This is right. People act like we have zero obligations to people we engage in romantically. You don't owe anyone a relationship - but you do owe them honesty, even if it's awkward or disappointing. There's no one on earth who wants to be treated as disposably as Summer treats Tom.
Summer gave Tom honesty. She honestly told him from the start that she did not want a romantic relationship with him. Tom ignored and harassed her. Since Tom was narrating, we are not sure if Summer ever kissed him or did anything to lead him on or if Tom was misremembering.
I'm sorry - this essay highlights perfectly the mixed messages Summer is sending out. He is taken advantage because of his toxic view of romance, but he is still taken advantage of. @@josefk7437
@@josefk7437There was a moment in the Movie where Tom didn't want to doa anything with Summer anymore, but Summer went to his place and won him back, I don't think what you're saying is 100% right.
Well that’s too bad because I’m in The Smiths phase right now, honestly don’t know how I haven’t evaporated from existence considering that I’m also big on Radiohead.
This! So many people side with one person only and completely miss how they ended up wishing each other best. The movie wasn't about "A wrong, B right" and all the one sided polarizations in the internet don't help with it.
Summer omitted details, which is akin to lying. If we HAD to pick a bad guy in this movie, it was definitely Summer. Tom's only crime was being a loved up fool
I'm so glad someone finally stands up for Tom. This whole time I felt like I was being gaslit by other people into thinking Tom was a "bad guy" and I'm like, "Did we watch the same movie???"
Tom may not be a bad guy and he may have had some sympathetic qualities, but he still had Nice Guy syndrome and entitlement problems. We the audience are left to make up the ending Tom gets with Autumn. If you liked Tom, you can imagine that she gave him the better romantic relationship he wanted. Anyone who thought Tom was a bad guy can imagine that he fucks up just as much with Autumn as he did with Summer.
@@LinhNguyen-il6xethey're both toxic douchebags no side is correct or entirely wrong he screamed at Summer when she said she wants some space "You're not the only one who gets a say in this relationship, I do too! and I say we're a couple goddammit!" that's pretty toxic to me 😂 Summer is too because she's not honest with him and enabled him
I saw this in the comments of another video about this movie, it's easy to see the faults with Tom, but the moment anyone tries to respectfully recognize the faults with Summer, the person is automatically tagged as an incel afterwards, which is pretty pathetic. This movie is about common mistakes anyone can make and neither Tom nor Summer are perfect.
The problem with avoidant personalities like Summer is that they have become so accustomed to the lack of deep emotional connection that they somewhat expect others to perceive reality and behave similarly. But deep down even personalities like Summer's need human connection and intimacy, and that's the culprit: they send out mixed messages, verbally warning their potential more-than-a-friend-but-less-than-a-partner, but acting in a totally opposite stance. That's when people like Tom think they might be onto something more than a "situationship", after all, actions count more than words right? And that's the trap. I have been in a similar situation where the red flags were multiple, and the opinions on love and relationships uttered by this girl I felt an interest in were of a typical avoidant personality type, but for a minute I let myself play the mental rom-com as if I could be the one able to turn her mind around on love. Luckily I saved myself a lot of trouble realizing this in time before falling hard for her, and I think this movie helped me in some way.
Summer did not have an avoidant personality. She found someone very quickly after ending things with Tom and she had a lot of personal connection and friendships outside of her romantic life. She did not send Tom mixed messages. She made it clear that she did not want a romance with Tom. Tom just ignored and harassed her anyway. Even so, Summer still wanted a non-romantic friendship with Tom. That does not sound avoidant to me.
@@josefk7437 dude are you kidding? She's the textbook of mixed messages, saying a thing and acting the opposite way. Tom harassing her? Are yoiu serious?
@@KEPHALLE She said from the start that she was not interested in a romance. She was still interested in a non-romantic friendship and acted accordingly. She let Tom do non-romantic fun things. It only looks like mixed messages because we were only seeing from Tom's point of view. Tom wanted to believe Summer wanted romance, so he imagined a crowd dancing all in step with a cartoon bird. He was also an unreliable narrator who sees cartoon birds, so we are not sure how much Summer actually did and how much was in Tom's mind.
People allways focus on who's the "villain" I've been in that exact relationship, I can tell you firsthand that there's no enemy here, there's only 2 people who did not succeed at having a relationship. That's life.
That is true but theres been a bandwagon about Tom being a toxic person who wanted to manifest a nonexistant romance into reality. The video brings a little justice by pointing out that he's not completely at fault for that
It is, more specifically, about two people who are fundamentally not prepared for a relationship. He wanted a fairy tale romance that anyone his age should know isn't a thing that happens (on account of people being... people) and she wanted a relationship without any commitment or obligation. Which also doesn't exist, because of honesty and basic decency.
So true. People are SO, SO, complex and confusing. This is what everyone needs to realise instead of trying to put them into boxes. Neither is wrong here, they were just wrong for each other
So I don't think either of them are bad guys. I think this relationship was unfortunately dysfunctional because two people couldn't accept what the other person was saying or wanted. Yes, Tom is "guilty" of not accepting that Summer wouldn't fully commit to him, but she's equally as guilty of being aware that he was basically falling in love with her, and still going back to him and having sex and going on dates. When I watched this the first time, I didn't hate Summer and think she was a bitch. I just thought the whole situation was heartbreaking and unfortunate. I can empathize with both characters because I've been in both of their shoes to some degree. But I don't think it's okay to keep stringing someone along when you know you can't give them what they want, as much as its' not okay to try to force a relationship with someone who doesn't want it. She didn't have enough consideration for his feelings and seemed to just sort of use him for casual sex because she was bored, horny and didn't know what she wanted. In one of the last scenes on the park bench, I loved the little bit of dialogue because I think it perfectly makes a case for what she did wrong. Tom: "so, why did you dance with me?" Summer: "because I wanted to" Tom "you just do what you want, don't you"
I agree with most of what you said, BUT i dont think she was using him for casual sex, i think she liked him, but not as much a tom likes her! And the reason is that she can tell that tom would put himself as a carpet for her to step on., tom doesnt respects himself. I think she liked him, but didnt respect him, because "he cant live without her" and probably also thinks he is wasting his potential, not pursuing his passion for arquitecture.
