Couple of final final thoughts! I'm still going into the hi-z (instrument) input on the Tascam, just like I did with the Presonus in the previous video. Curious now to go back and explore earlier Neural releases with open ears and mind! Although I really am starting to think the idea of presets made by others is kinda useless without reference to which interfaces and gain methods they were created with. Maybe they're fun jump off point/starting points, and actually it's probably isn't that big of a deal for the non-specific Archetype stuff, but for real world amp recreations it's a head scratcher. Totally explains the wild ride that browsing through the Artist Presets can be! (RIPheadphonz).
Thanks to Ed, John, and yourself for shedding light on this topic. Plugins will be used more in the future, so it's important to get these detailed worked out. It's funny how this mirrors the technical lacunae of the transition from vinyl recording to digital recording.
Ola was doing a plug in review, about a year ago and he had the input on the plug in at zero. Someone posted a question to him why he had it at zero and he explained in his next plug in review why he does this. Ever since I saw that I’ve been doing that. I find it interesting how people are doing the reverse and putting the interface input at zero instead of the plug in. I tested it and is much different.
It sux putting the interface at zero and makes no sense at all. This topic has just gotten way overblown. People need to use the level indicators and their ears. It's actually hilarious how people buy the BS about putting the interface gain at zero. Input on the sim should be at zero at least to start then tweak if necessary from there. My 2 cents.. It's really a no brainer. Analog or digital it's always been the same concept. Cheers. Of course an amp sim will NEVER sound like a real tube amp that it is emulating simply because they are NOT the same. I think the sims are getting better though. For sure.
I stumbled upon your video while looking for answers for this type of problem, but using Amplitube. When you mentioned you were previously using a Presonus Studio 1824c, I got that aha moment. I too, am using a 1824c. But I also have a Behringer Ultragain Pro-8 Digital (Model ADA8000) running through my Presonus using ADAT, for 8 more mic inputs. I had never thought about plugging my guitar into the cheap Behringer interface, to see if Amplitube sounded correct. Well guess what.. It did! I was about ready to give up on Amplitube, but holy crap does it sound good now. Thank you for making this video. Cheers!
Making music over 20 years and it never occurred to me to set my guitars line gain differently than a mic... Thanks a lot for spreading the word. Now my plugins sound good all of a sudden XD! Cheers!
Did you retry working with software modelers? Did it workout to be ok? No matter where I set my gain level (I set it to zero now), my amp model plugins always sound very very bottom heavy, muddy and dark as if something is wrong. I plug into high z input with gain at 0 on interface.
it makes sense... if youre above zero youre basically adding a boost. had always set mine to zero with the QC as an interface.. granted if you use the QC amps you adjust it to your pick up outputs.. but plugins are different..
Great demonstration that was easy to follow and you could definitely hear the difference. My problem is I don't own any of the amps that are in the Neural DSP plugins I use, so I have no base reference. I can hear the difference now in the Tone King. That was the Strat/Tele tone I was looking for when I bought the plugin. I am interested to test how this affects my high gain tones in plugins like Gojira or Nolly using humbuckers. Thanks again for the tip. Subscribed.
The kind of embarrassing thing is, it's sort of obvious if I'd really thought about the logic over the year! But hey ho, we live and learn 😂 and thankfully some determined folks have done the work to figure for me lol End of the day means plugins are a new option to consider using :)
My Fishman Fluence Moderns, which I played with the most when I picked guitar back up and got into plugins, needs to be at zero gain on nearly every interface Ive tried, to be at the levels theu recommended even. So I was lucky in that aspect I guess. I now follow Ed S. Table for ideal input gain levels and my recordings are much better
I hoped that this was the reason why I was never able to appreciate Neural plugins. Not even one. But nope, I can't stay satisfied even by adjusting the input correctly, I always feel that there is something wrong with the dynamics, especially how it reacts to the touch of the pick in palm mutes. They work great in mixes, but for me, feeling the instrument is absolutely essential and in this, I find even my Spark MINI more responsive. Am I crazy? I see everybody happy with NeuralDSP plugins and I feel so alone in this lol For me, the plugin that comes closest to my FM3 is ToneX, I tried it yesterday and I was absolutely shocked by how good it sounds. The problem with the FM3 is that reamping is very inconvenient compared to a plugin, but with ToneX I think I've found a solution
Cool. The Neural plugin still sounds like it's more broken up but way closer so it's maybe a minor adjustment to get them right on than how vastly different they were to begin with. Also makes me think that I should just get a FM3.
