Illustration Is Not Art? 

I am 74 years old and have been painting since I was 16. When I told my mother I wanted to be a painter she told me I should be an illustrator and create a character like Holly Hobby who was first popular in the 1960's. Try as I might I could not create a cutesy character so i just kept painting...over the next 50+ years I worked as a commercial artist, illustrator, textile designer, portrait painter, etc. It was only a few years ago that I finally said " enough!" I am a painter and I will paint only that which I am inspired to paint! So now I paint Imaginary Gardens and I am happy and contented. PS I once read that NC Wyeth who's illustrations are all beautiful paintings felt like a failure because he was known only as an "illustrator" and not an "artist". How sad that labeling is still used to divide us all one way or another...

I believe I once heard, "Those that can, do. Those that can't, critique."

labels, labels, labels. The tool of the insecure - Rogue Artists = Freedom from Labels

Art is art, illustrations are art, shame on anyone who thinks otherwise!

Art is in the eyes of the beholder .👀 For me it all boils down to a Monty Python quote ," I don't know much about Art. But I know what I like."

I so appreciate this vid. I started putting myself in a box of “illustration”. The term as described here is my “art” I was putting that adjective “illustration” because I draw my pieces and then paint them with watercolor. And I was feeling a little “less than” a “real artist” so this post is fantastic 👍🏻thank u.

After watching this I have just discovered I'm not an illustrator but an artist. I have always called myself an illustrator because I draw pictures and put them into books. Not story books just art books. I have been developing my drawings and colouring them or painting them to become final pieces and I consider them to be art. Maybe my drawings are art but just the medium I used was pen or pencil? Saying this I have illustrated one book for a lady and completed 35 watercolour paintings, I called them artworks not illustrations. Random. Thanks for the conversation guys. 😁😁😁

It takes a decent amount of self confidence to be part of an artist community because those with low self confidence will see you as "competition" instead of buddy/friend. Like I've said before, most of the crappy comments I've received while set up at shows have been from people who (I later walked around and saw) were set up as fellow vendors at the same show.

Oh, I have an opinion, alright, but I'll keep most of it to myself due to the choice words involved. Back in the day, when I had more kids than time or money, I was told at the end of a holiday party where my gifts had been extremely well received, "Too bad you didn't get into art like S (my former husband), and you're just a crafter." Joke's on her tho, as S is one of my biggest supporters, even now. He frequently brings over supplies and hangs out to Make Art! :D

This is one of the first comments I got as a young adult trying to make connections with other artists in our local community. This woman did wildlife paintings and when I showed her my work, she immediately huffed at me "Well, that's not art!" Talk about feeling like you were just squashed under her shoe. But I still encounter this attitude in our community. If you are not making "contemporary " , First Nations, or stuff like the Group of 7, the art community here doesn't acknowledge you. So, thank heavens, nowadays there's the Net and I can find people more of my tribe. Love you guys and thanks for what you do. 💖🙏

I am so with you Klee, my art world growing up was all picture books as well and wow there are so many very beautifully illustrated books out there! I always considered illustration art, in fact I wanted to become an illustrator but it ended up not being my path. Funny thing is I got into doing another type of art that there is a bit of struggle to define as art to some snobbish types but ... well that’s their myopic problem. Being sensitive though it is hard to not feel demeaned and hurt from those kind of comments. We do what we love to do and hope to leave something beautiful in this world that others will enjoy. That is Art.

I think it’s fantastic that you are standing up for your patrons and fellow artists. It makes no sense to me to put anyone down, ever. That said, I see it a bit differently but I don’t think I have strong emotions tied to the subject. I began as an Art Therapist and I’m a mostly self-taught artist. I would never say an illustrator isn’t an artist, but the distinction between illustration and commercial art and fine art-while it overlaps- is just information in my mind. If a person primarily does illustrations, commercial art or decorative art, they can certainly use creativity, imagination and artistic skill. I see the difference as one of intent, and possibly the maturity and evolution of the artist IF they aspire to present as a fine artist. I do see differences, but it doesn’t mean someone isn’t an artist. Good conversation... I will keep pondering. I don’t view “fine art” as stuffy, traditional, or only “oil paintings”... etc. I see art that is created with the purpose of mass production, to sell a product, or perhaps wouldn’t be appropriate to sign as the artist, or is a rendering of something without necessarily being connected to the artist personally, or to a deeper vision or body of work... as art, but not necessarily “fine art.” There will always be exceptions and some overlap, but also being a former gallery owner and curator, if a person is working on their technical skill -or say, they do photography for a portrait studio or a newspaper, but they aspire to do “fine art photography”.. it might help if they understand the distinction. I would see illustrators in a similar vein to a photographer that is commercial or a photojournalist. So to make the transition, I think it really comes down to intent, and vision and if the artist’s vision is the PRIMARY driving force behind an original work. I took my prerequisite painting classes years ago at Herron School of Art and I always had fascinating conversations with a very talented classmate. She was an amazing illustrator and her drawing/rendering skills were incredible and far surpassed mine, but she would always chat with me after critiques about my work, which was much more raw but admittedly much more original. We admired each other. At that time, I didn’t feel confident to identify as an artist because I equated art with a childhood friend who was a gifted illustrator and I simply couldn’t render a subject in the way he could. I came to understand that the creative, original voice of the artist is key. If someone hopes to exhibit or cares to do “fine art” vs commercial work, I think the key is to create the work from a full intent to express the artist’s vision and for appreciation only. That’s all it really means to me. Most likely a successful working artist will have a better shot making a living if they don’t focus on “fine art”... or at least not exclusively. I have large scale paintings now but I’d love to learn to create more practical art or art that I can better predict the outcome or duplicate because I’d like to eat and that would make it easier.. but that’s not my strength. To really discover one’s own artistic voice or to create a coherent body of work-well, it’s hard enough as it is, I think it would be really difficult if other people/voices/money/deadlines/preconceived end results are in the mix. (I avoid commissions for this reason.) Just another perspective.. But I don’t think any media should be excluded, including some that are considered more craft/artisan. I love things like crocheted fiber sculptures, fine art quilts, etc. Similarly, a seamstress might be very talented but working from a pattern is not quite the same as creating an avant-garde design. The process and emphasis on creative originality is a factor too. Anyway... I don’t mean to disrespect anyone. I love all the arts.