@@sawlfo while I don't disagree that the attraction wasn't strong enough for her, I certainly got the impression that she was using him for sex, emotional validation and comfort, or something else. First, she kept going back to him and refused to break it off; even when they had their falling out she "apologized" and "re-assured" him that nobody could promise him the kind of commitment he is looking for (which lowkey sounds like something an abuser would say, just saying). When they sit down and talk at the park bench for the last time, he finally confronts her about her decision to dance with him at that former coworker's wedding when she was seeing someone else. Her response was simply "because I wanted to", and when he responded coldly with "you just do what you want, don't you?" she had no answer. This entire time she's been essentially just using him as a vessel for her own comfort and pleasure, and not being very considerate about his feelings, and it became obvious when he finally sternly called her out on it. That was the hand she had in making their relationship fail; if she was more considerate, she probably wouldn't have started it in the first place.
@@Jazzmaster1992 agreed she was very very inconsiderate, the guy was clearly madly in love with her. She knew that and could have stayed away if she care enough to save him the grief.
@@sawlfo He couldnt "sexually satisfy" her to the level 5 black guys could so she left. You women are *hores now, hes the bad guy somehow youre delusional, in real life hes representing the idiots getting cuckolded, and you say the woman is the victim.
Honesly, this is typical college/post college behaviour from women. Qhe i s alone and bored, hang out with a guy and always let the thing ambigious because she did not see him as a permanent partner. Then she she takes no accountability and gashtlight him. Well he is not innencent too because he can't let her go. But i have see this scenario so many times...
YESSS finally! This has been nagging at me for years. They are both normal people with flaws who aren't meant for each other. They're both just human. There's been this wave of hate and blame directed at Tom with most people villainizing him, including Joseph Gordon-Levitt himself. But it's like people completely ignored all of Summer's actions in the film that prove she is neither innocent nor a victim: 1. She knew Tom's romantic belief in love from the get go. 2. She flirted with him first and initiated the kiss/"relationship. 3. After they got back from the bar where Tom got punched, they had a fight because Summer says they're just friends, but Tom passionately disagrees and states that they are more than friends. He leaves immediately after, but we see that Summer goes to his place in the middle of that same night and the two hug and kiss, etc. without communicating at all about what happened and what their expectations are now. There's no mention of that fight again. This moment is critical because I actually have a theory that it's at this point that Summer does try to be in a romantic relationship with Tom that's more than friends. Although we don't see her POV to confirm this, it makes her crying at the movie theatre and her breaking up with him essentially make sense. However, even if that is Not the case, and it was only a situationship to her even by this point, she still knowingly leads him on. It was a selfish move to keep Tom around for the sake of her wants. Everyone complains that Tom was being selfish for idealizing Summer - which is true - but she was being just as selfish to lead him on especially knowing that he wanted something serious from her. 4. Summer is careless with Tom's feelings throughout the movie tbh. She says that Tom is her best friend and wants to stay friends with him. She greets him with excitement and fondness when they run into each other after the "break-up." She even initiates the dance with him because "she wanted to." She invites him to her party and refrains from telling him she's engaged. She actually never tells him, because we see that Tom only found out when he saw Summer with the guy and noticed the ring on her finger. If you're close with someone and consider them a friend, surely you'd at least have the empathy to let them down gently. She does what she wants even if it will hurt the other person. Now should Tom have been more careful about his feelings? Absolutely. At least have the decency to treat the other person with respect. If you've been in a romantic relationship with someone, considered them your best friend then broke things off with them (even if it's not serious and was a situationship) and saw how hurt they were after that, why would you lead them on again? They talked the whole train ride and then had the whole night of the wedding to catch up, yet she never - not once - mentioned her recent engagement. Tom is not without his faults as well, but most video essays and comments out there already point those out so I won't here. It's sad to see that he is crucified for idealizing someone though because I think it's common among everyone, like you mentioned in the video. So many people idolize celebrities so it's not only a romantic thing. With that said, Tom doesn't actually hurt anyone but himself. He causes his own pain out of a romantic hopelessness and naivety. But that doesn't make him a bad guy. That makes him human. Just like Summer with her own set of faults. They didn't belong together and that's okay. They were also still young and navigating their lives at the time. That's life. I just wish people would criticize both characters equally and with empathy.
When Joseph Gordon-Leavitt villainized Tom, I think that was different from the audience doing so. He knew what he had to do in order to become the character. I also remember that the audience initially had the opposite reaction to Tom. Initially, the audience hated Summer and loved Tom. When the audience got older and later generations of people watched the movie, we got to see the hate for Tom that used to be directed at Summer.
The line “When u look at someone through rose colored glasses. Even red flags look just like flags.” That really hit me and i think many other people as well. Reminded me of my ex.
I think that they're both at fault. Tom : He forces Summer to make the first move because he isn't confident, he's a bit needy and too emotional, and he basically lets Summer get away with whatever. So she doesn't fully respect him or truly feel safe to be with him. Summer : She claims to not want a BF. Yet she does things like initiate handholding in IKEA/cuddling, she is emotionally vulnerable, and she lets Tom take her on dates. So, she clearly enables and enjoys the GF experience which leads Tom on.
Summer probably wondered what rule says you have to be a girlfriend or in a relationship to initiate handholding or cuddling, play house in Ikea, or be emotionally vulnerable. Tom failed to be open to the idea of doing those things without being a couple. Summer still pushed for a non-romantic friendship after Tom rejected that idea the way Tom wanted a romance after Summer rejected that.
He was a hopeless romantic and she took advantage of his naiveness. She was quite experienced on relationships, had a high body count and basically decided to have fun without regards of toms feelings. After she got bored with this toy, she moved on to the next. Narcissist is a better definition for summer
So true, she was always invalidating her words “I don’t want anything serious” while she always treated him as couple. They really have a relationship although she was always giving the message that she didn’t want one (only with words)
She also initiated in most situations. She pushes the questions, she kisses him first, she goes for everything. She uses the idea that she told him she wasn’t looking for a real relationship to justify continuing to interact with him.
