How will we know when Jesus is coming back? | N.T. Wright at UT Austin 

Not a Christian, but I actually kind of appreciated the Dispensationalism perspective for taking the Hebrew Bible more literally. I don't agree that the pre-trib rapture is in the Bible, but that's a similar kind of thing to the partial preterism of N. T. Wright. Both Dispensationalism and partial preterism will say that 1 Thess. 4 is talking about a different "coming" to Matthew 24:30. They can also then sometimes make a division in the Olivet Discourse where part of it is about one kind of "coming", and then it switches to speaking about a different "coming". So I would view this kind of inconsistency as a problem for both Dispensationalism and partial preterism.

@@Henry-yh6vv I have a question Henry, you say you’re not a Christian yet you study this stuff more than 99.9% of the professing church!! What might your interest in this subject be I’m really curious to know?

@@Henry-yh6vv Anyway dear friend. I can’t help you with 1 Thes 4. As a new Preterist myself that’s still a real problem passage for me to fully understand too but I do know that if we keep seeking, the Spirit WILL reveal these difficulties to us. That’s my testimony. Just keep going and things will be revealed to each one of us ‘at the appointed time’ on our individual journey.

@@Henry-yh6vv You are definitely correct though how Jesus switches thought mid flow. The best example I can think of is Nicodemus being ‘born again’ along with the woman at the well story and the dual meaning of ‘water’. We must always ask, is the subject we are reading to be interpreted physically or spiritually.

@@Powerslave-gi7nx Hi, I got interested in Christian eschatology from a skeptical perspective, and so I got books on some of the different positions.

Cuz of money

You do know King James had a English version written and it was done by Jews and Greeks neither were Christians. Never in all his days on earth did any of the disciples call him Jesus. What's weird Jesus in Latin is pronounced "Hey Zeus". Did the Greeks get in a jab at King James?

@@JohnSmith-kr6ek Its called transliteration. It happens with all words passed from one dialect to another. Transliteration does not change the *meaning* of the name. Jesus still means "Yah's salvation"

@jeremyprovince4942...I don't know who could agree with your statement about Jesus.His central doctrine was horrible.He told men that he met to desert their wives children and animals and follow him.this cruel command would have left the deserted family heart broken and in a desperate struggle for survival in the harsh desert without the main provider who suddenly left.His reason for this he said was because the world would end during the lifetime of the apostles.He was cruel to demand that from uneducated desert tribesmen and he was wrong because his prophecy failed.Furthermore,Jesus did not mention anything that was not known at that time.He did not know the true age of the earth.he did not know the Americas and South pacific countries existed.He did not know that several other humanoid species that were our relatives but became extinct some 40,000 years ago. He did not tell the men to stop forcing their wives to sleep outside in a shed with the goats during their menstrual cycle. he did not even know enough about medicine to give us a talk on germ theory that would have prevented millions of people from dying from preventable diseases. there were more than 300 self proclaimed messiahs who were crucified by the Romans in that era.there is no reason to suggest that Jesus knew any more or was a better person than any of the others.it is high time we humans grow up and out of this bronze age nonsense.

@@clarkelaidlaw1678 Geez, I hope you don’t think this is how everyone cherry picks twisted interpretations. - jesus gave quite clear and simple teachings on how to live Life better, and ( briefest and clearest) most simply summarized all commandments as “ Love thy neighbor as thyself” - how can we “ find everyone” who translates this in the odd way you present? The related greatest commandment is to love the lord thy God, who is the Word ( Teachings of God) that point the Way, shine the Light, to live a more virtuous Life - which is exactly what Jeremy simply is pointing out. Whether you agree with any religion or not, it’s hard to understand why you see this so negatively. (You are accurate, though: Jesus neglected to tell us “not to run with scissors”)

lol, no kidding!

well, maybe it is time you state here what you know about the second-coming of Christ

Jim, Don't be deceived. Read for yourself. Mathew 24 and many places. What does it say to you?

Tim LaHaye Left Behind books and The Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsay did a number on a lot of people. Those people should Google how the rapture theory got started.

@@logic8673 It says to me Jesus prophesied the destruction of the Temple and the end of Judaism as they knew it.

​@@justnoted2995 The word "second" before 'coming' was brought in by translators. Christ alreády came and is ríght inside of us, waiting for the world to awaken and become aware of His indwelling presence. Col 1:26,27 'the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in (ín!) you, the hope of glory! We are the clouds, His holy temple, His sanctuary, His dwelling place .. and from out thís holy temple He will soon manifest His final appearances as 1Thes 4 have it! Jesus has made us óne with Himself at the cross! It's only the carnal mind that still pictures distance and separation. John 14:20 + 17:22,23

I would like him to comment on that.

@@robertbruce1552 Yes so would I especially about the meeting in the air bit. This as opposed to every eye will see him. Been inside clouds you cannot see out of them, let alone see into them.

