So your telling me that both AMD and Intel built a new generation of CPUs for the 99 percent of folks who either buy OEM machines or who don't plan to buy a 5090. The tech involved helps both companies in the data center market. Amazing - logic was used The high end chips from both companies are great for heavily threaded loads. AMD is even producing the 9800X3D for gamers with a 5090. Its the low end and mid range chips that seem kind of meh - pricy and not any better for their use case. 90 percent of this market would be fine with a cheap 12th gen Intel or a 5000 AMD CPU
Maybe if this channel and several other channels realized that computers are useful for things other than gaming they'd have done a better job discussing computer tech.
@@ZiggyMercury It's really tiring, there's very few (larger sized) channels to find a good, plain discussion of computer hardware, or finding a perspective on new hardware that isn't just for gaming.
Well... it's looking more and more like the 9950X3D is going to be the way forward for me. I was interested in seeing how these new chips perform, but seeing the platform and connectivity that's supported on the new boards is... disappointing.
@@fachasaurus Yeah, I'm just biding my time until then. I've already started buy the non-platform dependent parts. All I need to see what the B850 board have to offer compared to the 870 boards. Should be a pretty decent upgrade from my 5950X/3080 Ti.
Next gen Intel could make more gains in gaming performance. While 9950x3d might only get 5% over 4000x3d. Wait till 5000rtx comes out, should see some good benchmarks of these new CPUs.
@@BonusCrook lol ikr? AMD got so much backlash they had to patch their windows drivers to let their 9000 series operate outside of their comfort zone (or more precisely outside of their "efficiency gains") just to please some gamers for a 4% uplift in performance for the cost of 100W lol
i'm on the same boat tbh. i'm at a position right now that i just have to upgrade, i'm on a 3770k and really had hopes for the 285k to be something good. but the fact that LGA1851 is going to be a single use socket, and a platform that is DOA kinda makes me not want to bother with it anymore no matter if its performance is the same as 14900k just more power efficient. and on the meanwhile AMD also has fucked up with their 9000 series going the exact same route of favoring efficiency over performance, only to then have massive backlash from their community and lose sales, until they patched their CPU drivers to disregard the efficiency locks and let their 9000 series CPUs have 4% uplift in performance for the cost of 100W. at this point i'm really sure that the PC component market is absolutely fucked. and thats just speaking on CPU's, with GPUS the situation is even far far worse
I wouldn't be surprised if they cancel 18A in favour of focusing on 14A, in the same way they did with 20A. That way, they can keep the can rolling for longer, until people start getting suspicious about Intel Foundries.
Rumours already saying that new motherboards cost more than last gen... So it's even worse even if the price is right... Motherboards alone holding back this new generation CPUs for the past 2 year... It's sad that they are not addressing price control for motherboards...
8:26 "unlike AMD there's no (...) 6 year old Tomb Raider..." You need to get your eyes checked there bud... that's *_Shadow of the Tomb Raider (2018)_* there on the 5th column. We're now in 2024... well the math isn't hard ay
100000%, two whole generations. That's many, many more than Intel, which only supported 12/13/14th gen on LGA1700. Don't even get me STARTED on TR40 and sTR40. Those saw so many generations that it was ridiculous.
though, the problem that AMD has always had was that their previous PGA sockets were holding them back significantly - there is so much you can do with PGA before it becomes your CPU's weakpoint. so in AM5 they switched to LGA which immediately provided them a huge leap in performance to compete directly with Intel. but for who knows why AMD decided it was a good idea to favor efficiency over performance with ZEN5 - who the fuck thought this was a good idea to do this to a CPU platform that is mainly targeted at gamers? and now Intel are doing the same - who the fuck cares about NPUs in a desktop platform that's usually targeted at GAMERS? they should've split their desktop offering into more SKU's, ones that have these NPUs and favor efficiency over performance, and ones that dont have these NPU's and favor performance instead...
I always thought that a high-end computer is useful also for things like huge excel sheets, demanding code, video and photo editing and so forth. But, judging by this video (and videos from many other channels), apparently they're only useful for gaming. I guess I'll run my huge Excel sheets on a PlayStation...
While i think an npu isn't very helpful these days for most ppl, i think the overall strategy (on desktop) of using die space for latency sensitive coprocessors instead of just adding in features easily dumped to the chipset or add in cards is good If in 10 years, we use actual neural net AI to run NPCs in games, those need to get evaluated as fast as possible, having that on-die is a huge win. Much more than the wifi controller So the concept is sound, just a bit imperfectly timed/applied for right now
if you wanted to buy a 14900K but didn't want to buy a time bomb CPU, this is the answer. same perf as 14900K (give or take a few %) but at lower power. I am want to see what 9800X3D has to offer.
