I Hacked up a T20S... 

Like I said, I don't think it's a significant issue that shouldn't make any difference to anyone's decision but it is odd to have made that choice in this day and age

@@Kabab Clearly there wont be a massive difference between them, but that is generally true of gimbals. Fact remains that a good pot sensor is generally better than a hal effect sensor, as it offers higher precision and linearity, and far better temperature stability, as well as feeling different (which you may or may not like). But its not only the sensor. The entire gimbal is different. Jumper didnt design these gimbals, they where designed by JR propo (google "Propo ELITE CNC gimbal"), and used to cost $200 per gimbal. That was many years ago, and before hal effect became more popular. My best guess is that jumper bought their inventory (Propo went bankrupt) and is now selling them as a premium gimbal upgrade, much like radiomaster does with the AG01, just at a price premium that actually makes sense. If true, the supply wont be endless, unless they bought the tooling from them too.

@@Kabab because as he stated there ARE benefits to quality pots. The only actual benefit a hall has is lifetime and that's really only relevant when compared to cheap pots when you take care of your gimbals. A quality POT will outlast the radio and provide a cleaner signal both in practical use and across temperature ranges. It is a choice that goes against trends, but the issues with the gimbals is not that they decided to use pots.

@@Foremi again, as I responded above, the fact that they went with pots, whether they be good or crap quality, should not matter to anyone's decision. There are no issues with pots inside the lifetime of pretty much any controller I've personally seen.

~8.5" from bottom of palm to end of middle finger

can you believe this guy is a dentist? better open wide lmao

Mine is 7.75" and I wear size 11.5 - 12 shoes. You gotta be sporting 13's...

​@@Kababjeeeez man

@@TAGE_FPV I used to only work as a pedodontist when I first graduated too. I really have no issue at all with dentistry and my hands despite what it may seem like 😅

I tried centering and doing it again. Doesn't make any difference. I can sometimes get some of them to calibrate correctly but then they don't work right on the home screen. I can see how you could run into the switches but I don't have that issue personally. Not hard to just remove them however. Plenty of other switches

Yeah really hope someone copies the emax or emax makes a high quality completed version

Unfortunately I don't. I'm not interested in the pocket because the gimbals are really really small. It's unfortunate. If they just gave it large gimbals it would be excellent

You are in great luck then. There are an endless selection of controllers that will fit your needs.

Right I would love to see some XY sliders but I haven't used or felt any to be able to speak of. I do find it difficult to imagine a mechanism that can be as smooth and free as a gimbal that is pivoting on an axis. Also, if you have to use linear bearings and such, it's probably going to need to have a larger footprint?

@@Kabab i was thinking of the type used in audio mixers maybe two in y to carry the one in x it will take up at least as much space as the amount of travel you want to have gimbals have the advantage in size, because they have a lever

Totally forgot to cover that. The damn ring gets in the way of moments and it does absolutely nothing. There is no point at all. The emax controller is just that much better for not being a mess

😂 it was my lab drill I used. Dental drills are too tiny. I needed more meat on the bur/bit

Isn't m2 a boxer 2? THere is a boxer m2.

@@rcrotorfreak No dude... That's Mode 2, throttle being on the left side. Mode 1 is throttle on the right side. That's what M1 and M2 are. Not versions.

Yeah I forgot to point that out. The first two times I put the case back together I didn't plug the UFL back in because I didn't realize they got unplugged when I gently pulled it apart. Quite odd to make the slack on that wire so short and also put it on a board that is across the other side of the casing

Maybe. I'm not sure if the wiring matches

How to connect this remort to mobile via bluetooth to get telemetry data

If you drive a car where the steering wheel only turns 90deg full steering left to full steering right, it's very difficult to drive the car. The steering would be very erratic with small movements of the wheel. Same thing for the sticks. If there's only a very small amount of travel, it's significantly more difficult to fly

Hall sensor is better by nature. It's not really a comparison

You should have just stuck with your QX7...I have... And many others too.

