For those questioning what is meant by keeping the starter in water; the Italian method is 1 part starter, 1 part flour and 45%(apx) hydration to flour. When kneaded and formed into a ball/loaf shape it’s put into a volume of water 3 times the volume of the starter. This method is one of two I know of which are used to control acidity in the preparation of panettone...
Thanks for this answer c fazio! You make me curious what the other method is. Is there a method more suitable for our 'common' artisan sourdough bread?
@@Gokukakarot-onRU-vid The other method is even more work. The lievito is bound in plastic and cloth and tied tightly. I use a stiff starter kept in the fridge. If it's too acidic you can put it in water with a few grams of sugar to "wash" it before refreshing. For bread I never have to do this. As I mentioned, the method used by the Italians is for optimal acid balance for making panettone.
@@the_bread_code Why do you say in your liquid starter video that using a liquid starter makes a more yogurty bread, less acidic. and this guy says different. please explain. thanks
@@cfazioI've seen Karl demonstrate the stiff starter method. I had no idea that such a thing existed so naturally I found it fascinating. Apparently I have much to learn.
What an amazing guest to feature! My previous career was head brewer at a small craft brewery. I was always fascinated by the microbiology of beer. Sourdough is just as complex and interesting to me, so this was very fun to watch. Thanks!
That was so interesting. I learned so much. Now i know why my starter was so much more successful when I kept it stiff. The yeast were happier. They made a nicer bread. So fascinating.
Thank you both. Excellent interview and fantastic answers. I had no idea when I started (to try) baking sourdough a couple of years ago that this crazy obsessed community of bread lovers all over the world even existed. Huge thanks!! 👏👏👏
Absolutely fascinating. This format is wonderful- thank you for doing this work and sharing this knowledge! Making bread is a skill that all should be free to master, and harnessing as much knowledge as possible is the secret!
Thanks for a very insightful discussion! Karl has been selfless with his time and knowledge. A monthly episode using each starter to bake the same recipe is surely next?
It would make sense to dry the samples immediately and cold store a sample, (in the library) then compare after a year to the original samples..after all the feedings, etc..
Hi Henrik iam from India .. iam building an hobby of pizza baking and I love pizza very much to eat and bake, I am baking pizza at home from last 3 year's when we have pandemic, I build my own fir wood oven with the help of my two kids Now I'm in search of how to make sour dough pizza in mean time I got your you tube videos you are awesome.. iam learning all about sour dough starter and I am started watching all your uploaded videos learning a lot from you Henrik, thank you so much and this video will help me very much.. hear in India it's hard to get high gluten flour..so it is a challenging to me to make good and testy pizza please give me some guidance depending upon our place.., thank you...
What a great interview. Thanks for this. He is certainly the guy you want looking after your starter. One thing I was confused about though, he said keep the starter in water. Can anyone tell me what he meant by this? Thank you
@@the_bread_code thanks for replying to my message. I appreciate it. What ration flour to water would be a good stiff starter then? Oh, need to check out your video. Thanks
-2 degrees really? I thought yeast became dormant before it reacht that temperature? I have always thought it was the opposit. That yeast prefer warmer temps to do their fermentation and the lactic bacterias prefered colder temps? Yes the sourdough knollage was lost when commersial yeast was introduced. But some bakery have baked with sourdough the last 80 years like Poilane. I really live Karl! What a guy! Great idea with the sourdough powder. I am a chef, but have never thought about this
Karl is amazing! I wish I had a job like yours. I have a unique sourdough from Canada that is very young, 3.5 years old, consisting of Canadian Acadia Heritage wheat, Organic Stone Ground Whole White Flour, rye and Buckwheat inoculated with yeast from Cannabis. I would love to share with you and the library.
Fascinating interview. I missed the live part unfortunately, would have wanted to know about the lactic acid and the other yoghurt type acid. Karl seems to say that the dry sourdough has less lactic acid, depending on the flour of course.... I do have good results with the 200% hydrated sourdough though. Learned a lot but also many more new questions :).
If I did so that's my mistake. It was already ate in the evening and had done already a couple of these interventions earlier that evening. Stiff starters tend to be more acidic. Liquid starters more lactic. Although liquid starters have higher concentrations of organic acids in general. The acetic flavour of stiff starters is more pungent and as such you might have the impression these are more acid than liquid starters. Hope this helps to clarify. Again, my apologies is I confused you.