@@robertbruce1552 He does teach on that and it connects very nicely with what he says above.

It's the Day of the Lord. What's the confusion?

@@daveharris9120 1 Thessalonians 4:16 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” The second coming (rapture) will be a noisy affair. Revelation 1:7 “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”

Yes Jesus did leave and Ge sent the Holy Spirit just as He promised.

Something unusual will happen before he returns, trust me it's not what anyone thinks

​@@youngmarciowould you share what you think it is? Or are you just saying you don't know either? Do you think we're supposed to recognise it coming?

​@@youngmarcio Amos 3:7

Jesus is coming in the clouds, every eye will see Him, if He appeared on a street corner, or parking lot, how could every see Him, will everyone be given x-ray vision to see through buildings and structures?

​@@TS-yd6cn...youngmarcio Doesn't know anything.

No lack of humility is this comment!

My friend if you have no salvation when he comes there’s no second chances, you can’t honestly think your going to be about life unregenerate and at enmity toward God and then Jesus will rock up with the trumpets blasting and you get in a bus to Jerusalem and get it sorted ?? Today is the day of salvation my friend today !! If you are not sorted before you hear that trumpet then you will never be in Gods presence ever, you will be separated from him though. Nt wright is classed by most evangelicals as someone to NOT listen too and is lost on many matters.

I had no trouble attaining salvation when I went to the cross as a sinner and believed in Him.

Indeed, His Spirit is always with us...

@@Bijbelstudies With the Resurrection, he showed he was not a body but spirit. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

@@robertdouglas8895 Actually He was both. That was the meaning of the incarnation. See 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

@@Bijbelstudies Since we are spirit, not flesh, we are created in the likeness of God. You can pretend you are separate from God if you want, but I don't.

@@Bijbelstudies Not just with us. In us. As us. One. 0 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

And his wife exclaims "Not Yet."

I love your reply. I have an incurable cancer, so have spent more time than I expected to, pondering what happens next and the value of a life cut short with all the prophetic words spoken over my life, all the sense of what God had called me to coming to nothing in this age. Old people have to live in the immediate shadow of their mortality, but rarely share how they feel about this. As a relatively young person, who has been through the refiner's fire more than I believed possible, very little of what I have read in the chat, makes sense. There are so many angles and hints in God's word that I suspect it is just slightly beyond our ability to comprehend. For me, I am constantly challenged by the idea throughout the old testament that we sleep in death. An idea that was echoed by Paul. I spend a lot of time sort of sleeping, but I would better describe it as abiding. It is a state of being with Christ. I wonder if this is more a picture of what will happen to us between death and resurrection.

Yeah, but the prophecies and warnings were not yet fulfilled, not even close.

He said not all of you will die before seeing my coming refering to John's vision of revelation. He also said in the time of the end there would be ways rumours of wars famines and earthquakes in various places. I sent think he implied it was soon but the disciples did

Wow, you've taught the Bible for 35 years?

Actually there is no one called a Bible scholar. Just pretenders to Bible knowledge. None of Jesus apostles had any human issued qualification. Only Paul had what can be called a human issued qualification. In fact, God hides the truth from these 'qualified charlatans' (Matthew 11:25).

@@tongakhan230 What are you talking about? Matthew 11:25 - At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. You are taking the verse out of context, egregiously. How are you any better than the biblical scholars? No, I think YOU are the pretender.

Thank you for this info!

​@@rallegra An enlightening and wonderful book is, "Climbing Parnassus: A New Apologia for Greek and Latin" (Wilmington, Delaware: ISI Books, 2002) by Tracy Lee Simmons. This author secured a masters in classics from Oxford University.

He knows what he's saying

TKs for life.

PPS, maybe you could convince the head of your order to buy Snowmass? Start a Taize without all that tricky French stuff. In America. In the mid 2020s. In the name of the King. Lord knows he's got the resources. #savesnowmass. "Then in the name of the King go find some old man with less lore and More Wisdom that still keeps some in his house!" -G-Unit, Houses of Healing, Return of the King. Big boy stuff. 😉 Peace, Eothain.

Excellent point. We often forget that. That's how it ends for the vast majority of humanity. However, it's not really the end because the soul/spirit has been separated from the body, and the body has to be reunited with the soul/spirit for us to be completely human once again. So there must be a moment when all of us are united with our bodies and face judgment.

so the world didn't exist before you were born? or, if you die as a believer should you're children's fate be sealed at that point, whether they're believers or not? or if the seeds of salvation that u've spread that bring fruit after you die should not longer count towards you're heavenly rewards?

The meaning is just that, in my view. I always say there will be 2 things that tell me (if we are still here) Christ is at the doorstep. The sun going black and red moon, and the Chinese Eastern armies on the border of Israel.