She was pretty clear and upfront with him though, which really isn't how true narcissists operate. She told him point blank she didn't want anything serious and he agreed, and yet he tried to manipulate her into doing what he wanted her to do. To me he might have been more narcissistic, definitely more manipulative than her, she's not innocent though but neither is he
"She was quite experienced in relationships, had a high body count". How do we know this? She might have been more experienced than Tom, but that's not saying much.
I think the part of the movie where Tom gets invited to the engagement party without Summer telling him it's an engagement party is glossed over too much. It's the kind of thing that is cruel to the point where it made me wonder if Summer is supposed to have an empathy disorder or if whoever the story was based on had one and it ended up coming through in the script. Re-watching the movie at different times in my life, at first I didn't like Tom and then I thought they were just mismatched. That part of the movie when I really noticed it put me more on the side of Tom because that is really not normal. It's not honest or being upfront about what you want and grievances against that kind of behavior are legit.
That's one of the things people overlook, after break up Tom tries to move on and Summer keeps showing up to him and still acting romantic towards him knowing what kind of person he is. She dances with him and the invites him to that party and at their last time together she goes up to him and hold his hand
I thought the movie was rigged to make the audience not like Tom. We see too much of Tom's point of view and not enough of anyone else's. That makes us see more to dislike about him. He was played by an actor who didn't like him. That also sets up the audience. If we saw more of Summer's point of view and internal dialogue, Summer would seem more like Marnie or Hannah from Girls.
I totally agree with this. And I feel like Summer knew Tom was hung up on her still. Women usually know. He thought she was inviting him to a party and he was thinking they were going to re-kindle their relationship and it was for her engagement party to another guy. It was very, very cold hearted to put him through that and not mention it. Unless she was really just that blissfully unaware of his feelings. I think Tom was just truly a passing fad in her life and she didn't really give him all that much thought or care that much about him.
I think this movie is an excellent example of that saying that you are the villain in someone’s story. While you’re figuring out what you want and don’t want in life, and with specific people, there’s going to be collateral damage as you go along. And there’s gonna be times where yeah, you kind of are the villain and you may be always will be to that person.
Think you hit the nail on the head. "Summer just doesn't care about other people's feelings." And the flip side is that Tom just doesn't see the forest for the trees. This was a great setup and executed so well that were still discussing it over a decade later. Great discussion
It's still hard for me to wrap my head around anybody walking away from this film thinking that Tom's the bad guy. Thank you for standing up against common modern-day narratives and basically saying, "Wanting to be loved doesn't make you an asshole."
How can anybody blame Tom? The movie shows his point of view, and all he sees is this funny, charming, cute, funny, and beautiful girl. Those traits will be very hard to resist. Good or bad
@@Chido.7 Sure. And a sane person, who doesn't want anything serious, who watches the other one fall in love and wanting something more would end it immediately and not keep on having dates and sex and stuff. But she didn't.
One moment that stands out to me is the scene after the bar fight. Tom storms out after screaming "you're not the only one that gets a say in this, I do too, and I say we're a couple goddammit". Later that night Summer can't sleep and goes to him. In the doorway of his apartment, she bats her eyelashes at him and she's sorry she got mad at him and while she can't give him any guarantees about a relationship "she likes [him]". They kiss and go straight back to hooking up even though she knows Tom still wants more than that. That should have been the red flag moment for Summer where she realises that they were simply not compatible to carry on as they were. He was clearly way too invested in the idea of being a serious couple and wouldn't be happy with anything less than that. A more thoughtful version of Summer would have made the executive decision to stop seeing him after that argument. Instead, she lets it drag out several more months and blindsides him when she's had enough.
Yup, my perspective when watching this film is that Summer lead Tom on. It’s funny how articles needed to be written and actors needed to come forward and clarify how we *should* think. She represents the avoidant attachment style partner that many of us have interacted with in our own lives.
She had too many other friendships and found another guy too easily to have an avoidant attachment style. She was still interested in a non-romantic friendship with Tom. I think this makes it impossible for Summer to have an avoidant attachment style. Tom was very immature and entitled.
I love this movie. And this was such a refreshing take. It’s realistic. The point you made about summer pursuing him knowing his beliefs was such a strong point to show she also was not completely in the right in this situation. All though many people want to suggest Tom was really the one to blame for his pain, while true to an extent, is very passible and relatable in my opinion. We’ve all been there where we have hope that maybe if I treat this person right that they will experience true love with me. Many people have said they don’t want to be married or have kids and end up meeting someone who loves them and brings the best out in them and so want to pursue such a thing. So I don’t think Tom’s feelings of hope are unrealistic, it’s just sad and unfortunate things had to go the way they did and they both through out multiple points of the film could have done a better job of communicating
I loved the movie because of how much it allows the audience to think for themselves. Thanks to an unreliable narrator and an ambiguous ending, we are left to imagine how it goes with Tom and Autumn. We are also left to imagine if Summer actually did any of the "Lead him on" things we see or if Tom only imagined that. Since we only see Summer from Tom's point of view, we get to fill in the blanks about what Summer was really like.
Its almost been a decade since i watched this movie for the 1st time and since then i have come across so many videos defending summer. Finally someone talking about Tom's side too. Thank you! For me, Tom's word at the end sums up Summer for "You didn't want to be someone's gf now u r someone's wife", like Tom, i don't understand it.
She realised that Tom idealised her and didn't know her at all. She met her future husband in a cafe(?) whilst reading a book, he said that he'd read the same one. That started a relationship which was more grounded and based in reality. However, she wouldn't have known this without being in a relationship with Tom. She didn't want to be TOM's gf, not "A gf".
@@toomuchinformation he never said he read the same one, he said he hadn't read it and asked her about it. Which could indicate that he took an interest in her interests despite not having them as his own where tom took an interest in summers interests because they were his own
You've made a great argument. People have the right to impose their boundaries but also not be surprised by someone receiving mixed signals having their own expectations. Can you analyze Call Me by Your Name?
