But most of his words were to convince people that a heat pump is a viable alternative to a gas boiler - which they are not under normal domestic conditions in a small house.
Thanks again for the collaboration SB! Great to see it still running at 520% efficiency for the last 30 days as anyone can see by following the link. Heat geek guarentee the efficiency due to our belief in the ability of small family run businesses putting their heart and soul in to their work, with a bit of help from our training. This has resulted in an average SCOP across our installations of 4.44 to date. Here’s to the next!
@@hrvojelasic5794there’s a sensor that measure the heat produced, they use metering grade sensors, such as the ones you have on communal heat schemes so they are very accurate as they are used for billing.
@@HeatGeek You need to measure the entering/leaving water flow temperature on the HP, the mass flow of water through the HP, and the electricity input on the HP. This is the only correct way. If you do that good. First three inputs you get heating capacity q=mXcpXdt and divide that by the electricity input and you get COP.I didn't watch your video though.
I had a heat pump installed under the old gas boiler replacement scheme. The first year it was expensive but not a big problem but one room was struggling to make temp. After the original installers could not find fault I found a heat geek from the website and after a one hour visit the controls were adjusted and a blending valve turned off the system has wor,ed like a dream all winter with much smaller bills and all rooms working. I cannot speak more highly about the heat geek and skill builder videos.
Even though Roger has been critical of heat pumps in the past, it's great to see him bring in people who know about them, shows they can be good etc as long as it's done right. The scare mongering around heat pumps need to end and this level headed showcase has been great
They had about 12 people doing the instal and probably 3 or 4 constantly monitoring it to make sure it works. Do yo think the average Joe is going to get that standard of care for the price of a gas installation?
@@Steve-j7z because they corrected an existing bad install which is far more work because it's not just about fitting new stuff, it's debugging the new issues created. Plus it gets the job done faster. I'm getting quotes right now and been quoted £3, 500 on average after the tax break and they all done full surveys and install plans
@@Steve-j7z They had more people in to do the install because it sped up the installation. It's possible to get the same results with fewer people if the work can be done over a longer period of time.
I think it's been informative and really cool to see Adam & co put their money where their mouth is. They've shown that the installs can work if the installer knows their onions. Roger on the other hand has been in the building trade long enough to recognise perverse incentives when he sees them. One of Roger's main points is correct: the government is throwing money at this in a stupid way. If folk like Adam were in charge of the regulation and certification so that customers had comeback on bad installs, and we had tens of thousands of well-trained heat geeks to do the work, it would be much plainer sailing. Take my mate who bought a new build family home with 3 bedrooms -- it's a decent size but not a mansion. A few years down the line, he wants to replace the gas boiler with a heat pump because he already has solar panels and isn't satisfied with the way the boiler is set up. He gets a quote from two local firms. One wants to put a very high powered unit in and is not very willing to answer questions etc. The other guy specs something that he knows to be more reasonable, answers questions and also figures out that radiators in one of the bedrooms is mis-sized and the thermostat isn't working correctly. Second guy gets the gig and does a great job, my friend is happy with it. I sincerely doubt he'd have got the same result with the other company. If your chance of a good install is 50/50 and there's no comeback on a bad one, we're miles off doing this on a national scale.
Just take the damn vaccine, the government says it’s ok. All the top medical boffins say it’s ok. After watching the programs and news on TV I am convinced it is ok. Oh, sorry this is a heat pump conversation, so who do I blame if it all goes wrong in 3 years? The fact of the matter is without top quality insulation throughout you won’t benefit from the flaming things.
And the conclusion is that yes, heat pumps can be great, but you need a very competent installer. How many are there in the country and how do you separate them from everyone else? The argument should never have been, "Do they work?" It should always have been, "How do I guarantee finding a (local) competent installer capable to advise and fit a heatpump system well, with the necessary aftercare?" A successfully installed heatpump system can only be achieved with more competence, care and education on the part of the installer compared to a traditional boiler system (and sufficient space). That is the issue; competence and quality of service, and that costs.
@@eurovisie2010 Yes euro. I certainly did catch that point. 😂 I should have written it as " And he paid HOW much to get slightly cheaper bills". How many normal people can afford that sort of outlay???. Very informative video for sure but like electric cars its all pie in the sky.
As smart and invested as John seems to be, I am surprised that he hadn't done the ceiling insulation first. I am extremely pleased to see that the system is now working for them. Well done Heat Geeks, John and SB.
