Technical correction: the front end breaking traction before the rear is known as understeer, not oversteer. Sources: Carroll Smith Drive to Win; Paul van Valkenburgh, Race Car Engineering and Mechanics; Carroll Smith Tune to Win.
I don’t know where you got your information about motorbikes, but they are using the rear brake for trail braking as well not just the front, since the rear brake is used on both types of bikes to help stabilize the bike in corners and load the front tyre with more precision.
If done correctly you use front brake or better both brakes. Watch the video I have linked. Bret Tkacs is one of the best motorbike instructors out there.
@@michaelpfister3572 it depends on your braking style of course, but trail braking is just a result of your style. since trail braking is just bringing your braking force more into the corner, for more grip on the front tyre. all you do is gradually come off the brakes that u are using later. Also the matter of the fact that the rear brake is there to stabilize your bike still stands and since this is about bicycles modulating in the corner is only possible with the rear brake, not the clutch which is only available on motorcycles.. (this video also explains it well: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-A4B9Sp1T78Y.htmlsi=6zvc9wSx0-AfNytr)
that leaning part is wrong. if you look at pidcock descent, he's not leaning IN but leaning OUT. This puts more weight onto the outside pedal, so your bike becomes a second-class lever. that makes Dylan Cooper wrong (for road cycling, since trail cornering is different).
How I improved my descending speed and confidence: - Get the right frame size - Get wider tires - Hold in the drops - And the actual tip: Put almost all your weight on your outside leg. Almost lifting your butt from the saddle. FWIW, if Pidcock was too upright at 10:08 whilst going right, he'd fall to the left (outside) ;)
Trail braking is different for motorcycles because riders use it to alter the actual physical geometry of the bike. Hard front braking compresses the front forks, which alters the wheel position and decreases trail. Obviously less trail makes for a more agile handling bike. We call it "flickable". By using trail braking you can essentially extend your straightaways (carry more speed, late braking), and "flick" the motorcycle over quickly but smoothly just before the apex. So what I'm saying is, proper trail braking cannot be done on a bike that does not have suspension. The benefits do not outweigh the risks.
Looking at this, I think it’s almost impossible to reach the limit of grip in clean situations. The danger comes from when you encounter a surprise obstacle halfway through the corner/
From point of basic physics it makes no difference whether you lean the bike or the body, however ... Leaning the bike has limitations on GP motobikes so they lean the body, also suspension maintains better grip when bike is up. In motocross or MTB you lean the bike since it allows faster reaction and side switches and there is not much limitation to lean the bike, except tire shape. On road bicycles it does not matter very much. Its more psychological. The difference in lean angle between bike and bicycle has 2 main reasons. One is suspension, the other is larger contact patch which maintains some grip when you lose grip on parts of the patch. On bike you have more contact space left, ln bicycle all grip is easily lost on smallest dirt spot or bump.
Love this more elaborate and explicative approach to descending -It hasn´t been done like this. Almost all the videos are "Pro tips to descend faster!", so having this type of content is a real gem. Thanks!
Great Video. Looking foreward to part 3. I disagree a little with your statement that trail breaking on motorbikes is done exclusively with the front break. I sure use both breaks, it's much safer on public roads. Bret Tkacs does explain this very well in this video if anyone ist interested: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-KHl_7WpCWok.html
Trail braking allows you to brake later for a corner. Tyres can provide braking, acceleration and cornering - each separately but in combination only a combination of acceleration and cornering or braking and cornering. If you’re on maximum braking there is no support for cornering left so one has to ease off some of the braking as you add lateral force to the tyre (i.e. cornering). As the cornering radius decreases, the more lateral support one needs from the tyre and the less braking one can have so one eases off the braking as the lateral force needs increase. At least that’s been my experience from both motor racing and from being an idiot descending on my bike
I think this video can cause accidents. Stability during cornering is everything. A roadbike with its stiff frame, without suspension can suddenly change its grip level due to changes in road surface. In addition using this technique on a motorcycle is usually reserved for racing on a closed surface or the recover from going in a corner to hot. Roadsafety coarses for a motorcycle will never teach this. And you want to advocate this technique for a roadbike during a downhill event on a public road. Good luck and succesfor you, but do not advocate this
where do you get data from pidcocks descent? I understand lean angle can be measured visually and there’s probably software that will output it, but bike GPS data is hot garbage (poor resolution and massive deviation from one unit to another) in my experience compared to what comes out of motorsport systems that I’m used to. (AIM, Motec, Cosworth etc)
Lean angle is also governed by contact patch, wider tyres will allow a greater lean angle at the same or higher speed. hanging the inside knee out will help weight transfer to the inside allowing you to hang off a little more and in turn keeping the bike at less of a lean increasing the tyre contact patch. dropping your head and shoulders to the bars and attempting to "kiss" your mirrors(from riding motorbikes) will again give you lower centre of gravity meaning less lean angle is required to corner at the same speed.
Watch MotoGP and learn. The principals are the same. At speed, lean your body more than the bike. If you are doing this and you start to slide, you can recover. If you are leaning the bike and start to slide, you are on the ground instantly. Front brake is always more important than rear, learning to apply and feather both brakes is the most important.
That doesn't hold true for pedal bikes where riders tend to lean the bike much more and stay more upright relative to the bike (see Pidcock). A road bike is 6.8 kg and very easy to manipulate whereas a motorbike obviously isn't and it's easier for the rider to shift their weight than the bike. The forces needed to corner on a road bike are obviously way less and it's easier to manipulate that shift in weight with a 7kg bike than your 70kg body where a small change can have big consequences. It's far easier to lose grip on a road bike because the contact patch is far smaller and the speed far slower so leaning over too much will cause the bike to slide out.
