I remember when I was a young Christian, trying to find Bible verses to prove to friends that sex before marriage was absolutely, concretely forbidden! … And of course only found mentions of “sexual immortality/fornication”. I of course pointed to this and when friends would rebut “where does it say sex before marriage is immoral?” And of course, it nowhere does. So of course I had to twist and pretend that it was this universal code, or just “known” which in hindsight was just absolutely ludicrous. My friends absolutely were right to point that out and cast doubt. But of course I just dismissed them, with their valid points, as “scoffers and mockers”
There are so many interesting topics, sub-topics and rabbit holes that this discussion could follow, and II appreciate Dan's intellectual rigor and focus in discussing this and making it somehow understandable for us mere mortals.
The the guy with the ballcap citing Bible verse after Bible verse is presenting himself as a Biblical expert when he cites to Revolution 21:8 without realizing that their is now Book of Revolution in the Christian Bible, but instead likely meant Revelations.
How do we understand “do not deprive one another of sex except for prayer and fasting” if Paul wanted us to ALWAYS abstain from sex even in marriage unless they needed to curb their passions? Really interested in this topic after escaping purity culture.
Damn excellent. I tried to start a blog making some of these very points some years ago, but really lacked the educational background, social media savvy, and mental fortitude necessary to make it work. I would add that in the US specifically, abstinence took root in the southern states as a means to keep bloodlines “pure,” i.e. to avoid mixed-race children. It was very much a component/enabler of white supremacy.
This is fascinating. My parents are from Kerala, a state in India which is considered part of southwest Asia. Virginity is a big deal there...but that state also has the highest divorce rate as well. Not sure if there's a correlation between those two
@midlevelspecialist7058 are the rates concentrated in older or younger couples and how may it be a direct correlation to a purity culture? Can other social factors and influences be considered?
I found myself pondering how the men of the Hebrew bible would go about having sex before marriage if women were expected to be virgin until marriage, divorce was still a new thing, and adultery forbidden. Who's left?
@@notanemoprog Heh, that or incest. But on a serious note, I'd have to suppose that an unmarried woman who'd lost her virginity would be the only serious option. But would they view such a woman as immoral and thus too dirty to lie with? Also, wasn't the punishment to stone them?
@@penguinman9837 No idea. Probably it was dealt with in the same manner as it is now? Also, did anyone actually follow all those rules? This is what Google has to say "The written Torah never explicitly forbids sex outside the context of marriage, with the exception of adultery and incest. According to Exodus 22:15-16, the man who entices a single woman to have sex must offer to marry her afterwards or the equivalent in compensation, unless her father refuses to allow him."
Widows. There were a lot of widows and no commandments forbidding unmarried men from having sex with them. (The practice of Levirate marriage might reduce the supply of eligible widows and many of them would remarry and become unavailable for casual sex, but not every husband who died had a goel to marry his widow.) There are a few contemporary Rabbis who have gone so far as to encourage the young single men in their Synagogues to explore casual sex with older widows in order to gain the experience needed to pleasure their future brides. Most don't go that far, but will admit that the Torah technically never forbids that course of action and that it is preferable to seducing virgins. Also, divorce was a lot more common in antiquity that you probably think. It was probably more common 2000 years ago than it is today. Rabbi Hillel argued that a man could divorce his wife for any reason, even as simple as overcooking his dinner once, so long as he writes her a certificate of divorce that makes it clear she is now available to have relations with whatever men she wants. His rival Rabbi Shammai took a stricter position, but not quite as strict as that of Jesus, as he would allow divorce not only in case of adultery but also for crimes such as attempted murder. If I remember correctly the rule against seducing virgins only applied to Israelite virgins, so an Israelite man could have casual sex with a gentile woman that he was definitely never supposed to marry.
I don't know if the way is clear on this subject. I consider that the two passages in Matthew (chapter 5 and 19) teach to make no oath. Why do our marriage ceremonies contain an oath then? It says that a woman should not be outwardly adorned with gold and yet the adornment for marriage is a gold ring.