If God darkens the sun, the sun reflected by the moon will automatically be dark red. And people don't think about it, but God can do that, and make any adjustments necessary in the universe.

@@lindajohnson4204 Everything goes pitch dark when he comes back.

@@lorenzor124 But if the sun is pitch black, you can't see the moon as blood. The words are open enough to interpret in terms of reality like that. Pitch black I'd an extreme possibility, but it does not seem to be what is meant. Besides, this is before Jesus returns in the clouds, right?

@@lindajohnson4204 You are correct. My mistake was to say the moon will be red. Verse 29 says clearly it will NOT show light. So, I think it is a pitch darkness. And what a grand & terrifying entrance to blast into our dimension as a messiah warrior/conqueror. The level of terror for his enemies will be like nothing ever before.

Jesus has come. His presence began in 1914. That signaled his first sign. (Matthew 24:7) “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, Historians called it World War 1 (1914-18). The 1 (one) for obvious reasons. Though Jesus is present in Kingdom power, humans in general wouldn't pay any attention (Matthew 24:39).

That will be a great discussion.

He referred to Isaiah 13 and the fall of Babylon. A quick reading of that passage shows that Isaiah 13 is still yet future. I see your reasoning for saying the sun moon and stars symbolise Israel, but it’s hard to see that in Isaiah 13 or other passages. In my mind it’s better to take it literally with the sun moon and stars symbolising the sun moon and stars.

More likely the sun, moon and 11 stars symbolized his father, mother and 11 siblings (11 is hardly a coincidence), indicating Joseph was more important than any of them. That is why his brothers became jealous. His father clearly understood what he was implying. I dont think there's any need to go beyond that.

And we must totally reject whatever they say which doesn't agree with, and is in contradiction to, holy scriptures.

​@@JuliusKwedhionMarriage or your interpretation "of holy scripture "!

@@alexanderv7702 I agree, we must also reject your interpretation of holy scriptures if doesn't agree with, and is in contradiction to, holy scriptures. I have no qualms with you on that one.

Well, he looked upward simply because that's where his Father is and that's who he prays to.

I would point you to the postures of prayer described in the Psalms. Lifting your eyes is a common posture of praise and prayer.

Paul said even Satan can appear as an angel of light and we surely know Satan can say anything .. he is the Father of Lies after all. #JesusWordsOnly ✝️

Especially the present teachers who are into philosophies, theories and theologies of man, not based on the revelation of GOD but based on their own wisdom, and thereby they begin to scoff at scripture and anything that does not conform to their Doctoral theses and misguided scholarly conclusions.

Watch out, don't waste your life dreaming about a fictional nonsense. Heaven is behind a curtain, lols.

The words are clear in many passages. It is literal.

yep.the bible reads like the ravings of a madman.full of ridiculous claims and contradictions and falsehood.one thing that it does make clear is that there was a lack of institutions for epileptics and schizophrenics in Palestine at that time.

@@johnmichaelson9173 Oh but it is! It is right here and right where you are and 10 trillion light years away.

Yes!

You know, many New Agers and trance channeling fanatics speak of a similar thing occurring in the future. Am 'evacuation' or cleansing of the planet. Ships with space brothers will come and take certain people out of here. They even say that a great 'sound' will circulate the planet at the time! I suspect the Dark side knows about this coming rapture and is preparing accordingly. See 'Bringers of the New Dawn', 'Revelation of things to come' and 'Project Evacuation Earth'. These rapture deniers will collapse on their knees out of shock and terror after it happens. May they wake up soon.

The Second Coming and the gathering of the saints are all part of the same event. Not only was Jesus very clear about this in Matt. 24, Rev. 19 prophesies the same exact thing.

@@theeternalsbeliever1779 No, they are 2 different things. The UFO deception is part and parcel of covering up the coming disappearances. That could not happen at the 2nd Coming, only at some time before!