See...I'm having the opposite problem. I play mainly in metal bands. I like the super model Marshal sound. I'm plugging in, it's coming in as clean as... And there is not enough gain. Even on a 5150!! I've played through 5150's. There is a MONSTEROUS amount if gain. It's literally silly. It was the first amp where I turned the gain down, at all! And I turned it down to about half! I plug into an interface... Pull up a 5150... And it's like the gain is on about a quarter, if that. It's INCREDIBLY frustrating! Notes aren't forming or 'blooming' properly. harmonics in the notes when I bend are just not there... I don't know what I'm doing wrong. But I can't possibly imagine turning the input gain down, is going to ultimately give me more gain? Any ideas? any idea who I should talk to to fix this? The promise is there, the basic sound is buried in there... But it's just not responding correctly.
Similar issues with my Kemper where rigs sound awful a lot of the time when setting up for recording. Was getting so frustrated. From what I think you are saying it would be a case of setting my Tascam 4X4 input to 0.0 db and the input on the Kemper rig to 0.0db. Fingers crossed not sure that it will work with the Kemper input set to 0.0db but will give a it go. Cheers for that watched Cordy and ED S videos but this just linked it all together for me. Simple enough on the face of it Thank you sir. When I think about it now I used to use Amplitube 4 and the Scuffham amp and they too sounded wrethced.. Will go back to trying to them out again using this method.. Also like the sound of the Neural DSP.. Game changer might be an understatement..
If you are using the Kemper as a DI, turn down the Clean Sens. parameter. At default (0) it’s 5dBu which is very low headroom. I’d adjust to -7dB or -8dB so you have 12dBu or 13dBu headroom, and then set reamp sens. to +7 or 8 so if you reamp with the kemper it’s back at unity. That level will also sound better for NDSP etc plugins
I have a 1st Generation 6i6 Scarlett and tried rolling it all the way left on my Neural and Nembrini plugs with varying results. IN some cases there was not enough signal to make for a pleasing tone. Maybe it's just me and I'm not understanding something but I didn't find this to be as pleasing as what I was using before. It does however make me want to look into modelers now.
My signal is too weak as well. I'm going into a presonus studio24c. The math on mine is to back off the NDSP input to -2.2 after setting interface to zero. Signal is too weak. I concur with another commenter here who said to set interface to peak at -12 to -13 instead. If you've been peaking at -6 before that would explain why it sounds too saturated once it hit the plugin.
That‘s why there is an input knob in the plugin 🫠 It‘s always a good idea to record a DI as hot as possible with a high quality audio interface. If you use a great DI box in between it can be even better. Just play around with the volume of your takes or the input knob in the plugin and you‘ll get the results you need
I noticed the white volume knob and power knob did not work at all like the real amp. The white knob was adding distortion in the plug in and on the real amp it pretty much adds only volume. The power knob was adding volume with very little distortion. It’s also missing out in the ear piercing chiminess and country twang the morgan can hit. It felt nothing like the actual amp to me.
This does not make any sense, as Hi-z gain knob is supposed to be use to get the best gain stage level before recording. And as you probably already found out, the reason there's no signal on your recording is because you are recording the actual dry signal, not what comes out from the Plugin. So it does not matter the output level of the amp sim.
I'm bewildered why the plugin manufacturers don't spell this out for us. I've never been happy with the setting up of my interface to match the plugins input level..... Phffff.
Those gain setting recommendations make sense for proper hardware. Is it not obvious that the DI/preamp and converters of your interface will greatly affect your amp plugin experience? This is the same as when you record anything. A cheap interface with a poorly designed DI will sound bad.
Why not turn up near clipping, then turn down the input signal on plugin to match the peak between 0 gan vs near clipping gain? To get lowest noise as possible from the AI itself?
the background noise from the pickups will be more significant than the self noise of the interface. So even if you lower the interface noise, you won’t hear any benefit as the pickup noise will mask it
How do you set the plugin input level for PRE-RECORDED DIs though (since the audio interface gain is already baked in in the tracks, and you most probably don't know with what interface and interface gain it was tracked, etc) ?
I guess this would be a case of using a combination of ears and metering. When I did my original and I revamped the DI's I obviously had an aural reference to shoot for. If I didn't have the real amp and/or fm3 It would have been impossible. Which is kind of the point really, without that knowledge it's super hard to know whether your plugin is sounding as it should or would with the same guitar plugged into the real amp.
Hey nice video , i am using this technique of setting interface gain at zero ( UAD Appollo) and been using NDSP Soldano at noon, into studio one and man it sounds like crap on a mono channel. The waveform is also very very thin. How do I get better sound and healthier D.I waveform if I reduce the input of my interface>>>???
That's interesting, I've found the Soldano, way nicer setting it this way. You could gain your interface the normal way then reduce in the plugin, it's just when I did it that way I couldn't reduce it enough still with the interface I was using. I also don't really see it making much of a difference tone wise these says with noise floor being what it is.
