I'm old enough to remember 440c being a premium steel when I was a kid. It is a solid performer with good corrosion resistance as long as it gets a good heat treat. My attitude toward blade steel has changed over the years. It used to be a top priority anytime I bought a new knife. Then it dawned on me that for a guy with an extensive knife collection, who enjoys sharpening, perhaps absolute edge retention needn't be a priority? Besides, knives that are easy to sharpen are more fun to sharpen and encourage me to experiment with the profile and angles to find what is best suited for that knife. You can do that with Rex 121 or Maximet but it would hurt wrist and break your spirit
I think there is little point in going too into steel composite, unless you are a salt water diver/fisherman or something, the worst steel available now is insane compared to the poor consistency and purity of the average steel a few hundred years ago, and we've been killing people very efficiently for thousands of years with sharp stuff, hell they used to make blades from copper and bronze, 440c is like fucking adamantium compared to metal throughout history!
My single favorite EDC is a Ganzo with 440C. I get it razor sharp and keep it that way with regular stropping. The ultra performance steels are largely a trick from marketing to pry money out of your pocket.
I love this video it's probably going to blow a few Minds well done I've always had personal Theory on 440 with cheap Chinese made knives originally when it was developed the 440 series entirely was considered high-end Steel I've always wondered if when they marked it 440 it's sales tactic and a lie and it's actually some crazy pot metal they had access to I'm pretty sure most flea market blades marked 440 aren't even actually 440 a b or c
Correct brother, most of the Surgical stainless stuff is in the realm of 420j2/3cr13mov which is the lower carbon cousin(0.30) of 420hc(0.45) haha or even worse aka the Pakistan special. also cryogenic tempering goes a long way on stainless steel. That was Paul boss's legacy with buck and 420hc. Which has become the standard for stainless heat treating in the industry. The reputation of this steel, 440, is so tarnished that it is not worth making knives out of due to people writing it off as crap. Which is a shame.
Got two fillet knives from Knives of Alaska that have 440C steel with a rockwell hardness of 57-60. Very well made knives & sharp. Much better then those carbon steel bubba blades I bought.
440C is still one of the best KNIFE steels made. The problem with steel is that very, very few, scientists least of all, understand that after a certain point such things as hardness, toughness, abrasion resistance, etc., become negatives on a working knife. The people who need high end crucible steels are those who use a knife all day, every day at some form of work, and who hand that knife in to have it sharpened. People out in the real world, on the farm, in the wilderness, etc, not only don't need such steel, it's worthless because it's ore trouble than you have time to deal with. All steel gets dull. It simply does. What seldom gets taken into the equation is what the average working stiff, farmer, or wilderness person does when that steel finally does get dull.
I have a few 440C blades made in Solingen, Germany. Even a 1.4110. And they OUTPERFORM some of my more modern steels such as 154CM, VG10 and even S30V to some extent. I can recommend 440C from a decent company. Great performance.
@@dimmacommunication Böker and PUMA are some of the best imo. I hear the stuff coming out of Maniago, Italy is really good too. Be careful with the stuff the companies have made in China. Very often pretty bad steel treatment.
440A, B, Aus-8, 1075 , 420 I think these kind of steels are for people who want a cool looking knife just because they want one. I'd actually never buy a knife in 440c over $50,-. I even have a hard time liking with 1095 haha. Life is hard as a edge retention fetishist... I have recently heard stories of someone heat treading the 440a to 61HRC (just for cutting) and he told me the edge retention was great. I don't think I can put myself into spending money on 440A. In the low price range I'd much rather go for a trusted 12c27 knife knowing it'll probably be good. Thanks for the geek-out brother! I always appreciate them!
James, Gah! man! you're everywhere! Stop being a 440c cultist. 440c is a decent steel. It isn't special or god like. It's a normal, every day, stainless steel. DBK knows more about knives than you do. Just because a knife costs 5k doesn't mean it's worth the mud off my boots. 440c is not the best steel in the world and in reality 1085 hardens better than it does and holds a better edge. Yes, 440c can be good, but it's nothing special...
You are of course absolutely right. One of the reasons 440C is so expensive is it is hard to heat treat properly, and very hard to grind once it is heat treated right. Anyone who thinks good 440C is second rate is about as clueless as they come. 440C is still the industry benchmark for ball bearing shape stability, although how that translate to edge holding is not a hard science: Nothing with knives is, and people have the greatest trouble wrapping their heads around this: Easier to just read steel composition charts...
440c is not expensive! Who keeps passing this bs around? It's on the mid range price of all steels. -You can go to walmart and buy a 440c knife for $20.- I take that back. I just remembered that most people stopped using 440c ages ago because they found better steels for cheaper. Although as a bladesmith 440c has excellent abrasion resistance once fully hardened.
