The paper wasn't taken down but was temporarily restricted. It is now back up. palaeo-electronica.org/content/2023/3821-the-osteology-of-irritator Plenty of terminally online folks, mostly on twitter, were attacking Olof Moleman about the repatriation of the fossils. This is despite Olof having no power or authority over where the fossil is or will be. I do not condone any of this, and neither should you. Dr. Ghilardi was referring to this when she said people shouldn't be throwing personal attacks at people who are not at fault.
Hello! I really like your videos, and I wish I could talk to you in person about so many things you mention, because you're obviously well educated and eloquent, and you also have strong and definite opinions, which is something that I like. That being said, about the colonizer/fossils being removed issue: First of all, Brasil is just as much a country founded by colonialism as is the US. They were the last country to eliminate slavery, and only did so under tremendous pressure from England and the US. Brasil has, and alas continues to, exterminate its indigenous peoples, just as the US exterminated its indigenous peoples. Granted Brasil, like all poor countries globally, experiences unequal and exploitative trade. And Brasil suffered from US meddling through time. And "colonizing a colonizer" might well be "two wrongs that don't make a right". But does Brasil have the moral right (moral, not legal, obviously they have the legal right since laws were undeniably broken) to accuse anyone of colonialism, when they themselves colonize?
@@rootbeer4888 Everything is "woke" to you clowns now that you guys found this word you have been saying it non stop. Its an easy excuse to shut down conversations.
Even though it’s probably scientifically inaccurate to portray Irritator with snake-like lower jaws, it is still so cool. I saw some recent fantasy paleoart depicting other theropods with this jaw configuration and I just couldn’t get enough of it
Historic and scientific finds like fossils should always reside in their country of origin unless it’s a case where all parties are satisfied. Why can’t Mongolia or Brazil have their own museums full of bones, thank you for being so understanding and supportive of the situation
At this point, they actually do! So people complaining just have no empathy or understanding of what it is like to have all your home's fossils taken away.
I don't know the full complexity of the situation and I'm also a little idealistic as I want to see scientific bodies of the world working together. But, I would say it's more a matter for governments to decide as some other countries may have better developed scientific facilities to study the bones.
the first set found in the country should be the country's own but any subsequent fossils should be allowed to be traded to other institutions including ones that are not located inside the country of origin.
Would you say the same in the case of a war ridden country like Iraq, where the *locals* are digging up archeological artifacts and sell them to foreigners to make a living? I have no idea through which hands these bones went; but I am fairly sure that there were owners in between, which were interested in money more than patriotism. Making laws isn't enough, the people should be able to live a comfortable life, so that they will not be tempted to sell parts of their heritage to rich countries.
Not to be mean but isn't Brazil kind of corrupt in places? I would prefer these bones to be known instead of kept away from the public and kept in some rich asshole's basement.
Irritator then: *Normal* Irritator: *Fringehead Jaws!* Bonus Irritator: "Guess you could say I have a 'splitting' mouthache!" Spinosaur Species: *Loud groans*
@@KaiserStormTracking Irritator: Me?! You're the one who keeps changing from one thing to another in every which way! And didn't you eat him in that Jurassic Park movie?
As a brazilian myself, I'll point out to the burning of the national museum - a terribly damaging fire caused by criminal neglet. Having important, historical fossils returned to brazil just means it'll be shoved in a damp box and ignored for a few decades/centuries, until it's finally destroyed by sheer carelessness.
@@EDGEscience While it *is* generalizing, it's not with no basis. A cursory search on google will show repeated occurences of outrageous lack of care in taking care of important cultural, historic and scientific artifacts in Brazil, just this year countless priceless artifacts were severely damaged or destroyed in the attempted coup on the Planalto palace. Add to that, the budgets given to museums in libraries is barely enough to allow for maintenance, nevermind research, and it starts painting a very worrysome picture. That isn't just mine opinion, either (even though I *have* worked with museums in the past). There is debate in the national scientific community over the devolution of those fossils, because even though they were taken by colonialist europeans in dodgy circumnstances, they are much safer and better studied over in Germany than they would ever be here.
@@EDGEscience I invite you to come to Brazil then, 1 week in São Paulo and 1 week in Rio de Janeiro going in the public museums, you will see that it's not generalizing.
deixa de ser vira lata mano. fóssil do spinosaurus foi perdido numa bomba por causa disso vc vai tirar dos museus pq pode explodir? se o fóssil é brasileiro ele tem que ta no brasil. estudiosos de outros países que entrem com pedido pra fazer pesquisas em conjunto com os daqui. os brasileiros tem que ter a oportunidade de estudar essas coisas tbm.