@@DavidBeebee what about buses ? Do you bus 2 mono track to the same bus or one for each? Theres many ways of doing this im a bit confused. I just want to double track and add a lead guitar and make great 80s music.
ok that is what is supposed to be done i guess. now let s assume another scenario : you want to use your dry signal to another amp vst...you have a shit noise ratio recording because it was recorded too low just for neural dsp ?
Neural DSP's optimal level is actually quite hot, its 7dB hotter than you'd get using an Axe FX (for instance). The main source of noise is going to come from background noise into the pickups which is going to mask the self noise of the interface, unless you're recording like 20dB too quiet.
seriously? so many videos out there covering this subject. well, that's what the input knob in the plugin is for ... in the real world, meaning analogue, if the amp is breaking up to "early" - whatever that means since every guitar has different output levels - you want to lower the gain of the amp or the volume on your guitar, well ... In the old days I was pushing my peavy classic 50 hard by adding the compressor of a korg a3 with no compression dialed in just using it to push the volume. use your ears. if treating an amp(sim) badly is giving you the sound you are looking for, go for it. Anyway, if you are going for "this is how it should sound ..." I prefer to gain stage like shown in the beginning for the better noisefloor ratio in the analogue part of the chain and lower the input volume (signal and noise) in the plugin to achieve the desired sound/behaviour. Best of two worlds.
P.S.: waiting for the first audio interface with an instrument input that goes "directly" through to your amp sim ;- ) which'll screw up amplitube that seems to handle a digital signal at line level quite well ...
the goal here is to have the same gain response as plugging your guitar into the real amp. NDSP spec’d their plugins so you can use the most common interfaces (UAD/Focusrite/Audient) at gain=0 and have the perfect level.
STOP CONFUSING PEPLE wrongly populating Ed's video !!!! You have ZERO on your audio interface but you have your GAIN CRANKED UP IN LOGIC'S TRACK instead of it. Let me guess - you wouldn't tell anyone about this details in video, right ?? I haven't seen video yet but I've seen 10 of the same reference WITHOUT mentioning that you have to get your gain back just in digital domain instead of interface. Ed's video NOT ABOUT PLUGINS OR GUITARS OR INPUT LEVEL. It's about matching gain level RANGES of YOUR audio interface with plugin creators' audio interface. It's like tenth video when RU-vidrs continue to confuse people with stupid "set your interface gain to zero" idea without _telling_ that you STILL have to compensate your level in DAW instead. Let's check your video if you will mention this "insignificant" detail.
@@siteloss3055no, check out Ed S. Video. He has a table on Google docs you can view that has many interfaces and their numbers, and tells you what different amp sims need for those interfaces/levels. I use an Axe I/O one on my mac mainly now due to it having expression pedals ports, I have to manually work out the level as it's a 10.5 one, and there's no other 10.5s listed. For neuralDSP I do -1.8. For Mercurialls I do -3.3. For ML sound labs, I do just barely above 2, the one with the light above it for ML plugins.
I having real trouble figuring out where 0db is on my presonus studio 68 interface. The input gain dial goes from -15bd to +65 with no indication where 0db is!
@@DavidBeebee the dial goes from -15db to +65. I did the math to find where zero should be but it was way too quiet for the plugin. So I've just gone with the advice on the neural site and set it so my signal peaks around -12.
Ed S has stared before that setting your interface to zero means putting your gain knob all the way down, as apposed to setting it zero decibels. -15 db is what you should actually be looking to get from your interface, as that is your maximum amount of headroom with the lowest noise floor you can get from your interface. You will then need to match your D.I. level to whatever Neural is expecting (I believe it is 12 db) which would mean either boosting or cutting within the plugin itself. Go watch Ed S's video how to set input level form plugins for more details bud! He also has a chart of common interface and plugin values! \m/ @@neoncloud5494
What do you mean they have problem with input level. What a joke. On Mobile Amp sims on mobile devices (ipad, iphone, even android) it's not even an issue, since they expecting the users using various (and even wonky, on board) interfaces, they've already match the input level. And you tell me these lazy developers can't even do that on pc where people use at least more proper audio interfaces. What a joke.
All interfaces are different. I think if people just applied gain staging fundamentals of -12db with their interface this wouldn't be as big a problem. Setting the interface to 0 makes sense for this tascam interface, but for my presonus quantum 2626 my input knob needs to be around 11 o clock to hit -12 peak dbs at zero I'm at -96 dbs. So ed’s advice of then adding gain based on my specs doesn’t work. It will also be different for each guitar based on pickups Long story short just check your DI signal on meter to hit -12dbs before any plugin. Setting the input knob to zero is not a universal thing.