I think at the beginning of the movie, Summer doesn't really know what she wants yet. She goes into the relationship with good intent, but during it she loses interest. But realizing this can be hard and confusing. She might think things like: "Maybe it will pass?", "Do I have to break up now?" or "I don't want to hurt the feelings of this person I care about." In this stage, where one person is already kind of checked out of the relationship, the relationship can go on sort of like a zombie. At this point peolpe will often wait for the relationship to implode. Of course just breaking up is more commendable, but it's hard. I In the journey of finding out what we like and who we want as partners, we might end up in multiple relationships as either the Summer or the Tom - either the person too into it or the person already checked out. I think both sides are very human and understandable. We have to learn to be more honest about our feelings and more realistic in our expectations. But this is really hard. All in all, I think this movie portrays this dynamic beautifully.
If Summer actually ever cared about Tom's feeling she wouldn't have invited him to her engagement party without telling him she was now engaged. Knowing full well he was still very much hung up on her.
@@STONESGAM Although I'm not sure inviting him to the engagement party is an indication that she never cared for his feelings at all, I do agree with the sentiment. Inviting him without telling is at best naive and at worst cruel.
@@DKH712 Yeah, I mean if there was a girl who I knew was very hung up on me and was someone I previously dated and I ran into her somewhere and the signs were still there that she was very interested I wouldn't invite her to my engagement party and just act like it was some casual get together or normal house party or something like that without mentioning it. Very cold unless you are clueless about the other person's feelings.
I watched this at age 27,37 & 41 years old. I saw the movie differently each time. At 1st, i thought she was the problem, then i thought Tom should've listened better, and he wouldn't have been hurt. Now i just chalk it up to 2 young kids scared sh!tle$$ about getting hurt. I think we all were there once in our lives.
Ohmygod this video is criminally under-viewed!! Thank you for making this video with all your points and giving a voice to us hopeless romantics. We're absolutely flawed and naive, but not all of us are angry "incels" and sometimes the thing we need to help us grow is a little love and affection!
I recently finished the movie for the first time and i couldn't ignore how i felt a conection between what im living and tom's story, im not in a "casual" relationship, but more a constant series of heartbreakes from part of someone i take not only as my friend, but as my romantic interest, this very night, the same day i finished the movie, i acidentally helped her confess thinking it was me... to another man, this might sound "edgy" and "sad" but i just wanted to tell, im trying to become the reformed Tom, and stop being the hopeless romantic i myself am, i Will change my ways, so, thank you, 500 Days Of Summer
I’m so glad you made this video. I’ve always saw Tom as really the victim in this movie instead of summer because of the way summer never communicated correctly with him. Yes, at times she said they were friends, however, any normal person would see the way she acts with him as a “relationship.” Tom is real for feeling the way he felt for someone who gave him affection like she did.
Unfortunally until you learn the hard way you dont see this people as "problematic".You just think they are broken and you feel empathy cuz you can understand them and they dont stop knocking at your door cuz they dont care...they sweet talk you etc then you realize they had 0 empathy for you.KNOWLEDGE IS EVERYTHING.
People missed the ending so hard. Everyone thinks it’s Tom repeating the cycle. It’s not. It’s him finally breaking free from the model (breaking free from the narration) and he finally makes a move to take it slow. He didn’t focus on his “autumn” because he was so caught up in “summer”.
I will never understand why people watch the movies and pick sides. To me the point is that they are two flawed individuals, who bring their flaws into an unhealthy relationship and in doing so end up learning more about themselves than they ever could alone. It shows the point of relationships and why two people who have love do each others can still fail at maintaining one.
Tom didn't really love summer, he was just unhealthly attached to her, but you're right; he would have recognized that far earlier if Summer wasn't complicit in that delusion while manipulating him.
I love your personal analysis on Tom. I think we can all relate to him but we should see him as an immature version of ourselves. He's dictated by his emotions and reason surpasses his judgements about Summer. He attaches her to superficial attributes and blocks out any depth about her as soon she opens up to him. He's possessive about their relationship which is why it ultimately ends bc he can't compliment Summer as much as he wants Summer to complete his own desire to fulfill "the one" that's missing in his life instead of taking the responsibility sharing that relationship. I felt bad for Tom, too. Until I realized that I'm supposed to move on from being like Tom. Great video for a great movie! 👍you
Yep, another Tom here 😉 I totally flip out when i fell for someone, i idealize them, ignore all red flags and i just see what i need from my ideal partner. Of course as soon as they start going cold, i flip out and try to fix it, harder and harder which eventually creates counter effect. Hard thing for me is to understand Summer, and people like her, how is possible to casually go on dates, kiss with someone, have sex, etc if you don't want anything serious, like how you don't see that you will hurt another person 😐 I like to think that Tom eventually found what he was searching for, and that Summer was life lession for him. That gives me hope
But who would not in the case of Tom ? If someone messes your head by saying we are friends one day and kissing the next day , there is no doubt that its a mixed signal. It takes long time and maturity to notice this as immature manipulation. In our 20s we are simply not capable , no one teaches us to deal with such things.
@@Valkyri3Z Ultimately you have personal responsibility to choose to reject that kind of behavior, especially if you two are friends. If you care about this person you would tell them that what their actions are hurting you and that if they refuse to change that you're not obligated to stay with them.
@@angeloanderson2568 LOL You are making it sound like its so easy .. dude. That is where 'EMPATHY' comes in. Its also personal choice NOT to lead someone on. That weight of responsibility does not fall on one single person just because he is a man. We are making it sound like everyone makes the right choice and everyone is perfect. No one is and that is what life is. I fail to see what is the earth shattering fault of Tom ? He fell in love with someone who did not return it and worse lead him on , gave him mixed signals. Is that his crime ? LOL
@@Valkyri3Z I never it's easy to take responsibility for your own emotions, especially if it's tied to a passionate relationship. I'm speaking from experience about Tom, I've rewatched the movie every year during and after high school. I used to feel the same way that you do about him. In reality he isn't a victim of a relationship that didn't work out. He's the problem to begin with. He has a selfish view of love about making someone fit his mold of "The One" instead of loving someone for who they are. This means seeing the person beyond their smile, their eyes, etc. It means acknowledging their quirks and imperfections alongside their best traits and accepting them regardless because you truely love them for who they are. Tom only admires Summer for her superficial external qualities when they're lying in bed and in the same scene blocks out whatever she actually has to say about herself... Then rants about those same qualities when they break up. The expectation vs reality scene really does it best when he literally runs away from the reality of her having had a life beyond him after leaving the greeting card company... I'd like to think that every year I watch the movie again I've gained a more mature understanding of what a romantic relationship is and not what I want it to be. In that experience came some serious heartbrakes that I've come to cherish and learn from.
