I never did ICC back in the day, real life had other plans… so its been a lot of fun to progress. And a kingslayer title week one (even if it was on 10man normal) felt pretty good. Finding out that none of Normal LK’s loot is an upgrade for anyone… did not feel as good 😂
@@eeriiss24 Then I would assume you probably raided something else past WotLK... or a good chunk of your raid did. There is no way in hell a raid of ppl who only ever played Classic from 2019 onwards, and never touched PS before, would find LK25hc easy. And no, wiping 200+ times on him on PTR then oneshotting him on live doesn't mean it's easy.
I killed professor putricide on 10 heroic back in the days, playing holy paladin. This was the most intense and difficult boss fight i ever participated in wow. Good old times.
Love the fact that later bosses just have somewhat less kills overall, nvm heroic (meaning some people are still progressing on normal, basicaly). Seems like a sweet spot to be in (sure, retail raids are harder objectively but I guess it's pointless to compare, classic's demographic is different and distinct).
Well a lot of classic's demographic went back to Vanilla, WotLK had a different demographic than Vanilla back in the day too. Especially when people started quitting during 3.1 and even more so during 3.2(because Tier 9 and trial of the grand crusade were the worst tier and raid in WoW's history). It's just that the numbers were growing slightly faster than the people who were leaving. You can see how WotLK plateues in 3.1-3.3.5 and again has a slight bump in 4.0.3/6 and then drops in 4.1 when there was no raid tier, the dungeons and raids were too hard due to lack of Easy difficulty like WotLK's 10 Man Normal in Cata and the much harder class design.
@@mcfarvo IMO there should be 2 or 3 difficulties. Normal Should be engaging and challenging, but not punishing, tuned semi-tightly allowing for a mistake or two and puggable. Hard should be challenging and punishing, tuned so you have to be at the top of the lowest dps spec at the very least and have perfect coordination. If Normal is too much for some people, then an Easy mode where it's engaging, you still have to do the mechanics, but there is more room for error and not requiring any form strict DPS on fights, but still requiring decent DPS and perhaps fewer mechanics happen at a time and is absolutely puggable. Again the most important part of this difficutly is that it is engaging and you can't just steamroll it like LFR or heroic dugneons. That's in terms of difficulty, in terms of mechanics, there should be a good amount of interesting, well flowing mechanics and on that front they've been great since Throne of Thunder, but realistically there many older raids that had that, it's just that Tier 14 was meh and Tier 9 was terrible.
@@andrewbyrnes6389 There is something nice about when WoW was slower, I think that retail might need a 15-25% reduction in speed overall. I'm not struggling, but when you don't give enough time between casting spells the satisfaction of each spell doing damage is much lessened.
Yep. He's not a hard fight - just a bit of a gear/skill check because he hits hard and has a relatively tight enrage. Once people have farmed out some normal gear he'll fall over first pull consistently. Unlike Sindragosa, Putricide and Lich King who will always remain challenging fights (or rather, annoying in the case of Sindragosa - because the main 'difficulty' is raid coordination and the tanks not being annihilated by frost breath - and a bit of gear will ease those problems, but Unchained Magic will always be there ruining fun).
The real reason behind the "low" clearance rate in the first week is, with high chance, there are not that much hard progress guilds in wotlk classic. And whole ICC are mainly dmg/hps encounters. None of the old bosses are really hard if you just look at mechanics. As well, Blizzard admitted that LK were intentionally overtuned in terms of needed dps and hps. (in vanilla wotlk) The understanding of everything got better and that means the dps/hps is already higher back then, but its still kinda over tuned. I would be interested how many now have 25 hc and 10 hc down. On my server there are already plenty gdkp pugs clearing 25 hc and tons more doing 7-11 hc.
As someone who experienced Ulduar hard modes for the first time AND ICC heroic bosses for the first time, I honestly don't get the hype around Ulduar. So far, I've enjoyed the ICC bosses a lot more than I did Ulduar (where it felt like a lot of the fights was just standing there and pumping out Holy Lights, since I play a holy paladin).
uh.. as someone who has played Ulduar back in the day, I definitely remember it fondly, was thinking it's your class choice that might make your gameplay not the most rivetting ever lol. That being said, not trying to diminish your experience, playing both raids for the first time ever certainly gives you a unique and interesting perspective.