I think this could explain why the new UAFX amp pedals are so popular. They work like an amp right out of the box. But now we know how to use the plugins right. Maybe they will really start to catch on.
+12.5 dBu is the maximum input level at gain knob set to 0. That's how hot signal the interface can take at no gain added. Ideally, the strength of input signal entering your audio gear should be 0 dBu. If it's less then you get more noise when you turn up the volume. If it's more you get distortion. When you adjust the level of the interface knob just below peaking you get around that 0 dBu of input signal (0,77 volts). I have a Soldano from NeuralDSP and single coils and it works for me when I set my Scarlet input gain just below peaking. The clean tone is good, if I want a more mellow tone I just turn down my guitar volume knob from 10 to around 8. When I tried to set it to 0 I got a significant loss in sound quality. Maybe it's about this Morgan plugin that has this issue.
With this method it appears the size of the recorded waveform is a lot smaller, does this matter? I use an Apogee Duet interface & am looking forward to trying this approach, thanks for sharing, very informative.
I'm using helix native, and when i set the input of my audio interface at zero, when i record in logic, i have sound but i have veeeeery tiny wave in Logic, so i think i'm doing something wrong i guess
So, when you mic your amp and use a mixer to run through a PA, you, put the input gain on the mixer on 0? OK, get my point. LOL. Raising the input gain on the plug in or having you mic level input on a mixer too low and raising the volume of the amp makes no sense.. Stop the nonsense. When you have the input on your interface is on 0 and raise the plugin input is going to be noisier. I can't believe people are losing their minds about how simple the reality is. When did wrong become right? LOL. I imagine this is for clean tones and just slightly broken up tones. If anything , lower the input gain on the amp sim or dial down the gain on the amp sim head. Turn them knobs a bit tho get the sound. Putting your interface on zero is just a no. Is it wrong, probably not and maybe it has its uses in some aspects depending on what sound you are looking for.
great topic, if you want to go further down the rabbit hole ;) try out with a different DI in front of your audio interface , or even a buffer/preamp style pedal (Lehle Sunday driver as an example), all adds up i ended up buying the Countryman 85 DI which then connected to my RME Babyface pro as it made such a nice difference when playing amp sims, feel and tone here's a vid on the difference it makes on a bass guitar for example ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-agEx0qCZc-E.html
Very interesting! A few days ago, I bought the Morgan Amps Suite and was quite confused why I don't sound like Jack Gardiner by using the preset "Favourite Breakup Lead" (well knowing, that I never will sound like Jack!!!). What's even more worse is, that it does sound absolutely different in my two different DAWs. One with a Audient EVO 4 and Logitech standard speaker (DAW just for noodling and collecting ideas) and the other with a MOTU 896 mk3 Hybrid, Tannoy 502 and a RCF sub. I spent a bit of time getting close to the tone I wanted by comparing it to Jack's video. Now I'm using the PAD button (-20), leveling the input gain by +1 db with the MOTU. By using the EVO the only chance is to roll the knob down to the lowest input level. From now on, I don't fear a small wave when recording guitars with Cubase, because now the amps sound more the way they should.
I've always had the gain knob at 0, I never thought about it but I guess in the back of my head I didn't want any more colouration from the preamps, and if I needed more gain or less on the amp plugin I would just use the input gain on the plugin.
I have a problem experimenting with this method. When i set the interface gain (SSL2+ for reference) to 0 I get little to no sound on the DAW, and I have to increase the gain to be able to hear the input. Any recommendations?
My SSL2 was buzzy with extremely loose fuzzy buttons , second channel didn't work , continually disconnected itself .. I threw it in the garbage and bought a Clarett .. problem solved. The hype on those interfaces is crazy online. I don't get it. Maybe I got a lemon, but I've heard A LOT of other people talk about those interfaces being bricked within a year.
@@265ENOCK That seems to be most people's experience. Hope it continues working for you. I couldn't turn mine up past 2 without getting a nasty buzzing hum. I almost thought I was having a ground loop problem. That wasn't the case. I'm actually glad to be rid of it though.. The Clarett sounds SO much better.. it also feels like a quality build unlike the SSL unit .. live and learn I guess. Always beware RU-vidrs hyping gear and software. A lot of it is just straight up guerrilla marketing. They're being compensated to endorse stuff. They may look like the real deal .. but if they're making money, they're most likely compromised.