It's also true that anytime someone has been into me, even if I wasn't into them, I tried to make them happy to not end up with me, tried to help them find someone else, or find some other way to make their life better for having met me. I don't just say "Nah" and go on, figuring they just have to cope with it.
I rewatched this movie recently, and was left with a worse version of Summer than upon initial viewings. She seemed nonchalant in her emotional investment which seemed careless, like the party was always on. But I guess that is the point of growing up, two messy people cleaning themselves up for a better life. You can almost make the argument that Tom's re-ignition for architecture is Summers eventual marriage. The relationship an eventual vehicle for two peoples more permanent state in life.
Why does nobody talk about Tom rising like a Fenix from the simp ashes by putting his nose to the grindstone while burning midnight oil and going after his dream career and meeting an Autumn exotic spice?
Many perspectives out there on this. I like this one. My belief is similar to what you said at the beginning. Nobody is actually right in any relationship. Most opinions online are just subjective understandably because we all have our own experiences on romance. Love is so complex. Its just incredible how this movie can showcase its nuance more than any words anyone can describe. Summer and Tom are both flawed characters who want love, but have issues with vulnerability. Tom is unapologetically vulnerable, but is a hopeless romantic that just wants love, but is willing to ignore red flags at the cost of his own well being. Because Summer struggles with vulnerability, she struggles to connect. Instead she shuts down anything that can cause her pain. Tom is so desperate for love, hes willing to let her step all over him which builds resentment. His desperation reminds her of the costs of what she perceives to be love, and so she backs away. Its a classic tale of two people who want love, but don't know how to give or receive it in a healthy way. I don't think either character is to blame. They both have tragic perspectives that is more than common in the human experience. Thats what great story telling is after all. People love blaming, especially with the social climate these days. But they are both entitled to their perspective because in the end, they are both victims of love.
They were both paying for their mistakes. Tom got his expectations of love from movies instead of reality and he paid for it. Summer's rejection of him was his bad karma. Tom was Summer's bad karma for her flaws. If you think Tom deserved love, you can imagine that he did better with Autumn. You are also free to imagine how Summer did with her husband. There was so much open endedness.
I think we need to distinguish between what is morally 'right' or 'wrong' and what is destructive or constructive. Summer may be right and didn't promise anything to Tom, but that doesn't mean her basic attitude is okay. Everyone knows that people need healthy relationships to have a good life. That's who we are. Messing around with Tom's feelings like this will get Summer absolutely nowhere. Of course Tom is desperate and needy, but at the same time what he wants from life (namely a healthy family life) is much healthier and mentally better than what Summer is looking for. The short-term freedom she thinks she needs can hit back like a boomerang. And in fact, I see this all around me now. People who don't want to make connections and mess around well into their 30s. Until they find out they missed the boat.
I wasn’t going to comment on this as I haven’t watched the movie but you brought up a very good point. The blame is on both - as dishonest Tom was with his needs and desires, it is also up to summer put aside her desire for validation/whatever she gets from Tom in order to be honest with him - that she’ll never be able to fulfill his needs in the way he truly wants, and she never really let him know this. The close proximity they both stand in that scene does signal that she is saying: there is a chance this could happen. Why she does this, is unknown (validation, curiosity, power? Idk), but the fact that she did it, knowing what signal it gives off and not caring that it’s manipulative, is wrong.
This video is like a breath of fresh air. So many videos out there state that Summer did nothing wrong, but starting a fling with some whose one: a firm believer in love and two: clearly has feelings for you is very cruel and self-serving, even if you make it verbally clear.
Ive been saying this for years. Summer is callous. She flirts with him when they run into each other at the wedding full well knowing he is very broken up about her. Tom for sure treated her as an idealization instead of a person, but she also used him for attention and "fun" with little regard for where he was at.
I was on Tom's shoes one time and had my own Summer. It's really hard to let that go or to view the red flags when the other side shows so conflicting sentiments. Like one time she said to my mother, right on my side, that I was the best thing ever happened to her. Or when she asked me to never let her go. On my view, I think the other person feeds on that love and care, until there's enough confidence to admit that this is not what they wanted. Fortunately I found my own Autumn some time after.
I always thought it was a movie about the expectations we place on the people we love. They both wanted something different and thought they could change the other. Tom wanted a picket fence with Summer and thought if he loved her enough and for long enough, she would want it too. And Summer wanted a fun fling, and she thought that if she kept denying a relationship long enough, Tom would eventually accept it. Summer wasn't ever going to want what Tom wanted, just like Tom wasn't even going to want what Summer wanted. Although they were very similar, this made them immediately incompatible. And then Summer met someone else and she did want those things with him. It would've never happened with Tom. Gosh, I love this movie.
Nothing I find rather fascinating though is the fact that we never really think about how things would be like if Tom summers personality; he would be considered a misogynist.
Great Video. Your thesis statement about neither of them being right sums it up, but I think Tom gets way more hate and I don’t understand it, cause if summer is right then that seems to state that nobody is ever responsible for how their actions affect someone if their words contradict those actions with the “facts”
She is a clear case of narcissism, the fact that she told Tom that she did not want a serious relationship does not give her the right to constantly act like the opposite, she acted like a girlfriend, like a traditional couple, who would not be confused? Above all, knowing that Tom had strong feelings towards her, she chose to ignore all the damage he could do by focusing only on her, she believes that everyone is like her, she takes and let go as if nothing had happened, she approached Tom, She kissed him and knowing that Tom was still in love with her, she invited him to her birthday, simulating innocence with the phrase "I hope you are ready to be friends", yes, Tom is idealistic and obsesed with love, but that is no excuse for use him like a disposable fase, and she did.
