He's seen and been on real trains, he does his reviews as accurate to the real life counterparts as possible while still being good for model railroads, hence why so many engines get bad marks for their looks or performance down the road
@@SamsTrains hey sam if you can make a brake van with real breaks are you able to make a steam engine that can puff real steam like the motorized trackmaster real steam thomas that everyone heard about????
First off, let me just say fantastic. This is brilliant. I would make 2 changes, subtle changes. I would go to the horizontal position on the solenoid and have levers that act on BOTH axles. I would also get rid of the paddles and just go for a drum design. You dont want the wheels to get flat spots from dragging on the track. The drum, while it may yet lock up the wheels, they wont lock up in the same position each time. If you just make a drum that goes on the axle that the solenoid then contacts the outside radius, it should work just fine.
Thanks so much Alex! Awesome ideas there too - though I would doubt you'd get flat spots from such infrequent use... maybe that'd be a good experiment idea? Lock up a wheelset and drag it round the track for hours to see what happens? Like the drum idea though! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains I would actually like to see that in an experiments video. I would say the constant friction would very lightly either rub down the wheels or enough heat from said friction would cause the wheels to flatten microscopically, maybe?
The issue with any flat spot, once you have one, it'll always stop on that spot and make it worse. Doubt there's anywhere near enough load to cause it here though.
For more braking power, put some more weight in it. If you put a bridge rectifier between the pickups and the solenoid, it will work whichever way round the DC voltage is (forward or reverse). A capacitor after the bridge rectifier will smooth out some of the PWM to the solenoid.
haha love it! Yes more weight would do the job, and the only issue with the rectifier would be the voltage drop - the coil was only just grabbing the shaft at 12v... a FBR might drop 1-2v, which would stop it working properly... I think DCC would definitely be the way to go... as a decoder could supply a full clean 12v straight to the solenoid! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains How about reducing or removing the spring and just letting gravity move it down? That should make it easier to activate at a slightly lower voltage.
Apparently Google knows I still love trains, despite not participating in the hobby for almost a decade! This was absolutely WONDEROUS to watch! Hell, I might would even toss 20 USD at you for a version your completely happy with. I agree that it's 'realistic'. After all, who in there right mind would expect a brake van to stop a runaway train on a downward mountain grade!? -Sincerely, a new subscriber!
All it's missing is a TOAD face, then imagine how popular it would be then. Just make sure you put the face on the right end....UNLIKE MATTEL WHO MADE TOAD BACK THE FRONT
+leokimvideo Learning Curve also did the same thing with Toad when he was released for the Thomas Wooden Railway line in 1998. This was fixed with the 2005 model (which also had a brake lever).
Don’t you need an accessory decoder, rather than a loco decoder, so it’s not trying to detect a motor? To use it analogue as it is now, you could build a marshalling yard on a gradient. Maybe incorporating the Hornby tipper and/or coal drop, so you can unload one truck at a time.
I'm not sure what the problem was - but it certainly could be looking for resistance across the motor outputs... but yeah, accessory decoder would be the way to go then. Yeah absolutely - it'd be great for hump shunting etc! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Interesting. Though it does jump a bit when you apply the brakes 😉! Might be interesting to rig up a system which brakes on both axles at the same time.
@@SamsTrains Well as a future improvement, you could use a decoder. The ESU LokPilot has servo controls, and if you use the LokSound, you could add some cool brake squeal. :D
@@rbdaviesTB3 As a musician in college, and that being one of my favorite pieces, I am pleased someone actually knows the name of the tune. Most people call it the "Lone Ranger" since its the title theme.
You know what I just realized. You could also use this chassis as a brake for a gravity railway. You could have a layout that has an incline, then bring some trucks (some box vans would probably be a better idea considering this design) down the hill using gravity until you start putting on the brakes to stop and/or slow down the trucks. Once you get to the bottom, you could then just have a loco pull the trucks back up.
This is fascinating ! I worked on the rail for nearly fifty years . A couple of things that might be of interest to you . On the underside of the body of the brake van was very large and thick concrete blocks . It was made up in two parts and was about a foot to 18 inches thick . I'm not sure if this is correct , but the weight was 2 or 4 tons ,sorry I can't remember which. When we were running steam and yes I was on the railway when diesel came in to use. The brake system worked with vacuum . But when diesel came in it changed to air . The vacuum brake was incredibly sensitive . But drivers used to complain how harsh the airbrake was. when applied , the vacuum brake started at the rear of the train and worked its way forward .Which gave us an advantage, it kept the whole train under tension. But with air brake at first it was from the engine . Which could have caused a derailment with the wagons pushing forward This was quickly changed to it came on the full length of the train at the same time. I had to deal with a death of a guard . He must have gone out onto the veranda part of the van . This was in the middle of the night and leaning on the door . But the bar that went across the top of it was not in place so he fell .