Why not turn down the input gain in the plugin UI? It's non-destructive; you get to keep options. Is there an actual sonic benefit to having the gain at zero on the interface, versus turning it down on the plugin?
the benefit is you know exactly what your input headroom is, and you’ll likely have a hot enough signal anyway at 0. If your interface has stepped gain controls you can easily add gain and adjust your headroom value without having to measure. any approach is fine, but setting it to 0 means you can just look at manufacturer specs and return to that value essily
You're damned right about the lack of clarity/information from NDSP; The same can't be said about S-Gear; I've been shocked with how disinterested NDSP can be when a customer is having a difficulty with some aspect of their product;
Hello! I want to ask specifically regarding live setup. Is this issue ONLY for DAW & plugins? Or does it affect live setup input/gain as well? If so, what is best scenario tor live quad cortex straight into an analogue mixing desk (without DI). Should we change anything?
But if you are recording to a DAW, if you don't use the gain on the Hi-z input, then there's no enough signal, since when using amp sim on a audio track as an insert, you're actually recording the dry signal of the guitar, not the Neural output. So how to go around that?
That means we are listening to dry signal of our guitar + the processed sound from amp sims, both are the same time, when playing and listening through studio monitor speakers?
Glancing at my interface input gain set at 9:00. Guilty. I'm continuously dialing the gain down inside my plugins. Game changer. Thank you Ed. Thank you for the demo David.
The problem is that the sound comes from the plugin is great when the gain is set to 0 in my interface , however the dry signal being recorded is very poor in my daw which wont be useful if i changed my mind and used another plugin
And beside you want the guitar being recorded between -12 to -6 dB. This method will just make your dry recording useless, and that is the most important to have a good mix. The amp sim you use does not matter
With Softube it is great. With Amplitube , I push the input slider till I feel less 'Spikiness' on my fretting fingers.It's not as scientific as the suggested settings for the known values on the other sims.And I have to adjust it then save for any amp.But it feels fine enough as I use real Marshalls too and I can only compare them for my own songs.It's not as nightmarish as it's made out though. Thank you !
Yep. That's something I did rather quickly (to put the interface gain to zero). But we end up with a weak signal (as we can see in the DAW at 15:10), which still puzzles me.
You have covered a really hot topic ... You are a hero !! 🎉🎉😀😀 ... Amp sims were gr8 but now us guitar fraternity want to behave exactly 100% like a real deal ... which is how the companies built them for at first place 🎉🎉😊😊
Thanks! Glad you like the video, I do think this method takes us a bit closer towards getting the plugins to behave how the real amp would given the same guitar/pickups.
I think what makes it complicated is that I seem to remember something about each amp model in AT5 has a different zero values. I'll look into it again.
It's damning on every plugin company that they didn't tell us NOT to follow 'convention' !! It's also damning on every youtube reviewer not to tell us how they got all thos superb clean sounds....they were clearly told what to do here !!
@@ChrisM541 I'm scratching my head about this too. I'm not a good guitar player, but I can manage to get a decent sound while recording .. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why this Soldano Neural plug-in I bought sounded so muddy and so freakin noisy. You keep hearing people say, "Just get right below clipping". Why is Neural DSP not straight up telling people up front to disregard this concept and just turn the damn interface down? It's just so stupid.
According to sheet document of Ed S. in my case I should be engaging PAD od my Behringer UMCS204HD. dialing +4.8 gain in plugin. Unfortunately, it's not enough, what is noticeable when I'm going through presets of other artists. My guitar has quite hot pickups for metal stuff, so that's not the case. Sustain is quite low, can't do pitch harmonics that well etc. I tried disengaging PAD button, that was better, but too hot sometimes. I've got better results dialing forbidden gain knob at my interface, so it's hitting -12dbfs in DAW and it's more natural and responsive that way.
David, I just happened on this one last night and tried it immediately. Goodness, night and day difference! My current interface (M Audio Duo) wasn't on the spreadsheet but the idea of lowering the input gain was massive. My problem previously was that there's too much presence and the pick attack totally ate up the volume. Zeroing down on the input gain gave me a much clearer tone.
I had an issue getting my heavy guitar tones sitting in the mix and this makes so much sense. The interface acts as something like a tubescreamer effect if the gain is up.
Ther problem I get is that with the gain at zero it sounds great but the wave form in reaper is so small that it's almost impossible to really see well if I want to do dual guitars and make sure things are aligned well
Interesting, i have come to the same conclusion to set the input gain really low generally (was listening for noise floor). But I also almost always use one and the same Impulse Response, no matter what. Just seems to sound best with my not so great guitar, haha. I also tend to put a very quick attack and release compressor in front of the amp, kind of like a stomp. If you haven't already try the Tonex plugin by IK Multimedia, there are tons of amps to check out and most of it is really close to an actual amp sound.