Still using the old qx7 cant find something better

@@mikihay Same here! Yup, took a long time many years ago when it first came out deciding which radio to get so I didn't have to re-spend my money to get the right one. QX7 was the winner and still is today! I've never found a reason to own two radios. I modified it some. Bought all short switches and replaced all the top toggles. Made custom 3S li-ion exact fit batteries for exact size of battery area. Worked great and super cheap. Used exact size cell phone batteries. 😎🤘

Don't change. There's nothing better or even different

I have never even seen it set up to be able to do something like that. I would assume that very few people are able to do that and this is why it should have a screen still

@@Kabab yes. There are several Edgetx lua scripts that will do it. I use the INAV lua, which works just as well with betaflight.

apparantly they just got the latest BF on the board. I haven't checked it out yet. DO NOT buy the board for a full 5". It can't handle the noise as I expected. It'll work for a typical 3.5", 3" cinewhoop or smaller. Might work okay for a very light 5" but I wouldn't bother at all with any of these AIO boards for a 5" or up.

@@Kabab thanks, what about 2203 2800kv 6s 3 inch whoops? Not all escs can handle that rpms and they fall into desyncs.

@@fpv_am I'm not specifically worried about the RPM, I'd be more worried about the spike in amperage and symmetrical spike in back EMF. I would expect it to do fine since the board has better ESC's on it than most every other AIO I've seen. Still don't know until tested. That compatibility table they have listed on the product page on Aliexpress is unfortunately all false.

The ag01 isn't full size either unfortunately

@@KababWait what, boxer standard gimbal is full size but ag01 isnt? I thought you said you like the boxer because its full size.

@@definingslawek4731 boxer standard is not full size. It's only full size once you add a spacer to the sticks to drop them into the controller by ~8mm. Then you get a bit more than full range and it feels absolutely luxurious

@@Kabab is it possible to drop the t20 gimbals? I find the boxer a little uncomfortable atm without dropped gimbals, like in terms of hitting full stick deflection. It’s so big and heavy I can’t believe everyone calls it compact. I have never used a lanyard before but I feel like I need to learn to with this. I’m trying to find someone in my area that has a t20 cause it looks so much comfier to me. The dji mini 3 pro radio with the display is super comfy I wish there was an fpv radio thing and light like that one with big gimbals.

@@definingslawek4731 I would very strongly advise AGAINST the T20. Also, it's hard to understand how our tech is so ancient and bares tags like 'compact' because most are unaware of just how incredibly awful and enormous the old stuff was from back in the day long before FPV. The T20's quality is challenged and I would not call it 'comfortable' to hold due to how incredibly thick it is and how awkward the back is shaped. The controller is about an inch shorter but all the other dimensions are the same or bigger. The gimbals cannot be dropped on the T20. If you want to consider anything other than a Boxer, I would recommend the Jumper T14. It's slightly smaller overall but the gimbals cannot be dropped and have med-short throw on them. The overall quality of the radio is improved over the T20 but not a whole lot. You can drop the gimbals in on the T14 but it will take a fair bit of hacking up the module bay that you then wouldn't be able to use. If you are a thumber, you'll kinda be fine with anything. If you are a hybrid or pinch grip at all, the options are severely limited. The boxer with dropped gimbals is simply the very best radio that exists on the market today. Adding the spacers to the gimbals on the boxer is very easy and involves almost zero modding.

Don't think so but not sure.

@@Kabab So I mainly going to use it for fixed wing as I stay on Crossfire on the quads - generally you still like this one?

@@FLYANDI I'm not a big fan of the controller but I do appreciate the design that does work in it

Get the pyrodrone gimbals for the tango 2 ❤

did they fixed the falling bearings ?@@ZenoErwt

The AG01 and any other third party gimbal is not full range. The only full range gimbals I currently know of are the X9D, QX7 and the emax gimbals in that whoop controller. Literally no other gimbal I've used or looked at will do 44mm or more, end to end. If the controller was designed right, being able to work with a ~55mm end to end gimbal would also be no problem and overall much better

​@@KababDoesn't moving that far on your gimbals contort your hand? I feel like people already overwhelmingly use the center part of their sticks except for snap moves, why in the world would you want to bent 55mm over?

