for one.", and that stuck to me. I didn't know what to do with that information. Then it came to the last scene with Flowey, choosing whether to kill him or spare. At first... Spare. Flowey questions it; Spare him again. He keeps questioning it, non stop. Spare. And if keeps going, until... "I'll kill everyone". I was taken aback; how serious was this threat? How strong is he even? Could I even change anything, if he could manipulate savefiles? Very hesitantly, I clicked spare again. I didn't know what was coming, after all, as it was my first playthrough. "I will kill everyone you love.". I couldn't stand that. I chose "fight", as I didn't want someone to threaten those I love like this. Then, at the end, just the sudden: "I knew you had it in you". That haunts me forever until today. That I had it in me, something so grim, so primal, as to ignore everything else. I could have known the implications of the game, what it was trying to tell me; that, if something went wrong, I could correct it. If something was bad... The redemption was that I was good. But, my own fear and paranoia, that, even though I try to be kind the entire time, still consume me... Has affected me in the game, too. And I had it in me, and he knew. I feel like Toby knew this when designing the game. He knew how fucking devastating that would be. And well, he was right.
I didn’t kill flowey on my first route but that sentence, “I will kill everyone you love”, shook me to my core. I had to get up from my chair, do a couple of breaths, because I got that urge to just finish him, I was scared.
This is such a refreshing take on Undertale that I think the community is finally ready for. Back when it first got big, there were so many pacifist purists and people who demanded you play the game such and such way for arbitrary reasons. Those people still exist, but not in such overwhelming quantities anymore. The truth is this game was always meant to be played the way the individual wanted to play it, not the collective, and that shines brilliantly here. Nobody I know of has connected with "Despite everything, it's still you" quite like you have, and I doubt anyone will again. This takeaway on the aborted genocide run is a side of the story just as important as experiencing reward for mercy and consequences for none, and it was one hundred percent Toby Fox's design for it to hit this hard. I'm glad someone peeled away from the pressure of the Fandom to stick to arbitrary norms to shine a light on it.
Undertale got completely ruined for me because I had multiple friends telling me I HAD to play the pacifist route. They were very much pacifist purists, not letting me experience the game on my own terms. Looking back, I would've much preferred if they just told me to play the game.
The game isn't the greatest though. It's good, but not really a masterpiece. I, myself, like it, but there are a lot of problems with the game that sway it from being a true masterpiece.
It was nice to see it reflect the atmosphere of the video, but I hope its not a permanent change and he goes back to classic 'back in the 90s' in the other videos.
@@roonilpeblib6879 ikr me too. I was surprised, but like I said, I thought it fit. But then again, undertale's soundtrack is incredible so there's no way I'm gonna complain about hearing it again.
AAAAAAHHHHH!!!! PAAAAAIIIINNNN!!!!!! I broke my hand yesterday because of the hate comments I get all the time. I was so angry that I punched a hole in my computer. Please don't hate me, dear ro
The moment Undertale broke me was when sans judges you in the neutral route. I realized that I hadn't been simply defeating those monsters for exp and gold, I had been straight up killing them. It felt awful. I mean, I didn't think I wasn't killing them, but I wasn't really paying much attention to that fact, there's a lot of killing in video games so I treated it like it wasn't a big deal.
Yeah, iirc it was really unusual narratively for the time. Most RPGs and such would either go "this is soulless enemy, kill for loot" or "this is person, you are horrible" fairly early on. And especially with a human protagonist and non-human foes, it's easy to gloss over how you're interacting with the game world. The fact that you can go back and talk to NPC monsters in a spared area after clearing it really clinched it for me. Sans going "you're a murderer" could be a joke in so many other games but in Underale it sets of me going "oh damn AM I?? I AM"
this is why i get frustrated when people talk about the game only in terms of a pacifist-murder dichotomy. yesh, the neutral routes arent rich in gameplay so much as they all have varyingly cool epilogues, but they're still part of the game! in my opinion, some of the most important bits of the game because they really put the pacifist and murder routes into perspective.
it was especially relevant back near the start, where the options were framed as "either you're super good and spare everybody you meet even if they're trying to kill you, or the game calls you a monster and fucks your ending forever." Like obviously those are the most interesting routes in terms of the unique content they offer, but there's every option to just kill or spare arbitrarily, or kill the monsters you happen to come across without hunting them all down. Go out of your way to spare ones you particularly like or who are easy to pacify and fight the ones that are more aggressive. To an extent, the player can make their own narrative.
I've never really played, just watched a lot of videos about it (and think I lost great gameplay), but it is still very interesting. Someday, I watched a video with all the neutral san's calls in the end and it was very interesting the few nuances between each one. For example in neutral pacifist Papyrus becomes the leader of the Royal Guard (also the only member lol), whose sole purpose was now to distribute flowers, and Undyne works with Alphys to find another way to break the Barries. But if you kill few monsters (not bosses), Papyrus says that the royal guard was shut down and he doesn't know what to do with his life, and Undyne works with Sans selling hot dogs.
I thought I was the only one who had the "couldn't find two enemies and so I killed Metatton, but realized I had ruined the route but refused to stop and had a mental breakdown" experience with Undertale, but apparently it's a more common occurrence than I thought.
Thinking about it, I wonder if that's on purpose. Making that final stretch the most tedious and time consuming, making you wonder if you're doing anything wrong, so you just get impatient and continue on, just to ruin your run. Maybe its the games final attempt to try to break you out of your monstrous path and end with at least some mercy in you
if I had a nickel for every time I've heard someone talk about missing the last 2 enemies in hotland, and then killing mettaton early thus locking themselves out of the genocide route, id have 2 nickels. which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice
Maybe for you, the phrase "Despite everything, it's still you" wasn't as powerful when you did the Pacifist Route, which is completely fine and I understand your point of view, but for me? It's the most meaningful phrase in the whole game. You have gone through so much stuff, you literally saw horrors in a lab, you had to go through sparing the one being that wanted you dead from the beginning, you had to fight the king of the land to earn your own freedom. And despite it all? Despite going through hell and back? It's still you, the same person that started the game, the same kid that fell down to the Underground, the same person that developed so many meaningful relationships with all these characters and watched them grow before your eyes. It was all you, and it's still you, you did all of that, you achieved all of that by yourself! And that's the message! You didn't change your own core of your being for no one, you were strong until the end, and despite all the difficulties and people who wanted to stop you along the way, it's still little old Frisk, and it's still you, the player who made all those choices.
