I’m glad you differentiated between the Pig and the Zone. So often people say that the Pig is Innova’s Zone, but it’s not. They are different discs that can compliment one another very well. I bag both and they’re great!
Don't have anything to add about the disc, mostly just appreciate your style of videos. Quick and to the point but also just well-paced, thanks for a good video
My zone is a cryztal flx and has been in the bag for 2 years as the most thrown disc I own, there’s not even a close second, so when I got the toro it filled a great spot for more stable finishes. I am still feeling this out, but hoping the toro stays like a fresh zone for a while. I actually found I could throw the toro farther on flat to hyzer shots, but probably because it takes the torque so well that I can throw it harder than my really beat zone and trust it not to turn over. I think the top on mine is flatter, I wasn’t bothered by the plus rim, and I LOVED the gummy feel of the star run, obviously as it’s similar to the flx zone. It actually kicked my 400 A2 out of the bag for now more than competing with my zone. (Love your videos, just offering a little perspective from another view!) ❤️👍🏼(worth noting, I only throw these forehand)
Yeah the Cryztal Zones are solid! I have a Cryztal Zone as my main in my bag! I just love the feel of it! And the toro is a great option for a more fresh like Zone! I can totally see what you mean about handling the torque better on a forehand!
I currently own a crzstal flx, and want to bag a champion toro. Do you think that the toro will be more stable and trustworthy worth on farther shots than my zone? I feel like that plastic should fly a little faster. Just curious.
Yeah, that's how it usually is for me! A disc just isn't jiving for me for some reason... Then when take a closer look it's usually because of a plus rim!
Yeah, it's one of those where if the Zone isn't quite as overstable enough for your liking... than the Toro is it! but if you like your Zone... There is still nothing quite like it! lol
I feel like the plus rim has a decent place, I'm not sure that I like them as much either, that was what we found may have been hurting my release angle. Great review, love the honesty!
I actually just recently took my Z Zone out of my bag in favor of a Glow Champ Gator I bought used. What I like about the Gator versus the Zone, for me anyways, is that the Gator always comes up short of where I think it's going. I'm never overthrowing the target with the Gator. I don't think the 4 vs 5 speed makes that big of a difference considering that most people think the Zone is a midrange.
There is a big difference between a 4 speed approach versus 5-6 speed OS mid. I bag a zone or toro and also a deflector. Deflector is way more beef than any 4 speed approach disc and goes way further. The deflector also skips way more than a 4 speed. I prefer a beadless mid like Deflector over a beaded mid like gator.
@@brian6speed I agree with you there can be a difference but not necessarily when the OS mid has a low glide rating. A Gator is a 2 glide as where the Deflector is a 4 glide. I've not tried a Deflector yet. I have a Pyro which should be similar but it didn't really have a place in my bag at the moment. After trying lots of different mids I ended up coming back to the Roc3. I like the Gator because it feels and flies like a beefier Roc3. The beaded/beadless thing doesn't bother me much. I'm more interested in the flight. I just felt the Gator(the one I own) and the Zone were very similar and didn't need to bag both of them.
Yeah I can totally see that about the Gator! the bead made it hard for me to forehand as well as the Zone! But I did bag the Gator for a while there. it's a solid disc!
@@donkarnage6032 the pyro is not very similar to a deflector. The deflector is borderline silly beef. I have both and like both for different reasons. But the deflector feels like it is approaching tilt levels of overstable.
Ive bagged an aviar x3 for ages which was maybe one of the closest discs in innovas lineup to that zone, its one of my favorite discs but I still bag a harp because the aviar has that putter tendancy of liking to glide a little in wind, the toro looks like it has an interesting spot for that innova approach disc!
Yeah the Toro would definitely pair well with the AviarX3. I think it would be even better in the wind than your Harp. I have always thought the Harp wouldn't hook up as much and glide more in the wind than my Zone. and this is a touch more overstable and less glidey than my Zone!
totally agree! I think everyone can use an overstable approach disc in the bag! And there are so many good options, you for sure can find one you really click with!