​@@theeternalsbeliever1779What does studying the end times without a proper understanding of Daniel's 70th week do? How does that effect a person's interpretation? What has happened with Daniel chapter 9? Why is it so important? Well so many scholars have said it was a prophecy for 490 biblical years. And 483 years were fulfilled when Messiah was cutoff in 33 AD. Then later the temple and the city was destroyed in 70 AD. And 7 biblical years are pending for the future of this world and then Daniel 9 24 will be fulfilled. Bible prophecy did not mention things that happened in the church age. The bible clearly hints Daniel 9 27 is future. Rev 11 2 says there will be a future 3rd temple in Jerusalem. Daniel 12 11 says the abomination of desolation will stop the daily sacrifice. 2 Thess 2 says the man of sin will enter the temple of God and demand to be worshiped as God. Rev 13 5-7 says a man will speak blasphemies and from that day have authority to continue 42 months over saints from all nations. Daniel 7 25 says the saints will be given into the hands of the antichrist for 3.5 years. Matthew 24 15 says the abomination of desolation will trigger the great tribulation that starts the worst time the world will ever see. So if you read Matthew 24 without a clear understanding of Daniel's 70th week, you really say the 2nd coming is the rapture. But with a proper understanding of Daniel's 70th week, knowing the world is headed for a covenant for 2520 days or 7 biblical years, you run into problems. The abomination of desolation has to happen on day 1261 of the 7 year covenant. And from day 1261, the saints are given into the hands of the antichrist for 3.5 years or 1260 days. Day 2520 will be the day of the 2nd coming immediately after the tribulation. The problem with those passages is that scripture cannot be broken. They are saints starting midtrib that start to be martyred on day 1261. And they will be given into the hands of the antichrist for 1260 days. Scripture will not be broken. Daniel 7 25 and Rev 13 5-7 will not be broken. There are no saints better than other saints. And there is no rapture on a day that will be known years before the event immediately after the tribulation. The problems come from the Fig Tree passages and the parable of the 10 virgins where no man knows the day or the hour. But the date of the 2nd coming will be known 7 biblical years before the event. If you read 2 Thess 2 and realize the man of sin is revealed in the temple midtrib, then you realize that the day of the Lord as birth pangs starts after that. And great confusion occurs with our gathering. But then with a proper understanding of Daniel's 70th week again there are problems. The saints are given into the hands of the antichrist for 3.5 years or 1260 days. And Daniel 9 24 occurs immediately after the tribulation on the last day. How can our gathering be any day in the 2nd half? So now you know what is restraining all this that is going to come unto the world. Our gathering is restraining all this. Then worldwide apostasy. Then the man of sin will be revealed midtrib.Then some unknown time in the 2nd half the day of the Lord judgments will start on the wicked as birth pangs and the wicked will not escape. These birth pangs will get worse and worse till the last day. But this will not break the Word of God with Daniel 7 25 and Rev 13 5-7. The saints will be given into the hands of the antichrist for 3.5 years. And the last day of the birth pangs immediately after the tribulation will be known 7 biblical years before the event. What happens when a person starts reading the book of Revelation. They see passages and Jesus coming in the clouds and on a horse. But again with a proper study of Daniel's 70th week there are problems. In the 2nd half Rev 13 5-7 occurs and the antichrist will have authority over saints from all nations for 42 months or 1260 days. And there is a trumpet in Matthew 24 27-31 and the angels gather His elect immediately after the tribulation. But this cannot break the Word of God. A person needs to figure out what day of Daniel's 70th week that trumpet will sound. This creates a huge problem. The book of Revelation only gives the antichrist authority to continue 42 months from the day he speaks great blasphemies. And Rev 1 7 says He comes on the clouds and all eyes will see Him. Meaning in Russia and China and Africa and North America and Japan and South America. Now it becomes supernatural when all the world can see the Lord and angels and heaven open. Zech 14 6-9 and Luke 17 23-37 along with Daniel 9 24 says it all ends on that day. All the wicked are destroyed on that day and that makes the bowl judgments supernatural after the entire world sees the Lord.

Jesus will not literally come as humans will never see him again (1 Timothy 6:16). His PRESENCE in Kingdom power was to be signaled by signs. The first was: (Matthew 24:7) “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, Historians call it the Great War and World War 1 (1914-18). That event started the last days for this system of things. The so-called rapture is about the remaining few CHOSEN ones who are still alive being put to death and transformed to spirit form in a blink of an eye. There will also be survivors of the coming war of change who will be the foundation of the New Earth (Revelation 7:9,10,14). (Psalm 37:29) The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it. The chosen few will be co-rulers with Jesus in God's heavenly Government (Revelation 5:9,10). Other righteous humans will live on earth as its subjects. Hope this is helpful.

Interesting. First time I've heard about the abomination of desolation being the construction of the Dome of the Rock.

AD 689 is the precise midpoint of the seven times of Israel’s tribulation / occupation by gentile (foreign powers). The period began with Babylon in Daniel’s day and finished in 1967 during the June, Six Day War. It was seven times the great years of the Solomon Temple era, which lasted exactly 365 years, where 365.24 is also the number of days in a solar year. The Daniel 8 and Daniel 9 prophecies intersect with the main timeline in very interesting ways, as do extra biblical historical and prophetic numbers. For more: ‘Seven Times: Egypt to Istanbul’

There are dispensations of eras. God has worked differently in these dispensations. It’s not hard to understand.

@@willpower6720 Absolutely but dispensational eschatology is very weak. The Rapture and 2nd coming of Jesus are the same event. Otherwise you have the 2nd Coming of Jesus and the 3rd.

Everybody does that though... try to fit the narrative to a best explanation.