I'm glad someone else sees it this way! When you think about the game as if YOU were Frisk, doing a True Pacifist route would take an INSANE amount of patience and kindness. The residents are literally trying to kill you, many people in that situation would either run, or fight back in self-defense. But when you do the True Pacifist route, you'd be essentially choosing to become friends with people who are trying to kill you. In the real world, it's difficult to forgive someone for that kind of act. Which makes the line "Despite everything, it's still you" even more powerful. Despite constantly fending for your life against attackers, despite the difficulties that came with trying to befriend scary and aggressive people like Undyne, and despite all the possible trauma these characters put you through, it's still you. The kid who is kind to everyone no matter what. Who shows forgiveness even when many of these characters struggle to forgive themselves. You made it this far, you didn't let others' aggression towards you change your core motives and beliefs (which in this day and age with Twitter existing, is also extremely difficult). You remained true to yourself and you're ready to face whatever the end challenge may be, considering you don't intend on killing Asgore for your own personal gain.
I love how the line can take on so many meanings, but yeah I think this is what it was talking about. You faced a lot of hardship and held onto yourself through it all, you didn't cave!
That was sorta my take too when my friend and I did a pacifist together. Despite the horror, the trauma, and everything that happened, it's still you. You've grown as a better person than what you started. You could have hurt these strangers you didn't know out of self defense or fear. But you grew to love them. And the growth is still you. You're constantly growing, meeting more people, and learning new things. Despite everything, it's still you.
I really like the "Only Alphys Survives" ending, it feels like the best of the No Mercy branches cuz it's a side of Alphys you never see even during the True Pacifist route, yet doesn't hit you over the head as bluntly as fulfilling the No Mercy path does.
@@floweyfangirl69420 They probably meant the ending were you beat Undyne the Undying but _doesn't_ kill every monster in the Core before beating Mettaton. The ending Schaffrilas got. Were Alphys takes over the Underground.
Everyone complains about the Undertale fandom, as if it’s specific to the game and not just a general rule for everything that has such a large online fanbase. I feel like the narrative of “Undertale has the worst fandom” contributed to people being put off from the game as much-if not more so-than the fandom itself. Either way, I’m glad you gave it a shot. It’s one of my favorite games.
Seriously it's so stupid. OF COURSE a huge fandom like undertale's is gonna seem toxic. It's a gigantic community of people, annoying, toxic side it's gonna be more loud and noticeable because of how huge the fandom is as a whole. Just look at Star wars. The things its fans have done are downright despicable (driven *numerous* actors to abandon social media and some to even consider suicide) but that's something almost (and unfortunately) inescapable with such a huge gathering of people. It sucks, but it is what it is and you shouldn't keep yourself from experiencing a piece of media you might potentially enjoy and maybe even love just because other people who also like it are shitty.
Tbh the fandoms main issue isnt even degeneracy or toxicity, it's just that the pacifist and genocide roots were pushed to much and spoiled the game for almost anyone, leading to them not actually experiencing the true creativity of the storyline. If RU-vid creators weren't practically bullied into this mindset, the game could have been so much more interesting on the internet, and would have led to players THEMSELVES discovering the pacifist route.
Something tells me a fan base that skews young is also going to be more "toxic". 14 year olds have no chill or shame lmao. I suspect this is why the Steven Universe fandom had its awful reputation as well.
“despite everything, it’s still you” is one of the most touching lines i’ve ever heard in a video game also, i feel like it makes sense for flowey to seem over the top edgy because he really is just an angsty teenager
this is actually a pretty common mistake, a lot of people go into the mettaton fight before finishing all of the enemies, and I think it was intentional. Undertale is mostly linear, you go to the next room to progress, but in that room, since you came from the elevator, you need to go back a room to finish grinding. Impatient people might think Mettaton will count or that they can kill him and then kill the rest of the monsters, and then ruin an entire genocide run and have your experience.
Also, the final 2 enemies you need to spawn, even though they're normal random encounters, are explicitly mercenaries hired by Mettaton, so it'd make logical sense for them to split after he's already been killed.
i mean the thing about flowey is that he’s, well, insane imagine you suddenly live in a world where your actions don’t have consequences. where if you hurt someone, you can just undo it without them knowing. you can, and do, try scenario after scenario, and it doesn’t matter. nothing matters. wouldn’t you go a little insane too? but then imagine if suddenly you no longer had that power because some toddler got in the way. you might do some wild things to make sure you stay in control. that’s flowey’s character. and it’s incredibly interesting
not only that, but also the kid is a new thing. He said it himself that he couldn't predict us, so he might as well wanna have some fun before we go. That's why he didn't want us to finish the game (get Asgore soul), bc he would go back to that life where nothing new happened
Also Asriel’s, still a literal child which is why he’s so crazy, and edgy, kinda like a callback to Toby Fox, with his earthbound Halloween hack he thought by making Doctor Andonuts, evil, and having him cuss you out, since he was a edgy teen that loved earthbound, and thought he was cool because Giygas stuff was spooky to him.
Honestly, the Pacifist run "Despite Everything, It's Still You" still hits me hard since Frisk has still gone through so much. In all the battles apart from one, you can die. Frisk has had people angrily and intentionally try to kill them, even when they're desperately trying to figure out how to show Mercy. And the thing is, Frisk's a kid. Their sprite makes it impossible to ignore. But (in the way I played it) that little kid has so much determination to show Mercy, to be kind, even with all these monsters who have hurt them. It's impactful for me. They've gone through a lot, but they're still holding on, haven't let it warp them.
Frisk isn’t the literal abomination of mercy. They can be a literal sadistic lunatic to the point even Genocide Chara says that Frisk is a person with a wrecked sentimentality or something along those lines.
@@aeshaahme3774ok you're right but unless it's our choice the player aka us, and like flowey chara is talking to us not frisk, chara calling us perveted sentimentally is pretty much us killing destroy and recreate.
The arguably worst ending in my opinion is where you kill everyone except one person. Sans talks about how the underground, instead of no-one being alive at all, that there are just a few monsters left sitting in the bleak, hopeless underground with nothing left. The fact that they'll just sit in an empty space for the rest of their lives, with their only source of hope shattered, sounds way worse then having to jut not endure it and have been killed along with everyone else. And it also hits you with the fact that YOU are the reason that it's like that. You're responsible for destroying everything those monsters cared, loved, and hoped for. Entirely YOUR decision.
