I feel like the Probe should be S+, because a single Probe can cause your opponent to completely lose their mind, whether you are building cannons or not.
This is a list for World Championship gameplay, like Serral for Hero, not for ladder heroes. The number of times a top tier player has lost a round in a best of 3/5/7 because of a cannon rush is only about once or twice a year.
The balance council should give us a couple weeks when every unit is returned to its most broken state so we can enjoy the madness. Give us Infested Terran Infestors VS Ghosts with EMPs that hit the whole map VS archon toilet
With how many custom game people can make in SC2, I always wondered why nobody made SC2 OpOp game mode with each unit at whatever their lower cost is, plus all the best balance/buffs they ever got.
More games should have Edition Select from Street Fighter (4) which let you select characters in specific versions (patches) of that game I always wonder how it was like as someone who just got into the game
Trust me, your examples are the LEAST of your worries if every unit is in their most OP state, minus the infestor, but for a different reason. Hellbats with 30 atk vs light units without upgrades and 2 cargo size, medivacs picking up sieged tanks, reapers with 30 anti building damage, adepts twoshotting scvs and marines, mothership core singlehandedly carrying the protoss early game, '19 season swarm hosts with nydus worms, etc etc.
I've seen a lot of people name the Queen as the best unit in all of SC2 and I cant help but wonder if they really gave that statement proper thought. Winter is absolutely right that Zerg cannot survive without it, but... 1. is no longer a viable combatant past min 7-8. 2. much like canon rushes, the German Taxi builds are "win with it or might as well GG" and I think its harder to be the aggressor in those games than the defender 3. most serious zergs have 5-8 queens. that's 10-16 supply that doesnt move with your army, on a race where you generally need more army supply than your enemy to win a fight because the whole race is designed to be less effective/supply than the other 2 races. You cant get rid of this of this 'baggage' because you always need injects and creep -- so you're basically stuck with playing the game at 185 supply because of this unit. Lets also not forget that you need more drones than the other 2 races, so your army supply is even more limited. 4. Overall as a singular unit at the start of the game, the Queen is good a unit for its role. Is it OP? I would say no, considering the drawbacks of >needing< them. 5. Its an APM consumer at all stages of the game. If it was easy to inject/remember injecting, most zergs wouldnt have issue with it. Far as I can tell, only Serral has mastered the art of injecting, and that says a lot, considering the game is out for 15 years. Finally, my 2 cents on Corruptors. I wish there was a lower tier than B. Its the only unit that becomes utterly useless once its done its job. At least the banelings have the decency to die and clear your supply once they're done. Not corruptors, though... Nono.. you get to be stuck with some 30-40useless supply everytime you build them and you've won the fight. Its not like they can do anything in few numbers, as per zerg unit rules...so you are both forced to mass them, while also knowing you'll need to kill them off once the air battle is won. I wish caustic spray was replaced with "reclamation" or some crap that allowed you to salvage them like terran bunkers. Much love, Winter. Keep the content coming, brother o/
kinda the same issue protoss has where the other races are expected to be able to fight a protoss army of significantly higher value which maakes them expensive for their power
"1. is no longer a viable combatant past min 7-8. " Its not supposed to be an attacking unit so its fine. Also, its equally as viable on defense at minute 7 as at minute 30. "3. most serious zergs have 5-8 queens. that's 10-16 supply that doesnt move with your army" Right, but terran needs the same amount of supply in support units like the Medivac if not more so.... Also, they don't have the economy or the ability to rebuild those units or the ability to see half the map for free by minute 5 and so on. "on a race where you generally need more army supply than your enemy to win a fight because the whole race is designed to be less effective/supply than the other 2 races." Except that they have the advantage of delaying the enemy army for a very long time due to creep because they almost always win fights on creep because of the baneling. And the advantage of always being on the defense and so on... "so you're basically stuck with playing the game at 185 supply because of this unit." If Terran or Protoss had access to such a unit they would gladly sacrifice 15 supply for them. Come on now! It gives air + ground defense + scouting + economy + on demand healing. How can you look at all that and pretend it is not OP? "Lets also not forget that you need more drones than the other 2 races, so your army supply is even more limited." Right.... because having more bases and workers is such a disadvantage. "4. Overall as a singular unit at the start of the game, the Queen is good a unit for its role. Is it OP? I would say no, considering the drawbacks of >needing< them. " Soooooooooo.... it is OP, but you just pretend that the race's reliance on them makes them not OP....somehow.... Its true that the Queen exists to make up for things Zerg lacks, but lets not pretend that they are not OP and lets not pretend that the playstyle they are "forced" into playing is not beneficial to them to the max. You are making it seem like them being reliant on the Queen is a drawback when in reality , the fact that what they always do is this predictable yet impossible to stop is a good thing for them , not a bad thing.