It is not "people" that stopped using 440C, it is manufacturers that did, spreading nonsense about steels, in particular this godawful junk called "Crucible Particle Metallurgy". All the CPMs steels I have tried (3 different types in 4 brands) were exactly like low end Chinese junk steels, the micro-apex not staying straight in any material, especially while chopping. As for 440 not being expensive, "expensive" is a relative term. It is hard to work with. How well it works also depends on where you get it, to what standard, and how carefully it is heat treated. In practice 440 is a near meaningless cornucopia term that has a huge range of performance. Randall is still using 440B, and by their yardstick 440B is NOT cheap stuff... And they do know what they are doing by sticking with it: They couldn't care less about nostalgia, as they tried ATS 34 on some smaller knives in the past.
Buck knives, Paul Bos heat treatment, nuf said. Rough Ryder knives 440A not bad. Chinese been making knives for thousands of years I think they got it down. 30 years ago I bought a Chinese butcher knife, still use it, sharp as a razor only maintained with a steel, original edge still visible at handle.
Cool video, great information. I have a blade that is 440C and it sharpens easily to a hair popping edge and holds its edge fairly well. I have nothing to complain about with 440C. I've read that 440A and B aren't so great.
I'm glad you made this. Had been wanting to see geekouts on more mundane steels, to get some perspective. Would you consider doing one on the 10**-series steels? Or maybe some tool steels like O1, A2 or D2?
PS: Nice thing is that 440-C is easy enough to Field Sharpen (2000 wet/dry Sand paper, oiled with a few drops of Tea-Tree oil, wrapped around a square wee block of wood does wonders. Cudeman’s’ MT-5’s blade in N-695 holds 15 Degrees/Side… no chipping & no rolling… Nice thing is it is Economical… Of course, 440-C is not the favourite for toughness in a long (over 7”) chopper… but Stainless Choppers are likely a contradiction in terms.
I have 440 steel knive for a long time, I randomly buy it because i like the look the price as I remember is not expensive but I dont remember it was very cheap. I dont have solid knowledge about steel type and dont care either. Early 2020 I start to collecting knives and read about it. I just realize that old knive still look like new and don't rust with zero maintenance...., I started to give it attention... ..testing it stabbing hard woods etc over and over and the tip never bend, and still no rust until now.... I think 404 will do the job for same as the expensive steel.
I have a 440 blade that’s just marked 440 stainless I’m sure it’s made in China is there anyway to tell if it’s A B or C and also is there anyway to tell how well it was hey treated?Im more curious about the heat treating since that’s probably as you’re saying the biggest indication if the 440 is going to hold up to good use.
Bd1n will always be my hope for redemption for 440c in particular. The most premium 440c in my collection is my spyderco cat. Bd1 replaced it a few years back and now bd1n is down the pipeline. The spec sheets say bd1 is equivalent to 440c. If that's true than my conclusions on 440c ever being sub-par are false. The bd1 on my alcyone stood toe to toe with my para 3 in m4 and won me over. Toss some nitrogen in the mix and you have a different kind of animal with those nitrides. Cold steel is now using aus10 another 440c equivalent with successful results from what I have read. I do my best trying to put a working edge on crappy 440 steel/ Pakistan powerhouses for friends and Co workers from time to time. I've never seen geometries so obtuse in my life, don't think any steel would cut at the edge angles I measured them at. Good heat treat allows better cutting geometries in my experience. Since it's a knife that should be the goal, cutting performance. If a knife doesn't cut the way I need it to, then to the Stones we go.
I got an MTech USA Xtreme MX8054 that is 440C stainless and the heat treat seems to be fantastic. It seems to hold an edge for a ridiculous amount of time. It holds an edge longer than many of my 1095 knives.
Nikolai Bolinski That's a really good knxife you have there. I personally think 440C is a great steel but it CANT be air heat treated as the oxygen will crystallize on the outer grain. Thats why home makers just cant use it. Get the heat treat right and its killer.
Scottish Outdoors Yeah. I absolutely love it. The heat treat on it has never given me any issues. I actually have 2 of them. One for actually working with and the other for looks and just generally screwing around when im bored. LOL.
My experience is that 440A is a much better steel that it's reputation would suggest. It's the most widely used knife steel in the world, and I've seen near miracles performed with it. I don't, however, thing heat treat is a big factor with 440A, as long as you're dealing with reputable knife companies. . Heat treat is pretty much standardized by now. It isn't difficult to do, and if you want to watch it all done to perfection, go to China. And if you want to see it screwed up completely, also go to China, or India, or Pakistan, and a few other countries. I do think comparing the carbon content or 1095 and 440 steel is like comparing apples to submarines. It doesn't matter how much carbon a 440 steel has, and it often is NOT as much as the maker claims, it will never have the attributes and characteristics of 1095, so why make the comparison? There are massive number of steel snobs on RU-vid. These snobs, in my experience, fall into three main groups. 1. Those who really don't know much at all about steel, but read a data sheet, maybe listen to a couple of videos, and think they know more than they do. 2. Those who are trying to sell you a very expensive knife made from the latest crucible steel that's guaranteed to slice granite like butter. 3. Those who just bought the granite slicing knife, and who don't want to admit it really won't slice granite very well at all. In fact, it will barely slice butter without chipping. I also know that much of the bad reputation 440A has comes from mistaken identity. Everything gets labeled "440", whether it's 3cr13, or some junk steel that is nothing more than melted scrap. A good deal of knives coming in from Indiana, Pakistan, sometimes China, and elsewhere, not only isn't blade steel, it isn't any kind of real steel. I've seen tons of random stainless steel from a junkyard melted together, turned into knives, and stamped "440 stainless".. God only knows what kind of hweat treat this steel gets, if any at all.