It’s gate keeping pure and simple! I love klee’s response “your mums an illustration!”. I always felt a bit less than coz my art has always been cute little characters I created and I let that stop me until last year at 39 I realised my art IS art and has a right to exist! now I’m not going to let anyone stop me or tell me my arts not art ever again!

This is so interesting. My father taught Art at a highschool, and when he could, he took us to see the student Art. He talked about the art in our picture books as Art, the books chosen because they had good art in them. So I grew up, seeing paintings on walls in museums as simply Art that wasn't in a storybook, but still had stories to tell. The Sistine Chapel ceiling is a story, done in paint, but still story art...Art is art is Art is art... until the end of the story😏

Amen and let it be so. One of the best shows I've seen at our Art Museum was of Winslow Homer's etchings for newspaper publication during the civil war. Absolutely fine art. For me concerning my own art, the buyer can call it anything they want, they can call it Bob if they wish, as long as the checks don't bounce.

I've been watching your videos for nearly a week on loop since I damaged my wrist and am out of action. I absolutely love them all and love Klees input! I love it when she's not sat in the background. No one puts Klee in the corner 😊

Wait - So... All those Old Masters who did paintings of Bible stories weren't fine artists? The Sistine Chapel is "just" illustration? Yeah... my thoughts on these arguments go like these examples: 1) "Omg, could you think of anything stupider to say?" 2) "Please stop talking." 3) "Aren't there any elevator shafts around here that I can hurl myself into to get out of this conversation?" PS: I love the paint on your blazer, Rafi. It looks very spring-like. ;) PPS: Klee, you are way too permissive and are clearly personally responsible for the de-evolution of art in modern society. You forgot that Real Art requires not just a canvas tacked, not stapled, on hand-hewn stretchers, but also that the canvas must be unbleached Irish linen and the gesso must be made with hide glue from Dutch lop-eared rabbits no more than 1.75 years old. And you didn't even mention brushes, for crying out loud. Bristles, Klee. Bristles. What are the bristles made of? What metal is the ferrule made of? Does the artist even know what a "ferrule" is? Sheesh.

Illustration is totally art! I'm both an illustrator and a fine artist, so I can verify ;) And I've also seen the shade thrown between fine artists and "commercial artists" of all types. It's a shame, really.

Wow, this is wild! I am both an Illustrator and an Artist, I create things! People tell me what they want and I bring it to life XD As an artist, I feel that whatever you create is art! People need to stop controlling what art is suppose to be, art is art!! Also great video btw, I really enjoy your take on these topics!

Illustrations in the past have become fine art in the present to collectors and to most people. To comment to some who would say to me “it is not fine art only an illustration” I would respond back “illustration is fine art so thank you”❤️ great rant Rafi! Makers make and that is a fine art!

Can we just do away with the term 'fine art?' Isn't it enough to be an artist regardless of the medium? I was introduced to a Zoom art class last year as "Samantha used to do photography but now she is an artist." I did speak up and say, "To be clear, I've always been an artist," but I was mortified. I filed that under *Stuff* 'Artist's Say in my iPhone notes LOL.

Sadly, within the fields of art, meanness & psychopathy & gaslighting are frequent tools of destruction... It's why I love the environment Rafi & Klee focus on creating, nourishing and maintaining a healthy respectful inspiring environment for artists to grow INto themselves as artists etc.... Thank you for discussing this so passionately and convincingly

People LOVE to label, whether it is people or things. Invariably, it is used to place someone or something in a box that they have created to weigh someone down with their own personal self-hate and negativity. This is a gift of the ignorant, powerless and the envious. I call such things like labels, along with unhelpful advise, a sugar-coated spear. When defending yourself from such labels or advise, a person confronted will usually respond with "I didn't mean anything by it" or "It is for your own good." Understand that they are simply projecting their own insecurity onto you or to someone else. And then go do whatever you do with love and joy.

