I tried The Last of Us: Part 2 again... 

Custom difficulty and the cheats make this game so much fun its great coming up with little challenges.

@@geordiejones5618 can you give an example?

Zero UI??

I feel like the game is really made to be played on grounded. The whole game should be extremely difficult and have you feeling like you’ll run out of supplies. It’s such an immersive experience that way

@@artursaizikovics3433 I use custom difficulties so that I can have little resources as possible without having harder AI, so now I’m immersed in this world. The accessibility in this game is great. You can also turn up the aim assist and turn off the UI and it’s like watching a movie.

That and the level design. Absolutely incredible

Yup. Not even a debate. The production of the game is the best we’ve ever seen in a linear story driven game. I can’t say of all time because RDR2 was next level in Open world too.

Still can believe a base PS4 can run this game.

@@Jose-se9pu my ps4 slim runs this game amazingly well. imagine a naughty dog game built for the ps5 in 2-3 years, gonna be insane

@@TheMrGiannisgr Yeah Last of us 2 had better graphics but Rdr2 had so much more to deal with and still made graphics that hold up next to it.

Wasn’t really her parent

@@smoontrain9804 yes he was

@@smoontrain9804 so just a question if a kid was adopted by someone and they loved and cared for them for years and raised them are they not the kids parent? Because there’s no difference here Ellie loved Joel as a father and Joel loved her as his daughter someone doesn’t need to be blood related to be a parent to someone

@@smoontrain9804 bruh, way to be a downer lmao

It was actually day 2, just to remember.

I just finished it honestly. I loved this experience, but geez, I'm spent.

Me too. Which is why I loved it. The only game that has ever made me actually feel something. God of war was also great. but compared to any other game TLOU 1/2 actually feels like a real story and incredibly emotionally thought through.

15 hours of fight to the death hype then they forgive each other by the power of friendship and flashback 🤢

@@hamndv you haven't played the game, that much is obvious. You also haven't played the first game either, as it described perfectly why tlou2 ends the way it does. Joel talks about it time and time again by the end of TLOU1.

@@simonfarre4907 the game was free on PS+ got the platinum fast then uninstalled just didn't like the story nor the ending that's all

Well I think the argument is that what Joel did wasn’t for survival it wasn’t them vs us and a fight. It was someone who slaughtered abbys father in basically cold blood along with everyone else there. You’re right revenge could trigger from any of these random npcs you fight and kill but Joel’s deed was so horrible to an entire group that it was deserving of revenge. The world of the last of us is very harsh and unforgiving and I feel Joel living happily ever after, after what he did would have spit in the face of that constant.

@@kirkvanallen5202 I concur, Joel’s the reason there’s (potentially) no cure for the viral outbreak and for what could’ve been the re-establishing of human society

That's the beauty of TLOU story line. It isn't a happy ending video game it isn't for the kind hearted. The reality is the world is a cold stone crappy survival of the fittest. If you don't like that then you this franchise isn't for you. Try Day's Gone. They do have a happy ending.

@@kirkvanallen5202 yes its true that Joel did some horrible things, especially from a moral standpoint. However, this is a post apocalyptic world, a world where bandits kill people for a couple scraps of food and clothes. Morality is rarely a thought when so many follow their basic human instincts which are not satisfied. For the people that do, they want revenge on those that killed their loved ones. However there are also some that simply don't wanna fight anymore. For example, You don't see Lev actively showing hatred towards the WLF for killing his sister. He also stopped Abby from killing Dina. He even tried (and failed) to convince his mother. He simply wanted the fighting to end. With all this in mind, is it really that unbelievable for a person like Joel to live and die a peaceful life, despite all he has done? I want to mention that i have no problem with Joel dying. I just feel that revenge shouldn't have been the main topic for a story based in a post apocalyptic world, especially when so many are willing to kill on an everyday basis for basic resources.

@@javierlandaverde4108 do you think I'm someone that thinks Joel dying immediately makes the game bad? I wasn't expecting a happy ending with no consequences. I simply wanted a well written dark story, and IMO this game fails catastrophically in both its objectives and methodology.

no i feel like the atmosphere post joel's death is necessary and looms large over the whole story.

The thing with "death of the mentor" is that it always gives the protagonist, the hero going on the hero's journey, a reason to fight. It gives them a goal of someone to repay the favor to. For most of the game, you don't even play as the "hero" and instead play as the "villain" while the game tries to make you think that the villain is the good guy and that the hero is the bad guy. Thus, it makes you feel like absolute crap for playing it.

He died like shit. I didn't like that. I was connected to him after the start of TLoU. And Abby was forced to me and I didn't like it, and then they gave me Ellie to take revenge but they didn't let me choose to kill Abby, so no revenge anyways.

Yes but having Joel die because Ellie was hellbent in revenge would have been more gut wrenching, because the magnitude would have finally impacted Ellie. Imagine Ellie saying “no no no” if he got shot and died on the hunt for abby. Joel’s death was very underwhelming.

Ellie isn't a hero. This isn't your typical main protagonist always wins hero story. The entire point of the first game, the reason everyone loved it, Joel and ellies dynamic. Taking that away destroys the franchise. No one gives a fuck to play a tlou3 now. They ruined it.

Another probably is that everybody dies Ellie lost Joel who is her father figure not knowing it but Joel does jesse who didn’t make it through one game and for Abby, all her friends are dead Alongside with her dad and if you didn’t figure it out this game is about revenge and hate

That's not even mentioning the fact that Neil druckmann fired anyone who disagreed with what he was doing with the story

Good point. Thank you for raising.

@@mariobadia4553 lol you got proof for that?

I have to be honest here, I always hated this topic. People always pick and choose when it’s relevant. What about Free to Play games? Those are MASSIVE and are the biggest games on the market. Fortnite, Apex Legends, Genshin Impact and Call of Duty:Warzone are obvious examples. If we really care about crunch then these games shouldn’t exist in this format because they’re money pits and incentivize bad business practices overall. And there’s more on the way from every major publisher and studio.

When Free to Play games are lackluster even for a season they are forgotten. How many battle passes are just thrown away by the public because the skins in it were ‘meh’. All that time and effort wasted and more importantly disrespected. “Stop being lazy these skins suck! I won’t support these guys if they aren’t even going to try”. This is how a lot of people think. Very hypocritical.

“I dont know if I can forgive you…but I’d like to try” Absolutely beautiful moment

@@Timeothy beautiful and tragic. Gives a whole new layer to Ellie’s motivation

Exactly. The first game has its traumatic moments, and fantastic emotional impact, but Part II just took things to a whole other level. When Luke mentions how it’s hard for him to come back to playing Part II, I am exactly the same. Not that it’s a bad game, far from it, but it’s such an emotional jarring experience that it is so hard to put myself through more than once. The first game, I can play any day of the week, but the second is just way too much for me emotionally to do it more than once.

The first game is way more simple and linear in its narrative, which is not a bad thing, but I really enjoyed how layered the story of the second game was.

@@LiTTleGaBi21 now you need to ask yourself how well it pulled it off.

I 100% agree, Ellie didn't even feel like Ellie anymore, she became so unlikeable in TLOU2

@@JustANyanCat did you like Abby though? That’s all they care about.

Fr. My problem is that they made Abby feel like she was the true protagonist waiting her turn to show up instead of just giving her some insight for her development. Total crap

But the story for Part 2 worked, so what in the world are you talking about?

To be honest, he carried. Neil's want to make this political really hurt the story

@@krasmasov6852 It didn't work. The game tried at every point to force you to like Abby. The first game let you choose how you feel about Joel, something the sequel should've known to do. What's worse is if you don't like Abby your labeled a tranaphobe. The community is shit and Neil is shit

@@arsonistchoir2187 What was political about Part 2?

@@krasmasov6852 Lev and Abby. They both kill but the game treats it as justified when Joel and Ellie did the same but their bad for it. Feels like the game is saying it's OK to kill if your trans

No one asked.

Well, no one's arguing that this game doesn't appeal to simpletons such as yourself.

Bad opinion alert.

I played it again awhile back, up to the section after Abby rescues Lev. And I can’t get past the gripes I have to fully appreciate the good because the things that I don’t like are tied to major components of the game; characters, the structure, and other decisions. I’ll say that Tlou2 absolutely has some great gameplay and in-game scripted moments.

I cant finish it a second time, i think it’s a good game but it’s also boring at times. With Ellie you just spend so much time going from house to house, room to room etc without actually getting anywhere it feels like and it’s got no interesting dialogue or backstories to help make it feel less boring and then it’s the same with Abby.