I have no respect for people whose FWB/casual hookup/whatever you want to call it pool includes desperate romantically lonely people which Tom so obviously was. She should've never singled him out as a viable candidate for what she wanted. Which was completely fine, but for her whose emotions aren't in it, she has less to lose by whatever people accuse Tom of doing to her. Tom had a lot more. And look, I'm a woman and a feminist, but I don't believe that means woman right man wrong. I hate to say it (No, I really do, usually this argument sucks) but if Tom was the girl and Summer was the guy, people wouldn't shut up about how much he sucks. So spare me the poor Summer routine. I don't even think Tom was right for what he did, he did idealize Summer, but which is worse, idealizing someone who didn't ask for it or taking advantage of someone by everything being on your terms and they get nothing out of it? Summer is the one who sucks worse. *micdrop*
I interpreted it as Summer trying to help Tom and give him as much attention as she could without being in a romantic relationship. I thought she was trying to show Tom that he did not need a romantic relationship. I thought she was trying to get Tom to be a little more open-minded, but he was not. The movie left so much open to interpretation and that is what I liked about it. If you thought Summer was wrong, you can imagine that Autumn gave him the romance and relationship he wanted. Or you can at least imagine that Autumn treated Tom the way women should treat guys like him.
Remember that Summer Finn was based on a real person one of the writers dated (she was called out at the beginning of the film). That's the true horror of the film. We don't get to know what actually happened, who was manipulative or cruel or in the right. Because that's not how real relationships work. And Summer Finn... she was real in some sense. All we can do is interpret out past through a distorted mirror, hoping we get it right and learn the right lessons to not screw up our next relationship. I find this far more terrifying than Lovecraft, or even Synecdoche New York.
FINALLY! I'm tired of seeing all of discussions of this movie about Tom being the "bad guy", but these same people who criticizes him acts the same when they're in love. Also, Summer is really a bitch for inviting an ex (Tom) that she knows he's still has feelings for her to a house party hosted by her and his BF (now fiancé). It's almost like she wants to rub in his face who easily she got over him (or never liked him im the first place).
i feel like we all have met someone like 'summer' at some point in our lives... and it hasn't been the same ever since, thankyou for this video, i always related to tom, and as a person who spends most of his time on the internet, has led me to believe that somehow somewhere i was as fault for idealistic expectations... this video comforted me so much its like a warm hug, thankyou ❤
A point about recognizing red flags… I was in a VERY abusive relationship once. I spotted a big red flag about a week into the relationship. I just… I thought “Maybe I’m exaggerating”. The honeymoon phase is deadly tricky.
I think it's very important for situations like Tom's where he couldn't really do anything about his feelings because it's human nature, to still consider that, while he does what he does, he still needs to be hold accountable for how he handled the relationship. That said the same principle also goes for Summer as she wasn't willing, maybe even not able, to recognize Tom's feelings because she didn't see and feel life that way. Nonetheless she needs to be hold accountable for ultimately abusing his feelings for her own pleasure. What actually strikes me about her is that she found a way to see life through Tom's lense and still didn't feel any remorse for how she handled their past relationship when they met in the park again. In fairness Tom didn't regret his actions either, but he never got to look at it from a different perspective in contrast to Summer
They're both just people, trying to do what seems right at the time, like we all do. I think the writers have really captured this human quality. Great video :)
I saw this movie again after my breakup and my perspective changed. Since I felt like I was in tom's shoes, it wasn't easy for me to blame anyone since tom met another woman at the end, so I believed it was a happy ending for him. However, I think summer is a kind of woman who gets bored quickly, she constantly needs someone (company) in her life but she preaches that being alone is awesome. Because of the failure of her previous relationship, she believes that love is just an illusion
I agree with everything said in the video. I watched the movie recently and found it interesting when she said to him she wanted to keep it casual or was not looking for anything serious and then holds his hand. I immediately thought her action is inconsistent with her words, or giving mixed signals, and that might have led him on or, as sometimes guys do, dismiss the words uttered by girls. I know that when I was younger and when I liked a girl I always tried to look for something that could indicate that she liked me back even though she would never state it because I think on some level guys learn or come to think that girls or women are not usually direct like men can be. That being said, we watch this movie and have the benefit of watching rather than experiencing the progress of a potential relationship from moment to moment, day to day, etc just as Tom and Summer did. Another thing to remember is: life does not come with a relationship manual nor a self-knowledge textbook that explains how either gender behaves and how those with potential disorders or dysfunction goes about dating and so forth. It took time for Tom to realize things about Summer, but the film ends in such a way that it begs the question if Tom will make the same mistakes again with Autumn or not? He might be wiser or more experienced, but will Autumn and him have a better relationship? Or as the name suggests being from the season after Summer, a less intense one or different? Colder?
Some men do that as well. Regardless of gender, this is a huge red flag and the best option is to end the relationship. The sooner you have a healthy relationship, the sooner you realize the summer relationship is just plain in comparison.
summer was a narcissist. she took advantage of tom and hid herself behind the 'i'm not looking for anything serious' when she knows tom loves her so dearly. i hope all the toms in this world got themselves lovely faithful women.
Summer says she's " Sid , in, Sid and Nancy " violent, angry and aggressive, BUT, it's all under the surface. ALSO, She was in a serious relationship and didn't tell Tom at thier friend's wedding.....She can't or won't communicate... ALSO ... Tom asks Summer, " Why did you DANCE with me ? .... You, just do what ever you want " (at the wedding )... I think they did MORE than DANCE. 😉
Summer apologists always leave this out, she was clearly seeing someone else at the time, knew that Tom still had strong feelings for her, and slow danced with him at a f'in wedding... then invited him to a party where she then alienated him...
Great video. I think I remember at the end when Tom and Summer meet she tells him they he taught her to believe in love. Basically their relationship forever changed her.
Last time Tom meets Summer, she tells him she learned to believe in love and that allowed her to find someone else. Then Tom meets Autumn and the audience is left to imagine if Tom gets a happy ending with her. I like to imagine that he fails again because I thought Tom was very unlikeable.