Given that we have demonstrably discarded inconvenient parts of the Bible for centuries, what part(s) can we say are necessary and sufficient to successfully live a righteous life? My money's on the two-sided coin of the Great Commandment. "Love the Lord your God with all your being" and "love your neighbor as yourself." Work on getting those things right, and the rest of the scriptures seem to fail to be necessary. And for those people who have ideas that don't include God, that second part may be all that's necessary.
In God's eyes sex is the marriage. Even in our times you can go through all the ceremonies and if you don't consummate, it's annulled, meaning you never married. There is no sex before marriage violation, only post sexual lack of responsibility.
There are no formalities listed in either the Tanakh (aka: the Septuagint), or the New Testament (NT). However, when reading thru the Tanakh, you see things such as Isaac taking his bride into his tent (Gen 24:67), and much later when the Kingdom of Israel was established, Ruth uncovering the feet of Boaz (possibly having sex with him), and the next day, Boaz declaring marriage in front of the elders at the gate of the city, (Ruth 3:7 - 4:13). And if you study Rabbinical literature, and even look at Jewish Orthodox practices today, the wedding ceremony primarily serves as a public demonstration / celebration of the marriage within the community, but it's not really a marriage until later that day when things are consummated. In fact, in many Jewish Orthodox circles, as soon as the ceremony is over, the bride and groom temporarily go into a private room, the door is guarded, and what happens therein, is nobodies business. And when the newly married couple emerge, the celebrations begin, with men on their side of the room, and women in their section. There's lots of RU-vid videos about this.
@@What_If_We_Tried And that was kind of where I was going by asking the question. Going by the Bible, there's no formal prescription. As you suggest, sex is an expectation, so there's that. One might add a tacit recognition by the community. But for all the Bible says about it, a couple is married pretty much when they deem themselves to be. So when I hear a complaint by Christians about "pre-marital" sex, I know they're talking about sex without the state's and/or church's blessing. Yet they can't point to the Bible to show that any such blessing is required.
@@michaelspeir6086 Yeah, pretty much agree, and Christian societies are too numerous, and fractured to have a consensus, and I haven't looked at ancient Judaic practices enough to know whether or not causal sex, i.e., sex between an Israelite man, and an unmarried Israelite woman was permitted if they were not intending form a pair bond, i.e., marriage. Although Orthodox rabbis that I've talked to pretty much agree, that back in the day if an Israelite man had sex with an unmarried Israelite woman, then that constituted marriage. Meaning that the simple act of coitus constituted / signified a marriage relationship within moral cultural norms. These days, within Torah Observant Jewish communities, touching, e.g., handshakes, or hugging, or sitting next to unrelated members of the opposite sex is forbidden, let alone premarital sex, although it does happen, and there are RU-vid videos about this. Just search for "tefillin dates".
In my Christian country it was normal to be pregnant before marriage within certain groups. So first being sure there would be offspring. Especially farmers community this was the habit.
My wife is filipina she use to eat dinaguan or chococlate meat It has about 10 ounces of pork blood and also pork meat. In her personal devotion time about 20 years ago she felt very impressed to stop eating this and so I encouraged her to do what she feels. She hasnt eaten that since 2001 but she became a pescatarian 7 years ago so eating blood is not an issue anyway..