When I first went to an art museum I thought wow. All those pictures. I left there wanting to draw. Not to have my drawings in a museum, or an art gallery. I just wanted to create shapes, and shoot photographs. I like every type of drawings, designs, sketches, colorings, anything that is abstract, geometrical. I like them all, and everything looks like art to me. Everything has value, and importance to me. I love art.

I love that you tackled this subject :-) I am not an illustrator, yes, I enjoy drawing and I hope one day (& enough time) to get some illustrations out into the world. My core business is paper. Many years ago I participated (I was also on the organising committee) in an art festival with my handmade paper, papier mache bowls, cards, mixed media journals, etc. I was totally blown away when one of the well-known fine artists approached me and asked me why I was participating in the ART festival, as I clearly was not an artist since I hadn't studied fine art at university for a number of years!!! To say that this completely knocked my confidence at the time is an understatement. I was just starting out & I seriously questioned what I was actually doing there. The one positive I can take from this experience is that, at the end of the day, she didn't sell anything & I did pretty well ;-) I have a really supportive husband & he has gone a long way towards building me up & getting me through. Here I am 15 years later still playing with paper, creating & proud to call myself an artist. *** Love you guys ***

The gatekeepers of art hate having their exclusive walls torn down. The main problem with art that was created for magazines etc, is that often they were made quickly and not with longevity in mind and are crumbling, which is a shame, but so are some old masters' paintings. I think some magazine/book art is a lot more dynamic than 'fine' art. They pushed the boundaries of composition a lot more and that has influenced 'fine' art over the years.

I was working toward an art degree. The amount of diversity in ideas and "rules" was amazing. Wayne Thiebaud lectured not about his pop art paintings, but his pen and ink drawings of the European vacation he had just taken. He loved the line, and vacationing without a camera. Fred Dalkey taught portraiture and figure work. Learned a lot about Conté crayons and toothed paper from him. He stressed scribbling and shading and despised the line as a tool for the artist. "Lines do not exist in nature!" The Nameless Witch taught a lot of courses, and taught them at all the local colleges and universities. Mostly she lectured her opinions as the word of God, and her God was Picasso. In her world the only fine arts were oil painting and sculpture. Water color was cheap shit to do color studies with. Acrylic paint was only for painting houses. Study photography if you want realism. She also despised ink and illustrators. I found her classes a tough row to hoe for an open-minded colorblind realist that lived in ink and acrylic. Weirdly, I didn’t learn a lot about art there. I learned that people love labels. People, especially artists, make their own rules and reality. Many get pissed if you don’t live by their rules. As an artist, be ready to be labeled by others. Be ready to create your own labels. Be ready to defend your art, or just tell people to piss off. Your choice. Be ready to redefine your own labels at a moment’s notice. Creating and recreating yourself maybe the world’s greatest feat of self-expression and creativity.

This made me chuckle. Many moons ago when I did my degree, labelled a crafts degree (wood, metal, ceramics and plastics) I was told my work was too fine art to be considered craft. Yet the fine art department told me my work was too craft to be considered fine art 🤦🏼‍♀️ 😂😂😂

I took one of my detailed watercolors of tropical birds from my time spent in the jungles of Honduras as a PC volunteer into an art class I took some time ago, was told I'd be a great illustrator.....my classmates all grinned at the obvious invalidation, the prof didn't seem to like me from then on.....

This was a great subject for me right now 🙏. Perfect as I was putting myself into a category of illustration and then feeling a bit “less than a ‘real’ artist”. Only because I draw my piece first and then I paint it/watercolor. I’m just an artist. I think that’s the only box I’m gonna put on myself and my art. So thank you!😍

If you’re doing something creative REGARDLESS OF WHAT MIDIUM YOU’RE USING you’re an artist, no IF’s, AND’s, or BUT’s, about it!!!!!! If ANYONE tells you otherwise, DO NOT LISTEN TO THEM AND WALK AWAY!!!!!!

I'm so glad I had the opportunity to impart that message to art students for a few years: there is no hierarchy in art, illustration isn't inferior to fine art. It's just in the mind of the beholder. Unless they're paying your bills, never mind the beholder's opinion of art categories.

Good video! I have always been surprised that this topic is discussed so often. I remember a discussion about what art is or is not during a field trip to a gallery - the gallerist was the one who posed the question and they had their own very narrow definiton of art. Everyone else also had their very own very narrow definition of art. It was really dumb. And I was just standing there thinking: who the f*** cares? Why are people so set on defining art and restricting it with rules and made up values of what is better or more important? It's all art, it's all creative work, ditch the definitions and just do whatever your creativity compells you to! Chasing definitions is just a waste of time... or maybe procrastination. I often get the sense these people have realized the infinite potential of creativity and are scared of it. They have seen infinity and went like: "nope, this is wrong, we're going to put some of this in neatly defined little boxes, attach a specific worth to it and pretend the rest of it is smelly garbage, because it confuses us and doesn't even fit in the boxes." Cowards! That's how I imagine it anyway, lol.

