The Ineos Grenadier has been created to replace the original Land Rover Defender that went out of production in 2015. What I want to know is how would it cope with being my only farm car?
I have watched a fair number of Grenadier reviews by this point. Your experience, objectivity, and honesty are a refreshing change -- Thank you Harry !
@@richardharrold9736 don’t be ridiculous … every video scans like a JLR advert (fair to be that way because as a RR owner they are lovely) but be less obvious
The “Charger for some reason” under the back seat is actually a dual battery management system. It will protect your starting battery if running a fridge etc while camping. Quite good to be a factory option.
Seems like a waste of space and seat compromise for most owners who don't run a fridge etc. Should be an option. As you can't fold the seats flat, you can't camp in it anyway !! Fridges also have voltage cutoffs, and anyone serious about camping would fot a lithium leisure battery because lead acid and agm aren't suitable for continuous low current discharge. It kills them
A few viewers have pointed me here, so if I can offer a couple of clarifications. I also found the cross-axle lockers slow to disengage - INEOS tell me that they actually disengage quickly, but the indicator light only goes out when there is a speed difference on left and right wheels. Hence you need to turn to get the light to go off. This is far from ideal, but not impossible to live with. Also, I would not recommend driving across your field with the cross-axle lockers engaged even when muddy. The reason is that you'll get huge understeer and therefore drag, which will increase the chances of a bogging. Instead, I'd suggest simply relying on the Grenadier's brake traction control which does an effective job in such conditions, and does not impede turning ability.
I was driving a Mitsubishi around Oman a couple of months ago and I didn't see many Land Rovers, I asked why there were so few Defenders and Discoverys in that part of Arabia and answer was quite simple, RELIABILITY! If you are driving in the Arabian Desert everyday you can't risk suffering an unfixable electrical problem.
@@nothingtoseaheardammit The thing about that is you can buy all of the parts from the chassis up to make a new one so its simple to keep them going apart from a Willys Jeep there are not many cars/trucks that you can do that with.
Definitely a niche vehicle, I definitely appreciate its simplicity and the notion that I won't need a doctorate of electrical engineering to keep the thing going for 20 years. I can't say the same about the new Landies. Don't get me wrong I quite like the new defender. But I do appreciate the simplicity of this car, and the accesorizing is quite appealing. I will definitely concede by the looks of it, it won't be great on road. Edit: From a Canadians perspective btw this is very exciting since the original defender was never sold in Canada. And to basically be able to buy a "defender" here is a neat notion.
I truly wish Grenadier all the best in making this a long-term success. The world deserves a car like this now that the Defender has become what it is - hopefully there is enough market for it.
I’d buy it if it started at about $58,000 add the lockers and a tow package and it came in right at about $63,000 USD I’d be a buyer all day long but an entry point of $70,000 without the tow package and lockers is nuts.
I'd personally hoped that the world deserved better then a 70k "work horse" pumping out 19mpg. Luckily it does and we've had the Hilux for years costing half the price and performing far better in the intended role
I cannot drive past a 2023 Defender without thinking (unlike its predecessor): are you a Hairdresser, a "Surrey Mummy", a Metrosexual... If Grenadier get this right (never mind the French factory), the farming, Equine and authentic community will follow.
@@danielw5850 I’ve got one, and I’m a builder, use it as a van, seat covers, no high end leather/carpets etc . all tools and crap just fit in back, and sometimes 400kilos or more of bags of cement etc, you hardly notice the weight. Then at wk ends it’s near Range Rover levels for comfort for journeys. There’s nothing out there like it. (And never had problem with it in 3 years)
we dont need old tech on new cars do we?. i think any of us could kinda do that tho. its esentiually a budget option to those landrovers etc but priced close tho their ranges
I’m really glad they are building this. I hope more companies do something similar but with sports cars. Give me a v6/8, RWD, 6-speed sports car with limited tech.
I actually have a Trailmaster Grenadier. My comments are as follows. Lots of good things. I agree with Harry that there is a great lump where you you want to put your left foot owing to the exhaust routing. The bonnet release catch is on the passenger side too. These two facts suggest that the car was principally designed with left hand drive in mind. There is no grab handle on the driver's windscreen pillar as there is on the passenger side - if this was deemed to be obstructing the driver's view then put a folding handle in place (similar to the one on the inside roof). The lack of a flat load space is a disapointment, but this should be easily fixed by adding something like a pallet to level things up. I guess if there is sufficient demand Truckman will produce a slide out accessory to compensate this. I don't think that the split rear door is a problem - apparently there was a weight issue with a single door. It's a pity that Ineos didn't ask ordinary people who owned similar vehicles for their comments in the development stage rather than having celebrities like Harry Kane and other footballers posing with the vehicle. The steering is odd and I suspect that it just takes getting used to. My previous vehicle was a HiLux and in terms of road use drove more car like than the Grenadier. Horses for courses maybe. The problem with the HiLux steering geometry is that if you hit a rut off road it would throw the steering all over the place, this would not be the case with the Grenadier's set-up. In terms of price, I started the purchase in the early stages of the vehicle's development and my Grenadier cost around about £60k including some extras - Ineos were very fair in holding their launch prices for those who put down deposits in the early stages.