@@RisingRecluse When I watched the movie, I guess it didn't feel to me like Tom had learned very much. But I don't know, thinking back, I'm not really sure why that's what I thought.
Imo this is one of the most important scenes of the movie and sooo under discussed. I think it wraps up the movies thesis perfectly in that 2 young people with their own hangups around relationships learn greatly from one another which allows them to move on into healthier adult relationships
As someone who’s was once in the exact same situation as Tom... Yes, she said she’s “not looking for anything serious”. To only then treat what they had like a relationship. She opens up to him, bonds, goes on dates to record shops & Ikea etc THATS NOT HOW YOU TREAT YOUR BOOTY CALL - Tom(& I) were probably thinking “Against all odds, I’m winning! I’m breaking through!”🥺 Only to be told “No! You’re not”. And really? You’re gonna invite the guy who’s heart you broke to your engagement? THATS SADISTIC 😠
Given that both of them are young, trying to figure out their careers, and trying to make a future that neither one of them has a clear idea of--I think they were both doomed because neither one was clear on what their life path was. This is normal. Few people have perfect life plan in their twenties, and those that do have a plan, find out really fast that it never works perfectly. Then you meet people, who are kind of lost themselves, figuring stuff out--and the only way things work out sometimes is by pure luck. Summer wasn't that compatible with Tom, but I don't think they were too incompatible like some people have suggested; I've seen MUCH more polar opposite couples and they didn't have the "roamnce" that Summer and Tom display. These odd couples still, however, behind closed doors have great intimacy and its no one's business how/why those couples work well together. I don't even think they themselves know they make it work. The film for me has always given me a film depiction of how relationships, romantic as they are, are still work. And a lot of that work isn't enough, you just need more luck in some places, but if that's not there, the best most perfect couples can still end up falling apart.
This is such a good explanation of the underlying emotion. While not sn exact copy, I feel for Tom. Because i have been in situations where I am more romantic than a partner and they entered into the relationship knowing this, and actually pursued me to a degree. Then at a point, the dynamif flips where they don't feel the same way after a level of commitment has been reached. Again, not an exact copy of the plot, but a relatable feeling for sure
This is probably the best analysis of the movie I've seen. It keeps in mind how complex the character is rather than pointing a finger at one or the other. I tried to talk about something like this with my friend, but she dismissed Tom as an incel. I think he had an immature idealization of love and projected it onto Summer, who didn't want the commitment but stuck around anyway for the intimacy she might've craved and he offered.
He had sex in the movie, thus not an "incel" your female friend sounds like a typical immature girl who cannot come up with a valid argument so she resorts to gas lightning and name calling
Ngl this movie shows modern dating in a nutshell. - She wasn't interested in relationships or being anyones girlfriend or wife, but very much enjoyed the relationship "benefits" and the attention. - She was bored and made a 1st (romantic move) on a guy she knew liked her (or at least an idea of her) and used his feelings so she can be less bored. - After breaking things off with Tom she then gets married to the 1st guy that talked with her. Which means she wanted to be in a relationship, just not with him, but just like with real world dating she is the type to gaslight and avoid responsibility for their actions. It's like when you hear "I don't want to be in a relationship" (with YOU part is always silent), but at least in real world those people usually avoid you ater you make a move, meanwhile Summer was the one who started the chain of the events.
There aren’t any villains in this story, people who try and label one of them as a villain is missing the point. Both of them are flawed people who needed to meet each other in order to try and better themselves. It’s just really messy like a lot of relationships and it some of the best one screen depictions of a relationship
Thank you for bringing light to this perspective. When I watched this movie, I always pitied Tom because he seemed to be at the mercy of Summer’s actions and I do agree that it’s easy to empathise with or even bash Tom for being head over heels when Summer clearly had a part in this narrative too. The discourse around this movie just shows that it’s never really one person’s doing for how a relationship turns out.
fuck im so glad someone made a video with a key example like this. when i initally watched the movie i was probably a bit too far on the side of tom and not as understanding as i could've been for summers perspective, i do think people end up going way too far in the other direction without considering how summer (probably unintentionally and not necessarily with bad intent) mind fucks tom in a bunch of ways that lead him on. i would go as far as to say that the heartbreak tom experiences is very much on her as she continuously flirts and acts romantic with him, knowing how he's taking those signals and knowing the relationship he wants with her, and it feels like it mostly comes from her own selfish desire to have fun. summer was inconsiderate, but that's not to say she's solely to blame or that her actions are fully unreasonable and she was sociopathic, just that she handled the situation pretty apathetically given what she understood about tom and how he reacted. once again, tom absolutely is to blame as well and i don't mean to treat him like a child with no responsibility, but i just feel like people give him too much shit unfairly, and i think your video does a pretty job explaining his perspective which i think ironically, is being glossed over, in a conversations about this film
I really loved this movie in high-school. I think a lot of us have experienced both sides. It was really well written, i appreciated the irony of Autumn at the end. Really like life, a never ending story. Interwoven with highs and lows, and happiness in a different way w0e anticipated.
The moral of the story really is don’t rely on women or pixie manic ladies to get you out of a rut. They are pixie manic because they are in a rut as well. No amount of cool girl is going to make your life better. Because we all have wants and needs and the cool girl will eventually be someone a little uncool. Aka. They have needs too, their purpose should not be to make you all better. Coupledom should be reciprocal. Happiness does not come from one person. True that
I stumbled across this movie when I was in a bad spot with the girl I was with at the time. This movie made me see the crap I would be be put through, and finally led me to leaving that toxic environment. This movie is valuable to me because of that
Tom was just a scared little boy who didn't know how to set boundaries. Summer took advantage of him and used him like a toy. Tom threw fits and became toxic towards her. They were both very wrong for each other.
wow. thanks so much everyone for listening to my ideas and having such interesting (& respectful) thoughts in the comments. there are some really great and unique takes in there. i didn't think 100 people would watch this let alone 100,000+. THANK YOU!! maybe I'll actually start making some more of these now ;)
I think it’s interesting you point out how she pursued him after hearing he believed in love as her being cold hearted. I interpreted it as her taking a chance to see if maybe he could change her mind. It seemed like she wanted the relationship to work and to be proven wrong about love from someone who believed in it, but he was more focused on himself and what he wanted from the relationship than who she actually was. (Her telling him something she hadn’t told anyone before just for him to be more focused on himself being special, than what she actually said). Which lead her to feel lonely in the relationship (crying at the movies seeing characters in love), and him being clueless bc he never really saw her. That’s what’s so great about this movie though! So many different and valid interpretations. Thanks for sharing!