What I am worried about is the 5-30% buff we will be getting at some point. Right now, most of the heroic encounters feel challenging. Of course, some "overly" challenging, like LK himself. But me and my group will likely both grow and gear into it at some point. However, as soon as the buffs drop it will increasingly become a joke. What you have learned and mastered at 0% will be insanely boring at 30%. I really hope they will add the option of engaging the bosses pre-nerf, and maybe get another loot item as a reward. Just some incentive to continue to challenge yourself, rather than take the easy route.
@@holysecret2 I mean yea but just how wow has always been working. They nerf bosses to a point everyone can do it while the people that have put time and effort into doing the harder version, just steamroll it. What you are asking could be something for a Wrath+ server, but not official progression servers.
Progress said in an intervju that they had about 250pulls on LK hc before they felt comfortable going for world first, let this sink in boois 😅 Wich he said if i watched the video first...xD
@@Tauroi lol, Idiot. Is a boss only hard if 100 people world wide can complete it if the stars align after 500 attempts? Sounds like a shitty game experience to me. The catering to "professional" players is a large reason why WoW has became shit and dead.
They said atleast 200 pulls after the soul stone change before they knew it was killable. Very different. And a lot more than 200 in total. My guild pulled it probably 300 times and got a week 3 kill
Hey Wille, love ur content. Even im currently not playing its nice to follow the scene. You were talking about the racial bonus and horde getting more things done ingame then alliance. You have to think about the bias you are confronted with. Good players will take a bonus from the game instead of ingnoring it. Its not the bonus that makes horde accomplish more. Its just the fact that better players will shift to horde.
Honestly, seeing this makes me sad I quit classic from may to this week cz of my past toxic guild, can't wait to catch up on totc and then get into icc too! I've never played any of the old expacs at current content and I've sadly missed most of tbc too but I liked wrath for the while I played it and I can't wait for cata and hopefully someday MoP. Both expacs I never raided in but I would love to!
I wish you luck as I'm on pyrewood and just seems like there is like 5 totc runs a week and they all look for 1-2 very specific class with GS higher than makes sense.. like people wanting 1 specific item or so. It's easy to catch up with gamma dungs and emblems which might be the reason people aren't running totc much.
@@davidfilep491 thanks! I just wanna see totc cz I don't wanna gatekeep myself from wrath like I did in tbc lol. My guild still does totc runs (I think) and once I'm sick of it I'll prolly be high enough gs to go with my guilds icc or just close up with gammas Have fun too :)
Every phase of Classic in general has launched on a Thursday, at around 00:00 AM Friday morning Realm Time. Why? Because Blizzard have always hated EU players and don't want to give us an advantage over the Asian players. Even though the Asians don't even play, they just farm and sell gold.
YESSSSSSSSSS YOUR HERE AGAIN DUDEEEEEEEE CMON U MORE WILLN THEN WILLE Q.Q I LOVE UR VOICE I LOVE UR INTERPRETATIONS I LOVE UR MIND AND I LOVE HOW U EXPLAIN EVERY SINGL BIT
I feel like that on the Blood Council as melee.... even worse as wheelchair class - DK, I feel like I dont get to do anything for half of the fight, cause I cant get to bosses....
You do NOT need WeakAuras to understand Hodir! It is really simple, you have some DPS hug the fire and other DPS stack in beam... free the adds and repeat after moving to a frost patch.
@@gubunki without weak aura, how could people face roll bosses and act superior strutting around dalaran spitting on the unwashed peasants not in high end raiding gear.
The only boss I've felt like I actually needed WAs on was heroic anub. If we didn't assign healers to specific penetrating cold targets we risked people dying and slowly wiping.
I hope that Blizzard gives us a lot of time before the 5-30% buffs start. Were @11/12 HC on 25 players progressing the LK. and i dont want that to be easier..