It does for the feel of the hand. Entropy and Harp are a lot deeper of a disc than a Zone, Tactic or Toro. I can’t get the same flight out of them with the same effort. People should have one of the approach discs but it does matter which one works best for their hand.
glad you're talking about this. one of those things very few people ever talk about or even notice, but has bothered me forever with certain molds. the very first PD I ever threw, I noticed the plus rim IMMEDIATELY. It has never bothered me backhand, but as a player who throws an equal amount of forehands, that type of rim completely throws off my release. first disc I ever noticed it with was the L64 Flow back in the day. amazing for backhands, but couldn't forehand it to save my life thanks to the slanted rim.
Yeah, that's why a lot of the pros preferred the early runs of the PD because I think it had a normal rim! I think the first runs were the ones with the normal rims
Have you tried the Rat? I haven't thrown it myself, but I was under the impression that it was the closes thing to a Zone that innova had before the Toro.
I have a Zone, Rat, and Toro and in my experience the Rat is less stable than the Zone or Toro, and the Toro is the closest disc Innova has to the Zone now. I use the Aviar, Aviar3, AviarX3, Rat, and then Toro as my 5 approach discs. I also use the Pig but I classify it as a small-diameter midrange. 🙂
@@NickCarroll oh good to know! Although that could be because the rat only comes in star. I bet if they made champ ones they would be pretty overstable.
@@neilhaggerty1878 Yeah the Rat is definitely a lower profile disc, and at least the one I have is board flat. It's just a tick more stable than my AviarX3 and while I mostly rely on my Aviar3 and X3, it's nice to know I have the Rat and Toro there just in case. They're 2 levels of high stability I can rely on for certain shots.
Eh, the envy is canted out a a few degrees and that's one of the hottest and most popular throwers out there right now(and a personal favorite). I can understand not liking the rim it if it doesn't work for the disc, but automatically not liking discs because of it seems odd to me. I look at people who hate/love beads the same way, for me it depends on the disc itself and I think judging a disc on one tiny characteristic only costs yourself potentially finding discs that would be great if only you could get past your naïve personal preferences to try something new. Then again, I've spent weeks and months bagging bad discs trying to learn to love them too so maybe I am too forgiving, I suppose we all get to build our bag in our own way.
It's not that I won't try a disc that has a plus rim! But it a disc is feeling weird when throwing and such... I would personally rather just find something that does feel good and gives me confidence rather than trying to make something work... especially since there are so many great options out there for every slot in the bag. why settle for something that doesn't quite fit your preferences, you know?
Yeah, they don't call them that anymore, and they just put them on various mold. and every company has them! I just don't know what else to call it... You are either indifferent about them or really don't like them... I have never met someone who prefers them... lol
If I had to I would probably bag the Toro and the AviarX3. Those two are different enough to bag both and the Toro is much more versatile for my game than the Gator is. I could never comfortably forehand the Gator on a forehand.
I have an Archon that has a bit of a groove in the inside rim that makes it slightly concave. I love this more than any other version, but it is the only disc I have like it, even among other Archons.
@apollodiscgolf - I noticed you said you throw roc3s... I bag a champ one in Max weightfor my over stable mid slot and have been bagging both star aviar3 and aviarx3 for my stable/overstablea pproach / upshot slot. I'm curious why you felt the need for this zone type spot having a roc3 and I'm sure an overstable throwing putter in your bag? Did you find it necessary? Love your videos!
Yeah, I always felt the need for the Zone in my bag... Granted the AviarX3 wasn't out back then... but I just liked the Zone because it was more overstable and slower than the Roc3, and it was just better for forehands since it was shallower without a bead! Like a shorter gator with a touch less overstability.
I would have to completely disagree about the +rim. I absolutely love it. It feels better and releases better. I wish they would put the + on more discs.
Very well explained. Thank you. I agree with your thoughts on the Toro. I don't think its that good and I'm probably going to switch to the Zone. Late the game 😂.