Considering that Hope is HP in the game lore, these guys won't have too long to live They will die all alone, never seeing the Surface, in despair and agony Truly messed up ending
It's like having a completely insane cartoon villain that wants to kill everyone, or a villain that still has their humanity despite doing horrific actions. The latter is scarier because they still have their humanity
@@rogue123987 had to look it up to be sure, and yes, it says nothing of the sort on the wiki, however, I remember, while playing the game and reading the stories and entries, monsters of the past, being imprisoned, started to lose hope and falling down There, playing, I made the connection between HP (hit points) and Hope, because losing both made monsters die So yeah, I guess that's a headcanon
Fun fact: I’ve seen reviews of people hating on the ost. Let that sink in. Another fun (can this even be considered fun?) fact: I saw this one review from a guy who’s a big rpg fan (or just older games), just stuff like Ocarina of Time. Apparently, his daughter was a fan of Undertale, and his interest piqued. According to him: the graphics suck, the story sucks, the characters suck, the music is mediocre, and it is terrible compared to games like “OoT”.
@@jamesverner9132 I don’t actually remember where, but you have to really dive deep into the web to find some. Here’s some other things people hate on: The graphics - Understandable, but Toby wasn’t particularly an artist The characters - Eh, you can’t really hate on it, but it’s your opinion The story - W-what? How do you hate on it? Gameplay - It’s an indie game. It literally says it in the genre section. Toby tried to make it distinct from most RPGs. DID YOU EVEN READ THE DESCRIPTION YOU IMBECILE?! Fandom - the fandom does not directly influence the game whatsoever, and therefore is irrelevant This wasn’t directed towards you, but more to whoever wrote those reviews. I just wanted to give you a taste of the Undertale Hatom.
@@haze5069 You don't make sense. Saying That Toby fox made weird gameplay wouldn't excuse the fact it's bad to someone who thinks it is. Intent doesn't matter if it turned out bad. I don't think it did, but at least say something that actually follows
@@jbdbibbaerman8071 op. Sorry. My brain has been somewhat degraded for a while, so now I feel like an idiot. You have full permission to diss my improper grammar.
This video is proof why you shouldn't base your enjoyment on something because of its fandom. If that were the case, some of the best stories and characters ever created would just be ignored completly.
@@KosTis I second that For me, stoy-wise Undertale is second only to Mother 3 I just can't get over its narrarive ant usage of different characters in different chapters, all its characters and all... Yeah, for me it's just THAT good.
@@KosTis nice, I'd say it's third favourite for me First is Outer Wilds, just a pure emodiment of the ideals of exploration and understanding that I try to live my life by. The ending also somehow managed to break me even more than Undertale's Second is minecraft, because it shaped who I am as a person and fueled my creative juices throughout my childhood and for that I am eternally grateful
NEVER let one bad apple ruin your enjoyment of something. SEPARATE THE FANDOM FROM THE SOURCE MATERIAL. I never played undertale, but it's not because of the fandom at all. Heck, I'd join that hellscape any day if it means I can make friends that enjoy the same things as me. I just never played it cause I'm LAZY AS HELL. Please. Just ignore the bad things and enjoy whatever you want to enjoy.
@@KosTis Exactly the same with me. I put off playing Undertale for years because of the fans, but when I did finally played it… It was a true experience. The fact that the ENTIRE OST was made with stock instruments and VGM soundfonts even inspired me to start making music of my own. It’s my third favorite game (behind OMORI and Chrono Trigger) and it’s so, so incredibly done for a (very nearly) 1 person game.
When you were talking about how if you went through a full genocide run, you'd just chalk it up to being possessed by Chara, it reminded me of my little head-canon about them. That Chara doesn't actually "control" any of your actions in the in-game narrative. And that they've always been there, ever since you fell down for the first time. It's only after you've slaughtered so many monsters that the red text begins to appear because Chara is being polluted by your choices. If Chara was truly evil, as most think, then why didn't they do anything in your first run? or your thousandth (if you ever played that many)? Because it's only when you make the conscious choice to kill and pollute their soul when they appear and try to help you achieve the goal you were aiming for.
Your theory in video format : ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-MYHXpdNqdGs.html And I makes me sick to think of it any other way because it removes culpability from a game that is so painfully aware of the irl players influence. Putting it on chara does the game a disservice.
I disagree with that headcanon, but I think it could make for an interesting and actually rather effective different takeaway than I had. You don't need to read this wall of text at ALL but if you wanna hear my take then go ahead! It's more about Frisk than Chara but it does relate I always thought Chara and Frisk serve as contrasts to each other, and that the Player has no real role within the story. Frisk IS the player. The save file is hers, even if she doesn't serve under her own name. "Despite everything, it's still you." It's still Frisk, who saw the True Lab or killed some monsters or whatever she did this time. Chara only takes over during a genocide run because she can't influence Frisk without specific circumstances. I imagine Chara to have been a fairly childish person, personally, and sees monsters as no better than humans postmortem--and Chara hates humans so... uh oh. Frisk does start the run, cause she has the sick curiosity Flowey did, but she's corrupted throughout. And this "Frisk corrupted" part is no headcanon; look in a Neutral Route! Frisk's actions and feelings are influenced by her EXP and LOVE. She might lightly tap on the dummy and feel bad at LV1, but she might punch the dummy to next Tuesday and feel awesome about it! So I think the "dog food bag" idea was actually her reaction and not Chara's, since the Dummy supports this. The game is influenced by the fact Frisk has so much power as a freaking child. Her actions have consequences. With great power comes great responsibility. And if she doesn't act responsible... well... she loses her humanity. In my opinion, you are Frisk. You're not a guiding spirit. You're no teacher. You're just a kid. So with all this power... and around all these creatures you don't understand... will you treat them with respect? Will you see the humanity in them? Or will you lose your humanity? Cause the monsters don't recognize Frisk as a human during the Genocide route, and that's not just because she's possessed and corrupted by the ending. She's doing inhumane things. She doesn't deserve to be called a human anymore. But in the Pacifist and Neutral Routes? It's her. It's all her. Killing, befriending, what she doing? It's her. She still has a bit of her...somewhere, even in the worst neutral routes. (To me if Chara actually were corrupted she'd show up in non-aborted Genocide Neutrals. It's not really just the murder she wants, it's something completely underlying and different that's only possible in the Genocide Run. What do I think happens when a Genocide Route is aborted? Simple. Chara's fragile hold just shatters and she's relegated to narration because Frisk decided "hold up, no." I actually don't think Frisk realizes the change in herself fun fact) I love Chara and Frisk so much they're such good characters, and because I see Chara as a villain... I think she's an amazing villain, dear god. She's so good. I could talk about how awesome she is all damn day. If you did read this, thank you!!! If you didn't, you're not reading this right now I'd assume but I still wish you a nice day!