@@geometerfpv2804 I'd say most people actually have a very soft center and use the mid range on the gimbal more. My center area does very little so I can be very smooth if I want to be. If the controller casing isn't so darn fat, it's not hard to reach the ends of a 55mm travel stick or even more. Still, I feel the original X9D's 44mm travel is a good standard to go by. Also, if the pivot point of the gimbal is placed appropriately, your hand doesn't need to contort through the arc of the sticks travel so much.

Yeah I show it in the boxer video.

Appropriate request. It's just that I don't know anyone that spends too much time setting things up on the controller. You can also plug it into a computer and use the companion app. Screen can stay and it's not really that big of a deal and doesn't take up much space. Unfortunately the controller generally isn't that great.

You can have all that but only in the largest possible design. This is how it seems to go and I don't understand why they even bother wasting all the plastic to make such a large casing.

The hall effect ones are the T-20 gimbals which are reduced travel unfortunately

That doesn't mean they are actually in stock. There are tons of pop-up Chinese stores claiming to have them, most don't. For example, I bought a T20. The store emailed me claiming they didn't actually have any and trying to get me to switch to a T20s. They said it was "unknown" when more T20 would arrive. Fits with the "discontinued" narrative. It's not like all these shops have the official scoop from Jumper, they are just posting crap and hoping you press "buy"...then they sort it out later.

@@geometerfpv2804 My point was that hall effect is an option, it wasnt clear in the video that focused on the sensor version. I never said anything about whats in stock, on Banggood none of the variants are, it is just for pre-order.

@@geometerfpv2804 this is not an uncommon story now. I only discovered that it seems to have been discontinued the day before recording the video. I still don't understand why but I'm sure there's a reason for it

Rdc90 is pure marketing gimmick. Nobody will ever feel the supposedly higher precision, which comes with huge trade off in durability

​​@@yoyominIt's not a "huge tradeoff", there are people with 10 year old pot radios that work fine...people latch on to one take from one video, and suddenly it's gospel...if nobody told the user what kind of gimbals they had, they would never know, or care...

@@geometerfpv2804 of course you'll find working pots from decades ago, so will you find hall sensors that goes faulty within a week. This doesn't change the fact that the contactless hall sensor is much more durable than pot, which is basically a leaf spring scraping on a thin carbon layer. I had to replace numerous mouse wheel rotary encoders (basically what they use in pot type gimbals), even the supposedly high quality ones like ALPS within 1 - 2 years of use. So yes the trade off in durability is huge.

So frustrating. They could have had something great

Na probably not that drastic but it does make a difference

Lmao no you are not hindering your progress, Bob is unbelievably picky for strange reasons that you couldn't make up if you try

@@geometerfpv2804 I'm picky but if you hold these controllers side by side, I'd bet you'd choose the boxer without going through the details. You'd be torn between the size of the T20S and the quality of the boxer. The T20S gimbals are just bad and not nice to use. Default or hacked up. Just no good.

Not sure how the response of linearity could be different since it's all governed by code anyway and hall sensors have less friction/moving parts but alright 🤷🏻‍♂️

Rdc90 = marketing gimmick. Nobody will feel the difference. If there is then it's just badly calibrated gimbal.

I'm pretty sure they sent me the typical T20S

Nope. They're pots. You can easily look up the spec sheet

@@Kabab seems so, I guess some people got confused and just assumed the premium version would be hall effect. Ah well, for once the cheaper version is actually better!

@@deice3 better if you're not looking for a gimbal that has full range. It's not adjustable

You can plug it into a computer and use your whole computer screen with the companion app. Are you doing mixed daily on the fly?