@@shadowpriest2574 "Right.... because having more bases and workers is such a disadvantage." Did you leave out the "small" detail that Zerg always trades unfavorable (aka you lose more ressources than your opponent), unless you happen to be named "Serral", on purpose? That's the reason Zerg has a bigger economy - because they lose more ressources.
@@shadowpriest2574 This is such a disingenuous reply... 'Also, its equally as viable on defense at minute 7 as at minute 30.' -- Flatout wrong. Queens are like roaches... excelent in early game. on life support in mid-game..and absolutely dead weight as combatants in late game. At best you can squeeze some injects from them, but 50heal aint it when you got 130supply worth of terran or toss dps incoming, chief. Past early game I''ve sometimes seen them used to heal red ultras but that was outside of combat, and these events are happening in pro matches, where they could spare the AMP, and still dont use them as combat healers, except for early game/german taxi tactic. 'Right, but terran needs the same amount of supply in support units like the Medivac if not more so...' -- Medivacs gives any other troop unequalled mobility , instant pickup not just for bio but also mech (Queen: ??? ), healing potential >in combat< at any stage of the game (queen has healing potential only defensively and the healing falls off in lategame), can be used offensively and defensively (queen only defensively). The medivac is an excellent tool for its role: a dedicated healer and force multiplier. The queen is a amalgamation of macro and micro mechanics that were hamfisted into each other, and somehow it keeps the zerg afloat. In a game like starcraft, you dont want a unit that does everything but all of it half-assed. You want highly specialized tools that are exceptional for what you want to use them. 'Except that they have the advantage of delaying the enemy army for a very long time due to creep because they almost always win fights on creep because of the baneling.' -- Creep is a zerg mechanic...not a queen mechanic. The fact that queens spread the creep is not a good thing. See the above point as to why. Also, love how you mentioned the baneling, which every starcraft player worth their salt will know they are the most cost innefective unit in the game. The only reliable splash dmg that zerg has is in a unit that kills itself and consumes more resources than the enemy to do so. That's a conversation for another day, but just food for thought. 'If Terran or Protoss had access to such a unit they would gladly sacrifice 15 supply for them.' -- Terran and Toss do get certain parts of the queen's macro capabilities without needing supply. Its called chrono and mules. Faster production equivalent to injecting and mining capabilities without spending supply on workers. Terran also get scouting without supply, since orbital commands dont need it to scan vs queens taking up supply in order to exist and spread creep. Would I like to have those mechanics as a Zerg without needing to rely on the queen? Any day of the week. 'Right.... because having more bases and workers is such a disadvantage.' -- somebody above already educated you on that point, so i'll pass... though i'd like to mention that even Serral plays zerg cost-inefectively. That's not a diss on Serral. Its a feature of the race, regardless of who plays it. If having the ability to get more workers and bases comes at the expense of everything else being weaker than your counterparts, then what's the point? Its not an advantage..its a necessity. Try playing as a zerg and only matching your opponent's bases instead of trying to get more. See how many games you win, and then get back to me.
Hi Winter, I feel there should be a tier list per league. Because Oracles might be great, my micro skills are not. Maybe make an A-move tier list for the people who hardly play games :) Cheers, thanks for the daily video. You are so awesome!