@@HardwareCanucks The word DOA and the tombstone thumbnail immediately drives a negative response, thus making more likely for people to click on the video. You know what you did.
@@ktwei It refers to the point that the chip is worse at gaming than its predecessor and the platform will only get one generation of processors. Thats why its a hypothetical question in the title.
It’s definitely clickbait - it’s hyperbolic and begging for attention with the tombstone and word choice. Whether or not it’s posed as an interrogative makes no difference - that’s an invalid defense. Combining a history of that with their immature replies on viewer comments is a good way to lose subscribers.
There is a large benefit to an NPU. You can offload AI processing while doing graphics processing at the same time. Think, AI in video games. It's also much easier to integrate because AI on the GPU requires the user to install a complex bulky CUDA runtime manually while intel NPUs are supported out of the box. It's pretty cool
maybe yeah. but that's really because we are told that x is going to do y better. in reality, there is no real 'why' are we using these things. before a cpu was a cpu. it did everything for anyone, but got faster. today we are told ai is better here, but what is ai?
@@albertcamus6611 what they mean is just acceleration of the specific linear algebra functions used in neural network algorithms. If you run the AI on the CPU, other things like physics and game logic are significantly impacted. If you run it on the GPU, you will only be able to draw half as many frames because the GPU is occupied doing AI. It also massively limits the available VRAM for graphics processing, while system RAM is typically abundant
SHHHH! The hivemind has already decided that AI = bad. We all know that "nobody" runs AI workloads now, which means that "nobody" will ever run them in the future, making the tech dead before it even existed.
@@lennart5738 yes but run what ? Most people don't need these new AI features. Besides I have 24gb of vram. An NPU is pointless for what I'm doing. It certainly won't limit frames to 50%. If you're not using ray tracing the tensor cores are probably doing nothing.
I'll stay on my AMD AM5 platform & Apple M chips for my laptop. intel is deat to me after 13 & 14th gen CPUs & all the issues both game me. No more Intel for me...
this series looks perfectly fitted for bigger laptop cpus that lunar lake doesn't cover, but lunar lake already covers the name 285 for laptops. this is stupid, they should put an arrow lake into big gaming laptops, that's where they can shine
you dont really need an ultra 9 285k/14900k to game if you are squeezing and fighting for 4-8 fps, maybe you should consider upgrading the gpu instead rather than a whole new plattform, the fact that the arrow lake does the same than a 14900k in games while consuming way less power its an excellent win, less power, less heat, less electricity bill, edit: (yes im aware we can no longer expect the techological jumps we used to have in the past, double-triple digit performance upgrade, we are barely scrapping by 3-8% upgrades each generation, for that the only answer i think that can be said is: time can only tell, and dont open your wallets so eagerly every time XYZ company announces a doodad for their doodads)
Yeah that's what Intel did before Ryzen now they are both doing it is not that they can't is that there is people who would say "is okay" and buy this sh*t
I am now currently thinking of trying to be a Linux user (OpenSUSE Tumbleweed) with full AMD hardware. If 9800x3d is great and RDNA 4 is great and power efficient (because electricity bills sucks in my country), I might just jump into Linux (to start learning it before W10 EOL).
I like the direction intel is headed though i doubt it can compete with the upcoming 9000X3D chips in pure efficiency and gaming performance. The biggest letdown for me is the measly 9% IPC uplift and the lack of hyperthreading, which may not cope well in core heavy games, especially the 245K having only 6 P threads.
intel going from 'intel 7' to tsmc 3nm could only squeeze out 5-10% single thread gain and 10-20% multi thread gain? amd ryzen going from tsmc 7 (zen2, say 3800x) to tsmc 4 (zen5, 9700x) single thread performance went up 70%, multi thread up 60%. where did all that process gain go for intel? oto, 6nm io chiplet/tile support 8000mhz memory is nice.
This release is so shady. If they the thermals are that much lower ofc the first thing overclockers are going to do is take the termals the what their cooler's rated for. Why not just give us those numbers out of the box? I'm thinking it's because it won't stack up
Intel's Arrow Lake S lineup is a fascinating pivot towards efficiency, and I find it refreshing! While some may dismiss it as underwhelming, the focus on power consumption and heat management is a bold move in today’s eco-conscious landscape. The absence of SMT might raise eyebrows, but it could lead to a more streamlined performance that prioritizes real-world applications over raw numbers. Sure, it may not outpace the 14900K in gaming, but the upgraded XE LPG graphics core and the introduction of an NPU signal Intel's commitment to innovation. This could be the start of a new era!