I mean, if you subscribe to the NarraChara theory, they did start telling you how many monsters are left and encouraging you (free exp with monster kid) once you clear out the ruins and make your intent clear. It's kinda a toss-up of being slowly possessed by them as you kill (assuming they have no power over you if you have no LOVE) or you messing them up with your actions as you kill cementing the idea that they were revived for power or if they simply support your every action but apparently, you still continue to have control up to Asgore where Chara kills Asgore themselves, so do with that what you will. In the end though...it's still you who did all of it. Either out of curiosity or completionism's sake or even out of hatred of the monsters, you still hit FIGHT. ...but yeah that's kinda a lot of judgement and I feel kinda bad every time I say it in case someone thinks it's a judgement of morals but yeah, don't be placing the blame on Chara even if they are actually evil, which isn't confirmed lol. It's still you.
@@cocoabeanz6171 well I read your essay XD, felt I should bc I’m inclined to write essays as well so I thought id return the favor to a fellow stranger. Well I don’t agree 100% but your view has a lot of merit. Personally I feel whether the player is their own entity within the narrative or it’s frisk, Frisk/The player are the biggest contributors to the genocide run. It’s usually fueled by a sick curiosity as you said. (One thing that lead me to conclude that the player was it’s own entity influencing frisk was flowey calling out the “Sickos” who can’t do it themselves but watch someone else complete the genocide. I couldnt see how he would be talking about in game frisk in that moment since there’s no one else in game that would bare witness to frisk’s crimes. (My going theory is that when text says “YOU” they are talking directly to the player) Chara did nothing or could do nothing to make you start or stop killing, only telling you how many monsters were left in the vicinity. I honestly see her as more of a Flowey figure. I hated Flowey and killed him my first neutral run. I figured the underground was better off without him. Later I learned he was a complicated sick f*ck. That, if not deserving of forgiveness, had a side that was just hurt, scared and in need of a hug lol. Every single main character in the underground has done Ffed up things to qualify them as villains if presented differently (excluding Papyrus) and we get to know them, but we have to fill in some extraordinary blanks for chara. I think it’s almost tragic that she’ll never receive same humanization the others got that soften our vitriol towards them. Just one more slap in the face, to get judged by the one (frisk and or player) who pressed fight again and again and again. Do we even deserve our soul after such a stunt? Also do the Genocide route multiple times and chara’s dialogue isn’t that of a sick villain cheering us on. She calls us (or frisk) morbid, she suggests a different path and you have to wonder why If she is completely uncaring of her former companions. She also seems confused as to why you would do it again. All this to say, I believe chara can certainly be labeled an antagonist (like most everyone else) and has done atleast Flowey level crimes. But I find her to be more of a tragic character, than an out right villain.
The silver lining with toxic fandoms is the eventual content, years down the line, from people appreciating it for the first time after the initial toxicity kept them away. These videos eventually brings more people to appreciate these masterpieces and be able to discuss what they enjoyed long after the toxicity has died down. Sometimes great titles fade into obscurity due to lack of discussion after the initial wave, but the toxic fandom kept it so there's a population of people that knows the title yet haven't experienced it firsthand. In its own way, the toxic fandom ensured the longevity of the game.
The Undertale fandom has matured a lot from its toxic early days. It’s now one of the most welcoming places on the internet believe it or not. I’m not joking.
Yup. And a lot of the fan content still coming out is really good because people genuinely have a love for the game and its characters that keep them coming back to it, rather than just riding a trend or a fandom-wide phase of hyperfixation.
The genocide run broke me too, but completely intentionally. I got depressed for days after seeing Papyrus die, while telling you, his murderer, that he believes you're still a good person. I never cried so much over a fictional character before.
If you liked Undertale, i suggest playing OFF. It’s not as sentimental as Undertale [although it does have its sad moments here and there], but it’s very morbid. It’s not as well known, but it’s still a dark and weird yet intriguing RPG.
"oh boy he's gonna talk about the stuff that broke him, here we go again" *skips through the entire pacifist and neutral run, the parts that broke me "Huh. Was not expecting that."
Undertale is something that will forever be special to me because it got me into gaming. Is it the best thing ever? No. Does the fandom suck? Yes. But it’s such a cool game. Edit: also the music hits different
I honestly think the fandom these days is pretty aight. It's been 5 years and the childish ones have moved on to like Friday Funkin, while the people that are still here actually appreciate the game in a decent manner. The weird AU's have passed, Sans Undertale is finally dying down, and most fans are people that just really enjoy the beauty of the game
I got undertale last year through Xbox live, and only knew that sans was a meme and that you kill no one or everyone. I decided to go the nice way first, and it took me maybe two weeks. Meanwhile, in my personal life, I was working on being a better person. Nicer, more appreciative, but firm in my beliefs. The guitar chords at the start of "Undertale" made me tear up, but then I saw myself in the mirror, and I had to put the controller down and sob. I've struggled with mental health, I'd been in terrible relationships and toxic households, and as a result didn't really have an identity. I had been starting to discover myself. And there it was, "Despite everything, it's still you". This game didn't break me. It reminded me I've always been whole.
I think your experience is what Toby intended but because almost everyone started the game with the dont kill anyone knowledge and told everyone else, it stopped the true reflection of the game from being seen
Average Undertale fan: “In this world, it’s kill or be killed!” Average Undertale enjoyer: “Despite everything, it’s still you.” In all honesty, Undertale is a well made game. Even if some characters or parts of the story/lore don’t tickle your fancy, it’s still worth trying out.
@@J.NeiraAuthor lmao the undertale fanbase is known to be toxic. Saying I dont want to be associated with that toxicity is not 'disgusting'. Though reading the tone of your message makes me think you are offended because you're apart of that toxic fanbase. Makes sense.