Exact setup plugins you use.. ive used other amp sim plugins for 16-17 years now.. and ive always wondered why everything sounded like over saturated and everything would sound boomy and muddy. I accidentally figured this out about a month ago.. holy crap what a difference ! Then, of course, the audio tracks in my daw are all super small so I thought I was crazy. Then, right after all these videos came out, talking about this !
@@fuzzymuppet1990 Hey! I'm facing the same issue. All the amp sim plugins I'm using on my i9 computer through RME Babyface Pro FS and also on focusrite scarlett solo 2nd gen are sounding very very boomy an muddy. I tried to lower the input gain on interface to zero. Although the saturation reduced, but it's still way too muddy and boomy. Totally unusable. Can you please tell me what were your issues and did you find a solution? Really trying to get a usable guitar tone and make the plugins sound just like they are supposed to since last 10 years. They sound very boomy and dark and muddy and lifeless.
To make this easier for people to gain stage, why don’t the manufacturers show something in the meter to indicate an ‘ideal’ input range? It’s mad that they just leave you guessing like this. I really like the Neural Morgan and Tone King but they sound tons better after doing this.
Since i'am as a bedroom guitarist with no real amp😂, and too bad for me that i have small amount of knowledge about how the real amp sound compare to plugin that i used. For the start before record any guitar, usually do the gain staging and matching the sound based on my ear😂 not based on the real amp because i dont have anything to compare, but for better sound, i think your trick could be useful for me and others to try. Because mostly i've struggle with my sound reference, probably because of the inacurate input staging.
Maybe correct gain staging was assumed knowledge to use plugins effectively. A good audio interface with nice converters does make a difference as well. The Neural amp sims sound noticeably better than Fractal to me - hence they are all I use now.
I keep seeing this "Gain at zero" thing, and wonder whether anyone has ever thought about what that actually means and how it differs from one input device to another. It just wont mean the same thing for all devices, I can guarantee you that, as there is NO STANDARD to which all interfaces adhere to. It seems, after a little thought, that the plugins like to see an instrument input (preferably JFET I would think) with the GAIN at UNITY. This is not the same thing as turning the gain knob all the way to the left. The only way you can be sure of finding unity gain on your input channels is : run a test tone generator from your DAW at -18dB (arbitrary level but it should correlate to unity gain at the output which is where the opamp performance is best) route that signal to an output take a balanced TRS jack from that output and connect that to an input channel increase the gain on that input channel until your interface's mixer or your DAW reads -18db That should be where unity gain is set on the preamps of your interface. Mark it with a sharpie, or if it's digitally controlled, note the input gain on the device. I can't think of another foolproof way to establish whether the gain setting on your interface's preamp is at unity or not. Of course, this isn't a problem for anyone using an external instrument preamp which feeds an interface input at line level - unity gain is almost always marked on the input gain legend. DI Boxes, if that's your vibe, also vary with trannies being either 10:1 or 12:1...so there'll be a difference in the level your interface sees depending on the box used.
the issue is more to do with the specs of the A/D converter, so -18dBFS out of a D/A could be a range of different voltages depending on the gear being used. The best way is to send a sine wave out, and measure the actual voltage. Then run that known voltage into your input chain and see what dBFS level you get. From here you can accurately adjust to a known headroom.
@@eds4754 I Don't think that's true about A/D converters...the vast vast majority of interfaces use the same A/D chips. There are only a few in common usage as far as I know, thus keeping the entry level the same for all manufacturers. The difference is in the preamp circuit design either side of the A/D D/A. That's where the magic happens, and that's where it's either good topology or off the shelf designs using the cheapest of the cheap SMD OpAmps. We agree on the solution however; run a test tone out via TRS to an input. All else being equal, the inputs and outputs will be calibrated similarly. None of this would a problem if manufacturers stipulated exactly where unity gain is on the mic pres.
@@stephenfleming8030 you can look at the specs of different converters, they vary in how much voltage (dBu) they can take before clipping. Some converters even allow you to adjust the headroom so you can calibrate them to whatever gear you are using them with. You often hear of -18dBFS because converters will often be designed with +4dBu=0VU with 18dB of headroom, so a 4dBu sine wave would have 18dB of headroom before clipping, and therefore 22dBu of headroom total. There are MANY converters that don't use this definition though. Avid MTRX has 30dBu of headroom, RME varies between 24dBu and 19dB and 13dBu, UAD has 20dBu, Prism and Lynx are different too. so UAD Apollo has 16dBu of headroom, or a 4dBu sine wave would be equal to -16dBFS. This is the exact reason there is confusion about input levels with amp sim plugins too.