ICC def saves Wrath a lil bit. I am really enjoying the prog of it. However, Wrath as a whole is so lazily done. ICC is great, but I don't see how it alone makes Wrath the fav expansion for so many. It's missing 2.5 phases of content...
Wrath is shit and the real end to the old formula. Started offering up way too many dopamine hits with an easy grind system for catch up gear. Wrath and Ulduar HC content is literally the only thing in the expansion that isn’t faceroll. Back in the day, we were all just blinded by the hype and the first opportunity to gear up quick with spammable content.
I liked tbc more too even though I only got to experience kara and za sadly (hoping for seasonal servers :) Wrath is nice but I don't like grinding for out of raid or raid thing here as much as in tbc and I can't wait for cata
@@dancinglight8411 Its like current Wrath and old Wrath are completely different beasts (which can be traced through patch notes) and people weren't as good as they are today.
Even though I prefer both Vanilla and TBC over Wrath overall, I can say that purely mechanically I do think that many of the Ulduar hard modes and some of the ICC bosses are up there with the best Classic mechanical boss encounters. Mimiron is always a lot of fun, Council and Algalon never stopped being challenging, Putricide, Blood Council and Lich King have become some of my favorite boss encounters as well. From a pure mechanics point of view most of Vanilla can't hold the candle to that kind of boss design. However, in terms of the world's feeling and RPG progression Vanilla is still the best, and THAT should be most of the reason you play the game, rather than only logging in for raids, which I have been mostly doing for Wrath's duration. I'm just not feeling the RPG aspect as much. Too much power creep, too much streamlining and one-sided design of certain classes, too much focus on the endgame, rather than the world and the leveling experience.
My experience exactly, same exact crap 2 weeks in a row in both 10 and 25 man with completely different groups ! Half are clickers, half don't use addons, half never use Discord, it's such a pain to "play" wih pugs. Didn't even get to see BQ, Council or Sindragosa.
first week i had 8 kill afther 9 and now this week 11 almost 12 with pug..but the last one took ppl who had experiance. so with the buff when icc gets it have to be waaay easyer even for pugs to do it
The racial bonus abilities helping in raid left a couple of expansions ago. the horde benefitted the most in terms of racial abilities because most of the classes had them. For the Alliance back in the retail days were more tailored towards pvp racials like the human's Every man for himself. Today alot of the top end players are still on the horde side (Zul'jin, Illidan, Area 52 servers for starters). I was horde all the way until the end of legion when I swapped to alliance. it was around Cata/legion timeframe that the racials didnt matter anymore and were altered by the devs to make them irrelevant for raid. If that was the case, you would have more horde than what is currently on retail.
not sure what game you played, but the pve impact of human sword/mace spec and later draenei +hit aura were easily the most poweful racial abilities this game has ever seen, and that's not counting fear ward in vanilla.
@@GamingDualities in wrath yes. In classic era and tbc? No. Alliance is the superior pve faction for both eras. Horde has no answer to the human racials, dwarf priest fear ward in classic and Draenei group hit racial in tbc. It only equalized in wrath.
Obviously it seemed harder theres no buff which at the time was meant to be impossible the fight is technically overtuned because mechanically its got very little to deal with
Due to it being so hard, my semi hardcore causal 2 day a week guild started doing 3 -4 days a week for progression and 10 man icc. Felt like a job and wasn’t haven’t fun anymore so I quit. Harder does not equal better
@@TheZeagon wasn’t just the extra raid days. The magic felt gone for me. Wrath was so raid loggy you know?? Just not fun anymore, so just hardcore now, that’s always fun
It's a hard raid, But easy for the top 1%. If it were truly easy then everyone would just be smashing heroic 25 in pugs like it was phase 1 naxx. I barely see pugs for normal and what pugs i do see have class + GS requirements. Easy raids don't care about GS or class, the added dps are just there to make it go by faster.
It wouldnt be so easy (LK 25 hc) If there werent endless of testing on him @ PTR. They should have let people test him for a limited time just as they do on retail. But it's classic after all, things has been done before..