Well you're in luck because I usually read that bullet point sheet after I'm done shooting and editing the video 😂. Wait till you see my review of a new Emax product at the end of September. I clearly did not understand the assignment when they sent it to me. Stay tuned.

@@Kabab Awesome, man! Thank you. Looking forward to it.

That's actually been tried by Valve with gaming controllers. Their track pads are not bad. Not good imo but not any worse than tiny game controller gimbals for FPS primarily. The gimbals mechanism that's typically used isn't bad. They just need to size it accordingly and package the controller such that it works with the gimbal rather than independently

Grip joystick like F-16

Coz RDC90 is way better than Hall brotha

How on earth is any pot better than a hall sensor. 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️ Even cheap hall sensors are generally better at everything.

@@Kabab this is exactly why people must not pretend to be experts at stuff outside of their understanding. Love your motor experiments and all, but you gotta learn some stuff about pots in gimbals. For gods sake this is ALPS pot man. Not your regular 30 bucks beginner radio with crap pots that break in 2 months.

@@ViralFailsCN I definitely do not pretend to be an expert in anything. I also hated when others do that and thank you for putting me and my place and pointing it out. I can appreciate when a product of past generations is built to a much higher quality standard than anything that's new age however in this case, even the spec sheet on these gimbals claim three or five times the accuracy fluctuation compared to a hall sensor. I do understand also that Paul sensors are not quite as linear as potentiometers because of the nature of the arc of motion and how it interacts with the IC on the board but everything we use is so heavily ingrained with software that it shouldn't make any difference at all with how we use the radio. Even so, I used multiple potentiometer controllers that were cheap for many years way back when and never had any issue. I don't even think there's an issue with cheap pots in radios, it's just not the norm to use anymore which is weird that they choose to. Again, realistically this feature makes no difference and isn't even worth mentioning other than the fact that it is an interesting choice that they made

@@Kabab well hey, ultimately I agree 99.9% of us won't likely feel any difference between a great pot and a hall.

Have you seen the Pocket?

​@@KyrreXXLPocket is in a different league. This has gimbals that aren't toys, and 4 times the power.

@@geometerfpv2804 Thats true, but the op wanted RM to make an even smaller and more compact radio than the T20, and they have. And it seems that people like it the way it is, considering its price.

@geometerfpv2804 the whole point of this video is that the so called "not toy" gimballs here are not that good, haven't seen much complaints about the pocket so far, also four time the transmission power doesn't mean four time the range so not sure, I'd better have radiomaster keeping upgrading the pocket which has a perfect transportable size than creating yet another mid size radio like the boxer

@@metalfpv The rule is in fact that you need 4X the power to get 2X the range. So 1W gives you twice the range of 250mw. 250mw never bothered me with my Zorro, but it may be insufficient for some. Then again, a RM module with 1W is 40$, and the Pocket CC2500 is 55, so for 105 you can have a 1W Pocket.

I don't know if I specifically need to work for them but they need somebody that just looks at the market with common sense and also uses the product themselves. I believe the real issue here is consumerism. These companies just want to make something that people will buy. They don't care if it's good or if it works or anything about it. This is unfortunately what stunts innovation these days.

Only few people have common sense. They even call them highly intelligent when those just think they have common sense.

Why on earth does futaba use those 🤷🏻‍♂️

But at least you've shed some light on the why which makes sense

Still one of the top 5 radios imo. The Boxer does rank higher for me now however. Only after my mods but it is very nice and especially nice not to need some other things shoved in or on the module bay.

@@Kabab Do you have a review on the Taranis xd9?

@@NorgeSquad it's so old that I don't recommend it anymore. But if someone already has one, you're good to go unless something that is genuinely better exists. That one is the boxer at the moment. It's literally the first radio that's actually better than the x9d. Only after my mods however and only slightly better.