There's no need to insult farts like that.

not too sure she’d be the usual, bubbly 3@83 that we saw in tlou1 after she quite literally witnesses the murder and torture of her father and gains ptsd from it, if her personality was any different it would be bad and inconsistent writing

That seems very realistic. She was still fighting her demons. She had PTSD over what had happened. She didn’t want to go find and kill Abby she had to, she was compelled to internally. It wasn’t until the end after seeing what happened to Abby and lev and realizing how far she has come and how lost she was. Why do people with successful and fulfilling lives ever make the wrong decisions? Life isn’t as simple as life’s good never do anything to jeopardize that it’s more along the lines of what is worth jeopardizing my life? What can compel me to do so? What is worth it? I feel if you’re still compelled by vengeance over your father being brutally murdered in front of you then that’s something you’re willing to give up happiness for. I don’t understand why people started to dislike ellie by the end. I understood why she was doing what she did and it’s times was rooting for her and at others wishing she would stop but knowing that it was an unrealistic thing to expect. Her self destructive nature triggered by what happened to Joel is one of the most human things that can happen to someone especially considering they are already apart of a world where murder and fighting for your life is a given.

I completely disagree. Ellie was obviously still tortured by PTSD, she couldn't sleep etc. I think it's easy for us to say what "the right choice" is from afar but imagine actually living through this. She believed killing Abby would take that burden of her shoulders.

I agree with you. I think they justify that in the story but doesn't mean I have to like it or call it good. It's just not a story I wanted to see.

@@mattevans1988 and that’s the type of honest response I like to see from people disagreeing with me. First game is Bittersweet with sweet moments and the second game is bitter with bittersweet moments, understandable that you’d prefer a more positive story.

I agree. Joel's decision in the first game was not heroic, but it was very human. If the world has to burn for me to save a loved one, the world is gonna burn. The game constantly tries to say Joel was wrong in the part one, but I don't agree with that.

@@mauricehopes9105 "The game constantly tries to say Joel was wrong in the part one," LOL Of course it does... that's why the most beautiful statement in the game is: "I would do it again" aka I love you...

I agree that I would likely act in my own interest in that type of scenario. It's not "logical", but the perspective that Joel had is completely understandable. However... there are other perspectives. Just because *Joel* did what he had to, that doesn't mean no one else did the same. Abby killed him because from her perspective, that was what she had to do. Neither Joel nor Abby considered the consequences of their actions and were both selfish in their ways. I can still empathize with that because if someone I loved (a partner, parent, child, sibling, etc.) was killed or was in danger, I would absolutely prioritize them over anything else. It would completely overcome my thoughts and I could see myself acting similarly if I were in their situations. I will never understand why people say that Joel was in the right as if there are no other perspectives to consider. Perhaps people view their own perspective as absolute and infallible, so they insert that logic into any protagonist of a story. Again, I'm not saying Joel was *evil,* I'm saying that his perspective is not unique. I can empathize with his rationale - *his perspective* - as well as that of Ellie, Abby, Lev, Yara, Dina, Tommy, Owen, Mel, Jesse, Nora, Manny, Sam, Henry, Bill, Tess, Marlene, Riley, and basically everyone else in these games. Except for David. He was a rapist/pedophile. Basically the only character where there's no room for empathy.

I don't think the main issue is that you're not able to empathize with Abby. I think the game could have worked even if some players failed to empathize with Abby, IF there was sensible writing. The following was my personal takeaway, but I think the idea would also apply to players who didn't relate to Abby. I have no problem with the themes being explored, I have no problem with trying to show nuance, but the fact that Ellie never found out WHY Abby took "revenge" is baffling. Ellie lost everything, and though we are meant to believe she had growth, it seems almost impossible that a person would have this growth without reason to reflect or empathise. Showing past conversations with Joel is all well and good as a way to draw parallels, but they can hardly be effective if Ellie doesn't know the stakes. I find it really hard to believe that Ellie's beliefs/motives would change for arbitrary empathy, "oh Joel must have done something pretty bad, that's the only reason why somebody would want to kill him". If Ellie's revelation could have been this simplistic and only brought about by her own actions (and not a combination of reflection and empathising) then it would have happened maybe an hour into her revenge quest, when she's killing her 5th 'victim'. So even if you hate Abby, with decent writing you would empathize with Ellie, and actually understand why SHE would be willing to forgive. Oh well.

You can still align with Joel and also empathize with Abby. They’re not mutually exclusive. I believe that’s what the point of the game is. To not look at it black and white and see the grey that is you can see why both have their reasons doing what they did and going through the aftermath and recourse of those decisions. Abby realizing by the end that her revenge brought her no peace, because after defending Lev she started to see why he did what he did, but can still hate him for what he did. It’s more complex than “they’re trying to make Joel out to be the bad guy”

I played the 1st game and the DLC. Really enjoyed it. Didn't buy the game at launch and instead was waiting for PS5 release. Def made the difference and the game was enjoyable. Might not be for everyone. More for a very mature audience. This game also is not recommended to play it in one play through or rushed. Recommend playing it through small takes to analyze the story and information for each chapter. Take your time to explore the world and land and understand the world of TLOU is very bleak, grim and dark. You also begin to slowly understand low key this game brings up a lot of phycological problems we have not seen games aiming for. Stuff such as PTSD to schizophrenia, to extreme depression, bi-polar and many more stuff. Beautiful game that showcases the nastiness of humans. Game really pulled through.

@@javierlandaverde4108 all of those things have been talked about and touched on in many diffent horror games in the past.. yall just didn't play them 😒🙄

@@Glane6339 I meant to say survival game genre. Horror does bring in a lot of those topics such as Evil Within and others. Regardless though Naughty Dog does bring good detail of mental issues in a post apocalyptic world.

The gameplay, graphics, animation, and voice acting are amazing in this game and I do like the story except for what they do with Joel and for the Abby parts. They should NOT have killed off Joel so fast. They should of at least let us actually play as him for at least 1-2 levels. Let him stay alive for at least an extra hour or 2. Having him be killed off in the first 30-40 min sucks. We finally get the last of us 2 and everyone was looking forward to playing as Joel and seeing what they do with him and we don’t even get to play as him once?! He just immediately dies like WTF. I also HATE ABBY. They should of cut her parts out except for the part in the beginning of the game, the part with her dad and the part near the end of the game when she goes after Ellie and fights her. Having the entire second half of the game force you to play as her ruins the game tbh.

@@darkhaven9119 they never said you would play as Joel in the sequel, you set yourself up for disappointment from the start if you were expecting a Joel and Ellie fun adventure.

Absolutely. So many revolutionary gameplay mechanics in this game that aren't talked about enough.

This game has so many small details... Naughty Dog is amazing with detail

​@@ResoluteDeicide people won't care about a revolutionary game if it's revolutionazing woke politics

hell yeah i honestly kind of got sucked into the hate in the beginning until i played it from start to finish and i have to say i love this game, i realky had a change of heart

I agree. I had to force myself to finish it. I did it mainly to talk to some friends about it. Everything after the farm feels pointless.

ah the game made me feel like shit which is why I liked it so much one of the first games that didn’t give the player what it wanted and challenged us and didn’t give us no “Joel dies sacrificing himself for Ellie” bs the way the story was told is kind how something in real life would play out if someone was telling you a story, not completely climatic and a bittersweet ending and not knowing what to expect in the middle of it. I managed to keep myself safe from spoilers besides Joel’s death and I decided to buy and play the game and at first I was like “hell nah” but then I forced myself to face it and I liked that they chose to tell something unique and ambitious and I respected it and I actually found myself looking past my hate for Abby and the plot holes and enjoying the game and it’s message

@@localwarlord wow, you must have a really boring mindset then!

Yeah it was a very unique choice I wasn’t a big fan of it

@@mauricehopes9105 yeah she went all that way yet didn’t kill Abby again. That part was fun af though.

This game made me feel like the first one was good dream.

Same

Play it again.

Maybe you are just dumb

A gripping depressing and nihilistic game would be Kane e Lynch 2: Dog Days, and that game only last 5 hours!

I agree with all your points. By the theater I was still 1000% on Ellie's side. And by the final battle I just was exhausted and didn't care anymore. Playing this game is a miserable experience and I hate it.

@@mauricehopes9105 that's exactly what happens when writers try to be deep and philosophical instead of trying to make a beautiful well crafted story A massive L for Neil Druckmann, really lost respect as a writer

@@xoxoxoxo8281 Been philosophical and meta is fine as long as you actually know exactly what are talking about and know how to deliver it properly in an engaging way. David Cage is a great example with Detroit: Become Human. He is basically the Charlie Kauffman of writing games. Neil Druckmann very simply isn't and never will be that kind of writer.

@@taliamason7986 i know im like 11 months late to this convo, but like idk why people forget that Neil Druckmann also wrote the first game. Like yeah i can understand if people hate on him for Part 2, I get it. And I respect people's opinions but like idk why people call him a shitty writer now that Part II is out even though like i said, he wrote the first game, and also wrote some of Uncharted 4. (I know its not all of it).