A couple of minor points that he should know before doing a review, as he is extremely experienced and knowledgeable about vehicles. He wants rack & pinion steering but this vehicle has a live beam front axle. So it would have to change to IFS. You can lock the diffs on any slippery surface, such as grass, but not needed in this case. He has the vehicle in high range and you would never lock the diffs in high range on any vehicle, you would only do it in low range, it isn't possible on this to lock front or rear diffs unless in low locked centre. This feature reduces the number of morons using it. It looks like he doesn't have the centre diff locked at all when going up the slope, however I can't tell 100%. Either way it made it fairly easily except he backed off the throttle, for some reason, near the top. Had he engaged centre diff low locked it would have walked up there easily. Jabbing away at the roof buttons just made him look like a fool, which he definitely is not!
@iainbaker1439 I have driven one off road and on road and we must have been in different vehicles. Lambo seating position is low with legs almost straight out. In this you crank the seat up high and close and it is more like sitting in a chair. Steering has a line on top of the steering wheel and also an electronic display of where the wheels are however I didn't need either. Having owned utes/pickups they are great but useless if you want a station wagon. Possibly check out a real offroad review ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-KTgupbbRfog.html instead of this bullshit review.
I lock the rear diff on my Ranger without being in low range all the time. Half the time I don't even bother putting it in 4Hi, just leave it in rwd. I understand that the systems probably work different on different cars. I'm just saying needing to lock the center before front or rear is not universal. Though I don't think you'd ever want to lock the front without also locking center and rear in any car.
@@rightwingsafetysquad9872 Not sure which model Ranger you have but I thought their diff-lock automatically cut out above about 30kmh. Maybe that is just on the newer versions with e-locker. I could see in your case it would really help as the Ranger is only a rear wheel drive as standard (not a negative) however the Grenadier is constant 4wd. So escalation for difficult terrain could be, just 4wd high nothing locked, 4wd high centre locked, 4wd low nothing locked, 4wd low centre locked, rear locked , front locked. Lots of options. You can drive in 4wd low up to 70kmh, unlocked on hard surfaces and locked on loose. Or locked on hard surfaces if you have excess money.
@@DavesIneosGrenadier I have a 2019. It will not allow engaging the locking diff over a certain speed, but I'm not sure that it will unlock itself if you exceed that speed after locking it. Regardless, you should be able to lock the diffs without engaging low-range. Low range is not for low traction environments, it's for low-speed environments. For example, I would not engage low-range going up that hill. Most trucks actually disable all electronic traction aids if you put it in low-range.
70 grand....the reality is that there isn't going to be much crossover between the people who want this kind of car and the people who can afford this kind of car.
I thought exactly the same, although I have heard the case made that commercial buyers will view this as having a longer service life and therefore be cost-effective in the long term. But making a Defender look reasonably priced is quite a trick to pull!
Well, I take a step back and ask who exactly would *Want* a car like this? As a farm vehicle, its too expensive, and as a luxury 4x4 it fails there too. I don't know what's going on, but either way its bloody expensive for what it is.
I completely agree, but the reality of manufacture in 2023 is that you simply can't make a utility vehicle at the price most of it's potential customers can afford
I believe you need to lock the centre diff before engaging the rear and front diff lockers. The weight is similar to a Landcruiser with similar specs. It's great to get an informed view of the shortcomings of the vehicle. I like the new defender and was very interested in getting one. My observation is there have been a number of owners with significant failures within short periods after taking delivery. This put me off purchasing one. Maybe this has been resolved, as they have been around for a little while. I recently priced one after watching Harry's other video, and they are more expensive for a similar level of equipment. Luxury car tax alone adds another $11k to the Defender's price.
Did he not lock the centre diff? If that's true, this reviewer shouldn't be taken seriously when reviewing 4x4 vehicles. Common knowledge to anyone who has experience with 4x4 that you should lock the centre diff prior to engaging cross axle diffs. ps: I have no idea who he is. Cheers from OZ
@@cyclemoto8744 it appears to have many, many issues... sufficient to render it an unviable purchase and uncompetitive in the market, arguably unsafe to drive...
I broke my finger in two places hitting a rock offroad so I would accept the extra turning to avoid that 😅 I've always preferred mechanical high / low diffs etc as you can put weight on the lever and feel when it drops in rather than looking for a flashing light. People are buying them, I've seen a fair few around. However commercially I would be surprised if a business would buy one over a pickup just because of the cost. Most pickups are good enough off road for the job in the uk but half the price. I like the idea but can't see me buying one. 👍
totally. this would literallyrock it at those prices and to me thats wher tis hould be priced. if it isnt viable, then it isnt viable as a business really
I can answer this question - I bought an Ineos to use to get around on farmland and IT DOESN'T WORK. Reason - the vehicle has been at the dealer for 5 weeks and counting whilst Ineos Technical continue to fail to resolve a non-working cabin heater and aircon. The Customer Service people told me that fixing my car is a priority, and that an Aftermarket Manager would personally resolve this issue. Nobody contacted me, an Ineos will not share the manager's contact details. Also - Ineos will not lend me a replacement 4x4. Why would they - I have paid in full and have no leverage. I wrote recorded delivery to Ineos CEO Lynn Calder to try to get some traction on this issue. 10 days later, and no response from the boss. So, like the rest of her organisation - she doesn't care.
Again, a nice review Harry, this time about a very brave attemp to put a car like this on the road. As a massive fan for all Land Rover i am intrigued by the Grenadier but i can not get used to its cluttered and messy design, tried hard to however ...and still trying...