Amazing concept Sam, and I could see this being of great use on layouts, for instance allowing for simulated breakaways, gravity-shunting, etc. Might I suggest adding weights to the van (and possibly the trucks) - this would make the consist more likely to roll on a gentler gradient and give the van a greater degree of adhesive weight/braking force.
What a great idea! Fantastic to see it working, it remind me of the Triang gimmickry of things like the Giraffe Car and the TPO and log wagons, something that's fun, pointlessly functional and endlessly entertaining as you get to play the guard applying their brakes.
I love this idea! Try putting some weights inside the brake van to give it more stopping ability maybe? Also, would a small point motor with a shaft work to apply and release the brakes with more control? I do love your experiment videos!
Fantastic Sam, now fit a bridge rectifier and it will work no matter the polarity of the track. Also if you add a voltage controller you can bias the the operating range to better match a loco
I think it would be neat to revisit this concept but using a similar method of braking as dynamic braking on American locomotives (or regenerative brakes on electric cars) use: The electric motors are turned into generators and the current is put thriugh a massive resistor grid, which turns the energy into heat and creates a braking force inside the motors. Not exactly sure how it'd work at a small scale, but it would be interesting to explore the idea!
This was one of the most fun videos I think you've made Sam. Great idea taken to completion, and what a great result! So fun watching, probably 10x more fun running it! I really hope you keep playing around with the concept and please show us any improvements!!!
Well done,and your thinking cap is working overtime! I had a reprint of a LSW working timetable[1909[,back then,a hand braked train(frt),was limited by brakevan weight,and gradients! Nominally,there was a load limit of 20 axles,per train! And coal loads were 1&1/2, of regular wagons! Interesting reading and that way you can be protypical,and historical too!! The LNWR also pulled that with passenger carriages,a part of FYI!!! THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND EFFORT 👍!
Yes, the mobile (motor) decoder needs to see a load where the motor is; try a 10 to 100 ohm resistor, or get a lighting-only (stationary) decoder. If you put a decoder equipped loco on the tracks, then enter the decoder address on the handset (or base station), you’ll often see a brief surge (hiccup) from the loco as the decoder checks to see if a motor is connected. It’s actually applying a brief pulse of current to the motor. The resistor will trick it into thinking it has a motor.
That's a great idea. I've had an incident when on a steep grade on a curve had a section of passenger cars come uncoupled, which came speeding back down the hill and crashed into my general store scattering unglued pieces such as trees, barrels, people, etc. when they derailed at the bottom on the turn going into town. I fixed the issue with some Bachmans have a plastic tender hook that slides up under the cab of the engine. at top of the hill where it levels out the tender becomes detached. I used a piece of heat shrink tubing that fits snug under the cab. and cut it to fill the gap.
It totally would, great idea! But then you'd be down to just 2 pickups, which means you'd get intermittent power delivery to the solenoid... and each time the power gets cut, the brake gets applied! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I remember I did something like this years ago by using a small string wrapped around the axils and glued on on end to the frame and wrapped twice around the axils and the other ends attached to the shaft of a small motor so that when it rotates it tightens the string and applies friction to the axil it wasn't strong enough to lock the wheels (unless the motor was over volted) but it could realistically stop a rake of wagons going down an incline.
That was brilliant, how about a 3d printed loco powered by a rechargeable battery, no worries about dead electrical areas and with a control system super smooth crawl speeds! Great video as ever.
If you're interested Sam, the gauge II version from 110 years ago lay the solenoid flat and just used a counter spring (like what peco points have) but operated the actual brake shoes. The similar period slip coaches appeared to have used the axle design. A mechanical flywheel was attached to an axle to increase momentum. Like so much from the period things like that been long forgotten, awaiting a revisit by good folks like yourself :)
Love it Sam. Maybe a bigger van with some more weight. If probably braking both axles would help. You could wire the controller to a small relay which controls the connection of the track to the selenoids. So the controller turns on the relay with turns on the solenoids. The wiring from the track tor relay to solenoids. That would also the controller to handle is current limit while controlling a higher current item. It is just a thought. Also relays can be much lower current than the solenoids.
Nice experiment, Sam ! Tip 1 : make your beakvan heavier, especially on the breaking axle. Tip 2 : if your decoder is designed to fit on an engine, i.e. if it's not just a function decoder, the motor output needs to have a motor connected to work properly. Suggestion : take a (cheaper) function decoder with no motor output, or put a resistor on the motor output of the decoder you're using here to simulate a motor. I guess 1 ohm should be enough but you'll find the right value by testing. Cheers from France, keep the good spirit up !