As a Brazilian researcher, I am sure that the fossils would be very well kept here in Brazil. This idea that our museums are scrapped to the point where we don't take care of our material is just a shallow argument. We do have some financial difficulties, but we strive to ensure that this does not damage the materials and that our research is of inferior quality. Furthermore, the more material we have to study, the more research will be done and consequently the more investments we will have in these areas, promoting our scientific development and the region where the fossils were collected.
Irritator and Saurophaganax have always been my favorite theropod dinosaurs, this study has only made it solidified as my favorite. (Until there is a paper that comes out that says Saurophaganax is even larger than previously though.) Irritator should be in Brazil, I always assumed it was in Brazil since it is a Brazilian animal. Though I guess I assumed wrong. But still it should be returned to Brazil since the Fossil was stolen from Brazil and imported to Germany. This is a different tangent but speaking as someone from Appalachia I feel as though places outside of Laramidia, Mongolia, and Argentina should be represented in paleo media. For instance instead of another documentary featuring Argentinasaurus, how about showing off Amazonsaurus, or Siamosaurus instead of Spinosaurus again. In fact Siam has such a large amount of fossils that I am genuinely surprised it hasn’t shown up in a paleo documentary yet.
*Update: Irritator challengeri study temporarily removed due to questionable ethics* It would have been an interesting development here and makes you wonder if this jaw flexibility would apply to other Spinosaurids like Baryonyx, Suchomimus or the famous Spinosaurus Aegyptiacus. The fish Spinosaurus preyed on were over 20ft+ weighing over a tonne and had armored scales. Such prey would require something strong to pierce and slash which would raise more questions.
South american here. Making this about politics is the most stupid things. If they were real scientists they'd be "Where can we access the best resources and technology to investigate this? In JAPAN? Ok, let's all go to Japan and do it! It doesn't matter where the fossil came from, from where we are and the laws at all, let's do science!"
Brazilian here, you really think that's plausible? bruh scientist fight for their living here and you expect then to go to another country to do a research that they could do ON THEIR OWN COUNTRY because the fossil CAME FROM THERE??? imagina ser vira-lata de gringo assim
also there's no science without politics specially when it's about how colonizers have destroyed and are still destroying the economy of periferic countries and affecting directly the science of research on then, it's because of imperialism that our science is underfunded
@@liathedigger Why do you think that all the best of the south american researchers are working in other countries? Also, if you are a physicist and want to work in the Large Hadron Collider, you will do all you can to be able to go there and work there, you apply, you get loans from friends, banks, the university, whatever, and you go. I studied physics, all my university friends now live in Europe.... and that's fine because if they stay in their own failure of a country crying to the government for funds, they'd have wasted their careers. The other option is doing politics, which is a scam.
To honest, I'm not sure I fully agree with Aline Ghilardi's tone in the end of their declaration. I agree that taking something against the will of the owning party and then demanding they be polite about protesting it is wrong on many levels. The country the artifact originated from should have a say, for sure. However, I do not agree with the argument that if you don't align with their perspectives and goals, then you're automatically against them or on the "bad side". That's an extremely manipulative and oversimplified way of thinking. Then to continue to describe people who may not fully align with your reasoning various negative or presumptive things is fairly judgemental. Someone not agreeing with something someone else does or thinks doesnt necessarily make them privileged, ignorant, or otherwise the "bad guy" in this situation. There may be many reasons why, since most people tend to have reasons for feeling certain ways. Hell, from someone hearing about this from the study disclaimer's point of view, it may sound as if the transport and sale of this speciment was before the ban on export happened, and that would have a significant weight on an opinion. I'm not personally familiar with this incident/story, so I can't really say either way with any depth. This is just the thought process I have watching this video. In my own personal opinion, I feel we should find a middle ground for allowing the world the study specimens found in certain countries while still allowing the sole ownership to be that country of origin*. A way that some countries can't essentially "hoard" what is found and prevent the sharing of discoveries, but still maintain ownership of heritage and the condition of rhe specimen, even if that means allowing vetted scientific people to come in from other countries to study the specimen under supervision. I think it would be more agreeable to allow the exportation or borrowing of certain specimens as well, but I can understand why someone would be hesistant on that front. As much as I would personally love to have a private collection of dinosaur stuff, I do feel like some countries are way too lenient on the allowance of some things for private collections. I almost feel a stipulation for owning such things would be that they'd have to be allowed to be studied by qualified individuals and not just locked away somewhere where no one else will see it. That includes museums and other more public places that have piles of specimens laying around waiting for qualified descriptions and categorizing, just to add.* This is all so complex. There really is no "right", fix-all answer, and that was kind of my point. Everyone sees things a little differently, and I'd figure most perspectives aren't purposely incidious in intent regarding this, even if they differ from peoples' views like Ghilardi. No hate or anything, this is just thinking "out loud", essentially. *Edit: fixed a typo and added a comment. **edit again: To add, I think the thing that is throwing some people off is the use of the word "heritage". That word, in this context, doesn't necessarily mean the history of human development and culture alone. It means anything that happened in the natural history of that region. So, saying that these fossils are Brazil's heritage isn't incorrect. I saw a few people arguing that point and noticed it was a common theme. Just throwing that out there. It can still be your heritage and not part of your own species. It is part of your origin place's natural history, so it CAN expand outwards to other scopes of history as well, in this regard. In this case, it would likely be logged under "geological heritage", though I'm not a qualified scientist to say for sure.