Yeah man, he even took the effort to guide you fast to the moments with the graph is completed and the same for each unit of 3 races. That is dedication and love for us, his viewers. I respect that. Kudos to you for your positive comment JG
I still think it's crazy that they didnt give templar the buff by making it impossible to feedback a unit with zero energy when EMP has been in the game since launch
1:01:15 you missed a great 'drops off a cliff' joke... thanks, I think you have some of the best insight into the game and the state of the game out there
Not only fun, but it really, really helps. It can be as engaging as a TV show, and it's talking about units on a videogame. Thanks for being so kind Marina, besides that, did you know that your comment improves the positioning with the search engines? Only by being kind you can do a lot! I am returning to Competitive Play after finishing this video and taking notes. I was on OW2 mostly. But now I want to come back to SC2. This is the only guide and update I need to do it! THANKS Winter!
@@merodriguez81 woohoo 🎉 glad to hear you're going to come back and play! And yes, Winter's casts and commentary are amazing. Hilarious, witty, insightful, informative, and professional. I'm glad you enjoyed as much as I did ☺️
@@marinav3905 Yeah, girl. I just finished my first victory vs easy AI with 60 APM. Not very encouraging, but I was really rusty, even using GRID (that is helpful for all races). It is a shame, but I felt really good by winning. Underchallenged obviously (I was a Gold / platinum player). It is nice to come back. After some several vs. AI I will try to go on Comp and see what kinds of cheese I can expect with a fine wine, of course. Stay well, Marina! Thanks Winters!
This is my chance to finally see ALL the player cards!!! Collectible card game when winter? Actually merch idea, you creat custom card booster packs with whatever cards you design. Prolly can’t use herthstone inspired looks but still pretty coole merch. I know h3h3 did this, I have one of the boosters I want 1% 😂
It pleases me that winter has the same feeling about ghosts as I have for far too long. It is just too good of a late game unit and is almost NEVER a bad choice of build
Hey winter, i would like a little bit of miror matchup. Why not as a bonus anti spoiler game during short series? Also i recently enjoyed more these S- player like scarlett or Has... I got to used and bored watching Clem & Dark
In the grand scheme of the top tier players scarlett and has not not s- tier. They would struggle to even be B tier. Also why would you not enjoy watching the best of the best. Nobody watches trash league in sports. So why would you do it in esports?
@@TheMHB199 Scarlett is top 10 NA Scarlett is top 100 world That's not a struggling B Nobody watches trash league? Yeah i guess that's why bronze league heroes did so well We just want good untertaining games "Best" is just branding
@alexisdrugeon8056 hmm. Maybe I'm being too harsh, but my rating system of tiers for players would be relative for only pros. I wouldn't be including the general playerbase such as bronze league heroes in there. If we were looking at the entire playerbase then any pro player would immediately be high S tier. However if I was using my tier list system only looking at top level pros serral would be the only person in S tier. It's just a difference in how we look at our tier lists, I guess :)
You joke about the tier lists but this is the first video I've watched of yours after like 10 years. Still waiting if you are an evil politician or Keyser Söze (might be both), but I love it and I hope you make the tier list of the best Korean hearthstone cards you had running in the background soon!
Because they suck as attacking units. Bringing them to the front only works as a part of an early-game all-in, and even then you don't actually _want_ them, you're forced to bring them because otherwise oracles, banshees and even void rays completely negate the attack. Actually, even as defensive units, they are really good in early game, but drop off significantly in the mid-game. They're really tanky, but also really weak. You can't defend a marine drop or a zealot warp-in with just queens, you need actual damage units at that point. So all in all I wouldn't put them even in S tier, more like A. You never WANT more queens, that's why they're not amassed after the early game and never a core unit of army compositions. You're forced to build them bc your unit production is too slow without them. Compare that to marines or zerglings - you pretty much always want those. Even if there's hard counters like Colossi or banes on the field, you still want some marines and lings for base defence/harassment/filler.