Ya have to really know what you're doing in order to properly heat treat 440c. Open air forges & furnaces will RUIN 440c. During the heat treat process, 440c cannot be exposed to atmosphere at all. So many people making knives nowadays, and far too few of them know how to heat treat 440c......then they turn around and "blame the steel" for their own mistakes. If done correctly, 440c is hard to beat. Also the most stain/rust resistant of them all.
Interestingly I have a few knives of 440A and a Chinese folder from the flea market, a darkops copy. I never had any problems with the folder, used it since 2011 and resharpened it several times, paint came off, screws fell out, put them back, abused it in the kitchen and outside. Still going strong, and the blade steel is impeccable. So I think lot of BS is generated by SALESMEN, who have to sell the more expensive stuff which is not as good as they say, but double the cost, triple the cost. I do have a range of Extrema Ratio knives also, the steel is super (N690). But then I also realized that sharpening the Chinese folder is fun and the steel is more than good enough for edc over the years!!!! So Yes, heat treat is important, and second, forget the stupid youtube videos where people abuse their knives. Oh and don't forget the Spine Whack stupidity. Normal people do not have to worry of the blade closing in on them. Do you abuse the Victorinox knives as well? No, yet they have no locking mechanism, yet they have cheap blade steel, yet they are in a class themselves and never heard that ah, this is a baaadddd knife because it has shit steel. But you hear that wow, it has so much utility capability, everybody should have one.... So ranting on steel is BS unless you really want a special steel. Otherwise a good knife looks good, feels good, cuts good. So if you like it, buy it!
420a vs 440c ? Toughness and corrosion resistance ? use by the average user ( for example as a gift for a friend ) is 440c better for kitchen use ? Must not corrode
From what I experienced from an Oryx Raider II, 10" blade, a high quality-seeming Buckmaster "version", stamped "440", the answer is a resounding "NO!": Worse 440 I have ever seen... But anything from Japan stamped "Seki" in AUs-8 is probably good. Taiwan is also "NO" in my book, even with Aus-8. But Japanese Aus-6 is great! Especially Al Mar....
People focus too much on steel and not sharpening systems. Buy a $20 pocket knife and $200 in waterstones or an angle guide system. Your knives will be way sharper than a $250 pocket knife that isn’t maintained.
I have a knife that's titanium bonded 440 still, so I reckon in my head that means it's titanium plated in a way it also has a black oxide finish on most of it, I only use it for game and food preparation and it's lasted me about 6 years and it stays razor blade sharp now if you go being stupid with it yeah it's not the best but I've never had an issue with this blade, anyway my question is is I'm just trying to find more information on titanium bonded 440 still and what it actually is and how it performs, if anyone knows please leave a comment and I appreciate it.
reminds me a bit of how al mar gets AUS8 to super steel levels of performance by doing great grind and heat treat on the eagle/hawk/falcon series. Premium price though!
+CedricAda Gear and Outdoors haha god those knives are beautiful. I love it when I run into someone that's carrying one. Especially the ultralights with the Micarta. Hate to admit it but I just can't justify the price just because of the aus 8 haha. What a snob lol
look up the spec sheet. No, not without an annealing operation, needs to not be too thin either, needs atmosphere control, needs temp control. Cheaper to start with another piece of steel
BINGO: & NOT ALL 440-C are created equal either. CUDEMAN does an excellent “MT-5” blade using N-695 (Bohler’s refined Version of 440-C) @ 60HRC… possibly my favourite 440-C Knife maker. Most 440-C are 2 points softer, & 58HRC… 440-C has one of the highest compressive strengths in a stainless: great for Bushcraft/Camping knives.
Listen pal I don't know if u get the point cuz this video shows how tough the 440 steels are not sharp so I don't know why u mentioning that here...i mean u can literally take a piece of plastic put it on freezer and sharpen it and it will still be able to cut ur hair off ur skin so hopefully u get the point I'm tryna make
So i bought a 440 knife off of amazon, ive tried sharpening it and stroping it, but i cannot seem to match the edge on my leatherman Skelatool KBx which is shaving on contact after going through the same sharpening process. Can someone help answer what is going on that is preventing me from getting this 440 knife sharper
No one like to hear this, but its your technique. you're not holding a consistent angle you're not forming a burr or deburring properly you're crushing the apex with too much pressure when finishing the edge. You have to rule that stuff out. I have to mitigate these things everytime I sharpen. Even then, I doubt the pinnacle of well heat treated 440 stainless is found on amazon for under $100
Say Heah B B, I put it inn the similar grade as a 1075, Infact I like it better That's why I have more 420HC's of Condor's then I do their 1076's. ,, .