Yeah, but that’s because the Toro technically hasn’t come out yet. They have just released the limited runs and such… I’m sure these will eventually get their stock release and be just as available as the Zone! I’m not too worried about that. What will be interesting to see is the difference between the limited runs and the stock runs
From my perspective the first Zone-like disc was the Gator. I was so pumped when it came out because I was literally looking for an overstable mid that fit between Firebird (or something like that) and a Rhyno (which was really the only thing like that on the market). People on internet forums argued if you couldn't manipulate a Firebird or a Roc to do that short range hyzer line, it was you problem. Gator changed the game for me, tho, easy to throw, dumps out and sits. Coming back to DG after a pretty long hiatus I thought the Zone just totally nailed it; like a gator but a touch more glide but I still totally understand if people prefer the Gator for its lack of glide. I now throw the Entropy because I'm a big fan of the more putter like deeper rim. If I was more sidearm dominant tho, I'd pick a Zone. Anyways, it's a really fun spot in the bag to fill and I love the options out there!
Lol. I love that logic of the roc and Firebird 😂 People just don’t like change… and I agree, there is definitely a place for the Gator that the Roc and Firebird can’t do! And the options really are getting so good!
Yeah the Toro would be a slightly different beast than the Justice... I think they both have a place in the bag! if you are looking for something like a Justice from Innova's camp I would try out the MOAB from Hyzerbomb... the rim is pretty deep, but its a beefcake like the Justice! maybe even more overstable than the Justice
When the plus rims first came out I couldn't stand them and still can't. But, if you remember, when all the 3 versions came out (Roc3, Mako3, Leopard3, etc) those all had a toned down plus rim (in addition to other features). The rims weren't quite straight but they weren't splayed out nearly as much as the + versions. They were somewhere in the middle. IMHO, the 3s nailed it. The Roc3 and Mako3 in particular are noticeably easier to get a clean release out of, especially forehand, than the originals, which are much more likely to feel as if they're catching on your fingers and joints.
I used to throw zones but no matter what plastic after a few weeks or months for higher grade they would start beat in and flip in a way that was ok bh, but made the FH feel less predictable. Don't get me wrong, i still bag a beat in zone for straight FH approach shots, but for me the A2 by prodigy is just a solid disk especially once you beat it in a bit. Only trouble i get with it is it can go a little to far sometimes when i am not expecting it.
Yeah the A2 is BEEFY!!! I personally haven't had a problem with my zones beating in too fast. My current cryztal zone I have had in the bag since 2012 and still great in a wind!
The Plus mold is a licensed term by Innova, so others might do it, but they don't use that term. I find that you pretty much have to look at each disc to see if they've used it or not. All my 3-series discs that are mids or fairway drivers have a bit of the Plus mold built into it, or it's just a side-effect of these discs being the flatter versions of the non-3-series models. Maybe flattening the flight plate makes the inner rim more diagonal. I can't tell. Innova has different "technologies." VTech is their first (starting with the Shark in 1987), Plus is their second (XD+, Roc+, and TeeBird+ as callouts, but they've used it elsewhere), 3-series is their third (Aviar3, Roc3, Leopard3). They also X-series and L-series discs, where X-series are typically the original (more stable) molds (Eagle, TeeBird, Beast) but in some cases are new (RhynoX) molds, and the L-series which are generally less stable versions of the same discs (Eagle-L, Teebird-L, FL, SL). Lastly, they have some discs where they combine technologies, like the VTech and 3-Series discs (Wombat3, Shark3, Leopard3) or X and 3-Series (AviarX3, RocX3).
Yeah, they stopped branding the discs as plus discs. they just started putting the plus rim on different molds. and nobody else has ever branded it (maybe because the branding didn't work with Innova..) so I just call it a plus rim because I don't really know what else to call it!