Hi - yes, a very good point. But when the EPC was done, the house came up to scratch, so I hadn't realised there was more to do. That become more apparent as the years wore on.....
@@hm21370 Thanks for the reply, John. I am really pleased that you did get it sorted and are still married 😀 Soon the bad taste from the previous installation will recede and you can bathe in both the literal and figurative "Warm Glow" not to mention reap the financial savings as well. Greetings from a heatpump user in New Zealand.
Roger. Ive been following this poor guys saga from the beginning. I love what you said about the space under the kitchen cabinets. Thinking outside the box that. 👍👍👍
I was previously rude to you SB and I'd like to apologise, I'm glad Adam reached out to you and ha shown you the positives of heat pumps and how to design them.
@@armoris66what he's saying is true tho, Gas boilers are cheap to buy & very cheap to run, instant heat & instant hot water, np need for storage tanks or oversize pipework & radiators
@@johnchoice1371 Our neighbour's oil boiler is noisy, while our heat pump is essentially silent. It's about the same physical size as an external oil boiler too.
I moved from the UK to Finland 20 years ago. I'm amazed at how our radiators never get hot like my radiators in the UK but we are always at 23°C room temp. They feel warm (but only at the top) when it's minus 20 C outside. Insulation is great. Our building is moving away from multifuel district heating to ground source heat pumps with Solar panels on the roof as of next winter. Also our powered ventilation is going to start heat recovery so the warm air will no longer be vented. It will last 20-25 years and will repay the loan taken within the first 7 years. After that we will be quids (euros) in for the next 15 years
@@_Dougaldog To be fair, in the past the sums didn't add up for heat pumps for a single house. In Finland, more people live in blocks of flats. The underground work for the heat pumps is done at the same time as the foundations are laid. Typically, Finnish apartment residents have free hot water (you get a bill if you abuse this) and free heating.
@@skasteve6528 I assure you we don't get free hot water! Everything is paid for, albeit that it is not metered at the household level. Collectively the residents pay for their water whether it is cold or heated.
what a fantastic journey from youtube beef right through to diagnosis and science behind the whole system. well done to all parties, I have learnt a lot from this
Adam explains things so well - he simplifies things, which really helps to learn about this "new" heat pump technology (the Scandinavians have been using heat pumps for decades!).
For a true comparison it would be interesting to compare apples with apples, i.e. a gas boiler system with ASHP, both with similar standards of insulation and weather compensated to really compare like for like. A few issues, they use gas for cooking so the standing charge saving is a non starter unless the cook with electricity in which case the electricity cost would rise. Without the grant and favourable electricity rates currently offered for ASHP heated houses, the payback period would be significantly longer, so making it much less realistic an option for many, particularly if you aren’t in your house for life and plan on moving. The original install was circa £16k, heat geek suggested £20k, I’m guessing that the cost of the refit was significantly more than £20k if all hours were charged and not done for promotional reasons. I’m guessing, but i imagine that the greater percentage saving comes from upgrading the insulation, windows, draught proofing and weather compensation than from the heat source itself, ASHP or new gas boiler. I admit i am biased because i don’t believe the cult of saving carbon, so that factor would never enter my thinking, albeit that i accept the government have already and will increase taxes to manipulate the carbon net zero ponzi schemes. I’m open minded to any heating system though and my son is a heating engineer, fitting ASHP on new build schemes and gas boilers
Well, to get a reasonable comparison, you can take the amount of heat this install has produced and then multiply it so that you calculate with an efficency of 90-95%. Then you would have the gas consumption. And then it's just about comparing the rates of gas vs. electricity. 95% efficiency is about the maximum you can expect from a boiler. But most installs are way below that due to bad setup and configuration.
Damm Roger, Adam and John for ruining my day because I have to watch it before doing anything else and damn them again for compelling me to waste time writing to say how good it is.
Insulation done. 9KW of PV, full house MVHR, 16 KW of battery storage. Next month the ASHP. Goodbye gas. The 12 year journey is nearly complete. Great set of videos.
I installed a heat pump on our home here in California a month ago. It produces a fresh cool air throughout the house 24/7. I am amazed at it. It's very quiet. I recommend it.