Sob story that no one cares about but here goes: I played this game in december of 2020, when I was at my lowest point in A WHILE. I have had trauma that I had to go to a therapist for that didn't feel as heavy on me as everything going on back then felt. I used to be part of the fandom back when the game was huge and I was in 7th grade. I had totally forgotten about that line of dialogue when you interacted with the mirror, and after it showed up, I had to save the game and get up from my laptop to bawl like a toddler. A short time after it was almost new years and I was away from home for 3 days with my friends. In one of those evenings I felt a panic attack incoming and I just had to get somewhere where I could be alone for a minute. When I went back, I took a second to look in the mirror to see if it was that obvious I had just cried my eyes out. It was, but the second I looked into the mirror, my brain went "despite everything, it's still you". After months of no therapy, after feeling like a disappointment and a burden, after months of enduring verbal abuse, after being essentially denied going to my dream college for reason outside of my control, after everything, it was still me. I couldn't believe I finally picked up that game and it coincidentally was the perfect time for me to do so. It's safe to say, the game and that line especially heavily affected me as well.
Some of the text in this game is burned into my mind's eye. *but it refused* is something i whisper to myself when i feel so broken that i dont want to go on.
I just can’t understand why people don’t go into a single player game because of the fandom. It’s like refusing to eat pasta because you had a bad trip to Italy.
I can understand it to an extent. When a loud and annoying group of people keeps going on about how this thing is "a masterpiece" and "the best thing ever", people often tend to subconsciously discredit their opinion due to their behavior. They think that particular thing can't be as good as they're being lead to believe, and as such, they don't want to give it its fair chance
Chara was what broke me. Not their scene at the end of the Genocide Run, but the conversation with Asriel about them, after his boss fight. You can find him in the first room of the game, all the way back in the Ruins-I won't spoil it, because it's genuinely something worth experiencing for yourself, but...it puts quite a bit into perspective. One of their comments from the Genocide Run is asking where the knives in Toriel's house are, and after learning about what exactly Chara was trying to achieve when they fell into the Underground, it shifts from a somewhat eerie, foreboding line to...something utterly heartbreaking. Chara was a child. They were a flawed, messed up kid who had something unspeakable happen to them, who genuinely loved the Dreemurrs and the monsters, to the point where they intentionally poisoned themselves just to give them a chance to be free. I'm of the belief that the "demon that comes when you call it's name," isn't Chara at all, it's _you._ After all, it's explicitly clear that, while they are somewhat meant to reflect your own actions (end of the Genocide Run comes to mind), they are also a person in the narrative-even more so than Frisk. They have their own name, their own thoughts, their own story, and they came to the Underground long before either you or Frisk did. It's not like they're forcing you to kill anyone, or do anything you don't want to. There are a few moments in the Genocide Run where you could argue otherwise, but that could also just as easily be Frisk. I couldn't complete the Genocide Run. I tried twice, but killing Papyrus shattered me. There's something called the Flowey Wayback Machine that I used though, to add the file after you complete a Genocide Route to my game, so I could complete a True Pacifist Run with it. I never saw it as a bad ending for anyone but the Player-everyone gets a happy ending, and Chara gets to be with their family again...but you aren't a part of it, anymore. And you know what? I'm okay with that. I know it's just a game, and that it doesn't actually matter in the grand scheme of things...but it matters to them, so that's enough for me.
That’s a cool take on the post-genocide pacifist ending! I always interpreted it as you accidentally unleashing the murderous version of Chara that you created on your monster family. I always assumed that all the monsters would die regardless of whether you did genocide or pacifist after that, but it is possible that Chara just wanted to see their family again.
@@Malikakrispil lol you technically didn't ask for their story but the main theme is how this game or a specific moment in the game affected you greatly, so if you're unable to feel that way towards the game then why are you here?
@@Malikakrispil dude they can express their opinion and experiences they don't need to ask someone to express it and they were saying that they weren't asking for someone to feel sorry for a fictional character but they didn't mean it in a rude way they just wanted to share their opinion
Kinda feels like some of the community of Undertale gets a bad rap. Don’t get me wrong, it’s pretty bad, but sometimes a person or a group makes something truly great.
@@glendarjj3991 I am still in the fandom and I can say that is true, tbh If you know where to hang out there is usually no toxicity at all (atleast that was my experience)
This is why Undertale is a masterpiece to people who played it blind. Yet seems generic to those who played with the context. You need no expectation, and it truly floors you
somehow I managed to avoid spoilers for almost 5 years without any intent of playing the game, and when I finally played it blind, I adored it to pieces.
It's an example of the fandom loving the game so much and spreading it everywhere, that it ruined it for people who hadn't played it before with all these spoilers and learning about characters in the wrong way that game set up. You shouldn't know that Undyne is a fun character, because she's introduced as a massive threat and foreshadowed throughout most of the early game. The best way to show someone the game is to just simply ask them to play it, and tell them that it's a short game, they can get it done with fairly quickly.
@@NinjaPickle yes!!!! (Spoilers obv) Other notable parts I really enjoyed after playing blind was the final boss fight with mettaton (I had seen that robot around but I didn’t know the CALCULATOR turned into THAT GUY) , not being able to spare asgore the first playthrough, and temmie village. Also alphys’ secret was really cool too!!!!
@@NinjaPickle also yes how I ended up playing it is my brother made me a steam account and bought it for me for a birthday present and we played it together for a bit (we beat toriel and papyrus). He simply recommended it to me and told me it was a short and fun game, the rest I had no idea what I was in for (I just knew it was inspired by earthbound)
I think you touched on something that has been a huge problem I see in interpretations of stories, especially recently. Redemption arcs are seen as things people have to deserve, like there's a bar of how bad you can be before you deserve to be left to the wayside. I really loved that because you missed killing two monsters, you got to experience something that I think is really important. Being redeemed or seeking a redemption arc in storytelling isn't about the character deserving forgiveness, it's about choosing to be a net positive. Even though you did all of those awful things, you realized that you were still the same person, and you wanted your actions to change and reflect that. You realized that there was still a chance for you. If the game boxed you in saying "You're a bad person because you killed someone so you have to continue the genocide route," the whole underground would've suffered because you had to keep making the same choices you always have. If they would've stopped your progression in the story, you wouldn't have had the chance to help anyone else in the Underground. The reason why I gave Flowey mercy isn't just because I don't want to stoop to his mindset of kill or be killed, I also wanted to make sure that Asriel had an opportunity to continue his story, to maybe one day come back to some semblance of himself and do good. Redemption arcs aren't about deserving forgiveness or somehow making up for your crimes. You really can't. They're about people who have made bad choices deciding that the best way they can have a positive influence on the world is not be punished or put in prison, it's changing and doing good.
