In Defense of Imagawa Yoshimoto 

@bob bobthebobbobofbobby average compared to what? The top 10 daimyo of the era? There were numerous average daimyo that had no significant impact on the Sengoku Jidai, and countless ones remembered for one or two minor things. Yoshimoto wasn't raised to be a leader or conqueror, he was raised to be a monk and kept out of the picture. That he won a war of succession and controlled one of the most powerful clans during his lifetime already places him above average. He had most of the qualities you look for in a top daimyo and attracted a grand following for good reason, the only area he lacked was in military strategy and that's honestly true for the vast majority of daimyo, it was normal to rely on others for strategy and command on the field. There were only a handful of daimyo who weren't just following their advisors, strategists and field commanders.

@bob bobthebobbobofbobby let me put it this way. He commanded an army estimated to be 35k strong (rumored to be 80-90k if you believe the propaganda they used to intimidate lesser clans, no one knows for sure its true size). Most major battles in medieval Europe were about 10-20k men in total. He attracted to him a huge retinue of famous officers, many of whom became major members of the Tokugawa, Oda, or Takeda clans. In his brief time leading the Imagawa family he not only expanded them to the height of their power, territory, and wealth, but also accomplished more than highly skilled leaders such as Oda Nobuhide, Saito Dosan, Asakura Soken combined. He was the first great daimyo to lead a march on Kyoto that had a realistic chance to put down the rebels and end the era 80 years into the conflict. That he failed should not overshadow the tremendous stature of the man, he was one of the greatest of his time. The impact of his fall was tremendous. I get that doesn't qualify as badass by modern standards but historically speaking he's up there amongst the biggest daimyos in Japan. There was nothing average about this guy, he just falls short of lasting greatness.

@bob bobthebobbobofbobby the strategy he employed is not the problem. Nor was the tactics at Okehazama in any way related to changes in warfare in Japan at the time, those changes came later. You're only viewing this in a very narrow perspective of victory makes right, which is half the reason this video was made to broaden perspectives. Yoshimoto didn't lose at Okehazama because he employed some improper out of date strategy and numbers weren't a factor in his defeat. Nobunaga made a brilliant gambit, unrelated to firearms or any new European ideas of warfare, caught him off guard. In the actual fighting that ensued Nobunaga's forces outnumbered and outclassed Yoshimoto, because the battle of Okehazama is a far larger, sprawling affair than people today realize. There were valid reasons behind Yoshimoto's strategy and frankly the greatest of military geniuses wouldn't have predicted Nobunaga's move there, they could only be better prepared for things going wrong. If all you can see out of the man is one unfortunate defeat then so be it, but the man accomplished far more than you or I will ever in our lifetime, and he did so in a tragically short span of time.

What kind of economic and civil reforms if you don't mind me asking?

@bob bobthebobbobofbobby maybe in that part of Japan. Mori Motonari and the Shimazu clan were already doing this way before Okehazama.

nioh 2 actually does a great job making him actually seem threatening too

Still hate the hammer tho

Oh finally found someone who knows this anime hahaha

If Ieyasu truly saw no merit in him he would have stripped him of his position as heir. Ieyasu had plenty of sons, grandsons ad nephews he could have selected. It's also worth noting that while Sanada did embarrass Hidetada by occupying his forces with only a small garrison, similar scenes were occurring in other parts of Japan. Just as many Western army forces were held out of Sekigahara by equally small Eastern garrisons putting up heroic defenses. In fact there were a lot of battles, sieges, and standoffs occurring on other fronts while Sekigahara was going on.

It is a possibility but this is just another variable.

Ultimately the failure at Okehazama falls to a failure of communication within the Imagawa ranks. The Imagawa vanguard did not know Oda forces had mobilized, Imagawa's elites in his headquarters thought the vanguard had been decimated, Imagawa reinforcements did not receive the call for aid from Yoshimoto's camp, and after his death his remaining forces did not know who was now in charge and could not organize a retaliation. While it's possible Sessai could have organized their forces in a better manner to deal with potential problems, by striking Yoshimoto's headquarters directly Nobunaga effectively severed communications and the chain of command. It is certainly plausible this scenario would have played out the exact same way with Sessai in command, he had no reason to be particularly cautious of Oda Nobunaga. It's not like the Imagawa clan lacked other effective commanders and officers in Sessai's absence, but it's just one of those things that we can never truly know.