@@kathorseescompletely disagree. Queens are s tier because of their support capability. Their fighting ability is just a bonus. They are incredible defensive powerhouses from the early to mid game. They are the only way to spread creep tumours. They are the only way to increase zerg production (which btw is why zerg nearly always has more workers and can instantly remax even into the late game) And they have an energy based heal which also works on buildings combining the best of both shield batteries and repair together. No other unit for another race is as pivotal as queens are for zerg. If queen's didn't exist every single pro zerg player including serral would be dead, game over within 5 minutes
@@TheMHB199"Queens are defensive powerhouses early to mid game" - agreed, said the same thing. However, lings, marines and oracles are amazing in early, mid and late game, both defensively and offensively. "No queens = no creep and no injects" - true. I disagree that it makes them good _units_ though. It's more like "what makes them good buildings" or something. I don't think economical abilities (building, mining, creep...) should be considered for this list. It muddies the waters. It's like making a fruit tier list based on how sweet each fruit is, but then also randomly adding a few vegetables and saying "they're S-tier because they're healthy. If you never eat vegetables, you'll probably have really bad health". All other units on the list are ranked on their usefulness in battle. Workers and queens have both some utility in battle (scouting, fighting, healing, tanking) and economic utility. So I think the list would be more consistent and useful if it focused on only 1 set of criteria instead of 2. Queens are especially fucky because they have both important fighting utility AND economic utility, whereas the fighting utility of workers is low and thus easy to overlook.
@kathorsees hmm. I think you're changing the goalposts as per your own criteria, but clearly the eco aspect and the general role the unit has is being taken into account which I also agree with. Otherwise mules would not be S tier, and neither would any workers, orbital, Oracle even which is a support unit and past the early game the main use is revelation. IF we were only going by fighting ability then yeah queen's wouldn't be S tier but I still think they'd be fairly high such as A tier since they are literally what bring the defence together in the early game and into the midgame. Then again, if we were going by that criteria, the entire list would be different.
@@TheMHB199 Agreed, I put them in A tier in my original comment as well. About moving goalposts - "fighting utility" is not a great term; I do include scouting into it, because revelation, scan etc. are definitely a huge part of engagements; it can literally decide who wins or loses a particular battle. I can't find the right word for it though, so went with "fighting utility". The whole list would look different - agreed, I didn't like the inclusion of workers in the first place. But it's all just for fun anyway. Thanks for having a civilized discussion on the internet with me, kind sir!
I'm going to only go marine, medivac, ghost making sure I always have mules dropping from now on. You have convinced me there is no other method of playing terran.
same for many zerg units: "you dont wanna make them but you will have to".. overall terrans seems to be the only ones with the luxury of picking their army comp, the others have to adapt instead
I think u hit the nail on the head with this one EXEPT I think nydus should be A tier. I think any build can incorporate a nydus. The ability to INSTANTLY teleport ur units has so many more uses than just putting a nydus in ur opponents main. Not a necessary building but has so much potential
Getting back into SC2 after playing some Stormgate and I just... miss the polish and feel of it. FEels like a new game tbh since I stopped around 2016 or something. Checking tier list stuff like this just to get a feel for what the current state of units these days. Kinda sad that for the Adept, I distinctly remember the initial design goal for it was as a staple Protoss unit that would be relevant at all stages. But now it just ended up as a situational/harassment unit. The Cyclone and the Disruptor are hilarious ... it still feels like they're old/legacy units like Goliaths and Reavers but for some reason, they just couldn't bring themselves to just straight up port old tried and true units... they had to make their own spin on it... and it just never worked out, even to this day. Also, just happy to see the Hydra and the Immortal in their rightful place. Man I remember when they were situational units, and it was an absolute travesty.