@@havtor007 Most servers weren't actually. Even top 5-10 guilds on many servers weren't getting shit done even with 30% buff. On my server there was 1 guild who transfered that was good. The rest was still disbanding guilds and reforming guilds with the same toxic 50-100 people and still failing. So you're probably just talking shit. :)
@@SevenTheMisgiven I was on the same server as Paragon. (if you know you know) It might have been the server but we for sure had pug runs doing it before it hit 30% Considered i killed the Litch king in a pug
Now that it is said and done. I don'r regret quitting Classic while in vanilla still. I was kind of curious if I would regret not doing ICC, and I'm not. Glad I have these videos to keep up with the goings on though.
@@natey2290 WoW was a large part of my adulthood. Just because I maintain a passing interest in how its going isn't some shocker. I just genuinely wasn't having fun anymore, and I see no reason to think anything changed.
If you're not raiding at least three times a week you'll struggle to down Lich King for a few more weeks. He takes a lot of practice. People who say its easy are most likely people who raid more then the average and went on the PTR. Some fights really do highlight problem players. My guild finally found out one of the DPS has been refusing to use Weakauras the entire time when he royally messed up on Blood Queen repeatedly. People who can't dodge mechanics are dying constantly. People keep being caught tunnelling the boss when they should be dealing with mechanics. Honestly, its making me look forward to Cata more - so we can down scale to 10 man and get rid of a few people who really are letting the team down over and over again.
Never used any addons but recount and DBM, and only used DBM sparingly. Normals, heroics, even some mythic. They're just not necessary. There's a few fights scattered across the years that DBM helps make easier because of the speed of it's reactions, but other than that I simply haven't found them to be anything more than a distraction.
@@mcdick1621 You don't, but there's a popular weakaura for bites that trivialises it, however it doesn't work at all unless all 25 players in the raid have it, so if someone is refusing to use WAs in general then you'll quickly find it out.
Never did ICC before, not even to go farm invincible i was just never into that. I'm surprised how easy the normal modes are and really thought lootship would be harder, but the name really makes sense now. I feel like Ulduar was more way hyped up and had a better raid design. ICC kind of feels weird because youre not really walking up the citadel you just teleport to certain areas.
it doesnt feel like much of a citadel does it ? I was also quite disappointed back in the day, I was expecting waves of difficult trash fights, hordes of undeads to fight through but it just wasnt and lootship was the dullest and most out-of-place fight in wow history. I was not impressed with ICC and I was so ready to be blown away by my favorite WoW lore characters, Arhas and Sindragosa.
Big difference with cata and wrath is cata gameplay being more similar to retail. As ICC is basically a Retail esc raid released in a classic gameplay game.
@@beeman4266Not even close. You're thinking of WoD. That's where mythic dungeons, raids, new models, mission tables and single player gameplay took hold.
The raid was easier than expected considering all the hype of the never been killed with the 0% buff. However I do enjoy the step up of actually having mechanics it’s not just stack up here and Zerg boss. Fun raid for once in Classic.
Why change that more are horde now? Alliance has been stronger all the way until now...balance doesnt necessarily make it better, classic is great cause its not homogonized and balanced
It's 1 mechanic on that figh that makes it the crappiest fight of history of wow, and blizzard said it themself.. Not being able to cast for minutes if you are unlucky is just meh.
My raid group got server first on Saurfang. It was gruelling to keep 25+ a solid bench online. I bloody aged and raged until we had bosses on farm. 6k gs means nothing if you can't follow mechanics.
My raid group has the server first 11/12 on 10HC and lowest 10HC LK pulls too, he’s not only rough on 25HC but on 10HC you NEED to have players that fully understand everything in the fight for 15 min. One slip up from a player and it’s a wipe. What a fucking raid man.
The people who non stop posted about how easy hlk will be on your video from 2 weeks ago are nowhere to be seen here, not a single one, weird, its almost as if the youtube comment section don't even play the game
You ever wonder about everything leading up to this point? The calls back in Cata and beyond about wanting Vanilla, wanting to "go back to when raiding was hard?" While Classic has been a wonderful time for many, many players, it quickly became an exercise in looking forward to the next content drop as raids were cleared. "Wait till AQ40, that's when raids got hard," "Wait till Burning Crusade, that's when raids really got challenging," "Oh man, wait till Ulduar!" I wonder how many people didn't enjoy the journey because they were just chasing the dragon with rose tinted glasses of what content was like BEFORE we optimized and math'd the shit out of everything.