I will admit it's been a while since I did any electronics so I may be remembering it wrong, but one possible idea for using the dcc encoder is to use one of the lower power outputs and have it trigger a transistor. The main power to the solenoid would come from the tracks, through transistor, with the lower powered trigger signal coming from the dcc encoder to tell the transistor to open up and let the power flow to the solenoid. Granted you'd need the appropriate protection for the transistor to stop it being popped by the power from the tracks but it's something to look into.
Very intriguing idea! As others have commented, the right DCC decoder for the job would make this more viable and redesign it so that the solenoid is powered in the brake ON mode. Also, add some kind of transient sound generator for some brake squeal.
Hi Sam, I've been watching your videos for some time now... and I have to say that your enthusiasm and ability is very impressive. This has to be one of your greatest achievements so far. Really looking forward to see if you get it going with DCC, Maybe a manufacturer of these chips might be persuaded to make a custom one for you, as they would get some publicity?
That's very kind of you - thanks so much! haha I doubt anyone would be willing to make a custom chip... but hopefully an accessory decoder would be able to do the job! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
An interesting concept, but it's a bit like throwing the handbrake on.. A better idea IMO provided that the solenoid shoots out on power-up, would be to get rid of the flappy padle & glue a small piece of thick elastic band directly on to the end of the solenoid & have that directly contact the axel or a plastic ring around the axle acting as a brake pad.. Another thing you can do, just incase (which I suspect) one accessory from the decoder is not providing enough power, is use more than one! As long as you program the decoder to turn on however many accessories you use, either 2, 3 or 4 on the same function key, you simply just wire all the negative leads together as one & then the one +(blue) lead the other side & you will be good for a lot more milliamps! This is something that's been done for running small motors for on board animations.. That way you will have a proper braking system, but obviously you still have to allow for momentum...
Oh, I forgot to add.. The material you want for power pickup from the track is actually phosphor bronze, you can usually pick it up (see what I did there 😂) easily & cheap enough on ebay...
Love it!!!!! Great fun! Perhaps a more effective way of utilising your idea may be to use the solenoid to push a fibre tip pen head (the sort of thing you use to clean electrical contacts) directly to both axles? One solenoid and a pivot bar pushing two bars, one to the front and one to the rear axle. The fibre tip acts as friction compound without wearing or damaging the axels and could possible provide a smooth more progressive stop…. Maybe fun to try it. I’m sure you could make it work.
That mechanism would be great for an incline railway model. Breaks being applied before a runaway near-miss onto the mainline, that would work terrifically !
as an observation: if you could get a circuit to accept your normal input voltage you run a locomotive on, then you might be able to set it up to release the brake whenever there is a voltage on the rail. then its matter of tuning the thing to release at the minimum possible voltage. second, i don't think you need the paddles. wide disc of plastic or metal and a brake pad on the end of the plunger would work too, and allow a bit of slip during release and application of the brake. even if it isnt really capable of locking up the wheel, it should be enough to get a good braking action while coupled to a train with a locomotive. if you are worried about heat buildup in the solonoid, install a heat sink. you can probably make one with parts you have on hand like that strip of copper. lastly, what about using the guts of a relay? the mechanical action is run on tiny input voltages and you only need a bit of movement. and it might work out for you to have it just sitting 'open' whenever a small voltage is present on the rails.
Honestly, this design is cool. On layouts where you have different grades, a working break could do well on longer trains. Say, your train is going up the grade, and the coupling between the locomotive and your train of cars breaks or lets loose, then they're going down a hill. Certain cars with breaks could help if you'd care enough to have that realism to your layout (or honestly, in my opinion, it'd be very convenient instead of having to reach into the layout).
hi sam. a brilliant idea . great for shunting on a slope. especially if you incorporated a magnetic uncoupling system in the layout. a feature which is usable and useful with such layouts. may i suggest you perfect the idea better using better equipment and patent it.. oh and try running it brake van down first with wagons following it down the slop
Put some lump of metal in there for more stopping power. Also, if you can be bothered to: Imagine a larger one that has radio control and a battery for power. To save power, you'd need to develop a different system that only needs power while the brake is being applied. And the radio control is needed so that you could apply the brake any time, independently of the locomotive.
You should be working for Hornby designing new locomotives! Think of the products you could make for everyone given your extensive knowledge of what us model train enthusiasts like and dislike in a new release. Seriously!