@@Kabab I agree. I tried the standard boxer at an event. After all these good comments. But nah. I rather use my x9d as my daily driver

I dunno bout that but I do wish someone that actually flies would use the product and they would take real feedback. It seems like they're just looking to make something they can sell rather than something that's actually good

Well the gimbals isn't the only issue unfortunately. Just the biggest

It's not about arc distance, it's about the stick end travel distance. You actually want the stick as low as it'll go in the casing such that the stick isn't flopping over at full deflection. Human fingers don't move like that. Also, in every single gimbal situation I've inspected, the gimbal travel is not limited by the rings it's mounted in. This means dropping it in does not limit its movement. You extend the sticks and you just get more travel at the same height with less of a pivot angle. All metrics improved

@@Kabab but then you have to increase the length of the gimbal creating a longer travel path - unless you're a thumber. But if you pinch or hybrid grip, having it too low means your fingers hit the casing forcing you to lengthen the gimbal by screwing the stick end out further, creating a larger fulcrum/motion of movement over the gimbals arc. I've just been through all this trying to get my RM Boxer comfortable.

@@michaelwindow87 yes. Dropped gimbals ~8mm with longer sticks that are the same height as original will yield about 10mm more lateral travel. I made a video on my boxer mods which is exactly this. Brain3D now sells the boxer gimbal drop sleeves.

@@Kabab I had lights in mine, but removed them so the gimbal was higher and I could have the stick ends as short as possible without my fingers hitting the casing. With it dropped down I had to extend the gimbals high enough to stop my fingers hitting, but then the throw was too large to be comfortable for me. If I was a thumber I would drop them down as you don't have the issue of your index finger hitting the casing like you do when you hybrid pinch. That's all I was getting at. Horses for courses lol.

That's exactly it. Good effort, 💩 quality. Jumper is publicly stating that I don't know what I'm talking about on Facebook. Kinda hard to argue that the gimbal doesn't run into itself and it doesn't have wildly variable vertical vs horizontal travel

This isn't a small hand controller. If you are a thumber, it'll work but not ideal. It also only takes 18650 or a 2s.

It's the quality, Bro. All Jumper gear is low quality, breaks down, and isn't worth buying.

The AG01 are not full size. They're not actually any bigger than the default gimbals.

I am going to stick with my V1 T pro ,, The Plastic full size Hall Gimbals are fine for me and super smooth and I actually like a lighter unit .. the plastics hall gimbles are in some $1000 radios so that cannot be that bad ,, The metal looks nice but i run most my drones cutoff at 30 for racing so very little stick movement @@Kabab

😂 yeah they're nice to have but don't need'em

I guess wing pilots use them?

😂 would need to be REALL hot and my hands would probably mould just as much as the plastic then

@@Kabab just use heat gloves, easy, and nice grip done ;]

@@RcReviewsLt dental gloves. Sure 😂

😑 unfortunately this has been my experience with jumper too. I just didn't want to assume it was universal

No I took a picture with my phone. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I didn't know until someone else pointed it out to me. Then I looked into it and am just confused by the decision

@@Kabab yeah me to I don’t know why the choice. I heard a review of saying thy used the upgraded metal gimbals. But thy are not metal lol

@@jtcustomknives no they're absolutely not metal at all. The cosmetic ring around the gimbal is metal. Everything else is plastic

Definitely got me to pay attention to what was shaking

Nobody needs to watch anything I make or listen to anything I say. The more time you spend on this stuff, the more you want to improve your gear. I'm personally just disappointed that these manufacturers continue to make the same garbage over and over. If they just pay a little attention, we will have good gear for the same money and effort. If nobody cared or paid any attention, all we'd have are junk toys. The things I and others make get copied because they become popular and the Chinese companies try to make a buck off the heels of the popularity. That's what happens when you have 100% of the manufacturing potential and nearly zero innovation or care. You just look for shit to copy and sell instead of make your own products and actually pay attention

​@@KababI'm just poking fun at you, I know you spend a lot of time thinking out your optimal user experience...you've got to admit it's kind of funny. I actually appreciate how different the Jumper radio is, it feels like a bit of a mold-breaker. Nothing crazy, but it's different.

