Let's take a look inside the often embellished KYB SSS suspension and what makes it tick Check out our other videos on showa, TM racing, and WP suspension to compare them!
You gave a great explanation on the KYB SSS Fork, and Rear Shock.i had one of the well know suspension companies Give one of my son's 250f Yammie a revalve,respring and different link and I noticed that they changed a few parts in the HS Comp adj assy and it seems to work a lot better and actually makes a difference when you do a small adjustment,now I know why.Thanks for the awesome video and keep up the good work.
Great works as usual, you got my lazy brain thinking. I once pulled down a set SHOWA mid 90s CR 250 forks, to change the fork leak. Not knowing anything. This info helps the average person like myself . Thanks
I think you better pull a few shock low speed clickers fully apart! I mean unscrew the blue anodised section of the high speed adjuster out of the compression adjuster ring nut assembly. You’ll find that the slow speed clicker needle bottoms in the blue section and not the port on the high speed clamp post. The clamp post has an oring on it…so where is the oil going to flow?? There is a small hole from inside to the outside of the blue section of the low speed clicker that allows the fluid to flow through. The high speed adjuster does not change the slow speed needle position! The high speed collar works as others have stated below.
How in the world did you learn all of this stuff? I would genuinely love to learn more about this stuff. I've done race tech before and I thought that because the pistons were so open and non restricted that put more effect on the shim stack which created a wider range of valving options but I suppose if the velocity was never high enough for the stock piston to actually restrict the flow then it would be total bs. These vids are amazing. Glad i found your channel.
Thanks for watching! Its like anything else you have to dive in - question the why and how all the time - and just work hard at learning new things. I have an engineering background so I think my understanding of physics and math help me to apply those concepts to the actual parts that are trying to accomplish the physics
Derick, the intent of using this type of high speed loader is to mimic changing the diameter of the clamp shim, this adjuster will create a change in hsc slope as the added stiffness will be biased towards high shaft speeds, where as using a high speed loader that contacts the OD of the face shim offsets the curve rather than changing its slope as preloading the face shims creates a change to damping from low shaft speed to high shaft speed. It is true that the actual change to the curve is likely to be greater with the HSC adjuster that contacts the face shim, especially if the spring rates are similar.
i disagree unless it contacts at an angle interface and preloads the stack. in this case - there is no stack float, and the tightening of the nut that holds the piston and assembly on the rod applies more load than the high speed. Unless someone can show my data otherwise - its not a high speed adjuster. what i have seen is it moves the low speed needle in our out on some designs
@@HPRaceDevelopment Maybe I wasn't clear in my description of its function. With the spring backed all the way off the stack should behave as it does, with its actual clamp diameter, if the spring was bottomed out or infinitely stiff (they dont operate this way just hypothetical), the clamp diameter would now be that of the shim that the springs loader contacts. It's a way to vary the clamp shims effective diameter and requires a tremendously stiff spring to do that. Very narrow range, but does infact effect hsc more than lsc.
@@HPRaceDevelopment this type of adjuster shouldn't have any effect on stack cracking pressure, whereas a rim loaded hsc adjuster will raise cracking pressure significantly changing the transition from low to mid speed
@@EnglertRacing96 Yes, however it contacts the smallest clamp shim in all kyb applications. On most crfs who ran kyb there wasnt even a high speed spring in the adjuster - because someone smart realized it was wasted money. But your point is taken and noted- and properly implemented it can do something, good food for thought to make it engage say the 2nd or 3d from bottom shim
@@EnglertRacing96 Correct. except in this case - it pushes on the last, clamp shim. Which is solidly bolted to the post via the nut on the piston, like a shock piston. It's literally exactly the same as a shock top out spring
Maybe you can answer this question. I have Showa twin chambers and the pressure spring is loose in the cartridge because of the length. Is that normal with Showa TC? I noticed on your KYB, your pressure spring in the cartridge seems to have some type of preload Or in other words, it just doesn’t move around freely
The reb dampening creates about 2-3 times more force than the comp not the other way. The HS adjuster does do as say's but very little and moves independently of the low speed adjuster. If you seat the needle with the LS clicker why can you still turn in the HS adjuster?
The low speed valves are 2mm larger on the Gold Valve, So you aren't just paying for a proprietary valve stack. This does add the the plushness without sacrificing G-out or bottom resistance.
For one, They use smaller diameter shims…you cant make the valve bigger in diameter and fit it in the cartridge. Larger piston holes equate to zero improvement in plushness or bottoming resistance. Please come back with something interesting and factual.