The SAME exact thing that happened in this movie happened to me with a girl recently, and seeing people defend Summer kinda bummed me out 😂 I needed this...
I was in both positions as Tom and as Summer. I think they both try to find meaning in life thru love, to be honest. As Tom i was and still am hopless romantic. Fell hard for a guy who showed a stupid act of kindness and meet in a destiny way, like in movies. But it was a dynamic of me being Tom him being Summer. Beautiful moments were there (for years) but also, lots of confusion and going away (hot and cold behaviour). Which is extremly painful and confusing for the person fully invested, you never really lose hope this way and you are tortured at the same time. I have trouble even now getting over it because i was and still am too invested for my own good. On the other hand, when i was in Summer's position, i didn't wanted to toy with the guy's feelings, but i wanted to be with someone in a kind of way. Is flattering when someone likes you that much even when you aren't so interested, it feels good and empowering in a way, plus we generally don't like to be lonely abd knowing someone is there in backgroubd always for us can be reassuring (altho i know, also very selfish), but it makes you wander, what if you give a chance and see if it goes somewhere maybe? I think Summer just like the idea a guy likes her and doesn't want to be alone (even if she doesn't yet bleeive in love). Maybe she tries to believe in love, i think she tried with Tom to see where it goes and if she gets to feel it. Ultimately, it wouldn't have worked because they were much too different and not really compatible. The things that connected them were too shallow, that even Tom can't really put in words whath e likes about her. Yes, even a small stupid thing such as liking the same music can make you fall for the person when you really really want to fall inlove and feel that. And when you are inlove you find every little thing to connect to the other person. But we are like this as humans, we were always in both positions: how many times we fell inlove and it was unrequired, or we've been loved by someone we were not interested? I swear sometimes i feel the universe loves drama )) is a real cruel game and recirpocity in love is soo încredibly rare...one of the rarest things to love at the same level. There's always usually someone who give more and other who takes more. Very very lucky few out there who find real love. But if Summer wouldn't give Tom a chance, she would always wonder "what if" and Tom would ocntinue to idealize her for the rest of his life with the same question for the one who got away. No matter how much suffering went thru at least they got to see both that it wasn't working. And how else they would have onown unleas they went thru it? Yeah it sucks but they both learned something more abour themselves and what they want in love. Summer learned to beleive in love and found her soulmate, and relaized is more about the person. And Tom found someone else and became more gorunded in relaity in realthionship and more mature. What audience is fialing to udnerstand is that this is a win -win for both in the end and no one is really at fault here. They both went thru a human expeirence, perosnal journey and oearn something. Is part of life and it depends how you look at it
Thats exactly the problem. Everyone wants to be with "someone", without regards to who that might be, people enter relationships without knowing the other person because they dont want to feel alone, they want to be with "someone", not him/her. And thats why most relationships fail, no one takes the time to know the other person and jumps into a relationship just to not feel alone, thats fucked up. The day both parties enter a relationship, not because they want to be with "someone", but because they want to be with "THEM", thats when a healthy and loving relationship starts.
@@VonRibbitt indeed, but unfortunatelly we are a generation who doesn't have patience anymore. Not even to work in ourselves and become a better person. If we would work in ourselves first, we would wnter a relationship for the right reasons and give the Best version of ourselves, and not wait to be completed...but nowdays we have too many optoins, we can cange pqrtners tu o quickly and worst of IT all we don't have the patience to really get to know the other person, because that would take Time and effort. Why put in the Time and effeot when You când hop online and change partener as socks, because You didn't lile how he are with a foro or something....and then we wonder why our realtionships are superficial Ana fail miserably... I feel that going thru such experiences Like Tom and Summer can help some of us awaien to a level of maturity If we are able to overcome the pain and accept we cam learn Something significant out of it, and see the ex partner as a person who gave an important lesson, and not the Devil. But people preffer to look at these experiences with resentment and hold onto the paint rather than grow. And i know îs hard, but i do belice this îs the ultimate purpose out of these kind of experiences we have in love. Some of us have to learn the hard way, and others never learn... unfortunatelly we are not all blessed with wisdom from the start, but we have to be willing at least to learn and become better people. A relationship might help a Little, but should never be the used as an excuse to avoid working in yourself as a person. Unfortunatelly i still have friends doing that...
Important lesson of how to not behave or treat someone ? For someone giving a lesson, you would think they are a model or someone I could look up to but no actually if I am thinking of most people I see of my age and older on the market, they are not even people that can teach me good things. Devoid of principles.
As Jordan Peterson said, you cant divorce intimacy from casual sex. You will still feel intimate, you will still feel bonded after fucking. We have been gaslit to think Tom is bad by the new age "no attachment" bullshit.
I used to think summer was the bad guy, then I thought Tom was the bad guy, and now I understand they were just wrong for each other in the long run. They had a good time for a short period and sometimes that's enough.
These are great points. When I first saw this movie, Summer pissed me off because she was so inconsistent. For someone who says she doesn't want a boyfriend, she sure does a lot of shit that says otherwise. Which is why Tom gets mad when she tries to say they're "just friends". Summer realizes that she's kind of been stringing him along and that he's right - they're not just friends. She could just break it off there, but I think she tries to be accountable and goes and apologizes to him because she doesn't want to hurt him. But it's more out of a sense of obligation, and guess what - it doesn't last. So they're both somewhat impulsive but they also just want to be happy and try to do what's right and make mistakes. Sound like anyone you know?
I’ve had this happen to me. They said they don’t want a relationship but won’t stop being cute and keeps on doing it on their own. It’s living hell because it’s works the idea that something will happen soon!! I mean after all actions are more powerful than words right?!