Well here's the thing...we don't actually know what the real story is. Yes, efficiency when gaming and in lightly threaded workloads seems to have increased by an order of magnitude. But what I want to know is if these chips still hit 250W in all core workload situations and close to that in games like Cyberpunk (14900K before came close to 200W in that one). If that's the case its a smaller victory than we hope. Likely thing is that Intel's going to use a sliding scale to determine all core workload power.
@@HardwareCanucks I get where you’re coming from, but the shift to efficiency doesn’t need to mean sacrificing performance across the board. Even if Arrow Lake’s power draw hits high levels under certain all-core workloads, Intel's approach seems less about dominating every single metric and more about optimizing for the tasks that most people care about day-to-day. As for gaming? The majority of titles won’t come close to pushing that kind of wattage. We need to appreciate that Intel is laying the groundwork for a smarter balance between power and performance, instead of just throwing more cores and heat at the problem.
These benchmarks all coming from Intel are the reason you can't believe any of this. These companies ALWAYS cherry pick and use any trick they can to make their new stuff look better.
AMD chose a wise step with leaving cores and threads and adding 3d cache, Intel fucked up with their semi-efficient Ecores - in before they are mobile cpus at best.
The E-Cores were an interesting addition and they still are but Windows is such a mess with scheduling it will probably still take a couple of generations until Microsoft gets it right.
I have an unstable 14900KS. I can get my money back and get another cpu but I have to buy a new mother board to do so. I have a Arctic Freezer 420 so cooling is decent and a 4090. I play mostly games but play with some LLMs and Stable Difussion and virtual machines. What do you guys think I should do? If I get a left over motherboard I think I will get a cheaper CPU and build a little server with my current Z790 board. I am thinking about getting a 9800X3D if it comes out this fall.
It depends. Are you relying on the CPU for those LLMs and Stable Diffusion or are you using TensorRT? Because if its through TensorRT, CPU speed doesn't matter as much as GPU horsepower anyways.
I'd upgrade the bios on your motherboard so you have the latest microcode which supposedly keeps the CPU's from burning up, then get intel to send you another CPU, Install it and just use your PC.
It was designed "to put efficiency before overall performance" 🤣 Is that a slogan from Intel marketing slides? The only ground up thing here is related to using TSMC fabs now so obviously some redesign had to be made. And since now the cost of the silicon is out of their hands, they had to go the same route they were laughing about 7 years ago - gluing chips together to save some pennies. For Intel tho doing Tick (proces node change) and Tock (u arch change to fit that totally unknown node and tile splitting) was probably the most brave move in the history of their company, so well yeah, let them have the credit 😄 The efficiency came solely from using latest and greatest 3nm process node from TSMC for the core tiles and they fact that they had to exchange any measurable performance gains to achieve this is quite sad in my opinion. I don't doubt those CPU's will be good for some use cases, mostly productivity workloads while gaming had to be put down in priority, it's something like Zen1 day for Intel, which might be the best thing they did in decade. Let's see on the actual real world performance reviews, to find out if it's time to get some discounted Intel stocks.
Civilization as a benchmark game? Are you serious? Great, you got a better single core and have more FPS in a static top down view. How about the time to process a big map with lots of bots with half the threads?
Pretty bad, the reason to upgrade now is really PCIE5, but and the hope that they realize nobody cares about power consumption and release something better for the same socket. A lot of ifs to jump in now, and wasted money as you would likely upgrade in a year. So the question is really can you wait another year before upgrading.
the current generation is already expensive despite being defective.. then comes a new architecture with everything bumped up in price and no substantial upgrade from last gen.. guess we should wait for the next generation.. AMD 7000 may stay the best for a while
You'd think with each passing year these fanboys would mature and gain wisdom, but no, just like these new Arrow Lake CPUs there's very little growth or advancement to be found.
LOL I just bought 14gen processor why I need to buy new motherboard and processor again and what happened to my files if I jump to new platforms. Probably going to wait another 3-4-5 yers to change to new platforms
I can't really greenwash my computer setup with this new CPU. The efficiency in power consumption is totally negated because my home is electric power hungry and I have 2 electric cars charging simultaneously at 11kw/hr in my garage at times everyday. I'm headed again towards AMD. I'm buying a 9850X3D and RTX 5090 when those come out to replace my 7950X3D and 4090.