DT in B is criminal. Should be A. It can win you games from the start and has a huge come back potential all game long, as you can snipe detection if you are under attack, not to mention the run-bys which are relevant until the end of the game
Great tier list. I am wrong because I think the mothership and tempest should be switched with observer and phoenix. Overlord and overseer were weird, kinda feel like they shouldn't be on a list at all tbf, corrupter maybe bumped to A - simply because the fulfill the necessary role
Besides the great updates (since Blizzard went crazy and expectedly made patches and meta changes, just like Overwatch, where I spend most of my free gaming time).... I remember the Void Rays being a pestering cheese, but also a solid mid late game. Now all has changed. And that is one unit from one race! Thanks, Winters. We can now get in a full video to plan our new build orders and compositions.
Corruptors should have the Brood Queen's ability (energy based) to kill ground units like in BW or co-op (Stukov). And this is especially for team games, sc isn't only 1v1 pro lvl.
Engagment comment. ps. Love you and your exceedingly engaging content. Sincerly, you are a real inspiration. I hope you continue to make SC2 content for many years to come :) x
Broodlords shouldn't have so many direct counters. I love the unit concept, but it's almost completely useless in most cases because it just gets killed by everything. It needs to have a buff that doesn't allow ghosts to kill them as terran already have thors and vikings. Give them an immortal type shield where they cannot take more than about 50 damage from a single source.
Pretty much agree with everything except banshee. It should be B tier. Like ravens, a tech lab on your starport is a commitment since it slows down medivac production. It also cost a lot of gas, esp if you get cloak and hyper flight. Which makes the follow up weaker, because of the gas and starport time. And they usually don't do heavy amounts of damage. They can be good but I think B. Thanks for the content!
I disagree that the baneling is not S tier. Take away the baneling from zerg and most Terrans will be able to roll over Serral himself. Banelings are the essential delay mechanic that Zerg needs to hit the end game. Without them they are dead meat to Terran. Edit : Also, I am terribly dissapointed there is no Creep Tumor on this tier list, you know the ACTUAL best unit in the game because its free and ridiculous .
What a stupid fucking thing to say.. so you’re telling me Terran is sooo broken that it would steamroll the best player in the word if it wasn’t for a single unit..?? That literally means Terran is too strong… your brain is fucking dense
I am on the fence. The issue is that the baneling is neccessary sometimes, but roaches and queens can do the same thing. Honestly it is more just a showcase of how Zerg gets nerfed consistently because they have the best *overall* pro's and Protoss get's ignored cos outside maxpax they get dogged on a lot.
@@jamesharrison3149 Well, the problem with zerg is the Creep Tumors actually. Its so unfair that Zerg has this much strategical and informational advantage over the other races . The Baneling is strong, but its still fine, its the overwhelming vision that makes Zerg OP.
@@liamlilabello6306 The 550 mineral building that can scan at an opportunity cost of 300 minerals? Scans are good but lets not pretend the 2 are comparable. One is expensive and good while the other is free, self replicating and broken.
I would love to see a Zerg rework where they don't allow so many queens. Maybe 1 per hatchery, 2 for lair and 3 for hive, so an extra queen supply essentially. Then nerf some counters a bit, like Ghost snipe can't snipe burrowed units and Zerg units can break snipe targeting by burrowing. This would make Ultras a Lurkers way better. I also wanna do something to the corrupter, maybe give it a tackle ability to be able to catch up with any unit. Spines and Spores might also need to be a bit cheaper to defend against air early, or we allow Corrupters on Lair. We'd see a lot less creep spread this way as well so we're nerfing Zerg anti air, transfuse and map vision heavy with that first one. I wonder how pros would play Zerg this way.
Minor quibble, but I think if Brenda has her own tier under the logic of zerg just not working without queens, the workers should be in the same tier for the same reason. After all, I suspect if two zerg GMs went at it, one banned from queens and the other from drones, the one _without_ queens might just have a bit of an advantage. #AllDronesAreQueens #ProbeYourHeart(YouKnowItToBeTrue) #You'reTerranMeApartBrenda
Well, this tier list means we should buff spines& voids. Deleting root time for spine & 7s faster build and 50 less mineral cost should work for the voidray.