Lool tlou 2 supportes hundreds of agendas , that why they give it 1000/10 and called it : MASTERPIECE

And anyone who disagrees is a "bigot."

How many of those are there?

That's misleading. It's a very bad tldr for what actually happens

@@conor6436 Quite a few. Look up the tropes Vengeance Feels Empty, Easily Forgiven, and If You Kill Him, You Will Be Just Like Him.

@@stam7250 But it's literally what happens? You can fluff it up with flashbacks and what not but Ellie killed a fuck ton of people to get to Abbey, just to not kill her? It's just a meta narrative dissonance that ND clearly didn't think about themselves or didnt respect the player enough to think they would notice.

@@stam7250 Its literally the most predictable, boring and generic revenge story known to man. I enjoyed everything except the story, its just so terribly unoriginal and boring.

And there’s still a lesson to be learned with that too. Ellie was numb to Abbys experience too.

@@youngnat Ellie was kinda forced to see Joel being killed, which is more messes up by my standard, having someone they know Joel cares for watch him get beated to death, would make them numb to any later reasoning.

@@chriswihulu I know just like how we were forced to watch it because I we wanted to play the game. I’m trying to say they did everything on purpose and it’s just not for everyone.

@@youngnat i was talking more about the character motivation, nothing that Abby did would make Ellie feel sorry for her, when she was forced to watch what happened to Joel. If they had pulled them apart saying she didn't need to see this, or if Abby had shown even the slightest bit of reflection when doing to Ellie, worse than what Joel did to her dad, didn't force her to watch him die. My basis for whether a character can be seen as redeemable or not, isn't rooted in my own beliefs, but that of the characters reacting to the first characters actions, which is the most precise context you can find.

@@chriswihulu Joel killed an innocent man, Abby was killing a bad guy. Joel did worse than what he got. Abby showed reflection after the fact, which makes sense, a blind rage that Ellie can relate to. Abby still had to see her father dead on the floor, also Ellie was gonna kill everyone in that room ruining her revenge plan. Why would Abby show any reflection while in the heat of that moment? “Yeah yeah I had to see my father dead on the floor but you don’t have go through that”

I feel exactly the same.

top 3 golf simulator for sure

It’s too damn long. It becomes such a slog.

@@Budd631 If only the story didn't keep hammering the same point about the cycle of vengeance for 20 hours.

@stevebob240 same here. I told my friends it's an amazing game with interesting characters, but a shit convoluted story that tries extremely hard to make you feel bad around each corner. At the end my only motivation was to get the trophy to see how many people completed the game, which was 58%. So 40% just didn't care to finish the game and I can understand why

DO NOT compare these two. TLOU part 2 has a rubbish plot full of ideology. Bojack has fantastic writing

@@mrdee2454 lol, u mad

@@mrdee2454 still crying 2 years later lol

@@alborzajeli768 it’s just garbage point blank period, if you hadn’t figured out that revenge is bad by the fith grade idk what to tell you

@@jsgdhsusx2860 and yet you still cheered when John killed Micah

We're only talking about it because it ruined our favorite studio. We're only talking about it because the best quality graphics and animations ever in a video game were wasted on a throwaway story and terrible game design. 5-7 years of a good studio's energy wasted. I'm not touching anything Druckmann makes

@@PassportGaming this video was not talking about ruining anything, more so him praising it. I heavily disagree with you, but it’s all just opinions in the end nothing to be mad about.

@@PassportGaming The story was the best part. What are you talking about?

@@krasmasov6852 I suggest you watch the video pinned in the comments of my last video. I made it explaining why the game is trash

@@PassportGaming that wasn't even your video talking about why it was bad don't use other people's talking point as a justification to why you think it bad use your own thoughts and reasons. If there the same as other state that that you share another person views.

There’s a difference when a man kills your father, and warriors kill some of your friends. Yes, both are horrible, but she doesn’t know specifically of the Seraphites who killed who. She knows for a fact Joel killed her father. Lev and Yara are people that saved her life, and she doesn’t know exactly if they killed her friends. This is also around the time in the game that Abby is starting to notice that not everything Isaac has been saying is true, and that maybe her people are the bad guys in that situation.

Thanks for putting that into words. I was struggling to identify what was wrong with the story other than it failed because all the emotional impact is at the beginning, when Joel is killed, rather than at the end. The reason Naughty Dog amp up the trauma as the game progresses is that they are trying to outdo Joel's death, but they cannot manage it because we don't feel attached to anyone except Ellie. Abby does not have the emotional depth to compete, and ultimately falls flat.

What if I told you that you aren’t really supposed to sympathize with either Abby or Ellie? This game is a tragedy, a cautionary tale. It shows how much pain and destruction ensues when two people develop unresolvable hatred towards each other and let nothing stand in the way of their revenge. There’s a reason both of them are shown as hollow, empty people at the end of the game, that’s the entire thematic point of the story. Neither character could find forgiveness and it destroyed them both. What makes the story compelling is that both characters have legitimate, justifiable reasons to want revenge on the other. It’s very emotionally difficult and I think that’s what many drove many players away.

@@MrZachtheKingsfan Issac is in the game for like 4 minutes in totally and in one convo that we see she is already ready to betray everything she’s known since she was 13-14? And again Joel saved her life too, you think that she’s loyal considering she’s been carring a hard on for Joel since he killed her dad, but apparently that only goes for 2 who she met and learned about over the course of 3 days. Again lazy writing, maybe she didn’t really care for them and only the members of the firefly group. Never told us, so at that point I’m writing the story for them. And it doesn’t matter the seraphites and wlf are at war, in her mind THEY ALL killed her friends. They make jokes about killing the cultists all the time.

I feel similarly. The game tries really hard to make you feel like both Abby and Ellie are just as bad as each other, but I was completely on Ellie side at all times. Abby is the one who started the whole thing. Ellie is justified in her want for revenge when Abby just sounds like a huge hypocrite through the whole game. Even her revenge plot against Joel isn't justifiable. The fireflies tried to murder Joel and Ellie, he only killed Abby's father as a reaction to them trying to kill them. Abby's faction went out of their way to hurt Joel and Ellie.

@@SheanWalsh46 But I think the way Attack on Titan ended was planned perfectly right from the beginning which is why I probably appreciate it more. Erens character development was insane and with TLOU 2 I feel some of the choices made don't fit the character view and perspectives we were given. They really downgraded tommy from the first game, he was reason Abby knew Joels name. He got shot by Abby losing an eye and is now handicapped.

How interesting, that none of your criticisms of the game are even remotely specific. Take, for example, your claim of "bad pacing". Lemme guess, it would've been easier for your brain if Abbys' section was before Ellies' section, right? And how, exactly, does the story have nothing new to say in an interesting way? Lemme guess. All you see is a "revenge bad" narrative, right?

@@ResoluteDeicide sometimes things just go over peoples heads i think tlou2 had the most effective revenge story out there i mean what other medium can convey that type of emotion when you see joel die thats a character we loved we lived him 7 or so years ago we have thought about him ever since we've replayed the game over and over we love joel and when he dies theres a rush like ive never felt of oh shit i gotta go fuck things up and that lines up with ellies emotions too so the first part of the game feels very synergized and then when it abruptly cuts to abby YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO HATE IT and then as you keep playing you start to realize that theres two sides to every story and ignoring all the social commentary that i thought was great just making you think about shit maybe what i did before was wrong makes this game a very interesting story

@@ResoluteDeicide There's better ways to get your point across than insulting someone and being condescending. Think about it, if you we're the other guy, would you really think "this guy has a point, I'm gonna think about my stance a bit more," or, would you think "This guy's an asshole, why would I listen to them?"

You couldn't be more wrong with that sentence, outright showing the player that their sense of morality objectively *sucks* is the one interesting thing Neil Druckmann has ever done with his writing.

I agree 100%, I found the story quite believable and grounded for the most part in the first half of the game, but as it went on the story felt so forced and coincidental that the story itself become sort of fake in my mind. Like you said, characters started making decisions that just weren't believable given their motivations, their past, and the world around them. Ultimately, when the player doesn't think character's are doing what they would do in the world, you have failed at presenting a story that someone can immerse themselves in. I also agree entirely that the gameplay and visuals were fantastic, and it was fun if you checked out of the story, which in the end, i'd assume most people ended up doing.

"Maybe Joel wasn't such a good guy" Wait, hold on, what? Did you actually PLAY the first game? Because the first game was pretty clear that between Sarah's death and. I think I'll say partway through when he and Ellie meet Tommy in Jackson. Joel is a pretty damned terrible fucking guy. And then there's the hospital at the end, which was also not exactly good guy behavior. What strikes me about TLOU2 is how, in what we see of Joel in the flashbacks and in the opening. He's actually probably a better person than he ever was in the first game except the prologue with Sarah. The character development from Ellie and living in Jackson.