Oh I plan on it!! Motonobu is one of my all time favorites!!!

Alternatively his mock court in Sunpu may have angered the Imperial nobility and roused suspicion within the Ashikaga Shogunate of Yoshimoto's ambitions, so it's possible he would have made just as many enemies along the way. But that said Yoshimoto's ability in administration and politics made him a definite candidate to cement order assuming his armies were capable of restoring it in the first place.

yessir , favorite character and Japanese historical figure?

@@AS_Ekko favorite character? Mitsunari Ishida. The actual historical figure? Probably Kenshin Uesugi

Oh yes, and Mitsuhide

@@TheShogunate What about Takeda Katsuyori?

"In defense of Sue Harukata" also looks cool

@@Wakizaka_Yasuharu Even at face value I’d like to believe Katsuyori did not have much of a good reason for his actions outside of pride in his cavalry and in his officers who he thought wouldn’t betray him. His veteran officers tried to dissuade him on many occasions too, making his actions a bit more reckless

@@TheShogunate May I also suggest Shigazane Date. IMO, one of the bravest Samurai of the era who deserves more love.

Your history is full of savages trying to wipe out each other.

Which is wacky! I don't care for most underdogs! Rebels stink.

In the strategy games "nobunagas ambition" they do him justice. Hes seriously one of the easiest daimyo to beat the game with. He has a strong force with fruitful lands. And if you take out nobunaga early you get all the oda's fruitful lands and officers. It's great.

Also, in Warriors Orochi 4 Naomasa Li lures Imagawa by lying that he wants to play kemari, but once Imagawa discovers the truth he adopts a menacing slow tone. At the end of the battle he returns to his "buffoon" persona, and Naomasa questions if he was seeing an illusion. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-FTWlpg8TrJc.html

He’s a football hooligan ? Lol

Hell yeah!!

They're the only ones i have trouble conquering. Somehow they have an endless troop supply it seems.

Nioh 2 Yoshimoto: I will slice you like raw fish.

Hell, imagine Yoshimoto taking up a defeated Oda Nobunaga under his wing and being something of a replacement for Sessai Taigen. The East could steamroll Kyoto and the rest of Japan in record time.

They were all savages.

I do think that samurai warriors 5’s portrayal isn’t entirely accurate either since he certainly wasn’t a samurai tank. He was a smart and capable ruler who left military affairs to people who knew better.

@@puchy110 But it’s a much better portrayal than what the older Samurai Warriors games portrayed him as. Much better to be a god of battle than a bumbling moron.

@@puchy110 in samurai warriors 2 he was a funny puffy man in theatrical make up playing ball

His portrayal in SW5 is probably my favorite character in the game. So regal and badass. A complete 180 from his portrayals in the rest of the series

On the other hand because of his early exposure to Yoshimoto's influence, Tokugawa Ieyasu took up the mantle and ended the Sengoku period with much of the same strategy and wisdom that made the former so successful. Yoshimoto walked so Tokugawa could run.

@@MarvinT0606 Possibly, but personally, I do not think Yoshitomo could have become Shogun and if he did he would have not been able to keep the Daimyo in good order. I don't think he had the strength of personality for it.

@@TheOnlyCathyCat Yoshimoto was content with keeping the peace from behind the scenes, controlling one of the Ashikagas. This strategy is not without precedent as this was what the Old Hojo clan did to control the Minamoto Shoguns. Tokugawa on the other hand could (and did) take the wheel himself because he had the right bloodline.

@@MarvinT0606 ...Yoshitomo wouldn't have been able to control a Shogun either, imho, and though one may puppet a Shogun its not like it is a secret in the politic, the Shogun is the pawn, not the winning piece. Which is exactly the conclusion Nobunaga came to.

He forgot to pick military ideas group and get very bad dice roll.

Yuck. You EU/CK/HOI guys make me sick. It's the the way you guys think you're intelligent because you play a spreadsheet simulator

Archery contests in that time largely occurred within temples, and Buddhists monks who turned archery practice into a religious practice (a skill useful for meditation purposes) were often the best at these contests. Yoshimoto ofc was raised in a monastery for a significant portion of his life, it is quite likely he won a few archery contests in his time. Whether this was just a flowery title he earned or if he put it to effective use on the battlefield is another question.