Yeah, this is something that's been following me around since 1988. If I bring paintings into a show and the curator tries to tell me I'm an illustrator, I take that to mean they're not particularly skilled and have developed a complex about it. I do occasionally illustrate, but the vast majority of my work is painted knowing it's going up on a wall somewhere. This is something they've been trying to pin on people generations. They used to do it to Robert Williams. I don't think he was able to start doing legit shows until the 70s and 80s because of it. And of course he started Juxtapoz and went on to help define what fine art is today. These days the line between illustration and painting is so blurred that I don't know why people are still making the argument.

Thanks for bribing this up. I was a graphic designer and illustrator for 30 years before becoming a full time artist. In my opinion it takes more artistic talent to do good illustration than it does for my fine art. I really had to dig deep to creatively portray the message I was trying to get across. Illustration also requires a really broad set of skills that I don’t always need for my fine art. I had to be better than proficient with every kind of computer software you can think of. Those are tools that are useless without some artistic talent. I work in watercolor with paintbrushes on paper now but all those years making illustrations on the computer enhance my artistic skill. I’m proud to be called an illustrator. In my opinion that’s a higher compliment that being called an artist. And I can assure you that it has helped me in my business because the commission projects just keep rolling in.

This isn't new. Unfortunately I cannot recall the artist but I remember viewing a wonderful piece recovered from the artists attic in a museum. While he did do some images specifically for commercial products (1800s-1900s), some of which were also displayed in the art museum, he also had several pieces on display that were art for art's sake. One of the things I remember most though was the comments of his daughter who wanted "to be a real artist, not an illustrator like" her father. Thus bringing the sense of shame and relegation of these beautiful paintings to a dusty attic to become damaged by heat and time.

Very interesting video yet again Rafi. And I must say you're a very lucky man to have a wife who has her own well thought out ideas and opinions. You seem to be very well matched and happy together. Mind you it could all be an act and you both fight like cat and dog when nobody's looking. Don't worry, I'm just toying with your incredulity. Norman Rockwell's work is brilliant whatever anyone says ! I love the way he tells a story in one picture that makes me smile or even laugh out loud. His characters interact with each other. Typically a young girl about 15 is a baby sitter. She's lumbered with a beautiful baby going red in the face and screaming his head off. The girl's at her wits end. We see that the dummy has been tried and now lies discarded along with the bottle of milk with the teat on it. She's in a situation that most parents have found themselves in when they also had young babies to look after. So as I look at that painting it triggers all kinds of emotions connected to exactly that kind of situation. I think it's fair to say he NEVER produced a poor piece. Everyone of them is a masterpiece and to cap it all off he was a master of his craft. The quality of his painting was excellent. I defy anyone to say he wasn't a brilliant artist. Compared to some of the total shite we sometimes stumble on he's a bloody genius. He was a perfectionist. He'd go over a painting again and again to correct something he perceived as a blemish. Yet in his private life he wasn't a happy camper. I think he suffered from depression. But never mind he brought good to the world On a different note today I met a guy who came from Bangkok to see me about a couple of paintings he needs. He explained that he wanted a couple of paintings of the Buddha statue that was blown to hell in Bamiyan in Afghanistan by the Taliban about twenty years ago. He told me he'd already completed a thirty foot high statue that replicated the state of the damage of the statue before it was blown up by the Taliban. About 1850 a Brit made a pencil sketch of the 55 metre high statue but that sketch showed that the statue had already been attacked years before and that the right leg was missing from the knee down. There was also some other damage done by persons unknown. Anyway he made the new 30 foot high statue here in Thailand and it looks fine to me. But then he explained that many Buddhists didn't like it simply because part of it's leg was missing. So now I've got the job of inventing detail on the stature, so that the Thai's like it. What a job ! Oh and he's already spent a fortune on diamonds and rubies so that he can decorate the face of the Buddha on certain days of the year. He's about 85 years old and he arrived from Bangkok in a Bangkok Taxi. Bangkok is about 100 miles from Ban Chang where I live. Apparently he uses the same taxis all the time. Yes he's about 85, slim built, quick witted and determined to get everything sorted as quickly as possible. So every day's full of surprises Last but not least The other day I bought a box of four custard tarts. I ate one and left the other three in the box. A few hours later I decided to eat another one. But I was too late. An army of tiny ants had invaded the box. So I had a brain wave. I'll put the custard tart in my microwave oven for about three seconds. That should really piss them off and they'll all run away, leaving me with a nice custard tart. What's wrong with that ? What could possibly go wrong ??? Yes, after three seconds I removed the custard tart from the microwave and yes they all ran like hell to get away. That left me with the custard tart which I then ate immediately and washed it down with a nice hot cup of tea. About five minutes later one side of my mouth was on fire !!! Yes, I'd pissed off the ants and they ran away. That worked fine. BUT the ants spew out acid when they're attacked or angry and that's exactly what they must have done. The custard tart must have been covered in the ant's very acidic venom. My lips swelled up like I'd had plastic surgery and that lasted about three days. So the ants had the last laugh after all. You couldn't make any of this up could you ? But anyway tomorrow's a brand new day and I'm still standing, just like Elton John's song ! Hope you found this interesting. Kind regards to you both and all your viewers - Chris in Thailand go2ssff@gmail.com