@@scion9588 yeah, I beat the TLOU at least 10 times lol so I think it is safe to say I have played it. I think what I took away from my experience was that Joel became a hardened survivor in a world where he could not trust people and where most things tried to kill him. And living in such a world, I think there were a lot of points where Joel has had to do some bad things in order to live. That being said, despite everything, Joel managed to retain some very admirable qualities like being fiercely loyal (not wanting to leave Tess behind, looking for Ellie in a blizzard while suffering serious injuries, rescuing Ellie, helping Tommy fight off bandits) and exhibiting a remarkable amount of courage. He was also someone who had empathy, when he saw Sam, he immediately stopped fighting his older brother bevause he realized they were just trying to survive to. I don't think Joel was "a terrible fucking guy" nor do I think he was a saint, he was a complicated character who was struggling with processing the loss of his daughter and kept most ppl at arms length. He was pragmatic and prioritized survival, not only for himself, but for those he cared for. Its totally fine if we have different opinions on Joel, I think that is what makes him such an interesting, compelling, and beloved character of the series.

@@scion9588 Given the apocalyptic setting, Joel was a pretty great fucking guy. And everything he did in that hospital was entirely justified. Not sure why people bend over backwards to smear the guy so they can justify Abby's terrible revenge story. If my daddy was a sicko cultist cutting up children like a mad scientist and someone kills him for it, I wouldn't be shedding any tears nevermind going on a violent killing spree for revenge.

I agree. It is a technically beautiful game that I had a miserable time playing.

A friend of mine did the same thing and enjoyed it for the same reason.

@@28marshplan1 Tbf what that sounds like is “Ignore the story in a story-based game and they’ll enjoy it”

I get what you mean "I enjoy my homocide Pyscho-path revenge simulators". It was more fun than the story definitely

ur a cool dude

Why's it so difficult for people to meet a piece of art halfway? We all cry about games being real art but as soon as one actually challenges us we disconnect and ask for more of the same. How did it destroy what you cared about? Joel? You never cared or attempted to care about Ellie?

not hating, but there are A LOT of games that puts you in a pool of emotions better than this one

​@@yigitalpd4939 Completely subjective, but in my case no game has ever matched this level of emotion aswell. Whether you think the game is good or bad, it's an unforgettable experience

Not a lot of games try this hard to make you hate it Movies and shows do this a lot but they are usually contained within an episode or a 2 hours movie not 20hrs of emotional trauma, They asked Neil Druckmann how much trauma and he said "yes" . There are 2 type of interpretations of this story direction. One side hates it periodt and the other is seeing it as artistic and enjoys they were put in a position to hate it. Neither is wrong but both sides are very vocal about letting the other know they are right.

@@kowxley1793 it is a forgettable experience, your literally saying you opinion is everyone's. Do you not watch TV, movies and entertainment which literary survive of tragedies? Every single action movies plot starts with a tragedy revenge story. Bro.. just say your a goddamn casual that hasn't experienced many forms of entertainment. We arnt impressed with this cliche garbage we've seen a million times.

​@@Qrows There's not a single video game that ever dealt with a revenge plot this way. And I've played them all. And no, I don't mean the ending. Bro just like you, I watch tv shows, watch movies and read books (well, do you even read?) You're still here talking about it, so I'm guessing it was unforgettable to you aswell, in another way. Btw I never said my opinion is the same as everyone, idk where you read that.

Its depressing because of the godawful writing

@@mariobadia4553 did I ask

@@alibobmarley750 can't deny facts

@@mariobadia4553 again. Did I ask

​@@mariobadia4553 it's all subjective, don't be a jackass

This is quite exactly my stance on TLOU part II. It is an impressive, immersive mind-boggling experience. That's for sure. Doesn't mean I like every part of the story, or every plot decision, or every character development. They just went too far trying to say "revenge is bad, and Joel wasn't a hero. You'll come around"

Jacksepticeye was such a refreshing playthrough to watch after playing the game. So many others played the game for 10 hours straight and wonder why they were miserable about the game.

My only problem with that is that Abby’s narrative would only go so far before people start guessing that her traumatic background is tied to one of Joel’s many killing sprees. Hell after she killed Joel in the game, I figured it either had to be because of Joel saving Ellie, or something Joel did to them during the first 20 years of the apocalypse. I just feel like doing a solo Abby story first would only take people so far before they immediately realize this is building up to her killing Joel.

100% agree about Abby. Except I would’ve put her betrayal and Joel’s murder at the end of part 2. Part 1 ends with the murder of Abby’s father and part 2 ends with the murder of Ellie’s “father”. But hey, we got what we got 🤷🏻‍♂️ Every beloved franchise is a big disappointment now these days so I guess we just gotta get used to it.

No offense but this is a truly terrible idea in so many ways

@@georgevelis4651 I think they took Jackseticeyes idea about putting Abbys part first but then added unnecessary ideas to it. How do you feel about putting Abbys segment before killing Joel? In part2.

Y

I agree. This game was just a miserable slog. Playing as Ellie is watching someone you know slowly into misery and revenge. pushing everyone they love aside as it slowly destroys them. Not fun. Playing as Abby is annoying and frustrating. She does stuff like sleep with owen despite pushing him away and KNOWING it would hurt him and Mel, or attack Joel despite the fact that she would be dead if Joel didn't save her, or killing members of her own faction with no remorse for a kid she barely knows. that and tons of other stuff just confirms that Abby is a bad person. I cannot feel sympathy for her.

the game does not really force you to like Abby or Ellie for that matter. It just shows you that we as humans, who consider ourselves being on top of the foodchain, are still susceptibe to become completely unreasonable driven by our animalistic instincts such as anger, fear, love, hate or revenge for that matter. Quite frankly the only really likeable character in part 2 was Lev and mainly cause he is still a kid who has not chosen to be born in these horrible times and this world is being forced on him in all it's horror.

I do t understand holding on to a grudge for 25 years. She heard her dad talk about killing a little girl to "potentially" find a cure and heard that it already failed once before so her not ever coping with the fact that someone came to save that girl is too immature for me to ever find relatability with her (which is the main thing the game was banking on). I dont even care about joel personally but i cared even less about abby and her shitty friends one whos a two timer and the other whos going on missions with a pregnant baby in her stomach. If youre going to get rid of well rlwritten characters at least replace them with good if not better characters. This game tried so hard to be "the first game to do this" that they stopped working on trying to be a well written game.

@@kingpin3690 it’s a different thing when you’re a kid and you live through a traumatic experience. You don’t need to go too far - just think of majority of child abuse victims… in regards to 25 years… I’m pretty sure It’s only been like what.. 5-6? Abby is in her very early 20s if that

I would reply to everything you say but I see enough in your first point to realize that would be irrelevant. Ellie and Joel literally walk across the US in part1, how would it be any more difficult in a Humvee going only a state or two? Also, yeah, Abby killed some WLF she didn't even know. TO SAVE A CHILD!!! Another thing? Who gives an actual fck about her muscles, don't be that guy.

Months late, I know, but spot on. A non combat option would go a long way to mitigate a lot of the issues, that exist with its theme and the actual gameplay and story beats. For example, you can't progress, if you don't kill Abbey's dog and you kill her friends in a cutscene, so you're put on a path and given no option to change or impact the outcome.

Exactly. Another point. They really want us to feel bad for killing the pregnant and to think Elly is horrible. Dude we just killed 150 people in 3 days. And at least Elly is likeable

Exactly. Another point. They really want us to feel bad for killing the pregnant and to think Elly is horrible. Dude we just killed 150 people in 3 days. And at least Elly is likeable

Exactly. Another point. They really want us to feel bad for killing the pregnant and to think Elly is horrible. Dude we just killed 150 people in 3 days. And at least Elly is likeable

Exactly. Another point. They really want us to feel bad for killing the pregnant and to think Elly is horrible. Dude we just killed 150 people in 3 days. And at least Elly is likeable

It's mostly closed minded little kids that only see in black and white hate this game. The games a masterpiece and very successful

@@rayromano6249 it's funny how all of the tlou2 dick riders say the exact same sentence when praising it. Without fail. It's a good game in my opinion but you guys stay calling it a masterpiece lmao.

@@rayromano6249 sure buddy💀

@@Kukisei lol gonna cry?

@@rayromano6249 Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but yeah you're correct to some extent, TLOU2 is simply a very misunderstood and unfairly criticized game.

That's why I feel like they should have let's us play for two hours with Joel and trying to reconcile with Ellie and expanding on characters/relationships there, and then 2 hours with Abby exploring the WLF and scar stuff expanding their characters and giving them more personality and more reason to connect with them. Switch back and forth until the end where Joel and Abby meet have Abby actually state the reason she wants to kill Joel in front of Ellie and have Joel give the "I'm sorry I screwed you over, but if God gave me a second chance I'd do it all over again." Then kill him or not depending on the direction the directors wanted to take it. And PT.3 could be Ellie tracking down Abby. Abby having to take down the rest of the WLF so her and Lev are safe, and possibly Ellie forming a temporary truce with Abby to take down the WLF because for some reason their after both. Then at the end have that same final fight, and you could even throw in Dina leaving Ellie because of her lust for vengeance.