I think it’s also interesting that no one talks about the sin of remarrying after divorce but I see a whole lot of videos about how “true Christians” should not attend gay weddings
The root of the word Porneia means "price" and the earliest references to it as very clearly refer to prostitution with a clear quid quo pro of sex acts for money, often with a slave girl or a poor woman who is economically forced into sex work. (Porne meant a female prostitute, while Pornos could refer to a male prostitute, a pimp, or sometimes a man who hires a whore.) Well before the New Testament was written the term had come to be used much more loosely. It could refer to whatever sexual behaviors the speaker wanted to condemn, which could vary greatly based on who was using the term. On one extreme we have certain Stoics (and Clement of Alexandria, a Christain writer who plagiarized Stoic works) who would extend the term Porneia to include most sex between married couples. To them acceptable sex not only had to be only meant for procreation, but it must take place in the dark in a room with no lights or windows and without anyone close enough to overhear and be tempted. (They also held it was immoral for men to shave their beards or for women to own more than 2 pairs of shoes, one pair with hobnails for long journeys and one pair of plain white indoor slippers.) On the other end of the spectrum there were those who only allowed the term Porneia to be used for what we would call sex trafficking and would argue that there was nothing wrong with having relations with Hetairae. Literally meaning "Companions," these higher-class independent sex workers would include what we would call escorts and sugar babies. They were educated women typically skilled at entertaining through conversation, poetry recitals, musical performances, dancing, etc. Hetairae often chose to sex with their clients, but there was not an explicit quid pro quo of money for sex. Hetairae accepted lavish gifts or sometimes charged men for the amount of time they would spend together, but the client could not demand that that time be spent on sexual activity if the woman was not interested. Many Hetairae were independently wealthy and could afford to be very selecting in choosing their clients.
Thanks for this, really interesting. Two ideas I had - Porneia/Pornos is more akin to the modern use of Pervert in that it refers to anything that the speaker finds deviant but is not specific to any act. Another suggestion is that for the Hetairae according to your definition might be suitably rendered to courtesan, although that is now probably an archaism itself.✌
Paul wanting everyone to be celibate would violate Gods command to be fruitful and multiply. Paul says a number of things for which there is no 2 or 3 witnesses, which negates what he says.
So then what would "thou shall not commit adultery" refer to? Just being with another man's wife and not premarital relations? Didn't the OT say that if you do premarital you have to marry the girl?
I'm pretty sure the old testament passage is if you rape a girl then you must marry them and pay money(fifty shekels of silver) to the dad for damaged goods. Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Yes and yes, actually. Adultery in the OT is only sex between a married woman and a man other than her husband. Sex between two unmarried people is not, ever, adultery. Neither in the New Testament nor the Old Testament. In the NT it's fornication/porneia and in the OT it's just that the Law says you have to get married. It's not necessarily even sinful - there's just a consequence.
@@midlevelspecialist7058 I think in the logic of the passage the 50 shekels are the dowry and it's consensual. I mean there is also the law of the woman screaming out in the city vs the countryside. I think at least later on, this was often taken to refer specifically to consensual relations
@@fluffysheap Exodus 20:29 says "Because he has humiliated her, he may never divorce her as long as he lives." If we take this to mean consensual premarital relations, seems like a (definitely very small) punishment. Though the sin could be that he goes over the girl's father's head instead of coming to ask for her in marriage.
I keep forgetting the original apocalyptic vision of the return of the Jewish god was about defeating the Romans in a final big battle, with their god's assistance, at Megiddo, hence the Armageddon that the christians are always looking forward to. It does appear to be a tad anachronistic to still be anticipating a final battle with our Roman overlords, but then that's what you get when you are still hung up on this ancient cult. I get that this is a side issue for Dan, he has nothing to say about what anybody chooses to believe, his interest is only in what the ancient texts actually say and mean. The latter being the most difficult and equally the most interesting because only then do you get to understand that ancient culture and how all this came about.
Fornication is never defined by the Bible ✝. It does necessitate: • Married 💒 humans can do it • It is distinct from adultery Which contradicts every explanation I have ever had from Christians ✝. Worshiping other Gods makes more sense and actually makes sense with the Bible ✝. Not the only option though. I think more likely options are allowing demons to possess you, or a subtle nod at humans' destructive lust ❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥 for morality 😇. Though, there is no clear answer is the right answer, but *all usual* answers are dead ☠ wrong. It cannot mean having sex before marriage in the New Testament. And would be very weird to mean it in the Old Testament without ever stating sex before marriage is wrong in words.
I imagine most civilisations forbade sex before marriage. I mean I live in China and sex before marriage was made legal only a few decades ago. We are not a Christian nation…far from it.