As someone who has committed to and is dead keen on this vehicle, I have my own bias obviously. Even with that though I dont think this was a great review. The garage review you did I can accept because you were reviewing it for a different purpose. In this one, the only off roading you did in it was a grassy field and one hill, and even that you couldn't be bother to work out how to engage the diff locks. It was at this point it became obvious that you had already made up you mind on the vehicle. The road test that you said you were not going to talk about here as it was the subject of your garage video, you then spent more time on the road and basically re-posted that at the end anyway (to pad this out?). For the rest of us, front and rear diff lock options from factory are a big thing. Live axels are a big thing, factory winch is a big thing (even if you dont option it) wired accessories, rear power, roof power, driving lights, off road tyres, dual battery (that you also didnt understand) from factory are all a big thing. It's clear this review was just content and you neither care to, nor understand this vehicle.
Bollocks. He had the centre diff locked as per the manual, the front and rear simply failed to engage. He did what off roading he can on his own farm. No excuse for it to be live axle now when all the competition are at least IFS and most IRS too. It's the best part of a ton too heavy to be any good off road...
I have heard that that , in South Africa , they will offer an optional recovery pack that will in UK money cost about £50000 , to recover this electronic festooned beast with no problem , its called a Toyota Land Cruiser 76 station wagon , loaded to the hilt with heavy duty off road suspension , bull bar , winch , offroad rear bumper , bash plates , upgraded snorkel ect . As , if Land Rover is anything to go by , it will break down with alarming regularity due to the liberal over use of chinese lucky packet electronics , those thing are really fine in road cars , not designated off roaders .
Overall it is impressive that the Grenadier made it to market, it’s the first unit they made so I have to believe it will improve, I’m not someone who would want so much specification so look forward to the commercial variant, but first impressions are important and mine are not very positive.
I agree and to be fair, if this is to be considered the first version, with all its faults...I don't think it'll be long before this characterful behemoth becomes a list-topper for wealthy farmers, hunters and even places like australia and NZ
Great review Harry, very fair and unbiased. I fear that Ineos is trying to satisfy too many different customer groups. I thought the original intention was to provide a Defender clone at a reasonable price suitable for use on farms, Construction and the like. Here we have a vehicle loaded with all sorts of gizmos trying to compete with a myriad of other 4x4 offerings which I understood was never the primal intention of this vehicle!
I’ve just driven the new 110 off road and it was fantastic, insanely capable, if I needed one I’d buy one, only issue is longevity, will they still be on the road in 30+ years time like the old one?
@@Jabber-ig3iw To be fair the only reason any of the old ones are on the road is because people loved them and threw money at them, when all good sense and logic would say "buy something else!". If your heart said yes, no reason not to go for it and enjoy yourself.
@Jabber 1974 at least when Sir Jim returns home to his native sod he has the native subjects bending the knee to his good Sir ,yes Sir Jim no Sir Jim .
@@vic6820 I have a disco commercial, let’s be fair, as the seats fold flat in the ‘car’ version, the only reason the commercial exists is to reclaim vat & massively reduce bik (if you pay it at all).
@@thomascole9308 The commercial doesn’t qualify in the case of Grenadier, but it certainly should, because they can only sell 1700 of the non-commercials in the UK and a similar proportion in Europe out of a maximum of 30,000 annual production from the factory. That’s until they start producing zero emission vehicles. In the UK all vehicles sold more than 1700 must be DVLA registered as commercial vehicles but they will not manage that because VAT is not recoverable on them. They do not qualify according to HMRC rules. If the five seater did qualify I would continue with my order because a commercial vehicle is what I want and what it would be used for. Farm work with mostly tools and medicines and paperwork carried in the second row but with occasional capability to carry up to four of us between farms to move stock etc. It would also suit many utility companies but I doubt whether they would consider a vehicle that could not recover some £10k of VAT from when they can save between £20k and £30k by buying more Ford, Isuzu, VW pickup units.
@@InspirationSessions For Harry’s Farm, I’d pass on the Rivian, I think it’s more lifestyle vehicle or Chelsea Tractor. I’d probably reserve the Rivian for Harry’s Garage!
@@commuterbranchline8132 not sure how it would cope with proper British mud, this is true. What Americans think of as mud and what we in the UK think of as mud is often not the same thing, in my experience...
I think Harry missed the fact that this vehicle is designed as a keeper and not throw away like the new defender will be once it hits old age and high mileage. Radcliffe is expecting to see Grenadier’s with 500,000 miles on the clock, so yes it has less thrills than its rivals but it’s engineered to be infinitely repairable. So many people bought a defender new back in the day and still have it now, that is the big point for me. You can’t have everything!
Good luck getting 500,000 miles out of such a vehicle when the fuel transition will probably make it too expensive to run within ten to fifteen years. Especially with the likely repair costs of the BMW engines and whatever else is included, which isn’t much less complicated electronics than the Defender if you think about it. All the emission and safety gubbins are included on both vehicles. Both will need very deep pockets to run in the long term regardless of the availability of on-line parts books.
@@Aliasify It's certainly true that most modern vehicles are throwaway, I recently spoke to a van and car hire company manager. He said that he would not keep any new vehicle on his books or personally for more then a 100,000 miles. Current complexity was too prone too fail and too difficult to repair. Considering the heavy industry needed to make them throwing away vehicles early is probably the most environmentally damaging thing that we can do.
How many people are going to be repairing this vastly complex BMW powertrain with its gamete of sensors, computers, and other electronic trickery without the assistance of very expensive diagnostic equipment? This vehicle has the veneer of utility, but you will still need VERY deep pockets to keep it running. When those electric gremlins start appearing I wonder how long Radcliffe will stand behind his "expectations".