First. But I retired lol. I just can't get good at this game no matter how many guides and strategies I try. So i retired. Keep up the good work though
Just do random tier lists. Rusty once made a "ranking Elden Ring Bosses in how good they are in chess" tier list, so I guess we all here just want you to speak about something, no matter what
corrupters should be c tier but mostly because zerg air upgrades are incredibly expensive/clunky so the corrupters will almost always be forced to fight down on upgrades and if you are building corrupters the other air units you might want to build to use those upgrades are being built into an enemy comp that is very good at killing them.
The benefit of Corruptors is that they are a quick anti-air choice. You can respond to a few BCs with a dozen Corruptors all at once, then morph Brood Lords when the game becomes less about air superiority. I don’t think they are nearly that bad, but as you said, they usually have worse upgrades and can often be useless supply. Zerg anti-air options just aren’t that great without them.
Reapers need some kind of upgrade mechanic to make them viable in the mid- and late-game. Almost every Terran will build one or two in the first few minutes, and then never again. It's ridiculously niche, even moreso than Adepts. Maybe make them benefit from Stimpack and Combat Shields?
Ghosts need a slight nerf imo. Its the best unit in the game overall, and can shut down literally every single build if used correctly. It's relatively cheap too. It's even buildable fairly quick too, not needing multiple extra tech buildings. It's the sole reason I play as terran, and probably the only reason I win any games
I'm a strong proponent of capping the total ghost count at 8 or so. Without any ghosts Terran just doesn't have an answer to enemy spellcasters. A handful of ghosts balances it out and prevents perpetual storm/abducts from grinding down your army. However, the *necessity* of a few ghosts does not balance out the *overpowered* scaling of double-digit ghosts. At that point, they can snipe entire retreating armies, negate all spellcasters permanently, and are solid units just on A-move alone. With a cap on ghost count, Terrans can keep their lategame intact without countering everything everywhere (plus will have to fill in with bio/mech/air, actually ration ghost energy, use them as support like Byun sometimes does) The final benefit is that's more lore-compliant too! Humans with the potential to be ghosts are one in 100,000 - it doesn't matter how rich your commander is there aren't enough total ghosts to make up a whole army on their own!
Spoken as someone who doesn't understand the game. Ghosts are as strong as they are because they need to be. Terran late game is reliant on ghosts and if you don't make ghosts you get crushed. Ideally yes I agree I'd rather some of the power of the ghost was split into another unit but then the question is which unit, how, what changes do you make.
@@TheMHB199 Why is it a terrible idea? It addresses the problem in your comment, where some ghosts are needed for Terran lategame, while also addressing the compounding power of double digit ghosts. If you can think of a better solution I'd love to hear it, honestly
@WinterStarcraft how is the Hatchery not included given more of them make more larva, which allows you to make more units (even more if you inject)? seems like as a Zerg player you always want more of them...
I would personally change a number of placements, though not all that significantly. If you look at a unit by itself, I think the list is mostly valid. But I think it'd make more sense to be a bit more analytical with some of them. For example, the spore crawler, cannon, and missile turret. I would change them all a little bit. Missile turret I'd move down to A- because yes, it's a solid static defense but it's also probably the least built generally. Given that it only hits air, the main use of it would be anti-harass/drop. But if it hits late game where often air becomes a lot more relevant, or the Terran is against certain things like say Swarm Hosts, the missile turrets especially with autotracking become way stronger. Cannons I'd move up to A tier, because going off memory most Protoss players when taking a base more towards the mid game will drop a number of cannons. Plus shield batteries tend to be a staple part of the defense, making them quite a bit more annoying to kill. On top of that, even if rarely seen in pro play they still are a core cheese tool that only the spine crawler matches, and it's imo way worse of a cheese option. Spore crawler I feel can also go to A since something super undervalued I feel is the fact they can move. You don't need to send anti-air across the map for a liberator that is barely shutting down part of a mineral line, you can move the spore a few steps which neither Terran or Protoss can do. Also being able to box in damaged air units by moving them closer to where they're AFK on low HP, rather than leaving them a possible way out is insanely good. I've seen banshees killed due to I guess "zoning out" the banshee.