285K extreme Wattage I saw at 295W. Also the 250W is questionable as the 285K and 265K have different clock speeds. For me this is something for new builds. I'm looking at APO and Battlemage. The new Z890 has direct 5.0 PCI lane to CPU as does X870. This is REBAR on steroids. So simply put 285K and Battlemage dual GPU performance with no restrictions link to CPU. To me Wattage is performance. In Wattage it will look 250-295W (285K) + 250-275W (Battlemage) = 500-570W of combined performance. All this on paper to my view lifts the ARC from Alchemist to Battlemage more than double. We have Xe vs Xe2 that already is 50% gain. Predicted clock speed is 3000mhz if not more from 2400mhz (boost) to give a good lift also. APO another 10-50% predicted on supported games. XeSS XMX on bar with DLSS. This is what I'm waiting to see what will this pairing do? Would I dare to say beating 5080?
I'm at least a year out before considering this CPU. Considering Intel's track record, I want someone else to be the guinea pig to prove they aren't junk like the 13th and 14th gen. It's the same reason you never buy the first model year of any car.
Wow what a great deal. Buy a chip that's slower, less threads, still inefficient, and yet another new motherboard that's likely good for only 1 generation.
Are we just forgetting that Intel completely ducked up 2 generations of CPUs? They’re dead, just done for I’m not hyped, I expected lower wattage but AMD already had it with the previous generation.
@@thetechrealist It's all 65W and up Raptor Lake-based SKUs on 13/14th gen that are affected (important emphasis on Raptor Lake based because there are some Alder Lake dies in some SKUs which are NOT affected).
@@HardwareCanucks *YIKES*, I hope this is sarcasm. Intel stated it affected any CPU with a TDP of 65 watts or greater. Maybe less time spent making tombstone thumbnails for products that haven't shipped and more time educating yourself on the 13/14th gen situation is in order.
I highly doubt that Intel's market share in the consumer desktop market will grow with ARL and they were already at 8% at Mindfactory lately. No AVX 10.2/AVX-512 and no gaming performance improvements won't get them anywhere and the efficiency improvements alone won't get them much sales either. There is also no incentive to invest into LGA18XX as a platform, as the chances are high that there is no newer generation on that socket.
Imagine what this review would be like if AMDs 9000 series wasn't a 'meh' product and had achieved the performance increases of previous Ryzen generations. Intel is really fortunate that AMD produced a really underwhelming CPU this generation.
I can run my 14900k on DDR5 9000, so what is exactly Intel's point? 10:49 -> there is no overclocking for this junk. Remember it uses the TSMC process which is horrible for overclocking just like an AMD chip. There is no performance to squeeze out of this junk.
It does look interesting for work loads but unfortunately intel may run into the same issue amd has with the 9000 series. It was/is doa as none of the models beat the 7800x3d. The same will go for this launch. Not a single intel chip can beat one that’s 1 and a half years old. They will probably just sit on the shelf. And as for the 9800x3d. If that’s anything over 10% gains. No one will buy anything else. Ps work people buy pcs with way way way more than 32 threads
I heard a TON of people saying that big.LITTLE wasn't well suited for the desktop, but here we are on the fourth generation with it. Once we got past the hiccups it had it had at first it was great.
I think this processor is great for MS surface and still provide good graphics performance. But microsoft did choose the U series which is slow and less igpu performance maybe comparable with old generation. 🤦🏻♂️
@@HardwareCanucks Apart from security bugs decrease due to not using HT and lower power draw due to the manufacturing process improved, what else is better? Pricing, platform longegivity or huge jump in performance? None.
13:15 let’s hope some games start using the NPU for something but then again it might be better to do all that on the GPU 🤷♂️. Yes little stupid on a desktop PC, would make sense to offload some tasks to this NPU for power saving on a laptop or smaller pc but yeah idk
So the next gen of desktop CPUs to answer the problems issssssssss, ladies and gentlemen,,,,,,, No hyperthreading and better power consumption (cough 250w load while boosting cough) so your DESKTOP BATTERY will last longer now, and less frequency.
The Intel fan boys in their feelings about the doa part 😂 . Lets be realistic here: Intel has a lot of issues, and with the cancelation of certain product's and them being behind on their nodes, it wasn't looking good at all. Intel should do ok now that amd dropped the ball with ryzen 9000. Neither one of them made me want to upgrade from my 7950x or 12900k. Disappointing year for cpu launches.
I really feel for the engineers, having to work out a solution a year late and transitioning from failed Intel fabs. It's a patchwork quilt, a shame when TSMC 3 nm is so good. They're saving cost here, but priced higher than expected. We needed a 8P+8E package, under 200 W, at $300 US.