The distinction between illustrator and fine artist is a very necessary one for commission work, because a lot of fine artists - myself included - just aren't skilled enough to get illustration work. An illustrator can be expected to paint or draw *anything* realistically, where as a fine artist is expected to create only what they're good at, and often within a very narrow range of subject and genre. TBH, I would be complimented if someone called me an illustrator, because it means they think I'm much better than I actually am. A great many impressionist painters couldn't manage to reproduce a Normal Rockwell.

Walter Schnackenberg is one of my favorite artists and he's is considered by many to be an illustrator. I don't make the distinction.

my favorite thing is looking at the old masters and seeing HOW BAD THEIR PROPORTIONS ARE!!!! I LOVE IT

I have to say I make a distinction art and Fine Art by now that goes "Fine Art is currently bananas taped to walls and stuff like that" and I'm okay with most of the stuff I look at and love to not be considered Fine Art. Generally I feel like Art is in the eye of the beholder. I don't care if someone else considers what I do Art.

Wow, huge flashback. This was a major running theme back when I was in college, majoring in studio art--I think I still have PTSD from those 4 years. "Fine Art" is done for the sake of ART, "commercial art" is done for MONEY, so Fine Art was definitely more culturally significant, a higher calling than a mere illustrator (how dare they, lol, driven by the measly dollar-!). Oil Painting was the "culmination" of Fine Art, drawing/watercolor --not to mention colored pencils, which were becoming popular--the lowest of Fine Art. "3-D Art"/Sculpture COULD be Fine Art, but beware.... if it crossed into jewelry, soft sculpture, fiber... it was "craft." Craft was the lowest of the low. God forbid you got accused of craft. Man, I hope art professors are teaching a different mentality now--!

I worked as a contractor for a big publisher for 8 years. We made advertising for various U.S. publications, about 15 of us working together in an office environment. Everything was done in Photoshop and Illustrator, cmyk and spot color. 50 to 70 ads per week was my average. Each of us were referred to as "Artists" by the publishers and the owners. A few of my co-workers were definitely ..."Fine". We were actually designers. "Make this ad this size but... better. You will get paid if they like it." A really fun job, but the ad loads varied a lot. Some week 20, some weeks all you can do. Bonus, I accumulated about 860 fonts over the years. :D

We talked about some of the same things that you guys talked about in art college like the end of art with photography, the urinal, the can. There was a long talk in philosophy class about "what is art". Someone said "everything is art" and the teacher countered with "then why is it not taught here [at an art school]." We didn't really get to a definitive conclusion except for it being a way of communication or expression. At my college, the majors were interior design, illustration, fine arts, graphic design, and photography. They're listed separately, but every single one of them is under art.

Another thing that I did before I became a music producer too was this. I researched all types of music. I came across noise music, industrial music, music that had no rythm like drone music, atmospheric music. I was filled with joy, because I learned a lot about everything. Maybe some people should research everything before they say what art is, or should be. Research is everything.

Art is art is art. If your buyer prefers archival to the core and utterly traditional then that's their preference. Everyone is free to have what they want. It's just a preference. It's all opinion and everyone has their opinions. Let them have their opinions and move on. What other people think is none of my business, I always say. Sometimes I enjoy playing with-in tight rules and other times I do whatever. It's all part of the fun. I love that I allow myself to be able to do it all.

I agree totally. The term is the name of a category, not a measure of the "artiness" of a creation. The distinction here is between 'craft' and 'art' . Craft is skill without creativity. "Art" is craft skills used as tools by creativity to make something new, something different. The artist wants craft skills, these are the physical and intellectual tools that they employ when being 'creative'. But you don't really need them on a basic level. That is why children can make such vivid artistic creations (and why Picasso wanted to re-learn how to paint like a child) when they have almost no formal 'skills' . Children are almost all 'creative output' with almost no craft skills. When 'illustration' work is trade work, following a formula or technique without creative input, then it is not art until someone makes it art. So the Creative can make an illustration and then apply creativity to it, EVEN IF IT IS JUST AN IDEA, and now it is 'art'. The real insult is calling a creative person a 'mere craftsman' . Just as The Trades looks down on creativity. The goal of The Trades is to reproduce the same work perfectly every time. Of course some creativity can creep in, but that is not the point. The point is that it does not matter what the label is. Once a creative person applies creativity or imagination to anything, that thing is new and it is art. Rafi creates something new. He's made art. It sells. He's richer. An image of that thing appears in a magazine. Now it's an illustration. An old granny lines her birdcage with the magazine and then later puts it in recycling. It's compost. Guess what? The original artwork remains unchanged. ART IS IMMUTABLE. Once let into this world the thing is the thing is the thing, regardless of anyone else's ideas. Art is immutable. Neolithic cave drawings were art 40,000 years ago and they were always art and they are still art today. Art is immutable.