But Dina could stay with her too but I feel like if they took their time got you more involved with Abby and made her a more rounded character then her killing Joel would still be heartbreaking but not as hate inducing I don't think anyways

My opinion none of those are problems, it’s a real development of ellie’s character that she didn’t decide to end Abby’s life. They’re both girls who hate eachother until the end which is a solution to me. There’s nothing to gain from getting revenge unless you just want that satisfaction

@@nernoision i just don’t think that’s reasonable, when all you have left is the satisfaction of killing her and it’s been your mission this entire time. Why would visions of Joel make her decide not to kill the one who took him? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with her wanting revenge, especially in that situation. But they shoved the little kid into the mix to make it make some kind of sense

@@tonyflamingosucks6590 I don’t really judge the games story, I liked the game for what it was. that’s me and I don’t have a problem with what your saying. Most of it made sense to me, that it wasn’t in Ellie’s heart after slaughtering all her enemies to see even the killer of her father figure dead and Abbys companion Lev sit in grief. Doing the revenge ending is out of selfish ambition or vain conceit rather in humility, aka valuing the lives of others above yourself. Not the best explanation but it’s what I can say here

the second time is really a lot easier than the first ngl

@@kowxley1793 that goes for literally anything honestly

That's why I've stuck to just watching gameplay for the sequel. Don't think I'll ever try to play this game since the remake is on the way. New animations and quality of life features without the story of 2.

you're weak.

Only because of Joel? You're missing out.

didnt care about joel i only like arthur morgan but yeah i agree with you about joel’s death the whole vaccine doesnt work to be honest its a 20 year too late

@@VannywiththeFanny I already beat TLOU2...I didnt miss out on anything

The writing is shit

That’s just not true. The second game directly follows through the ending and consequences of the first game

@@TheSCIOnce what i mean is the relationship between joel and ellie, it was only explored through one flashback and never again, it was the main thing i was looking forward to when i finished the first game, and to see not a single thing developed through the two of them in the second game was my reason why i thought that honestly.

@@TheSCIOnce This has nothing to do with OP's comment, and I don't see where they stated that Part II doesn't explore the repercussions of Part I.

@@gatorslayer2388 I don’t believe that’s true either. She’s on a revenge quest for his murder throughout her entire play through and there are multiple flashbacks throughout that highlight how their relationship had evolved between games.

Bruce and Amy left or were pushed out, and 70% of the staff quit.

@@miller-joel I remember Naughty Dog getting some heat for how Neil over works people funny how that got hushed up

@@CynicallyObnoxious He's co-president of the company now, so it worked out pretty well for him.

@@miller-joel True unfortunately that’s how the games played but Naughty Dog as a studio has fallen from grace especially with all that agenda pushing involved in the Last Of Us 2

@@dev8582 "part II" didn't do so well, and now the attempt to re-re-sell "part I" has not worked, either. Will they learn, or will they keep blaming the fans? I don't see any indication they are ready to take responsibility.

exactly what i felt! abby started this sibling or even parent relationship with lev and with ellie experiencing loss of her father figure why would she continue the cycle for lev who had nobody besides abby. i felt all the emotions you felt too i felt anger and then just like ugh i don’t necessarily want to kill abby now and hurt lev who doesn’t deserve that. it’s an amazing game and i loved reading that someone went on the exact same emotional rollercoaster i did.

@@MandyRazon It’s truly a masterpiece. And honestly, over time, I’ve grown to love Abby.

@Minicrom I get what you mean, but I thinks really just up to personal taste. I for one, had no issue with it.

Yea there is no way a PS5 can run TLOU2 at 4K Native 60fps when its just a 6700XT + 3700U

Oh wow. That's crazy. Ive ways found the first game to be the most mediocre slog I've ever played. (Minus the opening cinematic) and I loved the second. To each their own I guess

Honestly same. I feel like the first one is HIGHLY replayable. I’ve never even thought of playin The Last of us 2 again because it’s such a slog to me.

@@redneckreviews3016 Unpopular opinion but I actually agree. I was really bored by the first one, but it did grow on me. The second I liked it but thought the story was a lot more stupid but not as bad as everyone screams over. I wasn't bothered by Joel's death I just wanted to see what they had in store and the answer unfortunately ended up being "not much".

@@Stabzcell97812 I quite enjoy the second one. But the first one. Wow. What a slog. It was predictable and Ellie. Omg. What an annoying character.

@@redneckreviews3016 Who doesn't hate brats amiright?

Let it all out son🥹

Kinda like real life lol

To be honest I kind of liked his death exactly for the reasons you didn't like it. Kind of reminds me of the brutality of real life and how sometimes they're just isn't a buildup. Happens

@@gatewayrealtor664 yeah the problem is that makes for terrible storytelling. Best stories generally dramatise realistic events, that’s not just through dialogue, physical expression, but also in pacing, plot twists, buildup. Most real life events are a lot simpler than any media that it’s based off. Like that’s just how people work, most affective stories have all these artificial elements because they take and immerse us into fantasised scenarios. They’re often more horrifying and twisted and have an element of suspension of disbelief whenever the hero has plot armour. They’re these heightened ups and downs. Now, that doesn’t mean you have to go overboard in either direction, it’s all about balance. The Last Of Us takes itself seriously by really immersing you into a pretty realistic environment. And the first game especially made it clear through clever writing, scripted events, gameplay and nuance in storytelling that it’s a serious drama, with serious consequences. And it was partly immersive because you felt the constant lingering of danger from all sides even if the characters got out of unrealistically dangerous situations. They were believable ENOUGH. Joel’s death on the other hand isn’t believable, not because it’s sudden and doesn’t have build up, that criticism falls more under the execution of storytelling, in terms of how it was conveyed from a STORY perspective. In terms of the realism aspect, it too falls short, as from a logical standpoint, Joel shouldn’t have let his guard down, and shouldn’t have said his name (Tommy too). The popular defence for this is “Joel got too comfortable and confident in Jackson.” Except that too makes no sense, first of all, he’s already had 20 years of experience in the first game, and as seen through flashbacks in part 2, their patrols in Jackson were still very tense. Hell even before Ellie sets out with Jessie and Dina, they make a point to highlight how Joel always troubles them with making sure they are prepared and check their routes (because this is an apocalypse after all…) which further reinforces at the start of the game that this world is dangerous and that Joel is overprotective for a reason. So for him to switch his entire attitude in a blink to a bunch of armed strangers is in direct contrast to what was literally just established. It’s hypocritical which shows a lack of consistency from the writers as well as the lack of their awareness and understanding of what’s already been established both for the lore and the characters. I don’t have a problem with the act of killing Joel itself being sudden. Again, they could’ve shown the viewer that there is a plot against Joel being formulated and that this impending doom is lurking and could strike at any moment. Then during an intense encounter, they could have the player in a moment of relief and banter, showing the characters being happy to survive another crazy situation and talking about whose going to buy who a drink or whatever. And then Joel could literally get headshot out of nowhere, or just ambushed and tortured to death. The difference is, one, you establish for the viewer that there is a threat lurking (which only the viewer knows, not the heroes, which creates tension as you start to fear for their safety each time they let their guard down or feel safe as the protagonists themselves aren’t aware of the danger, which still ticks the box of it being realistic), you then make tension build up through gameplay as you don’t know when YOU the player will encounter this threat and how will the characters adapt to it without your input (as this is a linear story), and then once it does happen, you still feel helpless and surprised as the game could easily fake you out with a moment of relief only for it to turn into a horror scene and the characters also sharing that element of surprise. Which again, would satisfy anyone who enjoyed a surprise death and meet the criteria of characters not knowing. Which again, I never mentioned anything about the characters knowing, it’s about the viewer knowing, since we’re the ones experiencing the story. That example treats the characters with more respect, as it maintains the consistency of the characters not being stupid or simply throwing out any survival lessons they accumulated for decades. And still showcases that it’s often in moments we feel most secure that something unexpected and shocking can happen. The difference is, one treats well established characters as idiots, and one doesn’t. It’s that simple, again, I don’t really care that Joel died, but rather how they executed was sloppy from every point of view, it didn’t make sense for the lore, it didn’t make sense for what’s been developed, it didn’t make sense from a logical stand point (backed by again what’s been established). That’s all, ultimately, my biggest disagreement on this matter is more to do with people that think this is how you tell a good story, it isn’t. Yes art has plenty of ways to be achieved/expressed, but to every form/medium, there are underlying truths. And when it comes to writing, this game did so much wrong by ignoring those truths.