@@ApolloDiscGolf Yeah from the research I've done the Plus mold wasn't received well, and was very hit or miss. On the aside it doesn't bother me at all. The 3-series name was really used in only their 2017-2018 time frame, and I think they might still use that "flattening" technology on newer discs but without the callouts, as they did with other tricks they used over the decades. And VTech they've used in a lot of discs without specifying. So it's been hard to really nail down specifics across all their molds. Lastly, Thumbtrac is another "technology" they use - not limited to them, but it's found popularity the way they use it, on a number of their discs.
When the "+ rim" discs were originally released it was pretty extreme. The "3 series" that immediately followed was a compromise: +-ish but not slanted nearly so much as the actual +-molds. I don't think making the 3-molds lower profile has much to do with the inside rim. They just made both changes at the same time.
Yeah, it’s interesting because you can find Gummy Esp Buzzzes and such. But yeah, most of the ESP Zones I have seen are pretty stiff! But I like the stiffer plastic so I’m fine with it 😂
To be honest... I have no idea how it affects the flight... It could cause it to have less glide since the air can escape easier? But that is literally a shot in the dark...
@@ApolloDiscGolf me neither, I've thrown many of those molds and none made my bag so I'm wondering if it's a flight thing, grip thing, snap thing? Anyways, thanks for confirming it's real!!
Just got an aviarx3 and now I might be getting a Toro because the x3 is nice for inside 250' but I really want to try that plus rim for my flex forehand approach shots for that 250'-350' range it looks like it flies true to its numbers
@@ApolloDiscGolf not a cannon just been trying to increase my average max distance for each style of disc I have for forehand and backhand, my forehand driver shots are able to land bullseye on a few 450' shots but more consistent at 400' sadly my backhand shots are just starting to catch up to that
Thanks for this, This has same flight numbers as the discmania tactic and I was looking for a new one as mine is a bit too beat-in already, plus-rim is a huge turn-off for me, so this disc is a no-go
Yeah, I need to make a video on that Tactic compared to these! I would say the Tactic is a touch less overstable than all of these though. But it's been a while since I have thrown one and compared them!
I suspect Innova doesn't have the quality control to put a consistently flat top on the Toro. That's what I love about Zones, I can buy them online and know they'll all throw the same. Innova...🤣🤣🤣
Or, and hear me out, Big Jerm screwed up Hyzerbomb Mortars when they made them way less stable. Those always flew better than Zones to me, but they changed the stability years back and they aren't the same...
I remember watching Jerm's first in the bag for Innova and he pointed out how much he liked the Mortar, so maybe he didn't request any change in the mold, but perhaps it still got changed (inadvertently or purposefully) by Innova afterwards, but not through any input from Jerm. Just my two cents. 🙂
@@NickCarroll from what I heard he wanted it more stable and less of a meat hook, he even said so in an In The Bag when he bragged of the his new tour series Mortars a few years back. It was unique from Innova, now its just another meh midrange.
That's weird, the Mortar I tried was from before Big Jerm went to Innova... Like I threw a Jared Roan Mortar, and it just wasn't as stable for me as the Zone, and glided a lot more... maybe I got a weird one!
@@ApolloDiscGolf I have no doubt yours was a different stability than the one Jerm had - I know Innova has a reputation with their molds. I've had good luck with them, but I seem to be an outlier. 😂
I'm an innova guy but have also been bagging the westside anvil as that midrange approach disc in my bag. Never thrown a zone before but still wanna try the toro. I'd say the Anvil another good choice for people that want a disc that fills the same slot
Yeah the Anvil is super beefy! like even more so than the Toro! I think the Anvil is a completely different beast! kind of like the A2 from Prodigy. I can see someone bagging a Zone type disc along with an Anvil/A2 type disc
@@ApolloDiscGolf I bag a Harp and an Anvil both in premium plastic and they compensate eachother so well. I'd definitely recommend bagging both types of discs
@@EbinTomatoh Yeah, they can definitely cover 2 different types of shots. The Harp/Zone being a little more controllable and the A2 just being a meathook that you can lean on a little more for it's stability
Yeah, the Zone I was comparing it to was a Big Z Zone, it is the most overstable out of the Zones that I have. But I also don't have a recent Z Zone, this was the newest one that I owned... I haven't purchased a new Zone in a long time... lol
Ok so as a fellow plus rim hater...do you notice when some of the Halo Wraiths and Destroyers come out with non vertical rims? I swear I've noticed that with multiple runs, including Jonesboro Heimburg and the og Halo Wraiths. Nobody believes me when I talk about this haha
I have noticed that on the Halo Wraith! Which I notice a little bit… but I just cope with it on those because it’s just the Halo one and I don’t use it all that much! But yeah… it’s weird they put it on the halo ones when their stock ones are still normal!