I also know people who bag on abstract art...as if it's a bad thing. Abstract art is my jam! It's my go to for most anything creative.

The did I got when submitting mosaics in some competitions…you could see the blue noses turn up at the affront to “fine art” painters…. So glad to be encouraged here and get back to creating!

This has been a commonly held idea for a long time. I first heard this back in high school from my art teacher who did not regard illustration in the same status as "fine art".

Great stuff! There are always the self appointed elite snobs who try to put others down! At the end of the day, art is art in its various forms! My fine art is a combination of photography and digital artistry. None of my customers have any complaints about that! 🙂

I went to art school in the late 70's. My freshman year in an art history class we had to do a research paper on an artist. I did mine on Norman Rockwell. My instructor wrote D- on my paper and then changed it to a B-. It was well written, but his opinion was that he wasn't an artist he was an illustrator. If you've ever seen one of Rockwell paintings in person, you KNOW he was an artist! There was a big divide between fine art (conceptual art) and anything you got paid (commercial art) for at the school. We were art hos, lol. Also, no pottery or jewelry making. Nothing utilitarian.

Soooooooo agreeing with you two. Splitting hairs to put someone else down. I’ve taken the college level drawing class; life drawing; watercolor class. Yet when I draw, my drawings always seem to have “lines”; often end up looking like a “cartoon, without shading. I know how to shade, but would rather not throw shade on someone else’s work. It doesn’t make it any less “art” to me.

Rafi, I love your videos and rants and this was a great one, but I gotta say that Klee's rant made this video! I was falling over laughing at the explanation of the specifics of what qualifies as fine art. Daylight savings be damned! LOL! Y'all rock!!!

Ya'll can say "up yours" in the nicest way! I say let's just "moon the haters" MOON 'EM, I SAY! (edited for Youtubian sensibilities). Thank you very m;uch.

I'm not a Dali fan. But his tarot deck is his most beautiful work, and is illustration . Right? Was William Blake an illustrator? Some illustration is better than lots of fine art. In the end, Picasso was a doodler. Lol!

👍👍 If you really want a reaction do a video on 'Is Pour Painting Real Art?" LOL! Have you seen people do pour painting? It looks easy but it is not. Some of them make some beautiful paintings. Or are they paintings? LOL! James 😁

What?? Rafi has an opinion?? Oh my stars that intro 😂. It’s entirely hilarious to me that people spend time even discussing this topic... I mean, could we all check our hearts please? This comes from that place of pride and comparison. No matter your art medium or method- it’s far more beautiful w humility! Thanks for this video guys- Klee, I LOVE ur sense of humor. Ohhh the sarcasm! Blessings to you as always!! 😘😍🥰🥸

Wow! This just opened up my eyes in my mind as far as terminology. I was actually using the wrong term when it comes to my own art. As a self-taught artist those things can get cross lined. And just the awareness of the definition of a word gives me a whole new understanding. I was calling some of my pieces “illustrations” whenever it was done in another medium other than paint on a surface. I appreciate the learning lesson here to give me the freedom to acknowledge my art for what it is: art. Thank you guys for your awesome content! 💕

I think there are a lot of different categories of art, I do think Fine Art is one of these categories, although I can't really precisely define it, but I don't think that fine art is "better" than other forms. I also think there is overlap between categories.

People get so hung up on categorizing everything. Any person who wants to discuss labels and terminology rather than simply APPRECIATING a piece of art is not someone I am going to listen to OR waste my time debating with.

Oh, guys... I admire you so much! Nice talk! Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I respect and appreciate you guys point of view on this topic. Thanks for sharing! All the best.

As a digital 'artist' (😲 yes I did, I called myself an artist). It took me a wee bit to actually feel comfortable saying that, because I felt like I was cheating. I am fascinated by people who are skilled at drawing and painting (my father was a commercial artist way back when and very good at drawing) and I have always wished I could put to paper / canvas / wall or any other surface upon which you can apply art, as well as he could. I just am not happy with the results when I do. But I discovered something that can help me to express myself in a way I am very happy, dare I say excited, with. I use my camera to photograph people or places then take them into photoshop and finagle the heck out of them to create my art. I usually plan the look I want to achieve, make sure everyone helping me (models, hmuas, fellow photogs and occasionally additional digital artists) know what it is I am looking for. Then I complete the look by adding my finishing touches. And sometimes there is no assistance from others. It's all me, right down to the model. When it's all said and done I love what I do and what I create, and for me that's enough. I call myself an artist because I love to create and I am good at it. If someone tells me I am not an artist because I photograph and use Photoshop, or because I rely on the help of others that is fine. I chalk it up to it being because my art is not for them. But it is for me! It makes me feel good and that is what is important!