What do you mean that the piston plays no role in damping? It's my understanding the the oil does need to pass through the ports and if the ports are large (as shown) oil will freely pass through and will only be restricted by the stack. However, if the ports are tiny, say 1mm in diameter, the fork will hydrolock at high speed movement of the forks. For example, the XR650R has tiny ports (~1.6mm) that need to be drilled out or you will never be able to valve for sharp impacts. The oil has nowhere to go. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
In modern race forks going back to the early 2000s with very few exceptions - the piston plays no role. on older forks such as xr600 or older open chamber mx forks, the pistons play a role. As a performance shop - we work on mostly new bikes of current era and our video focus shown here is a new fork.
on the high speed shock adjuster seems like you said by turning it in or out you are not changing anything. Does it not make the rear of the bike operate high or lower into the stroke and it seems to really make a difference off road on roots and chop. Can you clear this up some. Great videos.
you see the parts….and while I didnt go deep into the topic - I think if you open your mind up a little and throw away what “you heard” likely from ping or magazines - and just think about what you see there - you can make your own assessment. these magazine guys dont own, operate, or know how to develop a suspension shop. its partly why they are magazine guys…Our mx media is more corrupt and less honest than big news companies - and that is saying a lot
I did not bring up anything in magazines or what any testers say. I have been revaluing suspension for about 15 years for my own bikes and while I'm not as informed as you are I simple ask the question of why do I fill a change in how the shock responds to small and large hits from just turning the high speed adjuster. I see exactly what you are talking about in the video, it's not really changing much but there is definitely a difference in the fill of the shock when you turn the high speed a turn or more. That's what is confusing, it's definitely doing something.
@@randytidwell5836 I would say your first question didn't ask that...but if I double blind tested you - do you really think you would feel the change? As I stated - it ACTUALLY on the shock shown alters the same setting your low speed clicker alters - with larger magnitude per adjustment...aka half a turn on high speed being like 5 clicks of low speed. You could look at it like the low speed is a fine tuning adjustment and the high speed is a large/broad adjustment - on that shock. The high speed spring is rendered innefective by the design - but with a few changes - or on WP suspension the high speed will actually alter shim stack edge pressure and thusly is like a variable shim stack - which then truly alters "higher shaft speeds" and seperates low and high speed adjustment regions. In racing car shocks, they employ true high and low speed adjustment - so that a tuner and driver can independently alter both to get their wants.
@@HPRaceDevelopment The highspeed changes the load of the spring which changes the preload of the chims, so the chims get preloaded and thats the difference to the needle valve of the lowspeed
@@Schegge_Offroad except it doesnt. look at one more closey in person. the high speed kyb spring pushes on the clamp shim which is locked in placed via the stem nut at a far higher clamping force on a non preloaded shim stack design. unlimited/infinite force on the clamp shim would add zero damping. I have the dyno data to back this up - just dont care to post it. I can do a video just on the kyb vs wp where the wp DOES effect shim preload - and does so on the face shim. You could also do a high speed kyb style design that had a non clamped shim stack that free floated - which would then potentially be a high speed adjuster if proper preload and spring tension selected. The kyb honda shocks didnt even have a high speed spring in the assembly. the adjuster literally turned against nothing….for good reason. it does nothing except move low speed needle in or out
@@HPRaceDevelopment interesting just got forks revalved on my 21 and got a 24. So basically I can swap the base valve with the aftermarket valves from old forks over. I’d just need new springs to match for the lengths.
A piston CAN alter the shape of the curve some. In mx, however, be it Racetech or OEM - all about teh same design but with slightly different fluid lverage - so that a differetn shim stack is required for each piston to get the same result. I've seen some really bad ass designs in road racing and other forms of racing - but it seems in MX - a simple "digressive" piston with huge ports is what everyone uses
So stock the ktm/husky/gasgas high speed adjuster actually adjusts the high speed damping whereas kyb just moves the low speed needle in and out? What about showa? I noticed the Suzuki kyb shock has high and low speed comp and rebound adjusters. Do those actually adjust what they say?
It depends bike to bike - typically showa does something but honda has had a desire to make it ineffective over the recent years. On kyb crf - the high speed spring wasn't even in the shock on stock bikes....The "triple" adjusters are total scam...do nothing. Not even circuited inside. WP actually pushes the spring on the outer part of the shims - actually doing something.
@@mattwindell1638 I think if people took the time to really understand it - they would realize it's a non topic. It's easily measured on a dyno...and the difference is less than click of compression....The videos i've seen saying it's "sticky" or showing it dont account for thermal expansion (shocks operate at 200+ pretty much all the time) And leverage advantage of the system...where 10 lbs at the piston is less than .5 lb at the shock shaft
I like what you're trying to do in your videos, I too think the industry is full of a substantial amount of BS. I would say theres a couple of important aspects you didn't really touch on.