Great interview, Hendrik! 👏 Very interesting stuff! Not sure about the eight hour limit though, I assume he meant with a 1:1:1 ratio in 21C. I usually make levain at 1:10:10 and Inoculate about ten hour later, which I feel results in the same starter situation as if I fed with 1:2:2 and use it after 5 hours... Also - I completely lost it when the microphone died and robot mode activated 😂
I say this indeed to a 1:1;1 ratio. We have not really looked yet into all the aspects and different ratio's and their optimum. Sounds like a nice task for my next intern...
isn't all the sourdough in the library eventually going to be essentially be the same, being in one place? I would assume once the sourdough is taken out of its home and original yeast it will change to the environment where is and the yeast there.
funny, I've started with LM but I was so annoyed mixing that stiff starter that I've switched or more transformed the LM to sourdough^^ I've just made it more liquity. The starter is about 8-9 month old now and 3 months of it was LM. To start with LM wasn't relly easy, it's way slower or at least it was a very slow process for me. My hypothesis was LM is meant for a warmer enviroment like Italy and that's the reason (or one of it) they use LM instead of Anstellgut ;)
I have watched this video more than 5 times now! There are so many new things to learn. Tomorrow, I'm making a new dough based on a water-stored sourdough. I will use my pH meter to check on the fermentation. One thing makes me wonder though. Karl tells us that 8 hours is the max to ferment, because after that, the yeast dies of the acidity etc. But my dough will take a bit longer to ferment than 8 hours and the pH is still higher than 4.5 by then. Also, the water-stored sourdough can probably could take just a bit more than 8 hours, and 4 is too few. But to be sure, I will go to bed late and get up early as to not exceed the time limit. And I have fed my sourdough 4 times by then today, to optimize the yeast as the librarian teaches us. I guess I have to experiment and trust my experience as well. Thanks again Hendrik for bringing us these interesting insights and interesting people from around the baking world.
Is is possible that Karl is talking about a wholemeal starter in regards to the 8 hours? I have an 20% wholemeal starter, rest is flour. The fermentation in my starter may be slower?
I mention the 8 hours referring to maintain the optimal fermentation power of the yeast. And avoiding I get my breads become too acid. My wife and kids hate it when the bread I make is sour..., A book from 1778 by Augustin Parmentier is already mentioning that sourdough should not be sour.
@@KarlDeSmedt Thanks for your explenation, this makes my understanding of sourdough a lot better. Even if I misunderstood some parts of the more solid or more liquid sourdough and acidic vs lactic from watching the video, it was clear that there are many more aspects that are important. The big picture that I took from it is that the consortium of bacteria an yeast can be influenced by me in more ways than I was aware of before. And this is probably just scratching the surface. I too want the non-sour bread and I'm working to find the circumstances that lead to the optimal fermentation so do many experiments. Hope to see you soon again in a future video!
At 57:20 Karl stated referring to his starter, "I make it stiff, stiff, very hard and I keep it in water. So the acids that are produced during the fermentation are diluted in the water". What does he mean, how can a starter be stiff & dry and kept in water to dilute and acid?
Such a great interview ! I really hope to see Karl's on a channel again, maybe judging bread too ! Anyway, isn't that fleur de levain made with the 150 starters ? Because it looks like it could be hydrated and fed and possibly relived ? I mean, Karl said he dry it at 100 degree C but I'm not sure that that they are completely dead...Possibly they are, but possibly not completely.
The micro-organisms are really dead... No way to revive it with the original ones. I'm sure that if you mix it with water and flour it will revive. But it will be the micro-organisms from the flour and environment that will take the lead...
@@the_bread_code Oh, Thanks. Then there's the 4.1 starter ph and the no over 4 hrs old starter issues. Isn't he being a bit aaaanal? My starter is well over that at its peak, even after feeding it a 1-5 ratio with rye flour.
Hello, I was just going to shape my second sourdough bread ever 15 mins ago. I am sure that it was over fermented. I did not know when to shap since the sample did not rise at all. Why did this happen?
@@rasmusmller2063 Hmm interesting... anyway, you should not depend that much on this sample if your dough has risen properly. Put the dough into a measurable container and keep an eye on it. I take samples, usually shape the dough when the sample rises around 20 % more of its original volume. It is easier to shape, stich, etc. if it is not that puffy.
@@jodamester1000 yes, I was thinking the same. Next time i Will bulk ferment in a plastic container, so i have more control over the doughs bulk fermenting. Thanks!
What does Karl mean by keeping the sourdough in water? This he mentions around 58:40. How to have a dry sourdough and keep that in water at the same time?
@@qwerty11111122 I imagine that your advice is to put water on top of the stiff starter, of course inside the jar (or not?). Then do you toss the water out again when you use the starter? Or do you use this water to mix into the bread dough?
I hope Puratos is not trying to market this "bread improver" that makes baguettes blister free anymore. I think that blister free bread is an abomination.
The whole "no blister" wave is actually coming from the "Coupe du Monde" (world championship" Bakery. One of the criteria is to make baguettes that are not having blisters.... Hence this request from the market... important
@@the_bread_code thanks a lot. I will try this. My family doesn’t like the sour taste. So I want to make less sour bread. I don’t want to go back to yeast😭
In this video ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-l_8UDwFETZo.html Karl says a stiff starter makes more lactic tasting starter whereas a more liquid starter makes more source tasting starter. This is in contrast to what he answered your question in your video.