Yes, all good points on Tokugawa except the Hojo downfall, that one actually cost him a great deal. Not only was Tokugawa an ally of the Hojo with a mutual reliance for support, but also in an interesting ploy by Toyotomi to weaken Tokugawa he was forced to relocate from his original territories (Mikawa + former Imagawa and Takeda lands) into the now destabilized Hojo territory. This is actually part of where Ieyasu's own brilliance shines through that he not only successfully reestablished himself and stabilized the region also used this as a way to distance himself from Toyotomi and the ill fated invasion of Korea. Thus he turned the tables on what really should have been a brilliant ploy by Hideyoshi.

@@Naraku-no-Hana-WE I seemed to have forgot that the Hojo especially after the Tensho-jingo conflict were in close relation to Ieyasu considering ieyasus daughter married Ujinao and thus they became family. The Hojo lands didn't necessarily mean that ieyasu would be at an advantage from the beginning. it is considered that this change of territories caused him distress, because he lost Mikawa to which he had been firmly related, and because in addition, there were disquieting movements in the Kanto region of that time, for example, by remaining retainers of the Hojo clan. Furthermore, the Hojo clan employed a tax system of shiko-rokumin (40% of the rice crop produced yearly was collected as a tax, and the remaining 60% became farmers' income), which was extremely favorable for farmers of that time, and Ieyasu could not raise the tax rate thoughtlessly either. Therefore, an increase in the real income corresponding to that in the amount of rice crop could not be expected. However, Ieyasu moved to the Kanto region according to Hideyoshi's order and came to reside in Edo. He could've chosen to govern from Odawara but he chose Edo instead which was a fishing village at the time even if it put him as far away from the capital as possible and far from politics I suppose. He also placed powerful retainers in important branch castles, compotent retainers such as Okubo Nagayasu, Ina Tadatsugu, Hasegawa Nagatsuna, Hikosaka Motomasa, Mukai Masatsuna, Naruse Masakazu and Kusakabe Sadayoshi thus it allowed ieyasu to govern the Kanto with great development. Actually, ieyasu wasn't the only Daimyo exempted from taking part in the Bunroku-Keicho war, others were as well plus those who didn't take part were ordered to be stationed at Nagoya-Hizen which was the castle used for the invasion into the Korean peninsula. Even ieyasu himself urged Ujimasa to pledge allegiance to Hideyoshi so clearly he did hold their alliance to such a level of respect and diplomacy.

@@thedragonofechigo7878 Yes, reestablishing order in Kanto while avoiding pitfalls both from former Hojo retainers and still powerful neighboring clans was a major balancing act. Not to mention lands and castles directly damaged by Hideyoshi's conquest. Flooding of regions and fires required a period of recovery, indeed raising taxes while the repairs and recovery were ongoing would only hurt his own powerbase in the long run. The selection of Edo over Odawara was very purposeful, to distance himself both from Hideyoshi and from the former Hojo regional capital. Edos conversion into a powerful and profitable capital also doubled as a sign of his investment in the wellbeing of his new subjects and an intent to control trade and economic progress. Yeah, Hideyoshi couldn't possibly bring everyone with him to Korean, but it's my personal belief (based in part on statements from Hideyoshi and my own theories regarding his rise to power) that Hideyoshi viewed the invasion of Korea and ultimately China not as a needed conquest, but as a tool of control to eliminate and distract rivals. I have no doubt he really wanted to order Ieyasu to Korea but Ieyasu outplayed him in that regard, and Hideyoshi had to be content with hoping Ieyasu efforts in Kanto would fail.

@@Naraku-no-Hana-WE I actually I appreciate that theory, I don't think the invasion of Korea and China were a neccesity but perhaps Hideyoshi did use the war to put all opposition to his power at an disadvantage. Perhaps he did want to really send ieyasu to Korea in hopes that he may die there or deplete his army and resources since it was such an expenditure for many Daimyo. Ieyasu did probably outplay Hideyoshi but also because Hideyoshi did not want to go to war against him yet again due to how it may upset peace in the nation. I mean, as bold as the invasion, perhaps Hideyoshi knew it was going to be a long struggle where his forces would begin to falter at some point but if this wars true purpose was to eliminate and distract rivals. He only had ieyasu to really worry about and perhaps Masamune as well seeing as he never was on the council of elders but still held ambition to take rule of the country if the opportunity came.