Just nerf Terran already, I bet the win % still stays positive. The top Terran players have significantly better unit control. It must be something you don't focus on to the same degree playing Zerg or Protoss
Im like a single second into this video and have the same issue I have with pretty much every SC tier list. Yes the workers are all necessary, but the Probe can win games at the highest level single handily it really should be distinguished above the rest.
Kind of shitty how close Zerglins make it to not being S tier -No prerequisite to build pool -Makes 2 fast units for easy scouting -Needed for banes -Hive tech additional buff which is the strongest upgrade in the entire game bar none -Every other thing which makes it the t1 unit, mineral only disposable frontline you'll always need in basically all builds ever And it still almost doesn't make it That's both how strong Zerg's intrinsic units are such as the earliest spellcaster in the game (and most universal lategame casters), and how ass they are elsewise being completely gunned down every single time without these mechanics
the Orbital Command is the most OP thing of the game. Its bizarre. The Scan should be more expensive to cast. And maybe ... loose its ability to fly after morphed.
I feel your ranking is inconsistent. Bashees are A because they are the best at what they do. But Spines and spores are low because people don't want to make them, despite being the best (only) option.
It's part of a humorous greeting/intro routine he came up with about a year ago. He started at 1k likes and increases the amount by +1 each new video. So it's not the same as the number of videos he's released, bc he's been making videos for like a decade by now.
@@TritonTv69420 Never noticed that. Perhaps, Winter just messed up the upload order once or twice, or you didn't watch the videos in order? I mean, I've been watching Winter since before this gimmick (no disrespect mr. Winterino, I actually still like it). I was there the first time he did it, and I was watching pretty much every day back then. Skip back about a year and see for yourself if you'd like!
this list is the truth. its honestly sad that the entire zerg balance revolves around the queen. at this point just buff the queen to turn into a stationary spore or spine...why even have the spore or spine if their that shit? even harass units like reaper or adept are balanced around that queen unit...
The Zerg race is “balanced around the queen” bc queens are so stupidly OP. If you ave ANY race a unit that costs minerals only, doubles worker production rate while countering all harass AND acting as anti air they’d build 10 of them too. It’s so stupidly broken and why zergs win everything. Dull AF game
there literally is no reason why Carriers are as bad as they are other than the people at Blizzard being morons who apparently don't actually play or watch the game they created
I absolutely think that you overrate the carrier. I think the carrier is one of the worst units in the game. It is a late Game unit which aspecially in the late Game drains all your bank account. Should be B or C
Tournament results also confirm the ratings. Terran and zerg winning because they spam their broken tier 1 units. Protoss does not have such a unit, they always need to have a combination of 4 or more units to get the job done.
@naibresoulew1 protoss are winning almost 50% of games vs terran and 55% vs zerg at pro level. So you're just wrong. If you think that tournament wins are because of who spams tier 1s the best...wow I'm not sure how you'd get to that.