@@eds4754 Absolutely, I agree. Just to clear up any confusion I may have caused, when I say 'converter' I'm talking literally about the chip that does the conversion. As we've established, the topology on either side of the converters can vary from circuits that cost pennies, to well designed often transparent circuits like RME pres....a world apart from a small Focusrite Scarlett that's using very cheap smds that need to be handled with care to get the best out of them....to say nothing of the clocking differences between units that use the same physical ADDA chips. I'm assuming that the 'majority' of interested parties here are guitarists, rather than primarily engineers. I don't know if that assumption is fair or warranted? If that is the case however, then it's doubly difficult to explain what's going on with input gains and how they should be set taking account of all the variables at play. I've tried external pres at unity, and it seems to be ballpark. For guitarists maybe a decent active DI box is the best solution - an active Radial DI for guitar is 140 EU, and you'll have it for life. For the lazier, or the skint...Tonex software has pre-recorded guitar parts built in which are DIs from fairly easily identifiable pick up types - one could always match the input gain to them if you're in a pinch.
@@stephenfleming8030 what about converters that don’t use any preamps? They all vary - There simply isn’t a standard for defining an analog voltage as a dBFS level. It has nothing to do with preamps, or other circuitry in this case. They are just spec’d different for different demands and price brackets. and so setting a preamp to unity doesn’t help when converters have different specs. Preamp gain is one thing, but the conversion ratio of the converters is another. I would also be careful with Radial DI’s because many of them have impedances far below 1M Ω which means they’ll load passive pickups incorrectly and get poor results. They’re well made DI’s, but for many guitars you’d need to run a buffer in front. I use an Avalon U5, but there are many suitable DI’s with 1M Ω or greater that I think are more suitable.
@@DavidBeebeeyeah I was being overdramatic. I really thought I simply had a bad interface, feels comforting to know there is such an easy fix! Thanks for this video.
@@tshuqwud1693 What were the issues you were facing? For me, all the amp sim plugins sound way too boomy and muddy. Imagine the tone knob on guitar being rolled off. No matter how I adjust the amp sims or IR's, it either sounds very boomy and muddy or very thin and fizzy. As if plugged into a Fuzz pedal. I've tried to adjust the gain knob at 0 on the interface, it only reduced the saturation and input signal into the amp sim plugins, but they still sound very boomy. And yes, I run the guitar cable into the high z input of my interface (tried with RME babyface pro fs and focusrite scarlett solo 2nd gen..) Something is just not right. What was your experience?
Hmm I don't know, but I seem to remember something about amplitube having different targets references for different amp models, which kinda makes things even harder.
08:40 considering this is how virtually every guitarist sets up their audio interface, WHY ON EARTH didn't all those plugin manufacturers shout out loud NOT to do this ??? I mean, wtf !!! Here's the real kicker - EVERY plugin reviewer on youtube was obviously told how to CORRECTLY set the interface for EVERY clean sound they demoed. WHY didn't THEY tell us that important thing to do? !!!
12dBu strummed hard with humbuckers will be roughly at 0dBFS. It’s not a very accurate way to do it though, but it’s the most simple way to recommend. The problem is, this is only true for humbuckers and even then, it would have a wide range of values.
Yes, I should have said this a bit clearer, always go into an instrument hi-z input! I did this on the Presonus in the previous video, and I am also doing so on the Tascam in this video, you can see the switch under the gain pot.
@@DavidBeebee You also should have said you cranked up gain on guitar track in logic.... INSTEAD of hardware input gain on Tascam. Because you STILL need healthy level of your guitar hitting the front of the plugin. Because Ed's video is NOT about plugin or guitars or input level. It's about aligning RANGES of hardware gain of two interfaces.
Hi, I'm not sure I'm following you. I've spoken with Ed a fair bit about this, and he's also commented on this video, saying it's a clear demonstration of the issue. If you watch the video you can clearly hear how the plugin improves and gets closer to the response of the real amp/fm3 when using this method. What do you mean "cranked up the gain on the guitar track in logic"? I have not put a gain plugin on the insert and the track level doesn't have any effect on the input going into the plugin. Can you elaborate on what you mean? @@SugarTouch
@@DavidBeebee Ed S replied in many comments on his video that depending on the interface and plugin being used, you may still need to cut or boost the input signal within the plugin itself, or with a trim/gain plugin before it if the plugin does not have enough range. Lowering the input all the way down to zero on your interface is the get the cleanest signal possible to work with, with the lowest noise floor. You need to then match your given amount of headroom for your interface to whatever threshold the plugin brand used to calibrate their plugin. Do not boost your interface gain EVER (unless you do not care about getting accurate GAIN staging from your plugins!) because you are lowering your headroom and also boosting your noise floor levels, which is much greater than the inaudible margins you get from boosting within plugins; you will not know what amount of headroom you have without using a sine wave to test it, and you probably would not be able to match that specific decibel target to whatever was used to make the plugins. It is also like putting a clean boost pedal or overdrive pedal in front of the amp. Hope this helps, keep rocking! \m/
Wow, I am even more confused now. Getting a healthy (non-clipping) DI signal recorded should be the way to go for signal to noise ratio. If that doesn't work (and it clearly doesn't) isn't there something wrong with the plugin software ? I am using amplibute, and aparently there the problem is the opposite, not enough gain that hits the plugin with a 'normal' input level. Basically, all this should not be an issue, but should be addressed correctly by the plugin developers I think. Or maybe I simply don't get it at all.