Big thanks to John for letting us in on this saga. It's a great example of the benefits of this type of heating system, but also how it can go wrong, and hopefully will help people to make the right choices for their own situations.
and he lives in old terrace house with solid walls and hence minimal insulation. It highlights that the problem is the rogue installers and not the equipment. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kkNx2oSO-S4.html
Skeptical about SCOP of estim 4.5 from 19'40" onwards because the chart records that flow to DHW is only 50.8°C. Four problems here: 1. The hot water cylinder setpoint is probably 43° +/- 4°C. Oops! There's no Legionella cycle of 60°C for an hour a day. John & sensible, gas-loving wife are unwittingly in mortal danger of respiratory infection according to the corrupt HSE anyway. (Actually I'd agree with Heat Geeks about skipping Legionella heating). 2. Dhw loading will only kick in when sensor is at 39°C so John's teeth will be gnattering under the shower because he won't achieve a comfortable 38°C at the actual shower head. New mixer designs are ruined with an internal cold bypass so as to meet the ridiculous TMV regulations. Mixer manuals specify a hot supply of 10K above the safety-button temperature (yes, that one that was painstakingly adjusted by the patient and well-trained "commissioning" plumber). John's shower actually requires dhw setpoint of 52° +/-4°C and the heatpump must therefore load it with a flow temperature that rises to at least 60°C. How's your COP doing in January now? 3. British air source heat pumps suffer from our moderate & damp British Island air. You need some ice in your water & lemon? Just scrape it off your ashp evaporator. On many days this ice has to melted off REVERSING your heat pump and shoving warmth to the OUTSIDE of your home. Costs 40p/kWh maybe? Did John notice that the "defrost cycle" is not mentioned in the glossy sales brochure ?? 4. Getting 1kW of electrical energy in your home requires around 3kW fuel energy from gas, coal, or wood pellets in the power station, because of combustion, steam and transmission losses. So now your heat pump's true efficiency is only 1.5 (ie. scop of 4.5/3). Without all the home insulation measures and the Heat Geeks' help, your heat pump's true efficiency will plummet from 1.5 to below 0.9. Then you might as well have stuck with a gas boiler and produce three times less CO2 for the environment every year. Sorry XR, we really thought heat pumps would reverse Climate Boiling. What's the answer? Whatever the Government nudge or force you to do, do the opposite.
This is a brilliant series of videos. Really enjoyed the journey. Glad to see John has a functioning, efficient system and a comfortable home now. It's no doubt been a stressful and expensive few years for him and the good lady. All the best and hopefully we get another follow up video at some point.
I see loads of heat pumps when I’m out n about. Most are in the Badenoch and Strathspey area, where there is no mains gas. Think Cairngorm Mountains and Aviemore ski resort. They must be replacing oil fired boilers and LPG with a heat pump. I’ve asked a few about it, and everybody seems very happy.
I have noticed heat pumps too, on industrial buildings. But, these big ugly units might look out of place on the side of a thatched cottage in the English countryside.
For older buildings vacuum glass is great. It allows you to retrofit into the existing frames a glass with an U value of less than 1. Even better than triple glassing for Benglass for example with U=0.4W/m2K. We are doing a retrofit of a listed building in Holland right now and we do have to ask for permits but it should be approved, and we can definitely not have to be cold.
Great vid and explanations. I keep tossing between the comfort idea. I accept a steady constant temp is comfortable from the point of view of being awake and moving around the house, feel of drafts, radiance from heatsink walls etc. Where I struggle is the idea of a constant temp day and night, I value the significant drop in temperature at night, 18c is an absolute max for me to sleep and lower is much better, then the room warming in the morning naturally wakes me as an alarm. With a more consistent day to night temp this comfort goes away for me, I don't sleep as well and I don't wake up as well.
MCS standard is 21C Livingroom, 22C Bathroom & 18C the rest. The flow temperature can easily be set to step down (or up) a few degrees using programmed schedule in control panel, then step back again before getting up. Or controlled by mobile App to step up or down if needed, although the system does take a little while to react.
Even with heatgeek approved installers, I’ve had two quote for my three bed 10 year old semi you can’t be sure of a good reasonable price installation. The first estimate was £15000 and the second was £15000 to £20000 dependent on a £250 survey. The second one said we didn’t need to change the cylinder he would use an external coil. Octopus installed for £8800 all in with new cylinder and two radiators and the deposit was fully refundable if we chose not to go ahead. We did and it’s working great, what’s more it’s cheaper to run than gas. The only thing I would say is Octopus are very picky on where and how they’ll instal.