Is it really that complex though??? To me the simplest solution is to simply let the country of origin for the fossil have the sole ownership and right over that fossil and they should have the right to research and study it first, then they can simply loan it out to the scientific institutions of other countries for their own studies or they can collaborate together on researching the specimen. That seems very simple and would solve everybody's issues, no? I feel like just shrugging your shoulders and saying "This is complicated" is pointless and won't get you to any sort of real solution. That's just my perspective on the matter.
@Dell12 16 Nobody shrugged their shoulders and said that, though. It's very apparent you either didn't read or didn't comprehend anything I'd written. And yes, it is complicated. We already have rules like you describe in place, right? How is that going for those countries so far? They have severe issues with black market artifacts being spread around, and then we run into this very issue right now. I'm not saying that is the country's fault, of course it falls on the people doing illegal deeds. However, you can't deny that the laws in place are* creating a vacuum for which this kind of thing can come in and run rampant. There will always be some kind of issue going on, no matter the outcome. Negating as much damage as possible and making the "right" choice toward that conclusion is what makes this complicated. When countries are allowed to hoard potential knowledge, it becomes an issue. I already said I agreed that the country of origin should have the rights to the fossil, as have many, including EDGE: nobody is saying otherwise in this comment, or even the video. However, it becomes an issue when those countries won't allow other countries to study the artifacts in any form. Other countries do this with other kinds of historic evidence already. That's the issue. Nobody is denying that the artifact shouldn't be with its origin country. The complex part is how much should ethically be allowed to other countries as a means to study and progress science, versus how much power should the origin country have to halt that progress in the name of heritage or ownership. There IS a point where it* becomes less about preserving heritage and more about hoarding a rare and valuable commodity for study, simply because you can or because you want to profit from it somehow. That's another issue we may have to deal with in this debate and again, why it's complex. If you think that people saying "it's complex" is being lazy or not being proactive, that seems like a personal problem when the context suggests otherwise. There is a lot of potential fallout to consider in these* kinds of situations, both ethically and physically. When there are various branches upon branches of outcome to several base actions, that is "complexity" in a nutshell. Edit: fixed typo
Good points, her stance of "you are with me or against me" is horrible, and the problem of fossil ownership is quite problematic, because Brazilian museums are not well maintened, we lost the remanins of oxalaia in the museum fire, and the database was kept local not online, just imagine if we get them back and then let them get destroyed by accident in the museum, i think we should not hoard the fossil just for the country of origin, but things should have made in a legal way, not selling/buying on abalck marketing that damages fossils.
Very happy to hear. Dave Martell talked about as infamous and a notorious bad actor. It took way too long for his repeated provocations to actually start sullying his reputation.
@@flaminggodofthunder9212He‘s notorious for flouting the rules of fossil collection in other countries. In addition, he’s expressed his displeasure about said rules through distasteful comments.
i drew a spinosaurus with a pelican mouth pouch on a whim on the paper tablecloth in an indian restaurant like literally a week before this stuff about irritator started appearing on my feed. i didn't know nearly enough about anatomy to know if it was actually possible and it was just something i thought would be funny/scary (pelicans are terrifying they seem so soulless) so imagine my surprise at seeing this stuff so shortly afterwards
I think the issue of repatriation should really only be controversial if there is a legitimate risk of the repatriated specimens being destroyed or mishandled. Of course then the question arises that who gets to decide when another country is “ready” to have its fossils repatriated isn’t one with an easy or agreeable answer. However, I think a legitimate case could be made for the prioritization of the preservation of knowledge over the cultural sovereignty of a plundered nation’s fossils. Of course, Brazil is a stable country with a well developed paleontology infrastructure, so at least with regard to Brazil specifically, thats a moot question and the stolen specimens should be returned immediately and at no cost to Brazil or their scientific institutions.