@@HPRaceDevelopment you touched on it with regards to the linkage. Regardless of the brand the volume of fluid flow can be calculated from the area of the mid valve/main piston x stroke. Then for the base valve/ cadj it's the same formula just using the rod numbers. I feel the most Important aspect is balancing the damping across the 2 opposing valves relative to these numbers. If the mid valve flows 2.67 x the volume as the base valve as is the case on my bladder forks the the mid should do roughly 2.67 x the damping. We don't talk anywhere enough about the force vs displacement graphs and the corresponding profiles. I also believe piston port geometry is Important not because of flow restrictions but because of the influence it has on the pressure balances. Your shims in the wp shock video allude to what I'm talking about, check out the shim fatigue. Anyway the point you're making is they're all essential the same and to that I say f#@k yes!
@@vinceseyb2640 These videos are intended to bring in the laymen who have never seen the insides of a fork or shock - or kyb vs showa vs wp. I hope to - in simple terms - show various "valving" set ups from various outlets - to help people along on what they are actually accomplishing. I've been working on some things to show basic data but the issue is - most consumers in our industry dont care to know any of this stuff. It's of course the nuances of design that separate all these companies - and more importantly the chassis of each bike and the suspension balance front and rear...but at the end of the day - to avg joe who felt the bladder fork was shit - but never saw how nice it was inside (and what del saggio made a killing on reselling/rebranding) - or that the std bladder fork was really really soft in valving - so maybe their harshness wasn't damping related (or at least too stiff related) I hope we can open their eyes a little as to how similar all this stuff is.
@@HPRaceDevelopment I have no doubt you're fighting the good fight and I applaud your efforts. You are right, theres a limit to what the average consumer wants to hear and it doesn't take much before the mouth partially opens and the eyes glaze over and the thing I find most frustrating is that it's not that these people don't have the ability to understand the finer details, more that they just don't want to hear it. Riders actually get offended when you try to explain that the only substantial difference between the pro's brand x bikes suspension and theirs is the damping curve and if that curve was replicated on their bike they'd probably hate it. I'll share a video and time stamp.
This seems like an absolute ball ache to do but I can't keep riding my 2022 WR450 the way it is. After 6 hours of trail riding I literally have to sleep on my back for 2 days because I'm that sore.
@@6Twisted do your owner groups post up youtube videos of the settings like i did? No. They send their suspension out to a shop and then claim oh wow the shop made the pistons flow more! meanwhile they have no idea. with every change comes a sacrifice. The wr is less than half as stiff as the mx bikes. You can pull all the valving out if you want - iVe seen shops do it - and then your bike is truly for nothing but 10mph trails and limited road use.
its hard to exactly equate the two - as the high speed moves the needle farther with less turn the low. a better way to think is the high makes a bigger low speed change and the low fine tunes the setting you put the high to like on a radio you dial in 97 then you have.1-.9 to fine tune
Great cut the BS video information is a rare commodity these days because it takes away the mystery and brings back the truth that there’s nothing new under the sun just different ways of applying fluid dynamics control. Thanks for being honest! 🙏👍
I disagree. My 2013 wp shock does have the same style HS adjuster and it is effective! What it is actually doing is pushing on the exposed portion of the "clamp shim". With no force from the HS spring the shinstack clamp diameter is essentially the diameter of the post that the spring slides on. If you could bottom that spring out (lock it up essentially) then the active clamp diameter would be the OD of the said clamp shim. So somewhere in between with SOME pressure on the "clamp shim" it changes how much the "clamp shim" can flex, changing the effective clamp diameter which is substantial on any shimstack. Interesting about the linkage ratio.
The clamp shim on KYB does NOT flex It's far too stiff. What people are not graspign is the high speed ACTUALLY moves the low speed needle LARGE movements and teh low speed is small movements. That's really what a kyb HS adjustment does. WP current HS are WAY different. Their spring pushes on face shim, and preloads it using a soft spring relative to kyb. KYB on hondas didn't even have a spring - it just doesn't do anything. The WP HS adjuster does NOT move the LS adjuster - the are independant. I HAVE a kyb design that IS a HS adjsuter - it uses a collar on tehe shaft and 8mm id shims that can float. The HS spring pushes on this stack and after preload force is overcame the whole stack lifts per coil spring rate. This is what almost all A kit shocks use, or the WP style method, or both sometimes.