@@gatewayrealtor664 sorry for the long reply lol

You never played, there's no Dana character

@@Darkdirewulf obviously it's a typo haha

I love the bank heist gone wrong backstory, as well as the Rat King backstory. Idk they just stand out

I thought that was one of the worst parts in the game lol

@@Labyriiint I kind of agree. It was really cool the first time I played through but on replays it’s a bit of a chore

It’s because most people have such an incredibly dogmatic way of thinking and unlike most media we consume nowadays, Tlou 2 strove to destroy our black and white, hero and villain way of thinking but I Neil Druckman overlooked the fact that folks are emotionally immature and dumb:( Edit: if you were to weigh up all the awful acts that the main characters did you would find that technically, Joel and Ellie are much more awful people then Abby. Joel said he used to be on both sides of ambushes, killed a lot of innocent people, murdered countless fireflies, killed Abby’s dad and doomed the human race to no cure not only just to survive but to fill his selfish desires and his love for Ellie and Ellie Murdered All of Abby’s friends and Alice and a pregnant Mel (albeit unknowingly) whereas Abby simply murdered Joel and Jessy also destroyed her life in Seattle to rescue two seraphite kids. A lot of Abby’s actions are a reactive whereas Ellie’s are active. So we have to ask ourselves, why are we actually mad about Joel’s death? From a logistical standpoint it’s a good thing for the verse but it’s because he was put infront of us first. To anyone who is thinking about re playing TLOU2, please try to detach yourself from the black and white, bad and good, hero and Villain way of thinking and observe these characters as simply people like you and me trying to get by and I promise you you will have a much more captivating and unique experience with the game:) (sorry for spelling mistakes haven’t slept in almost 24 hours)

This game should be deleted from existence

Same here. I had to separate myself from the game for 2 years and after I platinum it this past June, it went from a 7/10 to a 9/10. I still feel the Abby section drags a bit but the story is quite solid in my opinion.

EXACTLY. The game becomes a chore and Abby is unlikeable. I really did not mind she killed Joel because I can understand. But all this combined let to the perception that people were not smart or artsy enough to understand. Only degenerates with no expectations of quality watch The Walking Dead and the Baseball Bat guy is the protagonist. You know what the difference is. He is fun and likeable. While Abby is boring and annoying.

EXACTLY. The game becomes a chore and Abby is unlikeable. I really did not mind she killed Joel because I can understand. But all this combined let to the perception that people were not smart or artsy enough to understand. Only degenerates with no expectations of quality watch The Walking Dead and the Baseball Bat guy is the protagonist. You know what the difference is. He is fun and likeable. While Abby is boring and annoying.

EXACTLY. The game becomes a chore and Abby is unlikeable. I really did not mind she killed Joel because I can understand. But all this combined let to the perception that people were not smart or artsy enough to understand. Only degenerates with no expectations of quality watch The Walking Dead and the Baseball Bat guy is the protagonist. You know what the difference is. He is fun and likeable. While Abby is boring and annoying.

EXACTLY. The game becomes a chore and Abby is unlikeable. I really did not mind she killed Joel because I can understand. But all this combined let to the perception that people were not smart or artsy enough to understand. Only degenerates with no expectations of quality watch The Walking Dead and the Baseball Bat guy is the protagonist. You know what the difference is. He is fun and likeable. While Abby is boring and annoying.

EXACTLY. The game becomes a chore and Abby is unlikeable. I really did not mind she killed Joel because I can understand. But all this combined let to the perception that people were not smart or artsy enough to understand. Only degenerates with no expectations of quality watch The Walking Dead and the Baseball Bat guy is the protagonist. You know what the difference is. He is fun and likeable. While Abby is boring and annoying.

Actually, in the final scene, Joel says that if God gave him a second chance, he’d do it all over again’, implying he’d still do the same thing and save her. Ellie right after gives her speech where she says she can’t forgive him, but “would like to try”. There’s an interesting analysis of this from RU-vid. Essentially, Joel says he’ll choose to save Ellie each time, even if it meant losing a vaccine, because Ellie being alive is more meaningful to the world than any vaccine could. I really don’t think the game ‘demonises’ Joel. If anything, it humanises him by opening him to making faults and mistakes that any other person would make during an apocalypse. and Ellie certainly was open to forgiving Joel because she explicitly states she would.

We don’t actually know the outcome of what would have happened. Sure matpat made a games theory of why it wouldn’t work but that doesn’t really mean anything for the story. As far as anyone knows, there was just as good of a chance it worked as it if it didn’t.

The problem is its not a virus, it's a fungal infection, so a vaccine wouldn't work; vaccines are for viruses.

@@jonenrique This. Everyone who hates on the story always says the game is demonizing Joel. But it's only demonizing him if you assumed he was an angel. The game isn't demonizing him at all. It's just being honest about how others in this brutal world would react to his decision.

Yep. Its because neil hates joel

Ellie may not have explicitly said that but she did give hint that she would do whatever it takes to get a cure even if it meant that she would end up dying. In Part 2 she states it explicitly. And here is the thing, Joel knew better than anyone that Ellie would sacrifice herself which is why he never even contemplated telling it to Ellie. What Joel did was barbaric but we understand where he is coming from and perhaps that is the beauty of the game. And Ellie had her doubts which is why she asked joel to swear which Joel did. Ellie, a 13 year old girl, put trust in Joel. It was all bound to fall apart if Ellie were to find out which happened in the sequel. Let me tell you something about life, sometimes you get put into difficult situation where there is no obvious choice and whatever you do will be criticized one way or the other.. That is the beauty of part 1. Was the surgery a guarantee? Not really. But it was the best chance of fireflies to fabricate a cure. Part 2 is a natural sequel of Part 1. It was always supposed to be tied with the first game and it did. And doing so it pissed of people but here is the thing, some stories are brutal.

@@akramhossain4678 a young teen saying she would do whatever it takes is not the same as putting it in her hands and saying would u die for a possible clause. Example, people say they would do anything for money, love, objects etc. But if the devil or someone who could make it happen said to u ,"okay, u can have one of those things but u must die", everyone changes their tune, the stakes are play it's no longer an exaggeration.

@@carmineglitch but we do find out that she was willing to sacrifice herself, don't we? Ellie was already suffering from Survivor's guilt with the death of her friend. She wanted her immunity to have a meaning.

@@akramhossain4678 no, survivors guilt?? I'm an EMT and I can first hand tell u emotionally people say they are willing to do for whatever, put when put in the position ur survival instincts kick in, Ellie isn't Jesus, she isnt throwing her self to the crucifix for mankind, it's silly to think she would. She's upset that her friend died and she didn't, and shares guilt for that. It's different if we see how she would handle the choice if she were concious, but it's way crazier and a better story she's not conscious and Joel saved her from death and it's extremely good and bad that he did saver her, it's a very trivial outcome, which makes the whole ending even more memorable, that's pretty dope

@@carmineglitch being an EMT means you are dealing with people in desperate situations. Ellie's mental state wouldn't have been same and she had a long time to think about what she was willing to sacrifice. Regardless, it's said in the second game that Ellie wanted to sacrifice herself. Whether she would have changed her mind at the moment is moot.

Joel and Ellie's relationship is what made the 1st game great, Absolutely. The 2nd game caves Joel's head in and then moves forward with a lesbian love story that I have absolutely no interest in playing. Mind you I've got no problem with Lesbian love stories(Carol was a great movie), but this was shoehorned in there by Neil Cuckman and his feminist buddies. Totally forced and not genuine or organic at all.

@@Mattblaze1477 part 2 is ellies story, and she is a lesbian. so if you got no interest in her relationships you got no interest in her

relationship which literally is a minor plot part on the grand scheme of the game

@@Mattblaze1477 You sound ridiculous. You know that right? Tell me, would you speak like this in front of people? Like, in public?

@@Mattblaze1477 absolutely fucking braindead comment. Sounds like you frequent the last of us 2 subreddit too much

Lack? There's literally MORE good companion characters in this game.

@@VannywiththeFanny cap

@@Silver_Wolf-141 It's true tho my man. You know it, and I know it.

double cap

@@Silver_Wolf-141 Denial is a beautiful thing.

You didnt notice how klling the pregnant girl affected her? Or how Abby spared ellies pregnant girlfriend? Wow, must have played the game upside down in spanish

@@Flipitmixit The only person Ellie failed to murder, was the only person who deserves to die. Abby killed Joel, Jesse, shot Tommy in the head, and threatened to kill her pregnant girlfriend. It was great that Ellie murdered hundreds of random people, throughout the entire game without a second thought, then stopped when it came to the only person who deserves to die. Again, it's a perfect game, 10/10 dead pregnant women, would play again!!!