This channel: "It had a very strange ability to swallow huge things in one gulp." My inner 12-year old: "So does your mom!" My current 58-year old: "That was uncalled for! Still, good one."
I say they should stop fossil auctions, if you're not going to use the fossil for science then you should not be allowed to own it, or else it will make it harder to figure out key factors in evolution, science is above rich people's expensive fossil decorations. Science is important and rich people's decorations are nugatory for society. Rich people are not as important as you think.
I agree fully, fossils should be owned by their countries of origin and loaned out to foreign scientific institutions for when other scientists want to study them or they can collaborate together on research, fossils shouldn't be privately owned at all. If you want to own a fossil you can just get a recreation there's no reason for why you would need a real fossil if it's just going to sit in your house doing nothing imo.
This. I agree. If they're going to allow private collections of such valuable historical items, there should laws in place to require allowance to vetted scientific personnel for study, at the very least.
@Dell12 16 Lol this is basically what I'd said in part of my comment and you claimed I was shrugging my shoulders and saying "it's complex". I don't usually nitpick to this degree, but really? Now I know you didn't even bother reading my comment before replying.
I am so confused by that colonisation talk. Was that fosil bought before or after the ban on exporting fosils went into action? The paper says it was bought before, the Brazilians that it was illigal. Don't know what to make out of it.
This was also a little confusing from the way it was portrayed. I was saying that someone coming in from an outside point-of-view and seeing that would assume it was done legally and not understand the upset. It seems, given the other context given, that it wasn't done in the strictest terms of legality in exportation, but that the disclaimer was more of an explanation of how it kind of ended up in their lap. I do think that every country is entitled to their heritage, though. I know it's not up to the scientists, so I sympathize with the backlash they're experiencing as well. It's a tough situation all around.
The problem is that the laws that define the material(s) as being illegally taken did not exist when said material was discovered/sold. However, the method of discovery is another story all together. Take for example the commercial mining of ancient Amber. Black markets will always exist because money is more valuable than history, nature, or culture. If Germany is open to letting those interested examine the fossils and make them available for science, then why give them to Brazil? There’s a good chance Brazil just wants to profit from the bones and keep them locked away or worse, charging for the opportunity to examine the properties that should belong to all mankind in the first place. No matter where they died millions of years ago.
There are multiple ways. Charging to view based on a “highest bidder” selection. Museum admission, or “rental” of materials. If there’s a way to profit, humans can find it. The point is, these items existed before borders. So to say that it is found there means it’s automatically property of the “state” where it was found is wrong. Relic’s such as fossils should belong to mankind. Not any particular country…
@@Tungdil_01 Hey I'm with you for retuning the fossils. I wish America never sold sue, but I don't understand why the fossils are considered cultural heritage artifacts.
@@wileygarren5980 To answer that I'll give a jurisdiction and a personal side. If you buy a farm in Brazil and let's say, you find oil, that oil doesn't belong to you but to the State. The reason is that in Brazil the concept of "private property" is not as strong as some might think. The reason is historical and has to do with the formation of this specific society. Fossils are an important aspect of science as well as education. Dr. Ghilardi who is mentioned at the end of the video is a researcher but also an educator, and I've seen some videos of her teaching the kids of that region about science, which arguably can have a very deep influence on their perception of the world, ultimately improving the education. Using financial power, as in the case of Irritator, to steal fossils or any other natural heritage is a way to hinder the development of science in the country, taking away from the local scientists, as well as removing a powerful tool of education. The American palaeontologist Stephen Jay Gould from Harvard mentioned once that when he was a kid and went to a museum, that amazed him to the point he decided to be a scientist. Some people might say: but who cares about the Brazilian kids in the middle of nowhere? Well, we Brazilians do care, and we must fight for our rights, defying anyone who is impeding us, right?
We have very capacitated paleontologists, of course we, Brazilians can investigate our fossils. The problem is not only researchers studying illegally obtained fossils, but the commercialization of fossils at all, they should have value only for scientist, so many well preserved fossils are hidden in private collections far away from any researcher, only for the rich guys pise and speculate
Honestly I get where Brazilians are coming from but Honestly, I'm here for the science and will stay away from the politics as a whole, if that makes me some privileged prick, in your eyes, so be it.
@@EDGEscience Context is important, but nowhere near as much as freedom of information. Brazil may think they own the fosil but to censor and remove a study because you "might" offend a state is a far more dangerous predescent to se for publications.