I have been some variety of illustrator for many years, and not surprisingly, yeah, I agree with you. Much of the work of the "Old Masters" that virtually no one would think to call "not art" was either commission or illustration. I do think there is an important distinction between the experience and result of being directed on an art project (commission or illustration, or what have you), and doing something completely on your own as personal work, but both are art. Most times, an illustrator will be putting at least some amount of themselves (their own ideas, whims etc) into an illustration anyway; it's almost impossible not to. Even if you are working for the strictest of control freaks, the illustrator is going to be making some choices on how they think it's best to execute the client's vision, if only in the technique, application of brush strokes, etc.

This discussion made me smile because the same discussion is going on on my side of the fence. This isn't textile art, this is craft ... the same nine yards ... people feel the need label and as soon as the label is there, lets fight over things ... what would happen if we all got in the habit of non-labeling? Probably a too big of step for mankind ... :-))

You no what they say about opinions and butts everyone has one . I was being as nice as I could be in that statement . I have heard all kinds of statements made about my creations over my 60 plus years of creating. I let it pass through one ear and out the other because I am not a taco because I have been told everyone likes tacos . Art is Art no matter what form . Once again love your videos keep up the great work

This reminds me of people that claim the only valid art for the modern age is "conceptual", and that painting is dead because everything that can be done with paint has already been done. Makes my head hurt. I always say that if I haven't done it it hasn't all been done.

Sing it Brother and Sister Amen!!! Let's help lift each other up!

We used to have an annual charity art auction in my city. I tried to donate (!) a piece I made. It was all hand-made, designed by me, I made the frame too. But it was EMBROIDERY!! They tried to give me a hard time, saying it was CRAFT, not ART. But I (uncharacteristically) bullied my way into it. The next year I showed up with a hand-made teddy-bear, which was also an original design and pattern. This time they just let me in. Nowadays "fabric art" is a thing. Maybe it should be whether you designed it, and not depend on what medium it is. I think the art/craft thing is worse than the art/illustration rift.

The 1 explicit rule of fine art as described by Klee was the best part of the video! :P Satyavachan! (So True) :P

"has he faced the arena?"...Facing the Arena...nice...TO THE T-SHIRTS!!!

thankyou for your passion- I mean that sincerely. You guys are great!

You bet! You are right! Illustrations also can be hugely creative and inspiring for everybody. Why do we always have to put each other down? Maybe because art is so subjective, it’ gets subjected to snobbery- and cliquishness. Art competitions foster that too in my opinion.

Illustration is art / fine art is art - art is art / Hi Rafi and Klee 😊 I’ve not been here in awhile / apologies but you both rock 🙏

Ooow just to add - my favourite author Beatrix Potter “illustrated” her own books but was actually known for creating “fine art, botanical art etc ” 😊

People come up with the weirdest things to discredit others it seems.

I look at illustrations when I'm putting a nail gun back together. I see a perfectly thrown spiral 50 yard down the field as a work of art, So I guess I know nothing about art. Impressionists, abstract artist had the same issues as they started coming out. art is art. The old masters used what was available to them, no mater how toxic it might have been. I believe they would have love the amount of stuff we now have at our disposal, They might have even used stuff from the craft section at Walmart.

Wow I think I have heard it all now. lol Honestly some illustrations in books are beautiful pieces of art work in my eyes. We could even make it more complicated if we say the master pieces that are now in books about art are not longer fine art. Now they too are illustrations. We just don't need to do this to each other.

An illustration is a visual representation of a non visual concept, typically created for hire and reproduction. Toulouse Lautrec’s posters, for example. Fine art isn’t about why a piece was done or how it was done. The term “Fine art” has to do with its perceived monetary value and not the art itself. Think of it this way, people say the difference between a boat and a ship is value. If you can afford to buy it, it’s a boat. If you can’t, it’s a ship. Doesn’t matter what the craft looks like, the quality of construction or why it was made. Fine art is just art you can’t afford to own. Everything else is just art. I like for people to own my art so I’m perfectly ok with it not being fine art. It’s it’s all art, folks. So my art can be “fine” after I’m dead. But until then it is Art.

Norman Rockwell, NC Wyeth.... both were illustrators and very great artists....🤔

Dad fought me tooth and nail over doing art. Said it was 'worthless' and that I'd starve to death trying it. I then had to explain to him how companies pay BILLIONS of dollars annually for advertising art. Someone has to design those cereal boxes us kids liked and begged them to buy it for us, lol.

I think we all need to be more aware that art boundaries and pidgeon-holes are breaking down at a faster pace than ever due to the social media and the assorted marketing advice which chases/entices the consumers. I find it a sad state, though, when fellow artists turn on each other in this day and age when they are CLEARLY aware that ART IS inclusive. I think we still need some style distinctions, but more to assist the consumer making choices or for the artist who chooses to be known in a specific way. My life rule is to always be kind. My mother's rule is to keep your mouth shut if you don't have anything nice to say. A good artists rule is to not blurt out advice that wasn't asked for. (But if you just can't control the impulse, do it kindly.) So sorry the Rogue you spoke of felt denigrated. SO NOT COOL!

I have missed hearing you tell it like it is.. Rock on you two🤓✌️.. Hope life is great for y'all ..