Here is my experience. The house is a 1960s 4 bed 2000square foot bungalow that was extended to its current size about 6 years ago and brought up to current (then) insulation standards. A year ago I had an 11KW Ecodan ASHP installed and a 11KW solar system installed. I retained a 4 zone programmable controller with 3 zones UFH and 1 radiators in the old part of the house which are mainly bed and bath rooms. The installation was done by a firm based 3 hours away. Comments on ASHP. - The house was quite comfortable over the winter months although during rapid cooling cold snaps we did use some additional electric heating whilst the ASHP caught up. We are on the Octopus Cosy tariff where electric is cheaper from 4am-7am and 1pm- 4pm. My main concerns are (1) it wasn't that cold this year as last, so I am thinking of more permanent additional heating in the form of fan heating. (2) There is a lot in these videos about running the heat pump continuously at constant room temperatures, I didn't do that allowing the temperatures to fall over night. (3) The installers had to come back to correct some plumbing errors where radiator zone was becoming warm when off, this was due to backflow from the UFH getting into the radiator loop and was only solved by me after two visits and after I had done some research watching RU-vid videos and taking temperature reading! (4) Service costs and getting people in to do it are proving about double or treble that of a gas boiler. I've been waiting for over 6 weeks for Mitsubishi to get back to me to arrange the annual service. There seems few if any people local to me who could do it. Ironically part of the sales pitch for ASHPs is there lower requirement for maintenance and higher reliability but what’s the point if when it does require work there's no one around that is available to do it! Comments on 11KW PV installation with 2 x 5KW batteries. - I maximised the size of this array knowing that the output would be poor when I needed it most for the ASHP. And yes your right the output in December and January comes no where near suppling the heating. The batteries help by giving me another 16KW of cheap electricity per day. The way I look at it I'm using Octopus energy as a "Seasonal battery". That is to say I sent them a lot of electricity in the summer when output is high and take a lot back in the winter when the ASHP needs it. Currently my cheap energy times are charged at 12p/kwh and my export is paid at 15p/kwh, I can't believe this will last, but even before the recent price drops the incoming cost was 17p, so a marginal cost of 2p/kwh is not bad. I have had a problem with the inverters disconnecting from the grid under certain circumstances which is still an outstanding issue with the installer who is ignoring me after they sent a man in, blamed me for changing a setting which was within the permitted range and after they changed (which the should have been able to do remotely but didn't) tried to charge me. I pointed out that the fault was present before I changed the parameter and also after they changed it back and obviously refused to pay. Conclusions - (1) Get local suppliers if possible. (2) I am concerned about service and maintenance for the ASHP especial in winter if a fault occurs. (3) the combination of PV panels and ASHP is a powerful one. Its difficult to calculate the exact savings because of price and weather variations however I can say that I have saved in the order of £3000 using this years prices against my gas and electricity consumption for the previous year. This far exceeds the amount of interest the installation cost was earning in my savings account. I think the adoption of both these technology’s together can have a significant effect on bills and emissions.
Is your heat pump running in weather compensation (or weather dependent) mode to allow it to best adjust for outdoor temperature ? " There is a lot in these videos about running the heat pump continuously at constant room temperatures, I didn't do that allowing the temperatures to fall over night." Trickling a little heat into building 24/7 means the whole structure is up to temperature (the thermal mass) and can work out better than letting house temperature drop and then trying to blast in heat to warm it up again.
Heatpumps remain the most efficient when the temperature differences are the smallest. Thus obviously you should try to avoid yo-yo and always run the heatpump.
Here in Iceland we use geothermal underfloor heating to keep the rooms at a constant 22°C. Whilst it's not a heat pump, it concurs with what you were saying about a constant background heating is much better than the Yo-Yo heating method of gas boilers
I have a gas boiler and keep a constant temperature, it’s not a problem for a gas boiler to maintain a constant temperature . People do Yo-Yo to save money.
@@frankief7111 "People do Yo-Yo to save money." - Or because they had no idea there was another way. I've had gas combi heating for almost 30 years in my house, and no-one has ever said I can run my boiler in any other way than flat out, with the rads getting scalding hot before cooling off again. I'd much prefer a constant heat - especially at the transition in & out of summer, when the house is either too hot or too cold, and rarely "just right".
very impressed with HEAT GEEK. I think a big problem is , companies claim to be mcs , they are the office staff, they then employ plumbers to do the installation . i have fitted a few for a company but have nothing to do with the commissioning etc .
I'd love this but honestly the amount of highly skilled people needed to sort this all out is just beyond us regular folk. Indeed, what would be the labour cost of all those 'Heat Geek' engineers required for this particular installation? The science and engineering is fascinating and clearly it can all work but I don't think it can be replicated for us regular folk. The skills are not out there in the numbers needed and even in this case, with all the knowledgeable pre-work (and previous efforts and results all noted), the actual cost of the final skills & labour required in this example looks to be extreme. I'd sign-up in a heartbeat if this massive team was available to me at an affordable price. However, skilled people do not work for peanuts (nor should they, their enhanced skills have to be rewarded) - even if you could find them.