If your interface has less than 15dBu of max headroom then gain at 0 is already going to be close to clipping with humbuckers. The noise floor you have to worry about is the loudest source of noise in the chain, which will be in the interference into the pickups (which is much louder than the self noise of the interface). Turning the gain up just raises this background noise more.
Hey David, nice video! I have a question though. How come, at around 14' you have an overdrive and your Gate is at -96Db and there is no noise, humming or hiss whatsoever? Like, everytime I use ANY guitar plugin, there is a very annoying white noise, even without input. Everytime it looks like I'm running a wall of 30 Marshalls JCM800 with the volumes on 10. I'm using a UA Volt 276. Thanks
Thanks! Yea noise issues could be a ton of different things. I do run some strip silence in between the playing gaps, so that could be giving the illusion that it's quieter than it is?
Hey David, great playing! Gonna pick up that plugin and will try the same settings. Your guitar is gorgeous, is that a custom shop model? What pickups do you use?
Hello, I have a silly question, but what should be the volume in the guitar volume? because I understand the Input in the interface has to be 0 and the plugin at noon, but what about the guitar?
Guitar is wherever you like it, just like when you use a real amp. The goal of calibrating is so that ANY guitar you use, no matter how the volume is set, which pickups, if you are using pedals etc, the plugin would respond just the same as the real amp.
Thanks dude, feel like I've finally turned a positive corner with the plugin thing. Kind of exciting really, can go back through previous ones I've bought and explore.
@@DavidBeebee yeah dude! Know exactly what you mean- Had that same feeling and experience with the the plugins. The Morgan suite is one of the best imo and having been playing about and recording with it the last few days, I feel I’m getting the most of it now… Glad you turned that frustrating corner too! Lol
It's a damn shame that these plugins have been around for a decade and this information is just now getting out. I used to get so frustrated with Helix Native and how it was impossible to sound anywhere near as good as my Floor unit. I went as far as plugging the floor directly into the audio interface and not using the plugin over how bad it sounded. At the same time, I'm sure the designers are sitting there thinking that they can't believe it took these neanderthal guitarists a decade to just plug it in like a real amp and not touch the input, hahaha!
What were the issues you were facing? For me, all the amp sim plugins sound way too boomy and muddy. Imagine the tone knob on guitar being rolled off. No matter how I adjust the amp sims or IR's, it either sounds very boomy and muddy or very thin and fizzy. As if plugged into a Fuzz pedal. I've tried to adjust the gain knob at 0 on the interface, it only reduced the saturation and input signal into the amp sim plugins, but they still sound very boomy. And yes, I run the guitar cable into the high z input of my interface (tried with RME babyface pro fs and focusrite scarlett solo 2nd gen..) Something is just not right. What was your experience?
1) Use this guy’s advice. 2) Make sure your guitar doesn’t have shoddy wiring or soldering. 3) Make sure your PC isn’t attached to a rat’s nest plugged into an outlet that was wired during the Great Depression. 4) Don’t try to break physics. If the sound in your head is big speakers, use big speakers. If it’s double tracked guitars, stack amp sims and hard pan L/R. If it’s polished compress the piss out of it and EQ it. If it’s drop tuned. Drop tune. If it’s baritone, play a freaking baritone. You get it. 5) Some amp sims or speaker IRs need the top end rolled off slightly or it will definitely sound fizzy. 6) Mud is around 2-300hz. Try scooping some out without killing your tone. 7) It’s the digital age, stack plugins until latency kills your fun. Use different channels, use buses, have fun! 8) You’re the only who cares about your tone and if it really sucks, people will tell you. 9) If you have to overuse a gate, there is a problem with your setup or input levels. 10) Consider buying a real amp and attenuating it for bedroom play if you still hate amp sims. 11) If you still hate your tone, sell everything you own, buy tickets to your favorite guitarists show, sneak on stage and photograph his amps and pedal board and knobs. Just buy that lol. Good luck!