Aww thank you so much - so happy that you have such confidence in what I can do.... though it's definitely not justified, lol! ;D Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I saw you drawing with your left hand, Im a southpaw too! Love the brake van, it never occured to me to have model brake vans with... well, brakes. Lol
My best accidental click on RU-vid! :) I wasn't expecting a model railway video to be fun and interesting; haven't thought about the hobby properly for too long. There was one time when I thought about buying N-gauge so I could make a complicated layout in the little space I have, but I forgot about it again because I have too many other things I want to do. Nice use of attic space, by the way. I love the painted beams. :D
Great Video Sam , More of these type of videos would be great Can you please post a link to the solenoid for me it looks ideal for a project i am doing . Thanks Dave
Fascinating idea Maybe instead of the paddles you could use two magnets that are on both side of the axle and pull up a brake pad. That way the brakes are loose when unpowered and the wheels wouldn't immediately stop when the brake us applied. Or you could adapt the current system to make a ratchet brake, that way if the train gets seperated why climbing up a slope, the brakes would stop the train from rolling back. That way you would only need to power the magnet when reversing
Would there be a way where you reverse the mechanism so when you apply power to move the loco, the brake releases and when the power is stopped for when the loco stops the brakes are applied. Or applies pressure onto the axle when slowing down rather than completely stopping the wheel from turning.
Sam, I think another go at the brake van idea is in order, with a redesign of the mechanics, some weight, and some traction tires, we could see a very practical brake van (ofc for useless perposes but idc)
Well Sam.. I think you might have just added the next level of realism to this wonderful hobby! I have all kinds of uses for this braking system!! Please keep up with your inventing I'm excited and I want to use this on my trains!!!!
You’re gonna think I’m insane for suggesting this, but what about a 3D printed motorized crane? It doesn’t have to be able to lift trucks and coaches, it just needs the ability to raise and lower the jib and the hook with a motor. You definitely don’t have to do this, but it would be fun to see you try!
Hmmmm. If you used a servo motor and a disk with a slightly offset center rubbing on an axle, the motor could incrementally apply more or less pressure to the axle (or a disk on the axle) as it changes position, just as real brakes do. However, one might need a small programmed microcontroller to manage the pulses to the servo and which receives on/off instructions signals plus power from an accessory decoder. Kind of involved, but it could be done. I wonder if there are accessory decoders that can do servo motor control, as this would be much easier. In any case, I always enjoy watching your projects and hope you will do many more. Cheers from Wisconsin.
have you considered a friction break? i think you could use the solenoid to pull the rope tight around the axel (so the rope follows a u shape path), you might need to roughen up the axel for a bit of friction but i think it could work, and the solenoid would be horizontal so you would be able to hide it easier. this is such a fun idea though!
I remember the old train layout my granda made for me. It had a bridge and my granda tried his best to make its grade low as possible. This brake van would have been extremly useful. When you start adding sweets to the those cars the weight is difficult to control.
That was fun! Just one thing Sam. Model Railway's did have a Purpose in the Signal School at Royal Oak where an extensive and fully signaled layout was used for demonstrations. Sadly according to my photo' it was binned as scrap at the end of the steam era.
You can actually put a filter in the brake circuit to filter out the pcm. That will enable you to use it with a loco. The filter is very easy; it's just a resister with a capacitor.
Another entry in my list of favourite videos from you Sam. This idea was extremely creative and very well executed, bravo! I also really enjoy your enthusiasm for things like this, it leaps out of the video. Never apologise for that and long may it continue. Best
Now I want to see you develop this concept even further by building a model of a downhill 'gravity' railway with one car having power brakes, meaning the amount of power you apply to the track is how much braking force is applied (or the other way round) I have seen another model brake van (if you can call it a model) for wooden railway which was Toad from Thomas and Friends' model from 2006, but that was like a handbrake for parking the train. I don't own that wooden toy so I can't really test that on a hill
Rather than a "hard stop", you could try some sort of lever pivoting at one end on one side of the axle, and the solenoid operating the lever from the other side of the axle. If the lever has some flexibility it would allow some measure of soft/hard braking capability, and also allow the brake to be applied while the train is still moving.
Good evening Sam!! Sorry it’s been a long time since I last had time to watch You Tube channels!! Now I’m back and watching you!! I’ll keep in touch because you have interesting ideas and trains.
Now that you’ve got pickups and a decoder, time for some interior lighting. 😌 Maybe you can disguise the solenoid as an old-time wood stove and affix a jack pipe through the roof and the (fake) wood stove.