Spinosaurs would be the ones with weirdo jaws, and ofc irritator brings political discourse. This is the spinosaur curse in action. but yeah give irritator back to Brazil
A giant pelican that crawled on its belly because its hind legs were too small to support its weight, and spent most of its time swimming like a crocodile.
Oh hey, a dinosaur I never knew existed has been discovered a little while ago, let’s see how it loo- *shin godzilla music kicks in* wait a minute…that..jaw… *memories* holy shi-
In my opinion, globally there should be a law about fossil description rights and shifting of rights to the institution who has the technology and capacity to describe it. Eg.: If they find quite a lot of fossils in a specific country and none of the native institutes describe them within x years, then the fossils will be taken to another country for description and analysis. Or if said country doesnt have the proper technology to continue proper analysis, then they need to be taken to the closest country that possess that technology. After description and analysis is done, the specimens are to return to their home country. Soooo many fossils are waiting in museum storage and drawers for description but everyone hogs them for themselves although they dont have the capacity to describe them, so they are left unknown and eventually forgotten. Should we not work together instead of fight each other? Who cares what country describes them as long as they are described. It will only matter where they were found anyway.
The only reason there are so many fossils left in storage is because science in general is heavily underfunded. If every museum could afford to hire hundreds of people to prepare things, there would be a lot more room and a lot less fossils lying around. On top of that, if more institutions got more and better funding, they could grow their space so they could hold more fossils.
@@EDGEscience i know its hard to understand as someone not from south america, but i can tell you that its in better hands right now. If it was in Brazil it would be sitting in a shelf gathering dust. And no, you cant “help them improve their resources” because the corrupted goverment will take all the money, as they already do
Pleasantly surprised by your approach to the ‘controversy’, your open-mindedness and willingness to engage with others’ perspectives was great to see and is a real good quality to have. It’s very easy for people to have a completely knee jerk negative reaction to the point the final statement made, when a little honest engagement and reflection would lead one to realise its a completely legit argument.
Well I guess I am a modern geologist promoting the rights of those countries from whom geologic materials have been stolen, and the return of those materials to the originating nation as quickly as possible. However 1) I do not see where the work done by those who unknowingly came into possession of these fossil materials should be withdrawn from publication. Of course it would be preferential for the material to be returned as soon as possible but this does not mean the destruction of academic studies. 2)It would also seem highly appropriate for the original country to allow and indeed encourage the preparation of in depth survey of this material using such tools as photographic, microscopic, CT, Xray and isotope studies of these materials to be published. The original country of ownership not allowing scientists in other nations to study the data is inappropriate. It would be a poor example of scientific cooperation and would place the honorable scientists who work to return these materials in the position of punishing their own research attempts.
Great points! It's a slippery slope for us all to fall back into old times and have dino-peen comparing contests again, which is likely what started a lot of this kind of fossil-swapping. I feel for the historical entities who try to get these specimens in the most ethical way possible, but money is the biggest obstacle due to the private auctions and other things. I just wish we could have some kind of global repository of artifacts where the countries compile their stuff, and others can "check them out", like a library or come over to the country for study, and it could all go smoothly lol. Wishful thinking, I guess. It'd be like the country of origin is the sole custodian, responsible for maintaining the pieces, and can allow suitable people or entities to study them.
I'm sorry but the front-facing drawing of Irritator at 15:34 really stole the show from that part of the controversy. It reminds me of the front-facing memes of Phineas and Ferb or the Simpsons.
as a Brazilian who studied law, all I can say is "tempus regit actum". if it was legal back then, it was legal. if all parties want to return it, it should be returned.
It may sound silly because it's a dinosaur, but it is something that literally got dug out of the Brazilian land, so I understand them being upset that the actual fossil isn't in one of their museums instead of across the world.
Huge numbers of fossils in museums in Europe and North America come from other continents; the number of guilty parties is legion. I sincerely hope the paleontology community can find a way to deal with the colonialist past of their field while also allowing work to continue for *all* parties to learn more. Guaranteeing access to fossils in countries where they are found -- especially samples still in situ -- and an abandonment of the whole, "ha ha, we have more fossils in our collection than you, so we're better, ha ha" attitude of earlier times would go a long way to proving humanity is on the verge of actually growing up.
Fossils should all be where they will do the most good/where the best equipment for the study is, no matter where they originated from, period. Not to say they shouldn’t be perfectly happily traded and lent from place to place for different studies, but this is for the sake of science, not some silly concept of ownership.
Thanks for supporting its repatriation! It's not about "Brazilian fossils for Brazilian researchers", as some people have wrongly interpreted it :(, it's about a more ethical science that respects the laws and sovereignty of other countries, that respects local populations and that seeks to work more collaboratively, and more equitably.