Spending an eye watering amount of money to make a vehicle that very few people need or want seems complete madness to me. Trying to out Land Rover with a cut price ‘land rover’ and charge more for it is barmy. Then there’s the issue of the short life span of 7 years given ICE cars are finished in 2030. He needs to sell a lot of cars in that short time frame to get his investment back surely? I just can’t follow the maths with this 😢
The steering is like that to bring back fond memories of old defenders 1/2 turn play in it 😂😂 I learned to drive in the Army in an Air portable .. and the steering was a guessing game..
Looks solid and functional. But they should have pitched it below the price of the new defender to woo buyers away from new defender. Most farmers need a workhorse to do the dirty work on their farms...
This car is an off roaders dream vehicle! Unlike Harry, I want to decide when I will have my diff locks on or off; I won’t mind controlling the steering manually as I soar across the planets deserts and through its forests, and I’m more likely to park up in a game reserve than at Tesco. If that bmw engine can prove itself tough at -40 degrees c and +40 deg C, it will be a world beater that won’t leave me stuck if the air suspension compressor fails on the Canning Stock route or the Darien Gap or somewhere in Omans mountain regions. Driving across a farmers field is not off roading, and THIS is an off road vehicle.
@@johnverzi5783 he engaged them correctly, they just failed to lock. And as for the rest of the comments above... laughable. Nobody is going to take this overweight hippo into the Darien Gap, the BMW engine alone guarantees that they won't want to take the risk. It's downright dangerous on road and mediocre off road. It will sell in tiny numbers to rich collectors.
Glad I have bought my secondhand G wagen diesel 2013 .. diff lock’s simple 96 l tank … certainly would not buy the Grenadier at the price quoted… the left foot restriction would drive me mental as would the back door… good effort Jim but better out there on full beam axles .
Manual locking differentials (front, centre and rear) are much more robust and simpler than any automatic traction system. Its the off road gold standard.
Harry as what we would call a gentleman farmer, is spoilt with all the fancy, expensive vehicles he drives on a daily basis. For his use on the farm a Golf will probably do. The Grenadier in my opinion is designed for much tougher work and to last much longer than a Hilux or Ranger, As a South African, I'd love to use one going into the bundu. I'm sure it will come into its own there. As for steering, how on earth do you want to mount a rack and pinion system to a live axle?
What nonsense. Anyway, the Grenadier should have been designed with independent front suspension from the off and then it could have had decent steering. There’s life beyond live axles!
If or when spending around £60,000 or £70,000 then I would not expect such a long list of negative points. 36 cars listed on Autotrader at the time of writing. I am a private buyer and cash buyer so I will have to wait couple of years see how prices are by then. I also like the Toyota Land Cruiser - which I understand has been very very well proven in Australia. I will see how price of Grenadier is in 3 years time.
7:18 This is where the battery should have went, most vans and big SUV do it that way. Not easely accessable and worse for weight distribution but it gives you space under the rear seats to fold them properly. Some flaws can be corrected with some adjustments, the high weight will always be an issue. Alos those bMW engines need some attention, with that narrow engine bay/ hood opening its gonna be difficult to get to engine stuff... 7:40 Starting with a key could be a second option, but I rather have it keyless starting. No fumbling around with a key while working.... 8:08 The little screen in front of you should atleast show the speed, a rugged Offroader should have gauges in front of you. Semms like cost- cutting to me....
Finally got round to watching the farm related review on this. Have you considered borrowing a Toyota Landcruiser commercial as I have noticed there have been a few new ones sold of recently along with the passenger variants.
Looks like a Farmer Poser Motor. The front "bumper" looks like a massive lump of plastic. Not being able to flatten the backseats down is absurd. Ridiculously cluttered and pointless central display. Turning circle over 13m ! Can't take a tonne in the back ? They are still marketing an overly complex "toy car" for the monied folk to visit the golf course and the country club. Get an early 2000's Ford Ranger for £10k or far less, if you want a proper working vehicle.
Today marks two full weeks awaiting a response from Ineos for a rejected vehicle, that was returned 3 weeks ago. Their own Customer Services department can’t get a response from “management” at HQ. No comms, no refund, hands down the worst automotive customer services experience of a lifetime!
I just don’t believe the naming story, which is repeated every time the car is reviewed. I think they’re trying to beat the Wilkes beach drawing story. What if they’d met in the Dog & Duck? Or perhaps given it’s origins, Le Chien et Le Canard..
Good review as always. I'd be interested to know how many prospective purchasers are also watch enthusiasts who, on the watch forums rail against Patek or AP homages and the motives of their purchasers. Something for the sociologists and marketing wonks to study I suppose
This review seems a bit similar to your Harry’s Garage one. I was expecting to see you out on the farm a bit more, hauling equipment around, not just going up one hill and then on to the roads.
I watched the Harrys Garage video on this, superb. So I watched this and the only difference is I see it go up a hill over a mound and it is parked in a barn. I was expecting to see it in the water like the Defender. In my view 20 minutes of my time wasted. You could have easily showed it going up the bank in the Harrys garage video. I have watched a few other videos on this and there views are different. The footwell, others do not have a problem with it, you emphasize this, fine it is a view. However, the Countach has a footwell you can barely fit one foot into and you are fine with that. The steering, the issue here is you are used to driving top end performance cars with an instant turn in, this will emphasise your feeling of waywardness and the turns from lock to lock. Understandable, all about the comparison in your mind and what you are used to driving. 200% about modern electronics and 4WD. Who wants to mess around with levers and switches when a modern car will do it for you. I would not buy one. I would buy a Defender if I was in the market for a car of this genre. Cheers.