Personally, while these are billed as gaming first CPUs to enthusiasts (or at least they were in the past), the addition of things like a half-decent iGPU and NPU points towards Arrow Lake being an "everything" product. What Intel needs to offset this approach is a dedicated gaming CPU. Maybe something with a pure 10-16 P-Cores and tons of cache backing it up.
@HardwareCanucks They're in quite a predicament honestly, the next moves are crucial. Agreed, a future all P-core design, abandoning big.LITTLE might save this market segment. Also agreed, this successor to Lunar Lake is pointed towards the SoC mainstream. It may all be a bit too late. They are still in a position for more aggressive pricing for the time being, despite the financial woes.
@HardwareCanucks yeap its a good at everything but doesn't stand out on anything. To be fair to the mass market, that's a good thing. As long as they don't have issues, they will make money with oems no problem. As for gaming, I would like to see a "ks" version, but just P cores to take on the r7 x3d chips, 8 cores vs 8 cores. They kept trying to fight a purpose built 8 core x3d with their all-around halo product and don't think that's a good idea.
It seems that these CPUs are the same as 13th and 14th gen but without multithreading. Doesn't concern me, i'll be upgrading my 7950X3D to 9950X3D when it comes out. In the meantime i'll put in a new ASRock X870E Nova WiFi mobo in my RiG while and see how it works with my 7950X3D while i wait for the 9950X3D.
@@HardwareCanucks You don't think its game over? You're talking about an improvement in efficiency like its the 2nd coming of Christ! Customers have efficiency of CPU's at the very bottom of their list...You would advise someone looking to purchase one of these ultra intel CPU's over AMD why exactly? In this video you seem like you're trying you're best at damage limitation & clever semantics...
For me this CPU is DOA. Being 21% slower in Cyberpunk 2077 than 14900k running in baseline is a f. joke. Imagine against my 345W custom cooled 5.7/4.6 DDR5 8200 14900k -> 30%+ difference. Folks, there is nothing here for gamers. If I disable HT on my CPU, it can run 6.2/4.6 and won't go over 200W. Arrow Lake is absolute trash in my opinion. According to Intel slide Arrow Lake vs Raptor Lake baseline uses only 80W less of total system power. 80W means f. squat, that is nothing. I bet you this junk will be so aggressive on switching tasks to E cores thus saving power, what a latency shit show. I bet you a lot of games will just run on E cores. If you are in a market get 9800X3D for gaming or 9950X3D for more processing power. Skip this Intel junk. If you already have Zen 4 or 14900k skip this generation and get Nvidia 5090.
To be fair Cyberpunk is one of the most highly threaded games we've seen which is why it was so affected by the AND scheduler updates in 24H2. Then again, it also might plot a course for the future where more games use more threads.
The question is though....if Arrow Lake is already hitting $600 and Bartlett comes out for LGA1700...it would retail for what? $700? Price inflation is a scary thing.
How much fps enthusiasts need? 100, 1.000, 10.000? How much enthusiasts are there on the market, compared to regular gamers? What's the sense in making pc's that draw power like an owen and cost thousands? Intel's on a good track.
My first couple of gaming rigs between 2000 to 2010 were AMD builds. After 2010 starting with Core 2 Duo, I've been with Intel. I would go back to AMD if 9800X3D blows Arrow Lake out of the water.
This makes me very optimistic about getting high performance gaming laptops with good battery life. Really looking forward to the likes of Zephyrus G16 or even Blade 18 with 265K or 285K paired with an RTX 5080
Intel will always win. Their drivers are more stable, their software and motherboard features are better. We are saying hey your more stable but slightly slower then AMD okay dosnt help if AMD causes crashes? Intel and Microsoft work together much more than AMD. Why do you think the main hosting sites all use intel? Stability wins at the end of the day.
I am hoping Intel can come back, If it is all just AMD then you get what AMD has done with their 9000 series chips where they are not worth it and waiting for the x3d variant to fix the issue. without competition AMD will become no different than any other OEM who does not have to compete
A _somewhat_ informative video but the click-bait Title is really off-putting. It has been known for months that HT was gone. Intel has detailed the many reasons why. And you get the same performance at up to 165W less of system power. If your only metric is how many frames you can get in Cyberpunk @ 1440p then you really should just focus on your graphics card. However, if you need fast productivity workloads and just occasionally game, then this CPU could be a good upgrade.
You are correct, there aren't many surprises here but what WAS a surprise is that Intel is failing to beat previous generation CPUs in gaming. Like I said, YES the power savings can be a huge benefit but these are enthusiast CPUs that are being targeted towards power users and in that space, the jury is still out about what's more of a priority, performance or power consumption.