@@mangaas Who said Abby "deserved" to die?😂😂Because she killed another murderer with a golfclub? No one is better than anyone, theyre all pieces of shit. Ellie was gonna kill Abby to make the nightmares stop, then noticed they stopped without her having to. Datsit, revenge doesnt bring peace. Who cares that she killed random people along the way you've been doing that for 2 games with every character you play as why is it a problem all of a sudden😂 That being said you dont have to like it, to each theyre own brother

Even the FBI approves of this game

EXACTLY. Jesus, this take isn't so hard to understand. Everyone is stuck on this bUtT mUh jOLe aN eLLy 🥴🥴🥴bullshit lol

my problem was they should have let us play as Abby first get us attached and cared about her before she killed Joel then it would have been received better not kill Joel in the first 20 seconds of the game. then it would have really been a confliction

Ellie lets go yes abby nahhh she only let ellie go cuz Lev was there you can tell by the camera and maybe yes abby let go but not that moment definitly

@@grandvianna8551 nobody wanted Abby on the first place lmao.. cry about it

If u hate the game because Joel dies ur mind must be close shut so nothing new that challenges ur prospective can ever enter.

They didn’t want to spoil anything

Cant disagree with you. It was really exhaustive, but that only means, how well the narrative structure was for the game. I myself want to play it the 2nd time, and I definitely will (maybe after a year :P)

I hate this game because it's emotionally manipulative by screaming you are a bad person when the game forces you to do bad things like when you were forced to kill a dog in a completely railroaded section only for that dog that show up in a flashback.

@@mariobadia4553 So you're basically telling me you hate the game for succeeding at what it set out to do?

@@mariobadia4553 its not telling you that you're bad, its showing you that there's two sides to every story. In most media you only get a fair non-biased point of view from side, so start to believe that everyone you're fighting is complete and utter irredeemable evil. In this game you see both sides though, from one side you see a friendly and loyal guard dog, from the other you see a beast that will kill you if you don't kill it first. Life isn't as cut and dry as just good vs evil, both sides can be good and bad.

@@mariobadia4553 these aren't even your words lmao

Yeah, you can even find TONS of video essays and posts titled: "this game changed my life". Huge numbers of people are DEEPLY moved by this story because the narrative is so existentially compelling, by humanizing one of the most easily dehumanized characters I can think of. If your mind can handle the discomfort of testing your association bias, at least.

@@ResoluteDeicide christ you people are pretentious as fuck

Bro you fully need to use grammar

@@ResoluteDeicide Exactly. Unfortunately we underestimated how many people couldn't handle it, or refused to even try it based on prejudice.

@@mikes5637 yeah, totally astonishing to me, personally. Just shooting themselves in the foot, ultimately.

Oh not a bad idea

But thats not the narrative Naughty Dog wanted. They wanted to show how blind the hate can be, just like love. They wanted you to not know Abby, and let the hate rise up within you. Thats the whole purpose of the prologue. And then, they wanted to shift the perspective of not just the character but of the player themsleves. They wanted to challenge you to start liking or even empathize with someone you so blindly hate. This is the narrative ND wanted. To challenge the players, and make them change their perspective. In any way though, they succeeded in telling their narrative. For ex: If you empthasized with Abby, ND succeeded in telling you that there are always two sides of the coin. If you couldn't forgive Abby or refused to play as her, ND still won by telling you just how blind the hate can be. It was a win-win situation for ND, which is why I think haters still cant make peace with it. There are some developers who can nail Ludo-Narrative Dissossance and then there is Naughty Dog, who uses Ludo Narrative dissosance as a "tool" to tell their stories.

I didn’t care about Abby until the last mission of the game with the fight with Ellie her character changed and it was all about revenge for Ellie, I think Ellie should’ve ended her there in the water she straight up just murked joel with a crowd very cruel even tho the things he did didn’t make his death right by her, her revenge should’ve had more consequences but I guess losing her friends and loved ones was punishment enough, as Ellies revenge only caused her to lose a finger losing the only connection her and joel had, after all revenge is a fools game- Arthur Morgan

@@piyush0092 The problem is that Joel was completely justified in his actions, while Abby wasn't. It really is as simple as that, at least in my perspective. I just didn't care about Abby and do not feel in the slightest that ND won. Actually, I think they do not understand the ending they made in the first game, thus having this game no impact on me other than being completely frustrated by it.

@@piyush0092 perfeclty said

I completely agree with you, that was my biggest issue with TLOU2. It's like the writers forgot they weren't working on an Uncharted game.

@@SydBarker right?!?

So the numerous times joel and Ellie get saved just in time by another character in part 1 weren't coincidences?

There are always coincidences in stories so that they work because realistically life isn’t like that and the more realistic you try to make something the less of a story it becomes. I disagree with you that this game has too many coincidences but I will say the one that was really bad was Joel’s death. The reason Joel’s death didn’t work is that doing an impactful moment like this needs to be seamless and having Abby just find Joel like that was done poorly. At least have Abby out in the freezing weather searching for a patrol and almost die until Joel saves her. Have Abby and Joel stuck in the storm together and show Joel has changed a lot since the first game so when he gives up his name, he doesn’t look dumb to people. Abby gets her kill but can feel guilty about how she didn’t giving more depth to her character. Im not saying I can right a better story because I liked the story but I will only agree with you in that case. When people point out “coincidences” all of them can be exampled logically. When Dina saves Ellie after she is taken captive, people complained that Jordan should of killed Ellie there but the point was he wanted information from Ellie. Also it’s not hard to believe Dina track the WLF to the school to save Ellie. That’s one popular example but look at any story ever. Stories can’t work without coincidences and the only bad one in the Last of Us Part 2 was Joel death but if you can show actual examples of what you are describing that would give me a clearly understanding of what you meant.

@@hopelesslyoptimistic8231 Are we still with the same lie? Joel NEVER SAYS HIS NAME, IT'S TOMMY WHO SAYS THE NAME. Joel doesn't trust Abby, THEY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE WITH AN HORDE FOLLOWING THEM THAN TAKING THE BEST CHANCE. What did you want that Joel do? "Oh, no, you don't look reliable, we'll stay here and get eaten by the infected, better that than finding the shelter where your people is".

Imagine starting up God of War Ragnarok, and at the beginning they have Freya kill Kratos and you only play Atreus and Freya for the rest of the game....

I don't think its similar at all, tbh. Halo is a power fantasy and Master Chief is the most capable person on any planet. He has no emotions and he's damn near invincible. Joel on the other hand is a normal man with a tragic past in a dark, horrible world where people die for little to no reason at any time. I just think those are two VERY different character types

@@ghengis423 What I mean is that they are the face of the game they are the iconic character of their game, the main reason to play the game. I'm not trying to compare their CHARACTER with each other. For example killing Master Chief would upset a lot of fans and therefore stop a lot of them from playing Halo because noone wants a bootleg to replace Master Chief. Just like noone wanted Abby to replace Joel.

Then wanted you to like his killer

@@calvinwilson3617 And dislike Ellie.

If u don’t like the edginess kinda taking over at points then yeah I get that

Your not very bright

All masterpieces are.

People just love to throw around the word masterpiece

I’m pretty sure in the first game she wanted her life and her immunity to mean something. It’s not much of a stretch to think she would have preferred to die than to essentially in her mind doom humanity. This is fleshed out and makes more sense when you consider the dlc. I’ve played both games part 2 only once because it’s an emotional slog and part 1 like 3 or 4 times and the story makes sense with very little to no retconning between the two needed.

I think you got a slightly wrong impression from the original. The fireflies were not necessarily portrayed as "the bad guys" and that was a back and forth that the characters were discussing. They did horrible things, and their methods at the end of the game were wrong, but not all of them were the same. Joel killed the force of the group, the soldiers. The doctors however, and the researchers etc wanted to use that very rare immunity of Ellie to *potentially* save the world. There was no retcon, just further explanation on Marlene and the difficult choice. If you think about it they were in a tight spot when they made that choice. Also you are literally ignoring like 50% of Ellie's character by making fun of her feelings towards Joels action. There are many reasons she felt that way that were present in the og as well. You are ignoring it, respectfully

Cmon dude, i know you can use your brain a little bit more to interpret the games.

@@Noctuam734 right, makes you wonder where all the people talking about the Artistic interpretation of the first game are coming from. Clearly these guys like simple stories which Part 1 wasn’t.

Hate to be cringe and paraphrase the Dark Knight, "Not the game we wanted, but the game we deserved." (By "deserved" in this context i mean TLOU2 is worthy sequel to the first game, and we deserve to have our perspectives on Joel and really the whole story as a whole.)

The story was utter garbage the only reason you feel that way is because of the second to none gameplay and graphics along with the immersion they created. If that same story didn't have those amazing developers it would have been the biggest flop of all time but they saved it

@@2nerC9 Just go to therapy, dude.