I think it's more complex than that. I think you want to cultivate anaerobic bacteria. Oxygen always leads to acetic acid. It could be the case with stiffer dough. I need to investigate more 🤓
@@the_bread_code yea, you did mention that covering the starter with water prevents oxygen intake so the taste would be more lactic than acidic which I'm trying to acheive. Last time my kids didn't eat the bread complaining it being too sour. It was the flat bread: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-LRpJxvP-G9A.html . I had to throw away my starter and go back to yeast but I cultivated once again. It is 6 days into its life so far and I'm trying a stiff one this time to see if it is sour again similarly or more lactic in taste.
Vielen Dank für den gluten Livestream ;) It was really interesting, but at one point I was confused. Karl says that stiff starter tends to be more mild and yoghurty in taste, but I found a video where he says the complete opposite: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-l_8UDwFETZo.html That leaves me confused. What is your experience? I am working with wheat only (for now) and I am looking for a mild taste. And in the other video he also discusses the temperature factor when it comes to acidity, saying that 35 °C ends up milder than around 20 °C. So far so good. What happens when you keep your starter at fridge temperatures? I think I have somewhere read or heard that the yeast continues to work (but slower) while the lactic acid bacteria cease their activity completely. I would conclude that bulk fermentation in the fridge produces even milder results then. Any thoughts on that? Thank you very much. Greetings from Vienna.
If I did so that's my mistake. It was already late in the evening and had done already a couple of these interventions earlier that evening. Stiff starters tend to be more acidic. Liquid starters more lactic. Although liquid starters have higher concentrations of organic acids in general. The acetic flavour of stiff starters is more pungent and as such you might have the impression these are more acid than liquid starters. Hope this helps to clarify. Again, my apologies is I confused you.
@@KarlDeSmedt Hello Karl, no worries. Thank you very much for your explanation on the issue, that helps me a lot. Could you share your experience of yeast vs. lactic acid bacteria at fridge temperatures? Does bulk fermentation at fridge temperature result in a milder taste? Thank you for sharing your knowledge. This is highly appreciated. Greetings from Vienna
Nah 😔 That's not it... I give you and your channel and all your other interview partners a thumbs up. But this interview was just a plug for Puratos. Please, please click thought their website and see what they make. They're one of the biggest producers of enzymes to make doughs rise quicker, make them go though machines etc etc. Search for enzymes on their site: NOTHING. Not a single mention. I think they play a disgusting game and are part of the "bad breads" movement. Their products range is nothing but rip open bag and add water convenience bread mixes. 🤢 I hope you as an engineer (I am one myself) will do more research before interviewing people from huge corporations again.
@Joao Fonseca Is there publicly available research like papers or articles by him/them? I did a quick search and found nothing. Maybe I don't know the right place to look, though... The sourdough library page is plain marketing as it seems. Fancy pictures, a few numbers. That's it basically. Oh and of course the many many links to their products. Non-profit, yeah. They know their game :) Can you point me in the right direction?
@Joao Fonseca Hey, I'm not here to be right or win an internet discussion ;) Far from that, really. It's just plain obvious that they take sourdoughs from all over the world, analyse them and keep the findings to themselves AND make new products from their research for the big cash. They ride the "you don't need to put enzymes on the ingredients list" train big time. That's just not the people I trust 😉
You mean, it's just another form of genetic surveillance? They steel our seed starter's microorganism DNA, and then patent that information? Sounds scary!
@@herrgerd1684 The thing with publications is that they are published by professors. Not under the name Puratos. If you look for the names, Marco Gobbetti, Fabio Minervi, Carlo Rizelli, Rob Dunn, Anne Madden, Bernard Onno to name some you will find their publications linked to research we are involved in. To refer to Barry Chambers comment. The Nagoya Protocol is something we take very serious. www.cbd.int/abs/ Have a look at it and you might reconsider your opinion. I believe that when it comes to share knowledge this live session shows exactly what we are doing. I am sharing for "free" my time with many bloggers, influencers and press to spread more knowledge about sourdough and how to make better breads. I'm not here to convince you. Neither persuade you to buy our products... I'm just replying to refute some incorrect assumptions. But hey, let's agree to disagree...
@@KarlDeSmedt Hey, didn't get a notification about your comment, sorry for replying late!!! I'll have a look at that, thank you for showing me where to look exactly and especially for the names. Zo be honest, the sourdough library website is of no help to find that information. Or I'm too dumb to search 😉 My comments above were not against you, Hendrik or anyone as a person. I just can't see the big picture without looking at the company which makes possible the whole thing... Which in this case is specialised in making special enzymes which make doughs rise quicker, better, stronger and enhance so many things so that special skills are not needed anymore when handling dough... You may of course disagree with me here, but imo this exactly what makes bread(quality) not better but worse. Especially if rise and fermenting times are pushed to their lower limits.