@@royfontaine5526 A review like this will hand thousands to other manufacturers, Harry is that influential. Hopefully Jim will take it constructively but I doubt it. Harry had the SWB Defender on loan for a long period and he's clearly a JLR man.
Did the people who designed this ever work in the car/truck industry before? Seems like they made several big fundamental mistakes. Difficult to understand how it went into production without those being addressed.
To me it feels like a classic case of micro-manager Ratcliffe wanting personal sign-off on the spec, putting his red pen through pretty much anything more sophisticated than original Defender, Skoda Niva Cossack, etc… Titan of industry he may be but no car mogul on this evidence
Apart from the obvious things that have been pointed out, like the small [near useless] door opening before the big one; the rear seats not folding flat and the rather antiquated steering performance and the drastic footwell that could surely have been avoided by fitting a vertically hanging exhaust system rather than a 45 degree one from the engine and the UK situation of the main versatile ‘commercial’ models not qualifying as such for tax purposes, there’s more. On a global scale it lacks a sufficiently large fuel tank, hence range between refills. Working in large countries with massive areas of remote land requires at least a 1000 mile road range, which translates to possibly half that off-road or towing. There is nowhere on this vehicle that can accommodate an auxiliary tank or a bigger standard tank than that factory fitted currently. It really does need a minimum of a 125 litre fuel tank. My Audi Q7 diesel had a 100 litre tank for goodness’ sake. It, the diesel, may only achieve 18mpgUK in tough conditions, so a 27 gallon [125 litre] tank would barely take it 500 miles. Is that too much to ask of a £70k machine “built on purpose”?
Steering and diffs are a non issue. Any owner will get used to those quirks very quickly. It is a pity about the rest of the flaws, but hopefully they get refined as time goes on.
@@_Ben4810 obviously have never driven a Toyota 70 series. I have owned 2 and they are one of the most popular 4wd’s in Australia. Same steering set up. On all ford rangers, amaroks, dmax, navara, you need to select the diff lock to engage it, as well as the 4wd hi/Lo. So a non-issue and I don’t know why he’s harping on about it… This car ticks all boxes for the typical 4wd owner, besides the price and small flaws like the footwell ect.
@@reubs91 the point is that they were refusing to engage, and in this market, people just expect automatic diff locking... it's way too expensive and not eligible for VAT relief.
@@richardharrold9736 who is asking for auto diff locking? No one is mate, because it’s not offered on many cars, stuff like that is just the common fantasy of car reviewers that are disengaged from reality. I have owned 2x 70 series, 1x Mazda BT50, 1x Ranger Wildtrak, and my current is an Amarok - none of those have had auto diff locks….
@@reubs91 the Defender has auto diff locks. So does the Discovery. They are the competition at this price point - the Grenadier cannot hope to compete with any of your trucks.
Apparently it’s not VAT reclaimable or tax deductible due to payload and various other hmrc legislations it doesn’t meet. So it gonna be expensive for farmers
I agree full marks to Jim Radcliffe for building this, but a farmers truck it ain’t to much fancy electrical stuff and to dear. We will never see the old fashioned work horse again.
The word that i think seems to summarise this vehicle is "Compromise" its just an attempt to try and deal with all the problems that other manufacturers got away from and it looks like you ordered an older defender from Wish, almost a slightly updated version of a D2 rather than a Defender
In the Netherlands this spec Grenadier cost €170.000. Even more expensive then the new Defender. No joke. Not really the “affordable” offroader I was hoping for. Dealbreaker to me.
I'm left with the feeling that Harry has gently done a Clarkson/Vectra on the Grenadier...? Left with the impression that several other cars are better? Niche it is.
My short wheel base original Defender was 2 tonne on a heavier replacement galvanised chassis. It had no frills. Great bit of kit except crap axles that broke half shaft and differentials off road when pushed hard. Gearboxes were a weak point and transfer boxes as well. If all of those issues could have been beefed up, you would have had the perfect utility vehicle. That's the direction the Grenadier should have taken not this overweight hippo that is neither one thing or another. Think back to how great the Hilux was for reliability.
Well, you've hit the intractable problem area. Its a steel frame chassis with a steel body car. If you were to try and make it lighter, you basically need a completely new car. You can't "modify" weight out of a basic design.
This car will always remind me of Brexit and how the British public were asked to leave the EU for the good of British manufacturing by people like Jim Ratcliffe, who then promply left the UK to manufacture in the EU. Thanks Jim.
Such nonsense. The decision was -- as Harry put it quite clearly and impartially -- because Mercedes had just vacated a fully functioning plant in France, which was far easier and cheaper for Ineos to slot their own production line into, than building their own bespoke plant in Wales.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the Suzuki Jimny as a farm car. It seems the antithesis of this car - tiny, barely a tonne, cheap as chips, and puts a smile on your face. Like this, it's objectively terrible, but it doesn't pretend to be anything else. I have a sneaking suspicion you might enjoy it for bouncing around the farm and pooling to the shops.