I dunno if I agree with that. Redemption arcs aren't just about a character flipping for no reason and doing good, you need to properly set up their reasons for wanting to do good and you have to have them consistently trying to be good and help others, otherwise it ain't much of a redemption.
I think you cannot have true forgiveness when you deserved it. At this point it's just kinda justice. But if someone decide to not hold over you that you've wronged them and give you a second chance even if you may not deserve it, then it is a true forgiveness which has a much bigger impact.
I kinda imagine them hanging out in disbelief confusion and sorrow in the empty shallow mirrage of what the underground once was together and alone for centuries, contemplating on their seemingly trivial last standing life's. Wondering, whether there ever was someone else other than them left breathing. Whether there was ever any meaning to their survival, and why? That is if they ever fully noticed the cause for their sudden lack of by-passers and acquaintances. Maybe they both or one of them think the others went on a unreasonably long holiday trip. Either way, I'd sound kinda sad to me. Or certainly quite confusing and lonely- god knows how one would feel. It would certainly leave a incredible baggage of mixed feelings and emotions.
This is why I think the neutral routes are the most overlooked, underrated parts of Undertale. No one is ever going to play a neutral route intentionally, because they don't fit in the typical "good ending" or "bad ending" category. They're only going to be encountered if the player makes a genuine mistake, so when the game scolds them for it, they KNOW that its really their fault and not just part of the route. Through experiencing the neutral route, the pacifist and genocide routes become all that more powerful. Unfortunately, the Internet spoiled the routes, taking away from the personal experience of discovering them on your own and redeeming your murderous actions. That's why people were so attracted to Undertale when it was shiny and new, but as time went on, the novelty wore off. Only in rare situations like this are those old feelings captured again.
I get that I'm the minority here (though I don't really know why), but, given that Undertale was an RPG, when I played it I went by my morals. And, if, like me, you aren't a pacifist IRL, you're gonna get the neutral route because every monster encounter (except Toriel, cause she won't ever actually kill you) qualifies as self-defense. And so I naturally was mad at the neutral ending. It was like Toby Fox punching me in the face and saying "Oh, you made Asgore pay for the murder of the six humans? And you defended yourself from beings who tried to kill you? Here, have a passive-aggressive ending that barely makes any sense, and ThInK aBoUt WhAt YoU'vE dOne!". Like, how does Undyne forget the fact that I not only didn't kill her, but helped her escape when she was about to overheat (I did so because I figured if I killed her the monsters would only think more strongly that her slander was actually the truth, but there's no way she would know that)? How does a large part of the Underground have not an ounce of loyalty to the rightful queen? Why the heck didn't Sans and Papyrus not remain loyalists to the end, even though they most knew that humanity did not deserve such hatred? Needless to say, I have no intention of going back and doing either of the other routes. If Toby Fox wanted me to go back and get the "good ending" he wouldn't have insulted me for following my morals and getting the ending I did.
Undertale will always be a personal favorite game of mine, not only because it was an amazing experience, but that it also inspired me to play other iconic RPGs, like FF7 and the Mother trilogy. These are games that I will treasure for the rest of my life, and if it weren't for Undertale, I don't think I would've been interested enough in the genre to play them.
Technically Undertale, is a action RPG, but i get what you mean, though in my case i have always loved RPG’s, i even do roleplaying online due to that love.
I feel that. Before Undertale, the only RPG I really enjoyed was Chrono Trigger. Now, because of Undertale, I found games such as Earthbound and OMORI which are also so so cool. Thank you, Toby Fox.
Yep Undertale is special to me cause it's inspired me to play more indie titles and rpgs in general that are possiblity better than Undertale imo. Undertale is on my list of my favorite rpgs ever (even I don't love it as much as I did years ago when I was crazy fan and ngl the ost is possiblity the bigger strengths of the game)
Personally speaking, I glossed over the “Despite everything, it’s still me” line the first time. It only gained meaning in the second playthrough, my Pacifist playthrough. By that point, I had context for what it’s meant in-story and I played two playthroughs back-to-back, so the journey felt much longer and more emotionally satisfying. Undertale hit me so hard that I felt like I grew as a person, and even if it didn’t, it encouraged me to be more thoughtful and deliberately kind.
Big same. I did a some-kills Neutral run first and wanted to see if there was a better outcome. I think it really does hit harder if you're not doing a no-kill Neutral because you were told to, but rather are playing in whatever manner best suits you.
Don't force people to play a game the "right" way. Let them play the game *their* way. Let them have their own fun and heartbreaking experiences. I hope someday people can learn to do this more. It's a shame so many people forced others to play Undertale the "correct" way, it's honestly disgusting. Playing them the wrong way is one of the best parts of RPGs.
Alphys is my favourite. At first, I thought of her as a really unexpected and funny friend, making me laugh and helping me all throughout Hotland. When Mettaton told me that she was a liar and had been playing me for a fool... I didn't believe him. I thought he was lying to make me be against her. When she said she "had been lying to me" I thought for a second that it meant that Mettaton was being honest... only for her to tell me that I had to kill Asgore. I had decided to go on a pacifist route, mostly because I knew about it and wanted to show Flowey that HE was the idiot who didn't know how this world worked. So the idea that I had to kill Asgore got me pretty worried. After that, I beat the first neutral ending. All well, I cried, because I cry at almost every emotional scene of a piece of art I enjoy. Then, going back to do actual pacifist, I was faced with the real Alphys: a person who has made many, many mistakes, and is drown in guilt every day. I came to terms with the fact that she lied to me, but I forgave her easily, because I had fun with the charade she made. Then came The true lab. Key piece for my experience: I'm a huge, HUGE chicken when it comes to videogames. I can't beat a horror game without someone keeping me company or, if I feel brave enough, my favourite stuffed animal on my lap. I was pretty scared in there. I didn't know anything, and fear often comes from the unknown. But that was what it was all about: fear. It all changed when I found Snowdrake's mother. Up until then, all amalgamates were scary. But she was genuinely sad. Broken pieces of people glued together. That was the essence of that plot point to me. When I finally saw Alphys, I felt really bad for her. I know guilt can be hell. But I forgave her. She made mistakes. Yes, she made a lot more than Undyne or Papyrus, but she did it from a kind place. To me, she seems, ironically, the most human character of all. And reminds me of myself when I was younger and in a terrible emotional place.