AviarX3 was probably the closest disc to a Zone before the Toro. I'm not really a huge fan of companies copying other peoples disc designs, but I do understand the need for the Toro for Innova players.
Yeah I have always wanted to try an Aviarx3! I haven't gotten around to trying one yet... But I thought those were closer to a Harp like disc, maybe a touch less overstable and more glide? All I know is that Big Jerm can shred with those!
Claiming Zones are puddle top is just false. I have flat and domey zones as well. I also have over 10 Toros and some are puddle top, some are flat, and some have dome. Then claiming the Toro is more stable than a Zone really depends on what Zone you have. They vary in stability quite a bit. My puddle top cryztal zones are more stable than Toro. I also found my color glow Toro to be more stable than my star toro.
Yeah that doesn't surprise me about the Color Glow ones being more overstable. But this Zone I compared was a pretty overstable one, it's more overstable than my Cryztals, because that's what I usually bag. And most Zone, at least the ones that people look for the most are the puddle top ones. And they have puddle tops more often than most discs!
I have personally not found the Harp to be quite as overstable or glide-less as the Zone! but I also haven't thrown the Harp in a while... But I just found the Zone is a bit more reliable in the wind, and since its shallower, it works better for my forehand approaches!
@@ApolloDiscGolf I hear you on all those points. I think for my old-man, newbie arm speed the Harp is plenty over stable and doesn't really glide. I agree on the depth too. I've been putting with Gateway Chiefs, and have a couple Chief OS's that are quite shallow. I haven't had a chance to try them out in a stiff wind yet. They look like a squished down Harp so I'm hopeful.
This Zone was pretty new, and it's a more overstable one from my stash, and it's been thrown a bit, but not that much. It usually sits in my backups and I pull it out if I know the round it going to be really windy and I don't think I would trust my 10 year old Cryztal Zone!
Not every zone has a puddle top and different runs/plastics are going to compare differently to the toro because the toro has not had that type of run/plastic variation yet. It's going to be hard for any company's zone clone to beat the original because they aren't exact copies. Good that innova has finally gotten a mold that can fill that spot for their pros, but for the average mixed bag disc golfer the zone is the way to go because it has so many different plastics to choose from you can pick the one you like and you know it is going to act like a zone instead of getting a zone clone that is more/less overstable, has more/less glide, is flatter/domier, is plus mold/not.
Yeah, this is one of my more overstable Zone's and it's pretty new! So the Toro being more overstable is pretty good! I would assumed in general they will be more overstable. And I definitely think mixed bag people if they want a zone, then they just need to get a zone... But if they are wishing the Zone is a little more overstable for them... then the Toro is great... if they think the Zone is a touch too overstable... Than the Distortion is going to be solid!
I don't know... Discraft's plastic has gotten a ton better since around 2017-2018... right before Paul came, their plastic was getting really good! Then once Paul came people saw how much better their plastic had gotten!
Yeah there are a lot of people in that camp! Some disc just feel a little bit off for me.. then when I look closer its always because of a plus rim! But some discs it doesn't bother me... like I think the Roc3 has a plus rim? and I LOVE my pro Roc3's!