@b64lewis Yes a quad would work but you would sacrifice any form of storage room and weather protection, so why not just use a dirt bike, plus i don't know the legislation regarding quads in the uk but in greece quads are not allowed in residential areas. With a jimny you can be warm and dry while going up and down on the farm and then you can go to the village to run errands as easily as any supermini, it's not a bad combination of attributes but certainly not a one vehicle solution
The Jimney commercial makes a lot of sense as a small people and tool carrier for a country estate, with good off road capability and superior roadability [though very uncomfortable] compared to something like a Kawasaki Mule or Deere Gator. It isn’t much more expensive either. In other areas it isn’t competing in the same class at all as Grenadier or Defender. It competes more with front wheel drive small French and Italian brand vans when much of the off-road extremes can be avoided, which is most of the time for many potential customers.
N1 Commercial classification means you can drive it on a normal car driving license because it has less than 3.5 tons gross vehicle weight. This vehicle meets that requirement for the DVLA but because it is so heavy unladen, the carrying capacity is limited to at best 800kgs. This means that the so-called ‘certified commercial’ versions, which are the van and utility five seater, just do not qualify as commercial vehicles as far as HMRC/VAT are concerned. Which kills it stone dead as far as many businesses are concerned. For the top two car versions, which are hardly more expensive and have the rear sides in glass rather than steel panels, they avoid the lower speed limits of the panel versions but they are all about or above the price of the far superior Land Rover Defender 110 cars. Around the £70k mark with no tax concessions for business users even on what are falsely described as ‘certified commercial vehicles’ [according to the Inios Grenadier web site]. This is very misleading of Ineos and there will already be some angry commercial customers because of this. They might as well have bought the top Trial and Fieldmaster versions or a fully glazed high spec Defender110 for very similar money.
Yup, huge issue and massive oversight. Maybe they’ll make an LWB 4.6t version. Can’t see how on Earth they could shave 500kg off it. I can’t help but think it could have had a 2.0 4 pot diesel and a manual box with ~200bhp. Save weight, more space for the exhaust manifold and much lower cost.
Christ, I think you’re right on labelling as a commercial, no doubt there will be some angry customers. And as you say, what a pointless version, all the drawbacks with none of the tax benefits .
The 2 seater van doesn't need the higher weight capacity to qualify as commercial. % of cargo area vs seating area means it qualifies, same as the current Defender & Disco 2 seater vans do, which I 'think' both carry less weight than the Grenadier.
@@baronvonteuchter1412 That sounds like a Ford Ranger or Amarok pickup. In their high spec four cylinder twin turbo 210hp Wildtrak versions, there is a saving of some £23,000 compared to Grenadier. £20k if choosing the top Platinum spec with V6 diesel, full time 4wd and full leather, ventilated and heated power seats, the 12.3” dash plus the superb infotainment system with portrait screen, B&O sound system etc etc. Over £10k of that saving is due to the VAT being reclaimed on the pickup but not allowed on any Grenadier model. The pickups are silly expensive in their own right but at a £20k saving for a better drive, come on! I’ve got tractors and quad bikes for the really technically challenging ground that can’t be driven around by the very capable pickups. Given a choice at the same £70k approximate purchase price, I would buy a Defender 110 rather than the Grenadier. It is only because the Grenadier was claimed to be a “certified commercial vehicle”, which is what I want, a work truck, that I risked ordering a Grenadier. Luckily they will return my £2500 deposit.
Towed a NATO Sankey ex-army trailer (around 1 tonne) with my Discovery 3 from Swindon to Bangor (Wales) and got 27mpg. Without towing, I got 32mpg. This seems way to expensive for what it is imo. We've had our D3 for 13 years now (well maintained). It's often off road on the farm and just works. One thing we like is when the rear seats fold, the load space is completely flat. Useful when transporting water troughs (and fridges) etc.
I'm at 16 years with my Disco 3. Can't bare to get rid of it . Many other vehicles in the stable come and go , but this is my love . Yes , parts wear out , but it's concept was near perfect and style unique . Don't like the spare wheel carrier design whatsoever though . Replacement for this will be LandCruiser 300 ....... yes I'm in Oz ;-)
@@idanceforpennies281 Every couple of years I clean the sensors like MAP etc. Keeps the economy good. Oil changes are a must. I do mine annually with an Ester based synthetic.
They’ll still sell like hotcakes to rich but undiscerning Salcombe types who want something ‘British’ to tow their boats down the slipway so the G55 AMG’s wheels don’t get muddy
It's a shame it has to come down to the inevitable mud slinging (pun intended). Harry has unwittingly fanned the flames between the various camps by doing a direct 'buy this not that' comparison rather than a straight up pro's / con's review on the Grenadier. It may have been a bit clumsy but the criticism he's then had in the comments has understandably made him take an even more entrenched position, no one winning so far.... If we step back - A huge well done is due to the Ineos team (and their families) who have no doubt been giving blood sweat and tears in recent months to get it over the line, how any new entrant can bring a new car to market today is unbelievable. Well done to Land Rover for successfully pulling off mass market appeal, refinement and capability in the new Defender. The Grenadier was never going to come close on refinement, if it had then Land Rover would have somewhat squandered their 75 year head start... Unfortunately LR had to leave some old Defender lovers behind, but Ineos have been able to bring this group some alternative which should hopefully become even more accessible over time as the Grenadiers trickle into the second hand market. If Ineos succeed, we all win - more choice, more competition, more variety on the roads, maybe other aspiring manufacturers are given the confidence to start new firms and bring us yet more options. I hope the new Grenadier owners are enjoying their cars and credit to them for taking the early adopter risks which bring us something new. I can't wait to see the builds they come up with as the Grenadier starts to get modified for camping, overlanding, rock crawling etc... If Ineos can get a few thousand of these out on the roads in the next year, it will be a lot more interesting for us all than another few thousand Toyotas, Land Rovers or whatever... I hope we don't have to endure too many "Old Defender vs New Defender Vs Grenadier vs G Wagon vs Jimny vs Unimog vs Iveco vs Troopy" tug of war in a muddy field comparison videos and the influencers in the industry can use their imagination to help build the marques and their enthusiasts up for the benefit of us all. edit - on reflection that tug of war video does sound quite good...