Art's everywhere. I've seen master pieces on paper backs, comic books, the sides of freight cars...🙂

OOooooo yes. Aside from clay modelling and painting, I'm also a graphic's designer.... Recently I made a really cool magical greenhouse ART =D and submitted it for an online show, I quote "every technique and type of Art is welcome"... A person leading the show just sent me a message saying.. No. And I'm here like...which century do we live in?? And I'm so proud of this piece, it's my best work so far. But hey, sure, I'll skip a show with those kind of people and wish them good luck.

I agree! You are very inspiring, Namaste! 💜

long, long ago in my collage days I was an Open art Major so was taking both illustration and fine art painting. The teacher from both classes said That's not fine art that is illustration and the other said that is not illustration that is fine art. That is when I came to the conclusion that others opinions should not override your own. I thought that putting labels on Art has passed. It is ridiculous just like putting labels on people who create art. The world needs to stop trying to put people and what they do into nice neat little boxes tied up with a pretty little bow. I am an artist who works in many media. What it is created for has no bearing on the quality and appeal it will have for the intended audience.

Such a great subject. When I was younger, I struggled with it. Now I just find it funny that people argue the point. I totally agree, Rafi and Klee. It is wack. Hense-forth it could be argued that the Sistine Chapel ceiling was masterfully illustrated by Michelangelo. Stop drawing lines in the sand to make yourself feel more important, people, it is all art.

Norman Rockwell was my first coffee table book of art. I love him. I am thinking that the people that come up with all these definitions are not "artists"

I agree with you. It's all art. (the fight between "commercial art" of which illustration is part - and "fine art" comes from the fine art schools that teach that their way is the elite way and "commercial art" is *selling out*... being not supposedly true to your own artistic voice. Which is bullshit in and of itself.) It's all art. :) And we all deserve to make a living.

"They've stopped arguing arduously about commercial art vs. fine art, SOMEBODY THROW SOME SHADE AT AN ILLUSTRATOR!" 🤣 "I thought illustration was safe from the it's-not-arters and now it's being accused of WITCHCRAFT!?" 😄 Clee was on it that day. All her statements were gold.

Norman Rockwell and Maxfield Parrish are good examples of "illustrators" and those pieces are considered ART. I was an illustrator all my life and heard this OLD ASS argument since the 70's!!! You are right "Don't listen to them -their idiots!". I wonder what purpose this bullying serves? It is very disrespectful. As an illustrator I was considered an Artist, I took the same EXACT classes as all the other artists. using the same mediums and the same color and design elements. When I was hired to make a illustration I had to listen to their story, come up with a rough sketch concept and painted all night to come up with a comp, present it to a client and back and forth, much like a commission piece. This bully argument is not even worth discussion, I actually laugh and smirk when I hear someone say such a thing. It is so profoundly ignorant!

I've heard this nonsense since art school. Since I graduated in the late 90's, the line is hair thin to non-existent. Maybe in the old days of Rockwell. I see galleries as much of a commercial enterprise as a book Illustrator. It's a goal for my work to be in books and galleries. I like doing narrative illustration & I like doing my surreal crazy pop nonsense.

Preach!!! 🙌 totally agree. Thank you!

Ok...so, in humourous style, Fine Art could represent F*Ed up Insecure Neurotic Emotional...= "fine"...aptly summed up, when it comes to the type of gaslighting enacted upon other artists/creatives who "dare" to dream & create outside the lines ...I chose to stop at "fine" as I think my words for "art" were a bit mean & gaslighty... so I chose to exit the building on a fine moment😂 But yeah, it saddens me at how mean people get around others creativity...I include myself here, but I attempt to explore what is triggered within myself & where I can grow as an artist person, rather than being a mean wanker (self editing for yt standards😂) So glad you had such a brilliant chat about this wounding within our industry / field/ world

Also there are many "useful idiots" that support idiotic and demonic art saying that is art and downgrading real fine art and highly creative artists by using derogatory words. This is me ranting now .. hihi .. Keep it up Rafi and Klee!

I megaloathe gatekeeping in all forms. I do think labels can be helpful IF the person that is doing the labelling is labelling themselves. I think terms like "fine art" and "illustration" can be helpful for giving someone an idea of what TYPE of art you make, since those terms give a vague idea to the general population of what type of art you are referring to. I think the bigger issue is not what the art is called, but the value judgement we place on those terms. It's not that some people do "fine art" and some people do "illustration" and some people do "crafts;" it's that somewhere along the way, a hierarchy was decided upon, in which "fine art" somehow became the pinnacle of creative endeavor, while "craft" became something to be derided. I also think that the term "illustration" has somehow gotten conflated with "graphic design" in some people's minds, which is a different beast entirely. Not LESS, just different. Human brains love to find patterns and categorize things - it makes the world a little easier for us to understand. It's when we place VALUE on one category over another that the problem begins.

Oh hey sounds like the reason I had to transfer schools in college! The head of the department was an elitist snit that made all teachers below her beat the illustration/comics/concept/low art out of students before they reached her illustrious fine art classes 😑