@@mikey1305 you should not look at Women with lust. If you masterbate you think lustful about other women or look at them in porn. This is false. Mathew 5:27-30
Concerning the last few minutes of discussing social relevancy; there is one thing that seems to be missed consistently by the Dr. There really is no preponderance of evidence that se before marriage is good or bad from the scientific community. As is becoming all to common most papers read as if they were written before any research started. That does, of course, leave the option open to abstinence before marriage being the most beneficial life choice, and perhaps Paul and other new testament authors were lead by God to advocate for a healthy lifestyle.
Well, except in the cases where the couple is sexually incompatible which results in either divorce, or misery and infidelity. They could have found out in the first place and avoided all that.
@@ronjones1414 Well, you also have to take into account all the young girls whose fathers sold them into slavery. They were used for sexual purposes by married and unmarried Israelite slave owning men. Repeatedly. That's why they weren't set free like the male slaves. See Exodus 21.
The Tiktoker was rebutting what Brandan was claiming. He didn't make any references to rejecting other parts of Paul's sexual ethics and he didn't say that he eats meat. So those are some broad and, honestly, totally irrelevant critiques used to try to diminish the Tiktokers credibility--even though at the beginning you conceded the verses he quoted where accurate.
We both know that guy's not a vegetarian, and we both know that he does pick and choose because there are many laws and instructions within the Bible that directly go against modern conservative evangelical morality.
No freaking way. I know that guy towards the beginning rattling off all the verses in the blue. His mom told him when he was young that his “antenna” would “activate” when God was sending him a message. Interference would lose signal forever so no touch. It wasn’t till after he got married that his wife said that didn’t sound right. He will never get that lost time back. No laughing at a jerk joke. He won’t get it. That’s why he is so mad about it all this. I don’t know him personally he reminded me of that exact person though. Did I say I knew him? I don’t think I did.
It's amazing how much truth is left out due to Dan's fear of engaging with LDS doctrine on this subject, as well as other subjects. But sexuality is by far his favorite. It honestly leaves a person with a simple half-truth with regard to sexual sin. I even see in the comments across his videos how viewers are thrilled with Dan's interpretations of sexuality because it leaves the doors to premarital sex and homosexuality wide open. I wonder if Dan fully appreciates his covenants to proclaim the complete truth as much as he appreciates his social standing.
I find it amazing how you are not satisfied with critiquing Dan's argument, and instead must include your psychic visionary assessment of his feelings to which you have no access.
@@ninetails1553 As I already specified, "Dan's fear" is just you pretending to be able to read minds. The ostentatious explaination of sticking to the professional scholarship is a better fit for the available data, but not to your opinion. That is an evidentiary basis for you to change your opinion, not for you to double-down on your prejudice. I'm not going to engage with your criticisms of his argument whatsoever. It's your use of an unreasonable strawman of his motives that I condemn.
@@BradyPostma Of course you won't engage. Everything Dan says fits a narrative that you most likely refuse to deviate from, even when presented with additional truth. Convenient and easy.
@@ninetails1553 Of course you won't acknowledge your own errors. Your supernatural insight into others' inner world must be upheld above all else. And of course it is completely worth everyone else's time to contend with your unrepentant magical thinking. Address the beam in your own eye, then you can see clearly to discuss the mote in others'.
@@penguinman9837 Well there is that possibility... better though would be to ask what kind of literature we're talking about in the first place, and maybe we should also rid ourselves of the fantasy that it can only ever mean one thing (which is what we think it ought to be, whatever that is.)
@@StevenWaling Oh, I completely agree. Most good scripture will have multiple levels of fulfillment. But when we are allowed to pick and choose what a scripture means when it means it when it's most convenient for our particular ideology... well, 70,000 Christian denominations is the obvious result. This is a problem; and really the elephant in the room when it comes to Christian religion.
I used to say all this stuff. It pushed me as far away from Christ as I’m sure you are, while you deploy Him as a straw man to dismantle the very things He died for. You need prayer
The funniest part is that you are too dense to realize that Dan is a Christian and does believe in Christ. To you, if one looks at the Bible critically, then they can’t possibly be a believer? How dense are you? So you not understand the difference between theology and biblical studies?