its either in competion with these other marks in this niche and a direct compariosn is valid or it has to be at a tottaly different price point, i.e sub 50k
Interesting review, always comparing it to the new defender is ok for the UK however in Oz there are very few defenders/discovery/range rovers used in the true outback. Having mechanical diff locks etc is a plus out here. Less electrical problems. But thanks for pointing out the issues I would have being 6 ft 4” tall. The annoying B pillar and that hump for the left foot. I had that in my Pajero Sport and on long trips my left leg would cramp up really badly.
Agreed. I think the biggest thing missed in the review is that hardly anyone who's buying this is going to run it as a standard vehicle - it's going to get converted into a proper 4WD or overlander by most owners. It's built to be customised, and the small number of compromises present are almost certainly worth it for most. I know I certainly don't want smart electronics to "just let me drive" over everything - I want to choose what the car is doing. It's using Harrop-Eaton eLockers for the diff locks, which is exactly what I would put on it if it only had soft-roader "smart" electronics.
Be interesting to see how the new Toyota Land Cruiser (think you call them a Troopies) stacks up v the Grenadier under Oz conditions as you chaps have some v harsh conditions to deal with.
@@BlesamaSoul In Australia the 70 Series is the bulletproof, manual only V8 4wd commonly bought by mining and outback pastoral activities. Although a lot of people buy the 4 door version for touring and towing duties. I would think if you wanted to compete with the Landcruiser , the 300 series would be the better vehicle to compare with. Both are way too expensive in Australia at about $100k for a reasonable version. Way out of my league unless I win Lotto.
So, an interesting and honest review. We'll stick to our wonderful Isuzu D'max up here in the Northern Highlands. Sadly the Grenadier is far too expensive and for a working commercial vehicle they've made it far to "Posh". Inside! I can almost buy two D'maxs for the same money and it's also far more economical to run. Shame but let's see if they bring out a more basic version out that we can throw muddy dogs and a few sheep in without it destroying all the delicate electronics and plush upholstery 🤔😁
Exactly, my own isuzu d max is a decent enough spec and is good enough towing and off road for what I need. My d max is used like a van and always full of tools, drums of fuel etc. For non work use I have a volvo xc60 and this is superbly comfortable on all types of roads and excellent in the winter on snow. I'll stick with a two vehicle combination rather than putting my money into this compromise of a truck.
Our D'max is a Double Cab. Often have more then Two people in it. We also have a Jeep. Both vehicles have been fantastic in the snow and floods up here in the Highlands. Both Vehicles together cost less than one of these Grenaderrs
I think Jim has completely missed his own brief. It was supposed to be a cheaper alternative to the Defender without all the luxury and car like features which moved that car up the price band. It looks like a Chinese knock off and it's way too expensive
Sir Jim should stick to business he knows, this obviously is a loss making venture. But he's rich enough to waste money and effort pursuing meaningless ventures.
I agree, I was excited to see what the Grenadier would become as it was supposed to be the next gen Defender, and appeal to the off road / farming / country sports communities, however the final cost is way beyond the initial projections and even the utility model it’s far too expensive to be used commercially compared to the likes of the Hilux etc. It was supposed to be low tech I.e mechanical as opposed to electrical, but failed in that regard as well. All in all it’s more like a Discovery than a Defender, and is just another Chelsea tractor with a Defender-ish look. I bet the depreciation will be horrendous on the first batch of cars and can only hope that they manage to get the price down sort the niggles and find their niche, otherwise this has Delorean written all over it (without the flux capacitor) 😀
Watching the steering portions of the video reminded me of my Series 3, which I am very much used to, but it's 50 years old! And doesn't cost nearly as much!
EXACTLY - it doesn't do anything a slightly modfied 110 couldn't do but it wouldn't stack up just on price. If I wound the asking price of one of these ugly boxes into a classic rangey/ 110 or 'Cruiser - they'd be FAR superior.
Wouldn't touch one to replace a D4. I would get bored of that engine, 22mpg, woolly steering, only 5 seats, live axles/springs, no footwell space VERY quickly. The car it's trying to emulate was obsolete 40yrs ago. I know what I would prefer drive to Scotland or France in!
The project is admirable but the startup costs are eye watering. I was expecting a better first attempt. I hope they survive long enough to become a success.
Well said Paul M. An intelligent non destructive comment. The rest of you should be ashamed of yourselves…attempting to bring down an honest attempt to create something great before it’s had a chance. Dangle your sorry heads in shame!
I went back and watched the Defender video to see how it handled it. The first thing i noticed is that @Harry'sfarmvideo stopped and picked a terrain response option and then set up the hill. He chose mud and ruts that lock the center and rear diffs. Most people would have chosen grass, gravel and snow because you are on grass. I found that interesting because to me he knew that you need the diffs to be locked right away to make the hill. Then he proceeded to go up the hill. The Grenadier locking front and rear diffs require to he low range. He has indicated the diff did not work which means he was in the high range attempting the hill with open diff. How is that a fair comparison. Also it shows the Grenadier was able to climb the hill in high range. Full discloure, I own the new defender and have a deposit to purchase the Grenadier.