@@geometerfpv2804 yeah they definitely stepped out of the box a bit. Just forgot to take the box with them while they did.

😂 it's actually great right now but could be a LOT better.

Yes I appreciate that and understand. You are fortunate to have so many options

@@Kabab what we need is a truly adaptable gimbal, so you and I can set the range we feel right for our hands.

@@WKfpv yes that is absolutely what we need and it really does not seem that difficult. The jumper gimbal has all the ingredients, just isn't proportioned and adjusted to work right.

What you describe is not actually how it works. The sensors in any gimbal can sense a range of movement far greater than the rotation of any gimbal. When calibrating in a controller, it picks up whatever range is accessable. There is zero software limit. The actual number of steps is a non-issue. Imo even 256 steps will feel continuous to any human. The benefit here is that your human fingers get more range of motion to modulate what you're trying to do. Imagine driving a car where the steering wheel only turns 60deg lock to lock. That means just 30deg to the right has you doing U turns. This would be pretty much impossible for a human to drive at freeway speeds. This is why it's normal to have 2.5 full rotations on a car from lock to lock. Now look at the gimbals you use to fly. You only get a few centimeters of travel and you're performing ridiculous numbers of 360deg rotations as well as very slight 1deg rotations. Sure we have software to put the movement on a curve but at some point, the difference between no movement and full movement is just to short of a span and your human fingers do not operate on such a tiny range of movement. Now take it a step further and imagine trying to fly smoothly while your riding in a bumpy car or getting thrown around in the car while it's drifting. If you have more range on the stick, the jostles from getting thrown around won't appear in your flying as much and stabilization software can do a far better job. The scenario of flying from a moving vehicle is very common for FPV. I personally enjoy it a lot since you're always coming up on new environment and not just flying circles around yourself.

@@Kabab you just said what I said. You have full range, because range is perceived by software - it's arbitrary. You're looking at resolution, not range. Range remains constant. A longer fulcrum means less movement at the sensor, for more movement at the stick end. You get a artificial increase in resolution this way, (perceived as less sensitivity) but the range remains the same. My point is that describing the concept of resolution (and perceived sensitivity) as 'range' can be misleading. People may assume you cannot reach +125\-125 without altering the gimbals - which isn't true. The gimbals aren't defective in this way , they just use a smaller aperture, making them more sensitive than you prefer. I agree about the moving while fpv'ing thing. Working on a video including some of this soon :)

So sorry for the annoyance. I'm actually pretty surprised that no other review I saw mentioned the shockingly poor quality. Good news is that you can swap out the gimbals and it's not that hard. Had news is that the rest is still meh

No that's not a valid general complaint. It's a personal one. My primary complaint is gimbal quality and overall quality. Take another look

Looks great absolutely. Unfortunately the gimbals are just not good.

I don't think they do. They're less interested in making a good product and more interested in just making something that they can reasonably sell. The review circuit is powerful and even my review will result in a number of people buying it.

That may have been true 10-15yrs ago but it's not quite true anymore since our controls are so ingrained with software. The sticks are merely an interface for human hands and there's loads of software assistance for the rest. The sensors aren't an issue, it's just odd to see them have made that choice in this day.

Note that these bits that the news collects are of the absolute worst of the worst of the worst and usually because that particular area has very poor irrigation or the areas around it have very poor irrigation. The biggest tragedy here is that the entire state is not set up to collect rainwater and preserve it. We are perpetually in the worst drought ever primarily because the state is so darn inefficient at this one aspect. Also, I'm not in those areas I am in Los Angeles and specifically in Hollywood which did not see more than just a typical rain. I definitely feel for those areas that got more and ran into issues however.

Yes I know this to be true as well. I just couldn't poo poo on them more than I already did. It is a huge step up for them but their level was way way down to begin with.

The casing of the T-20 doesn't fit a pinch grip well