@@thedragonofechigo7878 ah I suppose I put that in a misleading way. Hideyoshi wasn't trying to take out specific rivals, Hideyoshi great fear was that he didn't know where the next Toyotomi Hideyoshi, the next Matsunaga Hisahide, or Akechi Mitsuhide was coming from. Rather than trying to kill his rivals he was trying to burn them out on further conquests and bankrupt them. At the same time he's satisfying the desire for glory of lesser warriors and giving them a common enemy while he solidified his rule and dynasty, knowing he needed to buy time for his family to firmly root themselves in Imperial politics. I believe if his goal truly was to win the war and conquer China and Korea he would have spent more time building up the navy so it could confront the Korean navy. There was no realistic chance of conquering the mainland if he couldn't establish solid supply lines and reinforcements while dancing around one of the strongest navies in the hemisphere.

If you play ROBLOX join me!

In Samurai Warriors 2 he's just built differently.

I would like to call this the Yu Jin effect or something along the lines of that. Basically, a storied and capable veteran or general who achieved success after success for the most better part of their careers, earning accolades and praises from their peers. Then in one unfortunate battle, sometimes with circumstances out of their control, they lose one battle and then history makes fools out of them. I use Yu Jin as an example because he served Cao Cao valiantly for 20 years before Fan Castle when the flash flood that happened cut him off from Cao Ren and he was forced to surrender to save the lives of his men. Cao Xiu and Ma Su are some other good examples as well.

@@MAegcuru DW still traer yu jin better than yoshimoto tho, he's literal clow in sw 1-4. Glad 5 made him better

​​​@@MAegcuruYu Jin got redeemed in DW as a tough badass disciplinary sherrif who punishes those who disobey the law. In 9, he asked to spare his men, but he wasn't made a coward. I. 8XL tho, he basically straight up strolls in like he owns the place and assume command of the Fan Castle defense But yes, Ma Su, Cao Xiu and Cao Zhen are also examples too.

There are a lot of common misconceptions about the battle of Okehazama that lead to a skewed view of Yoshimoto's defeat. First, while his total forces vastly outnumbered the Oda (estimated at 35k vs 5k), the battle was a huge, sprawling affair with Imagawa detachments deployed all over attacking separate Oda and anti-Imagawa garrisons. In the actual fighting that took place between Nobunaga and Yoshimoto the Oda forces actually outnumbered the Imagawa defenders. Not only that but the Oda troops were more experienced as well having campaigned a ton in the months leading up to the battle. Secondly, Yoshimoto wasn't completely blindsided by the attack, the story of him stepping out of his tent to be beheaded by Oda samurai is largely considered a fabrication. Oda forces ambushed a detachment of the vanguard and routed them nearly in front of Yoshimoto's headquarters. Now Nobunaga's men had managed to creep that close due to the cover of forrest and rain, but the vanguard detachment they defeated didn't just collapse instantly it put up a fight. The problem for the Imagawa HQ forces was that they didn't know what was going on elsewhere on the battlefield. Seeing some of the vanguard fall right in front of them and the Oda main forces descending on them convinced much of the camp that the vanguard had already fallen and the field had been lost. Now it's also likely that the Imagawa troops judgement was impaired by drinking and resting within the camp, but either way they hastily assembled a battleline to confront what they saw as a superior force (in every aspect). Anyhow you're not wrong that Yoshimoto is unfairly judged for this defeat alone, but really the credit goes to the Oda side for a brilliant (and fortuitous) attack on their HQ. Yoshimoto did attempt to rally his forces and put up a fight but its one he could not win without reinforcements, and unfortunately they simply did not make it.

Previous relations don't matter too much in the Sengoku Jidai as they were in almost every case back and forth, as it was with Imagawa and Hojo. While the Shiba had taken Totomi from Imagawa, by the time Yoshimoto's grandfather retook the province it was long since lost to the Shiba clan held by the Katsumada and Yokota clans. And that conflict was 85 years before Okehazama, former allies and enemies frequently shifted during those years. Anyhow marching west was the logical decision to securing Kyoto the ultimate goal of the era, but doing so while powerful rivals remained to the East put a real timer on Imagawa's march, which definitely had some impact on the strategy they employed at Okehazama.

Are you sure? That is the way it is usually written in sources.

@@TheShogunate Taigen Soufu Sessai 太原崇孚雪斎 if you count ALL his names. ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%AA%E5%8E%9F%E9%9B%AA%E6%96%8E