I almost forgot about this and you had to remind me You had to move your finger on your keyboard to write this out. I hope you are happy with yourself, I really do, since you had to make me remember the exact reason I hate all of humanity Go play Danganronpa or something now, I dunno just keep Papyrus out of it
I think that perhaps... Flowey being an edge lord is a sort bit of the point, It is a child trying to act edgy and scary after being trapped in a body that can only feel anger and fear, so of course, it will seem cringe to most people. HOWEVER, that is just my interpretation of his character and other's interpretations of flowey's character are also valid.
i like ur interpretation, at the end of the day chara, frisk, and flowey r all kids. of course flowey is going to be a cringey edge lord, he’s a kid with a lot of trauma.
Don't forget that through Flowey's own words we find out that he was alone with nothing to do for some time! No wonder this smiley flower kid wanted to show off and try to impress a new face.
it's not interpretation, it's EXACTLY his character I could write a whole ass essay describing how this edgy wannabe is probably the best character in the game
I put this comment on Super Eyepatch Wolf’s video titled “What The Internet did To Undertale” (which I highly recommend) but I think it should be here too. It’s more focused on my experience with the fandom than the actual game. But damn if this game didn’t rip out my heart, break it, and piece it back together. No matter your opinion or experience with the game, I respect it. I was in the depths of the undertale fandom at it's peak. It was scary, it was exciting, it was toxic, it was accepting, it was the only thing I had going for me. Undertale was the seed and the fandom was the ridiculously large tree that grew from i. Everyone in the fandom was just at confused. There was so much horror, the needle incident, the incest ships, the pedophile ships, the arguments, the death threats, it was all so bad. But at the same time, damn. The art that came out of it. The animations, the stories, the paintings!! It was overwhelming beautiful, high quality, and plentiful. Anything you wanted, you got, and there was no other fandom like it. I'm not saying the fandom was one way or another. I'm not trying to make a point. So essentially, screw you undertale fandom. For being so gross, including me. And also-thank you undertale fandom. For giving a home and a purpose to those who didn't have one. Including me.
@@smolspooder i assume you haven't heard of it before because of your wording, one time, in a convention, someone baked a cookie for an artist, and inside it, was a needle, said artist had to go to the hospital because of that.
at first when you chose "Akechi" I was like eeeeh I feel like "Adachi" would be more appropriate for that type of run, but the sudden redemptive swing at the end actually got me, congratulations you played everyone, even yourself.
Legit as soon as he said the last "Despite everything, it's still me." Loud Thunder erupted. I never even thought about how getting accidental neutral may be a mistake from a game wise. But a sign in terms of the incredible moral debacle of Undertale. Even sparing one life, keeps you as the person you fell down here as. Someone with a choice to kill or to not kill, rather than a demon hellbent on murder.
Tbh I feel like the mirror line still fits in pacifist because even though you were faced with people wanting to kill you constantly, you still showed mercy
exactly. Despite the struggle and pain and fear and difficulty, you still managed to extend mercy. You stayed yourself instead of becoming an empty husk, like Flowey.
It's well-known among the theorist side of the fandom that Toby makes lots of hints towards the player. Dialogue and circumstances like that become plentiful and incredibly noticeable when you look for them. It can be as monumental as the circumstance you faced, or as simple as a certain skeleton changing which eye he winks with. Something else would be that Toby knew players would name themselves something important to them, likely their own name. When you open the game again after finishing a true pacifist route, Flowey appears. And he tells you of one last threat. You. Because he knows of your power, and he sees the very real possibility that you could end up just like him. That's the end of this PSA from your local Fandom Tour Guide. Any questions you have about the fandom, I'll gladly answer. Wanna avoid the toxic side like the plague? I'll tell you what to stay away from. Enjoy your stay! We're happy you gave it a try.
I adore Flowey, partially because of Asriel, in fact he's my personal favorite character. So I was kinda miffed when you said you didn't like him at first. Then you explained your story with your near-genocide-neutral route and how it relates to Flowey. And HOLY COW that was a gut-punch and I think I like him more now. Someone who has done horrible things yet...still has been granted mercy. Its absolutely amazing and this reminded me of why I adored Undertale
I’m literally just obsessed with this damn goat, i want so much art of him in many different contexts i have a female Asriel, because of how much i like him, plus i love the genderswap since he can rock any gender, and be awesome, and i can’t deny Hyperdeath Asriel, is just a hunk I’m not sorry to admit it, but fuck that smirk alone gets me, sorry if i sound like a creepy fan, but he’s one of the only guys to really make me go mmmm fuck, but he’s definitely my favorite for lots of reasons i even feel like i spiritual content with him no not like some strange otherkin Chris Chan, crap, just i feel like I’m him, or just wanted to be like him, and adult Asriel’s, the monsters equivalent to Kurt Cobain, i mean come on, i definitely think deltarune Asriel’s, going to be grungey looking, yet cool like those grunge heroes.
Asriel is like, my all-time favorite character. So Flowey contributes to that too. Schaffrillas talking about his parallels with Flowey really tugged at my heartstrings.
That is how I felt too. I've really grown appreciate Flowey(and Asriel) as a character over the years, one of the contributing factors being how he serves as a sort of mirror to us the players.
I made my friend play this game yesterday, he was refusing because the game was too cringe but I made him play through pacifist, and of course he cried during asriel dreemurrs’ boss
“At least I haven’t heard of anyone who had these exact circumstances happen to them.” I had pretty much the exact same experience, except I spared one single enemy. I spared monster kid because I played the pacifist route first, and he was so kind I thought maybe I could spare him and get away with it. Unlike Schaff I rage quit and didn’t go past Sans’ dialogue, so I didn’t have the same unique experience as him, but definitely very, very similar circumstances. Crazy how everyone can experience the exact same game in very unique and different ways.