It takes 2 skilled people about 2 oe 3 days to install a heatpump in a regular property. I believe they got all these chaps in to do it in less than a day. It was more for the video than anything. You absolutely do not need this number of people.
Great video and a highly impressive result on the revamped system. Its quite fun to see the arguments against heat pumps. "Oh well why dont you try fitting one to an igloo in the middle of the arctic circle and comes back tk me" 😂
@@stamfordmeetup No, they don't. Asteroids destroy planets. Exploding stars destroy planets. Vogons destroy planets. Wood burners are almost entirely carbon neutral, the main problem with them is the soot/ash they produce is toxic in high concentrations, and if all 7bn human beings used wood burners, there'd be a) no wood left, and b) smogs like you've never seen before.
Lovely to listen to, yet... the UK has had an "unusually" mild winter (again!!!). In the UK we are positioned geographically between the Arctic and the Sahara, the Northern Atlantic Ocean and the Eurasian continental mass. Depending upon global climatic variations, our weather can be dependent on prolonged Zonal conditions - basically air flow from similar latitudes, roughly East and West, or Meridional - from similar longitudes, roughly North and South. These highly unpredictable variations result in phenomena such as "The Beast from The East", "Spanish Plumes", and "blocking Highs". April 2024's continuing chill results from a northerly Atlantic High drawing down polar air from Scandinavia over the UK. Had this Meridional airflow occurred in midwinter, instead of the mild, wet Zonal weather we had from the mid-Atlantic, I'm not sure this video would have sounded so positive.
I live in Virginia USA and have just had a new heat pump put in to supplement the second floor hvac. It’s a Mitsubishi mini split and is almost silent. So far we are very pleased with it.
I personally had a condensing gas combiboiler installed just 2 years ago, I have a reasonable heating bill and my electricity price is still about 5 times higher than my gas price (it is going down, 2 years ago it was over 7 times), so I'm not changing over any time soon since it would take many many years to earn the investment back. Heatpumps are definitely the future, they're getting more versatile, more efficient, cheaper, the knowledge in the field is improving thanks to people like Heat Geek. However, a lot of the tricks to improve efficiency of a heatpump can also help the efficiency of a condensing boiler: oversized radiators or in floor heating, as low flow temperature as possible, weather compensation, lower hot water temperature with legionella cycles instead of maintaining a constant 60°C, improving insulation and draft-proofing, having an appropriately sized boiler instead of one that's 3+ times more powerful than necessary...
@@rkan2 Last time I checked my price for electricity was around €0.25/kWh, and €0.05/kWh for gas (when I installed the gasboiler it was around €0.30/kWh and €0.04/kWh). Unless the ratio drops faster and prices skyrocket, I don't see how it would be profitable to abandon my gas boiler prematurely and buy an ASHP. Instead, I invest in oversized radiators and reducing heat loss, so I have to burn less gas and I can make the switch when the boiler gives out or if the ROI makes sense to do it prematurely at some point in the future.
This is great to watch, 2 conficting opinions managing to find common ground. We the consumer benifit from both parties opinions and i really appreciate your mature approach to a controversial topic.
Me again! I have never had gas CH/HW as I am off the gas grid. My old solid fuel CH/HW was decommissioned when I had ASHP CH/HW installed on a Scottish Gov. 100% grant. Since I do not have any other form of heating to fall back on - which Skill Builder seems a tad fixated on, i.e., gas - I am 100% dependent on my heat pump system. Yet on the NW coast of Scotland, where winter is longer if not actually much colder than the south of England (Gulf Stream/maritime effect), my heat pump is just brilliant, the house is very cosy, I have no complaints at all. Yet in this video, SB dude seems to want 'back up', 'just in case'. Why? I have never been cold in the two years since my ASHP was fitted, and I spend on electricity - and I'm serious - less than 40% of what I formerly did on coal and wood. If I had gas heating I wouldn't need or even want a back up, so why so with a heat pump system?
yours is a good case for a heat pump. The weaknesses you face are: creating nuclear waste, susceptibility to either blackouts or disconnection by the thought police via your smart meter. Your solid fuel gave you fuel independence - perhaps you might have been able to double its efficiency?