Yeah, it's really an Innova term, they started it with giving molds a "plus" version of them (ie. Teebird+, Eagle+, Leopard+) which were just those discs with the slanted out rim, but they stopped it. I'm assuming because it didn't sell well. Now they just make molds with it. Like every Leopard now has a plus rim, and this... Other companies have it, but nobody really names it... So I just call it a plus rim
Plus rim is genius for sidearm! I hate the feel of zones, they feel like they slant inward to me, so I’ve always thrown a Buzzz OS and Ringer GT instead. I may have to try this disc now, I think every putter and mid should have plus rims.
Dang, you might be the first person I have heard of that actually prefers plus rims! lol. I have always just met people that are indifferent and don't care either way or they hate them... I haven't heard of someone who prefers them! lol
@@ApolloDiscGolf . Hopefully I’m understanding it correctly. The Ringer GT and Buss OS have very vertical walls (not slanted inward). I always thought the plus rims were just deeper, like a Roc +🤷♂️
@@badgerspvcoachellis2436 The plus discs have usually referred to the rims being slightly slanted outwards. The Roc+ very well could have been deeper, I don't know, but the + at the end should have referred to the slanted out rim!
@@iAmAzwell , the toro is very similar to the zone for me, but it feels better in the hand. More neutral rim. The difference is the toro doesn’t fade as hard at low speeds, and is a touch slower.
Yeah! The Undertaker is an amazing mold! But yeah, I feel the same way about it... I just can never get myself to bag them, the confidence just isn't there... but they are still pretty fun to throw!
Wow, that's really interesting! Because holding it up next to my Zone it is definitely a bit smaller in diameter... I forgot to get a shot of it for this video though..
I personally found the Harp to be a touch less overstable and it has more glide than the Zone... But I also haven't thrown a Harp in a good long while! like talking 7ish years... lol
Lol, I wouldn't find very much use out of a disc that overstable! The Zone is just enough beef for me! Overstable enough for winds, but workable enough for my touchy shots!
Yeah, I think the Caiman is also a beadless Gator isn't it? If that's the case then yeah it doesn't surprise me... the Mortar (beadless Gator) wasn't too overstable, it was pretty straight for most of it's flight!
@@ApolloDiscGolf I believe it was supposed to be the beadless gator but I feel like the gators somehow had more stability. I would say the bead but that's more or less been debunked on its effect of stability.
@@x2XStrikerX0x Why do you say the beaded vs beadless thing has been debunked? I am pretty sure the bead is for sure what makes the Gator more overstable. It makes the disc less aerodynamic and as a result resists the wind more and fades faster, earlier. There are definitely beaded discs that aren't overstable. But the bead makes it more overstable than it would have been without the bead.
I never found the Harp to be quite as overstable or glide-less as the Zone for me! and that's what I love the Zone for, the dependable touch shots in the heavy winds with it's lack of glide!
idk, they are pretty different in the hand. And I have been throwing Zones since 2012 and I haven't had a Zone as beefy as this... but then again I haven't purchased a ton of zones... I have owned maybe 8-9 in that 10 year span
I'm kinda upset now. Just bought one of these online because I wanted to see what Calvin did with his Toro. Now I see it isn't a unique disc but a zone rip off... It was a bad last minute call. I have a couple zones already... uhg
It's not exactly like a Zone... it's definitely beefier than the zone! it won't go as far... and has a different feel! But yeah. I think it would replace a zone in someones bag. I don't know if anyone would have both in the bag...
You should be using a fan grip on this disc. If you use more than a back loaded grip on an approach disc you are going to grip lock it or lose consistency trying to time your release.
Yeah, I was about to say that about Paul. I power grip everything, even on touchy approaches and it works pretty well for me! If I grip lock it, then that's just a bad throw by me... and with a power grip you can still front load or back load it!
I grew up on innova, but i will never be a fan due to the "destroyer" paradox. in 5 years everyone is going to be looking for one specific run of toro and it will be overpriced because its the only run that flys a certain way.. They ripped off MVP overmold with the Atlas, a lot of their former team pros generally dont have a lot of "positive" and more just avoid talking about their experience with Innova, I say that speaks volumes of how they run their company now