This is why the medium of gaming is a lot more special to me than movies. At the end of the day, we sometimes just see the same movie and we can agree or disagree if something was objectively good or not. But with games, what makes it special, is that the experience you’ve done with, was yours alone. Even if it’s telling a story that is common to every player, it’s a completely different story and meaning on the steps you took to reach to important points of a narrative in a game. And through those steps you took for yourself, even if in this case are accidental for the topic of this video, were meaningful to you and can be meaningful to anyone who’s interested in knowing your experiences. We can agree or disagree whether something is good or not but no one can take away the experience you’ve obtained through your volition.
Admittedly i watched playthroughs first so it kinda felt like a movie to me, but still even watching a game being played is more engaging than a movie, even if sometimes i really get into a movie like Blade Runner, do to the slow burn, and intense yet kinda underwhelming climax at least in 2049.
Video games are an incredibly difficult storytelling medium to work with. Whereas novels and films have one specific narrative, video games that emphasize autonomy and player choice have dozens of potential narratives. This is a problem for games that offer too many big choices. If a game offers too many “big” choices, then the choices MUST have small impacts because writers can’t possibly account for the consequences of 100 big decisions. But this kind of defeats the purpose of the whole “your choices matter” aspect of RPGs. Why offer choices that don’t really matter? Undertale is brilliant because it features three endings determined by three big decisions (spare everyone, spare some people, spare nobody) that are further comprised of a thousand small decisions (kill/spare Toriel, kill/spare Papyrus, kill/spare Undyne, etc). Because of this plot structure, every single decision in Undertale matters. When the player reaches the end of a playthrough, he can look back on his journey and appreciate the colossal impact of a thousand small decisions he made. On the other end of the spectrum, we have Mass Effect 3. In that game, the ending is determined by a single monumental decision at the end of the narrative- not a thousand small decisions throughout the narrative. This is why everyone dislikes ME3’s ending. Tldr: Undertale makes a big splash with a thousand small decisions while most RPGs make a small splash with a few “big” decisions.
Another thing that I have thought of as a less intentional theme is how close you can get to losing control of everything and giving in to evil but pulling back at the last possible moment can save you, it. is. never. too. late.
This is the effect that Les Misérables had on me. It made me understand the importance of mercy in a way that I had never been able to before. The bishop showing Jean Valjean mercy after what he had done to him shook me to my core because it made me realize that I wouldn’t have acted the same way. This message becomes even more important because it helped me understand what it truly means to treat others as Christ did. To care about how our actions affect others as much as if not more than how they affect ourselves.
The thing that broke me playing Undertale was the multiple variations of the phone call the player gets depending on who they kill through the game. Never kill Undyne, but not Papyrus. Never.
Papyrus becomes king of the underground and wonders what happened to Undyne. Sans tells Papyrus that Undyne went on vacation, when in reality she is dead, and Papyrus reaffirms to you that she hopes Undyne is having a great time and that she deserves a break, *but he wishes she was here.* Papyrus is left living a lie that, lets be honest, will eventually crumble to nothing revealing the painful truth.
The thing with Undertale is that if you just play a pacifist route you'll have a fun, jolly time. It's a good game! But when you play the genocide route you really APPRECIATE those characters for the first time and genuinely feel awful killing heroes. It's not fun to play genocide route, there's really only two good bosses near the end and other than that it's a long boring TEDIOUS grind--but it is isn't supposed to be fun, I think? It makes you think a bit about life and games in general. So it's kind of strange having half of a game be pleasant and fun and the other half be unfun on purpose, but that's what made Undertale stand out for so many people. It made them think or feel something by the end of it. And it's one of those rare games where after you've completed everything it doesn't really feel like you can just go back and play it normally again... sure, share it with a friend and see their reactions or whatever, but going back to the jolly/fun time after murdering all those characters feels weird.
Or you can be like me, who stopped playing after True Pacifist Route, because he doesn't want to hurt characters he's grown to love, so he keeps his Pacifist save to hope they have better lives out there. PS: I know they are fictional characters, doesn't change the fact I want those characters to be happy.
And the game doesn't want you to be able to go back to the jolly old time, if you play pacifist again after doing a genocide they have the silly little "but he was STILL EVIL ALL ALONG" thing. You sell your soul to chara at the end but you already did that a while ago.
@@lilixpictures6128 I totally get that also. If I ever did play Undertale, I don't think I could do a Genocide run. I'd probably do a blind Neutral run then a guide Pacifist, but I would just keep that save after.
The main villain is characterised up to this point (most clearly in the neutral ending) as completely irredeemable, because they lack a soul, and consequently the ability to love. But when they absorb all the other characters, they also start vicariously feeling their love for you, which is ultimately what redeems him. That’s what gets me, I think, this triumph of kindness reminding people of who they were before tragedy twisted them, maybe that says more about me than the game - Ben “Yahtzee” Croshaw
I promised my friend I wouldn't play Undertale without her. She was so excited to get my reaction to everything because she knows this kind of stuff can really get to me and we planned on doing the whole playthrough drunk. She passed away in a car accident a week later and to this day I've never been able to play the game. 3 years have gone by and everytime I see it in my Steam library I honestly get teary-eyed. She was like a little sister to me and seeing the icon immediately takes me back to how ecstatic she was when I finally agreed. I miss you Tess....
It's like what atticus said in to kill a mocking bird: 'You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view . . . until you climb into his skin and walk around in it.' By leaving them two monsters alive you kinda got to go into flowey's shoes at the end of a neutral run when frisk spares him by sans doing the exact same thing to you
Are you by chance from some old RU-vid thing in the long ago where many people made Lego star wars accounts asking some RU-vidr to do a, probably a let's play or something, video on the games? Is that from this channel or another? Or is your account entirely unrelated? Regardless, thanks for stirring up odd old memories of times gone by for this aging pile of meat.
Its rare that a game can break someone with only five words. How many people made the choices that led to those five words? How many people had mercy when they shouldn't have... How many people broke at their own mercy?
1:09 I don't really think the tonal shift is that bad after the battle with Mettaton EX? If anything, that battle, as fun and climactic as it was in the beginning and middle, ended on a pretty melancholic note as Mettaton fell apart and he got calls from his fans saying how much they'll miss him, with even Mettaton himself getting emotional; which made for a pretty soft and natural follow-up to a serious tone after you get to the New Home; at least in my opinion.
It definitely didn't seem tonally off to me. The game itself is an absolute tonal flip-flop, from the goofiest, dumbest, most silly characters saying their silly things one moment to a bone-chilling dialogue box that makes you shiver. That is a core piece of the game, and I think it's actually a massive bonus, not a negative.