Not sure i agree with the tiers begin done like that if nothing goes into C tier lol. I'd have done an S+ tier then probably, with the ghost in it and perhaps the viper. Then you could push the HT into S tier along with the tempest. Or put them up there with brenda. Banshee A tier? It's pretty situational, even though it is used for quite long times with good effect. It can't even attack air, so as soon as you get anything flying, it's just done. Disagreeing on the Archon, they're amazing vs. air clumps but otherwise rather meh and it's reflected in how often they're built. Vs. T they're just costing the ghosts some energy, vs. Z they're the corruptor defense and good vs. zerglings, but that's about it; so should be situational. Same for carrier. Carrier is better than tempests in fullout-battles but just worse in poking engagements which is why quite often you see protoss build a max of 2-3 carriers in their armies, quite a few tempests and the rest is just ground. That'll probably lose in a direct fight, but it's so insanely good with oracle vision and poking zerg armies to death. Corruptor should be situational as well. It does very well what it's built for and without archons, protoss would probably lose every air fight vs. corruptors (unlike T ofc). I'd still put lurkers into A tier, but not necessarily at pro level tbf. Cannons at A- is already pretty generous. Cannons can do it all, but they're worse at everything they do than the other turrets. Missile turrets have much higher dps and a range upgrade, spores can move. So B tier is the best it can hope for. So i'd swap the spore and cannon every day, even though the spore dps is somewhat disappointing time and time again except vs. mutas (chef's kiss). MULEs cannot build. They cannot attack. They have timed life. Even though they cost only energy, imo that makes them A tier. Nah, observer is clearly A tier. Obs can decide games (maxpax has shown that), they're a constant pain in the ass for the opponent and they're inexpensive, easymode detection that build very quickly and cheaply. Observer B tier and overlord is A? What? Overlords are slow AF and do almost nothing but early (!) scouting :D Overseer has super nice abilities that more or less come for free with scouting and detection. Roach should be B tier imo, the unit itself is only useable because of its cost. Raven A- is pretty accurate after the latest nerfs imo. With the old turret and the old anti-armour missile it's definitely A tier though. Mines B tier? Absolutely not, especially not if roaches are in A tier lol. They're still the primary choice for terrans, just not as dominantly. Tempests A- is hurting. Tempests are the sole reason why properly played protoss wins every single lategame vs. zerg. They're not quite as good vs. terran because terran has thors and vikings have an easier time jumping on tempests bc of their range and bc ghosts can counter HT, but they're still very solid with tectonic destabilizers. Tempests are at least very high A or even low S tier. Thors in pro play might be A-, thors in any other tier are S. You cannot go wrong on building them and they have almost no counters. Neural parasite only works with certain terrains and no tanks, tempests do not really work at all because thors outrange them so badly. Even immortals are not as good vs. thors, as cost for cost, they'll just lose. Zerglings in S is fine imo, they're many units, which in itself is a big plus, they can scout, insanely fast, burrow, super high dps with adrenal glands and especially in lategame scenarios vs. both T and P you can much better run squads of zerglings by enemy bases and deal chip damage with the opponent having a hard time defending that if combined with ultras than the other races can. Zealots are not even close and drops are too valuable and can be countered by anti-air alone.
Thanks, I never was at pro level and never will, this makes some things clear. I notice the highest ranked units in Zerg race are spellcasters, with the most indispensable one being the Queen. It makes even more clearer why I stopped liking to play Zerg in SC2 compared to SC1, since it relies so heavily on a "hero unit" that's responsible for pretty much everything and that you have to babysit unless you want to die early. An unit for which you need to constantly do different choices to use it at best, because it's so polyvalent and essential. Sure makes for interesting use at high level but at low level it's hard... Probably explains also why pro-Zergs seem to have a higher APM (besides spam-clicking) I simply don't like these "specllcaster oriented" mechanics, I still like Zerg in general, but now I prefer to watch ppl play it rather than do it myself :D Maybe I should try the SC2 evolution mod and play SC1 Zerg against other races :D
Spellcaster dominate the late game because of the force multiplier abilities have rather than just straight up fighting. You may not like it but it's far more interesting and skillful to have spellcasters than not. Without spellcasters it just comes down to simple a moves.
@JamesBeignet brother me and you both lol. I love watching the top level games but I barely can hit 100 apm. Usually around 80. It's incredible what these top players can do. I canonly dream lol. I play a lot of rts and I wish It was something I started sooner and dedicated more of myself to. But alas here we are.
If we put Thors and especially BCs in B tier, bcos T has better options and if you scout them you can pre-counter them, then why Carriers are A tier? Even the same reasoning was given, just the outcome is the opposite. I think the same goes for Spores. Carriers are weak in low numbers and without upgrades too, they have no other utility like BCs. Was that to silence all the Bronzes crying ''carriers op"? Btw, the fact that the Protoss, despite being kinda supposed to have the strongest units is overshadowed massively by Terran units tells a lot about the state of balance. Also - Stalkers A tier? I see your reasoning, but bcos P is forced to used them everywhere, doesnt mean they are good. Heck, cost effectiveness-wise, they are borderline B/C tier.