You don't need to be in low range to select terrain response modes in the new defender. The only one that needs low range is rock crawl, all the others work in high and low range. Nor will it lock the diffs permanently in mud and ruts. It will optimise the traction control and diff locking strategy for the terrain though, so will be constantly adjusting the amount of locking torque across the diffs.
Suggest you get to a Land Rover Experience centre who will tell you all about your Defender, as the other poster has said you dont need to be in low range for Mud n Ruts. Mud and Ruts allows for more wheel slip than grass gravel snow, because it has a catherine wheel effect of flinging mud off the tyre tread. GGS has relatively strong traction control effect once the initial dampened throttle in that mode is overcome
@jamesmeadows you are correct, my bad. I tend use mud and ruts and rock crawl in low range. Even the LR manual says use mud in low range. I made assumption that you needed to be in low. You know what they say about assuming.
@seany8787 you are correct, I don't need to be in low range. I just use low range for mud and ruts. I assumed and was proven wrong. You do have a great point that you need a class to best understand the terrain systems. You just can't lock and unlock the diffs when needed. They are always on. Makes you think about Rohny Dahl defender review where he couldn't figure it out.
I am somewhat disappointed by Harry’s lack of understanding of the sales target group. This is meant to be sold to and driven by people without any mechanical sympathy. It is meant to be repaired in the bush and by low-skilled mechanics. It’s not an equivalent of the new Defender, as the new Defender is actually a Discovery with a different outfit. The Deffy is not going to last long enough in the wild and good luck finding a computer diagnostics if it breaks a few thousand kms from civilization. That’s why this car was built. It’s an alternative of the Toyota LC 70-series. And this is pretty obvious, which makes me wonder if Harry wrote his homework upfront?
That being the case, the Grenadier fails on all counts. Electronic digital dash. BMW engine. ZF autobox. It should have a brutally simple 4-cylinder diesel and a manual gearbox, plus an analogue gauge cluster, if it is meant to thrive in that market. But it isn't. It's an expensive toy for rich posers.
All of those gammon Brexiteers thought they were going to get a replacement for an old-style Defender. I recall a number of them claiming it would 'start' from £30K and be built in the UK. It ended up costing twice as much, was built by foreigners in the EU by a non-domiciled Brexiteer who doesn't want the jobs to go to Brits, and gets poor reviews. It is a billionaire's vanity project that deserves a decent burial.
Now I wish Land Rover made a Defender Classic, with the old school modernized design. And the New Defender keeping being the New Defender. If they changed only the body design between models maybe it would be doable and would appeal to a broader audience like G-Wagon and Old Defender fans.
It isn’t an issue of the steering box vs rack and pinion, it’s an issue of a poorly designed system. The box can be geared to do 3 turns lock to lock or 4.5 turns lock to lock. The lack of return to center is about castor angle not the box. Sounds like it needs an alignment or they screwed up the geometry. Those back doors are ridiculous. Why they didn’t galvanize the entire frame and body is a head scratcher. To me, it appears as though committees and managers reared their ugly heads in a lot of engineering meetings. 1.25 billion seems like a tax number for the start up costs. Best way to launder money these days is through a business loss.
Yeah I’m curious to know what the caster angle is on Harry’s vehicle. If this in an inherent problem then failure to return to center is failure to engineer. Its hard to believe a modern vehicle could leave the factory with this flaw as its a safety issue.
@@SingaporeSling1 Lots of people seem to keep calling this a safety issue- but I remember my driving instructor regularly berated me for letting the wheel slip through my fingers to straighten up. Maybe there are just too many 'bad' habits around? my w124 Mercedes is reluctant to self centre the last 1/3rd of a turn, but you get used to it in about 0.5seconds and its never put me out of position in the 6yrs I've been driving it. Like you said though, its just as possible that the steering took a whack in the time it spent as a press car before Harry got it. With a brand new company like Ineos they might not have the experience to expect bizarre kinds of damage from overenthusiastic journalists.
@@mattteee2973 allowing the wheel to recenter while turning out of a corner at low speed is not the main problem. A vehicle with an inherent steering geometery fault, in this case insuffient caster angle is unstable in a straight line and prone to over correction. I believe this problem is unique to Harry's Grenadier and a wheel alignment should solve it.
The issue with the left foot in RHD version seems to be a classic error after designing a LHD 10:43 vehicle and then converting it over. Not surprising as it was deaigned and built in Europe.
What I don't get is why everyone is saying that it's so amazing for it to exist? I mean, they copied an original design in terms of the styling, have old tech (steering, for instance), and have bought in BMW powertrains. So you're just left with an immensely rich man making a mediocre vehicle to make some sort of point. But then you're left with a vehicle that just seems to miss the mark - it may be utilitarian, but then wouldn't a farmer be more likely to save 30k and get a Hilux or similar that would be properly useful. So the price puts it above the equivalent Defender, possibly with off-road abilities that are as good, but for £70k plus surely you want a vehicle that will be at least adequate enough to drive on road comfortably. I've seen a couple of positive reviews (such as Jonny Smith on the Late Break Show) and their positivity towards it seems to stem larrgely from the fact that they think that it's funny that a rich man has created the car because of a grudge, not because its a very good car!
V interesting (and not very appealing!). Have to say, I've driven quite a few cars with recirculating-ball steering and don't remember any of them lacking self-centering.