Now I don’t know if these are a real thing, but maybe find a contraption that when at a certain speed can stop the train, that way say at a model railway show theirs a breakaway, the train will stop and their won’t be a crash, and maybe to help the brake van add a thin rubber band, just so it can still break realistically
Hmm, what contraption... electrical would be easiest. an IR LED shining through a wheel with holes or onto a black & white pattern on the back of a wheel, and a photodiode to pick up the modulated light. Then a simple filter would reduce the amplitude of the signal at low speeds, and some kind of level detector would apply the brakes when the signal amplitude goes above a certain level. Perhaps also a latch of some sort so the brakes stay on. Not hard if you understand electronics, but I'm just realising how rusty I am. :)
You shud place the solenoid in a 45 degree angel so you dont need to raise the roof. And then skip the plastic on the axel akd just use the metal from the solenoid directly on the metal axel. Then the braking shud be smother by the less friction. But if you want to do it even more advanced so you can deside how mutch braking you want then you ned an other type of solenoid mounted on the axel and cupled to the engine output on the decoder insted.
You could have a look at like some of the smaller rc servo motors (a 9g servo might just be enough to block the axle) with a little rubber pad that runs on a wheel of the axle itself (or some bushing) those thing do take a own signal of course but nothing a small ATtiny can’t fix.
Not a bad little experiment. The problem with the DCC decoder may be that it is expecting a load on the motor outputs, I have some decoders made by Lias that say too use them as function only a resistor needs to be added in place of the motor. This probably won't work for all makes but a function only decoder would be a better option.
Two thoughts: the decoders were likely detecting a lack of motor, I've run into this problem myself, not sure why or how exactly but many loco decoders go nonresponsive when there's no motor connected. Second, if you wanted to do this again I'd suggest using a relay instead of directly hooking the solenoid to one of the function outs.
The solenoid needs to be released by default and only turned on when you want the brakes applied. This is the main flaw in your design, I would suggest putting a thin bar across the bottom of the car lengthwise, which when pulled upwards applies pressure to the axle(s). Then the solenoid can simply be installed upside down and attached to the bar via a linkage so that when actuated it pulls up on the bar, applying friction to the axles, and this stopping the train.
This is a great idea, the bar across the bottom of the brake van would look similar to regular brake rigging on engines and stuff. But I'm not sure about the released by default idea. I think the way he has it is a great emergency stop feature (provided it is perfected with more stopping power, perhaps both axes braking, and some weight to the van itself) because being powered to keep the brakes off, means that if the power is cut, in any sort of emergency, the brakes will immediately come on. Exactly like vacuum brakes, when there is a leak in the tube, the brakes all along the train come on. Whereas with the American system, when brakes are actuated using power. If there is a brake in the line between trucks along the length of the train, then there is no longer any power from the engine to actuate the brakes. And in model form, keeping them off using power, means that if there is an emergency (train details, earthquake and the baseboard snaps in half, poor track, etc) and the power is cut, there is no longer any way to turn on the brakes, let alone have it done by default, which is how vacuum brakes work.
Now I'm thinking of installing a similar system in a handful of my cars and cabooses. Given that I'm an N scale US modeler it will be a challenge if I try it because of both the size and the bogies
A simple design that has great potential. This a fantastic piece of micro model engineering,well done Sam. Now watch a model train producer bring one out!!!!
All you need to do now is add more weight, attach a long train to it, release the brakes, and have "William Tell Overture" play in your head, haha! I'd really like to see if it could stop right before a head-on collision with a stopped engine. Possibilities are endless
I'd like to do this in a larger scale, say 1:20.3 (Fn3). Imagine having a line of these cars with their own airbrakes! You could make a 3D printed cover to disguise the solenoid as the brake cylinder. The brakes would be friction pads that hold a bit of tension on the axles. If you get the tension right, the train would roll to a stop more realistically. The bigger scale means more mass, which means the train has significantly more momentum.
Very impressive, that stopping effect was verging on prototypical, I can imagne that in 0 gauge that would be very very handy. In real life loose coupled goods trains would stop at the top of steep inclines and screw down the van brakes so that the couplings remained taught durrimg the descent and stop the train surging against the local and maybe causing run aways (see many Thomas stories for details) A stsyem like that in 0 gauge would look and work very well, How about that for a future project?
Now that I think about it, this could actually be useful if you have a railway with steep gradients, and say something goes wrong on a train. Could be redesigned to be better, but still! Amazing work as always Sam!
What about a switch such as a table top point motor of some such. If you did a break van you might even fit in a point motor such as hornby’s. Attach to that a metal/thick plastic bar that is raised and lowered as required. It might make going DCC easier then to.
Brilliant proof-of-concept stuff. However, now you need to add catch-points at the bottom of Gordon's Hill... Next up -- real brake rigging, with 'memory wire.'