@@2nerC9 Learn how to respect other people's opinion, buddy

@@2nerC9 you need to play some real games lil bro, lay off the horizons and the assassin's creeds AHAHAHHA

Even tho I overall agree with you. You kinda lost me with your first point. Enemies shouting random names when you kill some of them is the most lazy and surface level mechanic that I've ever seen. Even when enemy begs you to spare him, he just dies after a few seconds or shots you. There is nothing imersive about it, you can't interogate them or just let them go. They always die. Assassin's Creed did this better in 2010.

@@gamefan987 You have to be joking

@@joaodavid1369 was it worth it ?

@@joaodavid1369 He's right. The game has much more impressive quirks and features than that.

This was my takeaway: I have no problem with the themes being explored, I have no problem with trying to show nuance, but the fact that Ellie never found out WHY Abby took "revenge" is baffling. Ellie lost everything, and though we are meant to believe she had growth, it seems almost impossible that a person would have this growth without reason to reflect or empathise. Showing past conversations with Joel is all well and good as a way to draw parallels, but they can hardly be effective if Ellie doesn't know the stakes. I find it really hard to believe that Ellie's beliefs/motives would change for arbitrary empathy, "oh Joel must have done something pretty bad, that's the only reason why somebody would want to kill him". If Ellie's revelation could have been this simplistic and only brought about by her own actions (and not a combination of reflection and empathising) then it would have happened maybe an hour into her revenge quest, when she's killing her 5th 'victim'.

My thought exactly, very well put! Excellent comment, thank you for this!

joel was not made into a villain and the first game had coincidences too, that kinda happens in every game in fact

@@evryfckinnameistaken your comment is valid dude. For sure games and films have coincidences in them but there are more subtle or clever ways to portray those coincidences. In my opinion, I don’t think TLOU 2 did that in that matter. For the case of Joel, I felt he was made out to be a villain in most regard. However, like any piece of media such as film or games, they’re subjective - that was just my interpretation.

True!!!

@@mikadietz3686 ellie was pissed at him for denying her the choice she made to sacrifice herself, that's as far as him being portrayed as a "villain" goes

I feel you on all of that, really felt like they knew what story they wanted to tell, and instead of trying to frame it within the previous game’s established story and characters, they had to retroactively change events and assassinate characters to get it to happen (Joel and Tommy being so open about everything about them, despite being hardened survivors for a good example). I wish I could’ve liked this game cause everything other than the story is superb imo.

@@CartrKillsGrunt That’s exactly how I feel mate :)

I disagree very heavily with you and recommend that you watch the two hour video essay by Noah Caldwell-Gervais where he explains why The Last of Us Part 2 was the perfect sequel to The Last of Us Part 1 and why doing anything else would have been doing the franchise an injustice. He lays out his points very well and addresses your obviously flawed issues with the game.

@@Mike20we watched that video a while ago, have been a fan of his for a while, but had to disagree. When I look at what happens in the game it just requires mental gymnastics to reach the conclusion that this is the only way it should’ve gone. When the Fireflies are shown all throughout the first game to be barely competent and almost certainly not going to be successful because of said incompetency, then the sequel says they were altruistic and borderline saviours of humanity it makes me seriously question whether or not they wanted a sequel with the same characters or the story they wanted to tell. By all means enjoy it, I really do wish I could. Just noticed on another comment you copy pasted that there as well. Any particular reason you’re doing that instead of just saying what you disagree with exactly?

@@CartrKillsGrunt I just copied it twice to two people that made a similar comment. I just don't have the time or the will to write whole paragraphs and essays right now and linking to video is much more efficient and gets the point or even better across.

well said tom

Ellie went back Bc of Tommy, she was fucking chilling until the guy who didn’t want to get involved all of a sudden was all for killing abby and shamed her into it. It’s almost like they forgot about it, like the whole story was written poorly. Who knows tho, maybe it I just can’t relate to Abby the cheater, who killed all of her friends in persuit of a four year revenge plot, who than was fine betraying the people who took her in for two people she just met. Your sure are right tho, I’m sure they just Bc they killed a guy they loved. In a poorly written way too.

@@jsgdhsusx2860 i dont know, looked like ellie was gonna go back sooner or later, tommy just grew mad because of his brother dying, HIS brother

@@TheSadMusician she had some traumatic flashbacks but that’s about it, the only time she started being restless and such was when Tommy showed up. She would’ve lived with the trama happily as she could be if he hadn’t. And tommy was ANGRY before, but BEFORE he knew that maybe his brother wouldn’t want his surrogate daughter to get hurt tracking down anybody who killed him, which is why he left without her. They were even talking about leaving Abby alive and leaving before Abby busted down the door. He made a complete 180 and it was out of character. Like this whole poorly written mess. And telling you the same thing I told others, you can still like the game, love it even. Just don’t call it a masterpiece like the guy above did without looking at the sheer ammont of flaws in it.

I really think this is what some people are missing. It's a game about forgiveness but it isn't asking you to try and forgive Abby, just understand why she did what she did. Just like ellie not fully forgiving Joel, but letting him know that she would like to try because she understood what Joel went through.

The flash backs were close to those cheerful moments, but not nearly long enough if I remember. Abby had a great cinematic moments, but she played like a looser joel, which is how he'll probably feel come the remake.

The giraffes in the first game was one of the best cut scenes in gaming history. So memorable.🦒

@@peachcup4413 those flashbacks were a nice touch, but didn't work for me because I knew he wasn't coming back kiddo

So you just want to cut the game in half because of Abby lol

I kind of wish Abby was Ellies mother. A mother pregnant in the apocalypse, or whatever the theory was, seeing the ugliest people have become. New cults, zombies are more wide spread. Constant danger of losing a child. A mother daughter relationship in a way. Meanwhile Ellie is out to kill those who killed joel. We see a mother protect her child only for it to waste it's time on revenge, and soon forgiveness. More tragic but a better idea imo

Ghost of Tsushima was great but the story wasn’t anywhere near as complex or compelling as TLOU 2. Ghost got a lot of praise but anyone who thinks it was deserving of all its praise and also thinking TLOU 2 was garbage are just wrong (a lot of people thought this and made the comparison at the time).

@@kirkvanallen5202 complexity =/= quality or compelling Anyone who thinks that TLOU 2 is the second coming of Jesus and thinks that people only like Ghost just to stick it up to TLOU fans is a problem and is wrong.

@@TheWefikus To be fair people were weirdly doing the latter

@@TheWefikus I really like both games I own them and beat them both. There was a portion of people who played TLou2 didn’t like what happened or the fact Joel died and raged at it went and play ghosts loved it which is fair and then propped up that love by comparing it to TLOU2 and shitting on the game. Most people who love part 2 still think part 1 is better and a lot of us understand it had flaws but none of its pacing flaws or small story flaws outweigh how great it is in basically all other avenues including how emotionally gripping it is.

I don't see how Ghost and LOUp2 are related. They have almost nothing in common. Which I guess might be why some people like one over the other. But it makes neither one worse than the other. Maybe you prefer ketchup, or maybe you prefer mustard, but it doesn't make the other bad - and you can have both.

Except he didn't show what he placed, so there is no way to verify and know if it was a legit question. Just look at other reviews or reddit to see that there are plenty of people that played the entire game and hated it because the story is simply bad

@@tommm2011 I love that at the end. "...the story is simply bad". I haven't found a single soul who was able to communicate why this story is "objectively bad". I'm not denying potential flaws but people really misunderstood the intentions and the characters themselves. It's a subtle game at times that no one can declare it as "objectively" anything because that is the entire point . If you don't like this at all, it's absolutely fine and your opinion is justified. After all you paid for it and you didn't get what you were hoping for. I understand. But that is not criticism. And criticism is not hate either.

@@tommm2011 All your credit is lost when you said reddit lmfao. Just say you're too dumb and play something else, it's fine.

@@stam7250 Watch nakeyJakey's video

No revenge is also bad from abbey's point of view. She loses all her friends and her lover and she ends up being tortured and imprisoned. Neither Abbey or Ellie are happy at the end of the game

It's not about violence is bad, it's about grief. Watch the last cutscene with Joel that plays near the end of the game, thats the most important custscene that tells you what the story is about but it seemed to go over everyone's heads

@@Handonforehead Yeah? And the game is saying what about grief? What is it exploring about grief? Grief only exists to serve a theme of revenge in this game. That’s it. It’s no deeper than that. And the theme of revenge is explored as deeply as simply saying “hey, revenge is bad, guys. It’s futile.” It’s a visceral experience that I’m sure draws some big emotions, which is valid in it’s own right, but narratively and thematically, the game just isn’t very good. It’s shallow and it thinks very highly of itself. It’s very overrated on that level.

Exactly People tend to forget the purpose of those flashbacks isn't just to throw in some Joel for nostalgia date or emotional manipulation, but for us to see what she is currently thinking about when those scenes are about to play out. It's what she's thinking about in the moment.