It is easier than raids on retail for sure. I still don’t understand how adult people can’t do like 2 mechanics on some easy bosses. If you don’t understand something, just watch fatboss guide or something, it takes you like 3 minutes. How is it possible that me and my friends were better 15 years ago than many of players now, when we were literally 12-15 yo with bad internet and shitty computers, and didn’t know what half of the spells did. Many players don’t even know their rotation, is it that hard to check it on internet? I mean, don’t you want to be good, better, I naturally want to be better and it is the first thing that I check, if I am doing everything correctly to achieve the best. If you are playing just for fun and don’t care at all, don’t mess it up for others, don’t raid if you are not willing to spend few minutes to get better.
the guild that got server first on my server got h lk in 180 pulls in total. my guild currently has 60 pulls on him and got him to 50%. we still have 3.5 more raid hours this lockout so we are hoping to atleast see phase 3
Huh...some time before ICC came out I betted some classic andy LK will die in first day, he claimed he will stay standing for at least a week...and it did die in an hour, but in 2 weeks there are only 60 kills. I wonder how many of these were true progression kills, and how many are the "1k+ PTR pulls"...I would really like to see how this raid would hold against a good, organised group, but with litteraly 0 prep (so just make retail guild do it)
If you take an average cutting edge retail guild and put them in there even LK would just kinda flop over. Classic raids are just unbelievably easy and simple compared to pretty much anything on retail, the vast majority of classic players are just very very bad.
@@Pimfiino, it wouldn't. It's much more involved than the rest of classic. You need a cool down for every single infest and good healers, stacking in the right position and splitting immediately after, stun rotation, etc. Coming from someone who is about to kill HLK after 120 pulls, it's about right that it's a mid tier mythic boss. I raid led back from cata through WoD and some of those raids had 2-5 bosses with over 100 pulls on them. So it's maybe like heroic durumu, heroic paragon of the klaxxi, mythic blast furnace level.
Back in the day people were not this geared. At any rate I pugged it 7/12 yesterday with a lot of first timers. This would never happen on my old server.
@@JarrodShadowsonng Nah I don't care about your fantasy server, there were almost no healers with Valanyr and certainly not more than 1 per guild. The amount of guilds that would have multiple healers with valanyr would be countable on 1 hand and many of those healers were ''recruited'' from other servers. Meaning some servers lost a lot of their valanyr healers as well, people did not have anub 50/50 on farm so that gear was unavailable as well even to the better guilds. On some servers this was even the case for the top 1 guilds of that server. Meanwhile we have multiple guilds with multiple valanyrs per server now. If you think this is comparable you were not playing back then.
I’ve left wow after this chopper from the final boss (wod?) I guess you could still practice icc and should be prepared for any mechanic there. So why are considerably many failing there?
Ldw strategy (frost resist tank phase 2 no interrupts) came out after this that will make her one of the easier ones. Originally she and blood princes were always the last few before putri/sindy.
The heroic modes definitely have a noticable spike in damage and health. So some heroics are obviously easier than others but on an extreme arc, Saurfang normal is super easy in 10 man but you have to be prepared for heroic for example.
There are quest chains in Icecrown that change the phase of the area outside the instance, so people who have and haven't done them are in fact on different layers outside the instance.
Member of the 15th Alliance Guild to kill LK HC 25 here, it was a fantastic fight and well worth the time put in. We didn't actually pull him on PTR at all, but got stuck in immediately week 1. 92 pulls was what it took and on Wednesday we got him. One hell of a ride.
WoW Wotlk has 2 major issues: Token (P2W) and Unbalanced Servers which destroy world interaction and community. EU the biggest region still doesn't have a single balanced PvP English server.
I got Deathbringers will in my first (and a random raid) ID against 6 other players.. this really makes up for vanilla WotLK.. in which I never got it.
I remember the raw hate received by having the only caster sword from HLK on our server. We killed him a pretty decent amount of times back in the day but hot damn was it a slog learning that fight.
the numbers do not addup, gunship is 7.8k kills while rotface is 9.7k??????, um you need to kill gunship in order to even make it to rotface. Same with all the other boss's after gunship, their numbers should be same or fewer then gunship.
Part of me wishes I had played wotlk... then part of me remembers the cash shop and the wow token and I immediately remembered why despite the hype of getting to go through Ulduar again or being able to actually prog through ICC since I missed it I didn't care to in the first place.
I had alot more fun on sindy hc progression then professor hc professor can get alot of random rng that cannot be offset with more healers like sindy like the green ooze focus target getting disease on him is just annoying and almost wiping you for sure
They buffed ALOT of stuff though like you could only get 5 EOF from weekly raid in original, and 2 for daily.....plus a lot of other stuff, ppl have tier sets quick as shit.....i dunno why they did this
Why wouldnt they? The game doesnt need to be that slow of a creep when a vast majority is still going to spend a lot of time progressing. Why are you people so against people having a good time and not beating their heads against a wall?
@@rogerdodger1984 because that's how it was, and now every noob and his mom is 6k, see before you EARNED it, now it's handed to you in a week or two, you can get like 65+ eof a week now without even STEPPING into ICC
Main reason is that the raid is not going to last 1 year like it did. In addition to that, people back in the time had 2 months to gather enough emblems. It is a good change overall.
@@SevenTheMisgiven you gotta be patient cuz most pugs are looking for people with high gear score and even to link achievements that you have done it before
So as far as i can see from video 30% of Boss Mechanics are turned off Classes are tuned up and bosses are tuned down heavy Link on BQL does almost no dmg for 3 Sec Sindra cant Grip before blistering Chokings on PP dont explode just vanish from world first i could see that mobs can be ignored on lady even when they transform they do 0 dmg same thiing on lady Dark martydon is off and people still cant clear it This is not 25 HC its almost 25 normal
Is it just me or ware we kill% wrong, i know you are saying pull% but that is just shit data that doesnt really matter. Saurfang for example is 9731 kills 3201 hc which is 33% kill ratio not 14.5 that is displayed.
well with hc ratio being almost 100% from gunship it should be the same no? still useless data as kill% is enough to determine if fight is hard or not@@TriggaHappy00121213
Cata will break people for the second time it seems, especially if they release it pre-nerf. XD I wouldn't say H25 LK is retail mythic level fight, but maybe a mid-heroic.
100% it's about a mid-tier heroic boss. Most classic players don't have experience of how mental raiding in retail got. It's harder in Cata but doesn't get to near its current level until MoP, when most guilds won't clear the raid before the next patch.
Progress said they did around 200 pulls to get their first kill on ptr. Some of them raid on retail and said that it's more than the amount of pull they do for a good portion of mythic bosses.
Lich King being so difficult is the perfect capstone for Wrath. I personally think they should have made a few more bosses more difficult than they currently are, it's the 'last' actual classic raid and should be difficult.
At the time they should not have added the gunship battle to the raid. Most were salty about how it took a ''slot'' from the bosses we were promised. And many already didn't like that we only got 12 bosses in ICC.
@Milk-rn5uq I think that the number of people who parse and prog and love a challenge is far less than you think. The population crashed right after Ulduar dropped, and that's no accident. Most WoW players are the drunk Southern guy who is a hoot to play with, but think that Naxx is incredibly challenging. You make the game hard enough, and you get retail all over again - a small, anti social group of players who grind mythic keys 12 hours a day and have no fun doing it.
in the case of anything going on in classic era...the term "world first" should be somewhat reworded to reflect what actually is being achieved. Nobody got a world first last week, that title was claimed nearly 14 years ago. Usso Taunted for that title!
It's an easy boss on heroic, if your guild is not able to do it then you should feel like failures because even the worst of the worst killed this back in the day, and it's been over 40 decades since then so you have no excuse to still suck at it