I want to see how these work with a standard semi-detached house from say the 1930's. Not to mention a terraced house! Space for all the gear, what would need doing with pipe work, radiator replacement etc. etc. etc.
Do you want to search for urban plumbing by szymon cyban. He's got a couple of videos of London terraces with solid walls where they are working perfectly.
@@JoshuaStringfellow1 Best of luck with it. I am in a similar situation with age and type of house but just had new gas boiler fitted so won't be converting anytime soon.
Ground source heat pumps are the best of the heat pumps , put one in a farm 14 years ago & still going strong . Alot of factures to make sure you can get the best out the air source heat pumps ,miss one thing off and they under perform !!
Not convinced on heat pumps yet. Not been around long enough, plus I'm sure the designers can make them more efficient and more rapid whilst taking up less space.
Heatpumps have been in use in Scandanavia for over 30 years. The size is required for the heat exchanger. The smaller you make it, the less efficient it becomes. Can't bypass physics, unfortunately.
Bit like saying I’m sure they can make a much more efficient car, these are already highly optimised appliances, far more important is the quality and design of the install than the spec of the equipment.
Heat pumps have been in use in UK commercial market for many years now, and Worldwide have matured over past 60-70 years, with first ever made in @ 1856.... Modern monitoring and control along with precision engineering and design make them very efficient at recovering heat from atmosphere.
Don't doubt the COP when it's a bit cold and windy outside. My garden is a frost pocket, have 100% doubts when it's still and freezing weather. Annualised is no good, need most heating when it's really cold. All the hot water takes less than 3kWh/ day with resistive. (e.g. 1.2kWh for a shower).
Great video series, I am on board with everything up until the upfront installation cost and it's a shame it was glossed over in all videos here. £20k (£13.5k with grant) for an installation is insane, I have been quoted £3.5k from octopus energy which is easier to stomach but still struggle to understand how they can get away with charging £11k. 5 years ago we had a combi replaced and all radiators for just over £2k all in. I appreciate the savings generated but upfront costs are what most people will base their decision on!
Just to try and add a bit of balance, personally even after all these videos on this installation, I'm still not convinced that they've really made a strong financial case for installing a heat pump system. Firstly I'll freely admit I'm not a massive fan of these systems so may be I'm showing a little bias but when considering the two systems and the real overall costs I think the arguments regarding cost savings aren't that compelling. For a start as it was said in the video the original installation cost I believe was around £20,000 including insulation. Had the insulation alone been done and then the overall running costs re-calculated for the gas only system I doubt the benefit would subsequently have been so large. Next the system cost £20,000 when it didn't work effectively, so how much more did it cost to actually get it to work properly and how much additional cost was incurred whilst it was being fixed? A heat pump system uses more hardware and has more moving parts that can wear out, has a larger overall foot print, and from my experience cooling fans tend to get noisy as they get dirty/wear and external pipe insulation can crack and deteriorate over time. If the system takes 10 years to payback the investment and that was after discounting the BUS money I believe, then even at that break even point what is the remaining expected lifespan on the equipment going forward? I suspect the cost of maintaining a heat-pump system is also greater than your average boiler system. Don't get me wrong I'm not against Heat-pumps and EVs for that matter and I'm not just trying to be a miserable old Luddite, it's just that I'm not totally convinced that financially the claims that are made for them are really that strong. I appreciate the desire to be green and for those that are happy to pay the premium to support the cause, fair play to you and well done. However I'm more interested in taking up new technology once the financial case has been proven, I've no desire to be an early adopter if financially it is going to come at an additional and avoidable cost to me. Once the financial argument and overall benefits are beyond doubt then I'm more than happy to consider adopting them provided I am not required to make any other unreasonable sacrifices. Until then I'm happy to stick with my old boiler and an airing cupboard with space to air clothes in, rather than one with more vessels, pipework and valves than you can shake a stick at.
To be fair Heat Geeks are selling a product so are bound to paint it in a favourable colour. I think the original install was stated as £9k + £6-£7k extra presumably in an attempt to get it working better which ultimately failed. Heat Geek estimated that they would of allowed £20k for the original install. Obviously the true refit costs aren’t known as all the engineers gave their time for free and clearly they flooded the site presumably to do the work in a day or just over. I agree that the financial justification was glossed over somewhat and for many, particularly if you intend moving or are of senior citizen age, the payback and subsequent actual annual savings may never be achieved. As i have commented elsewhere, I’d be interested in a true like for like comparison of ASHP and gas boiler systems with similar insulation and weather compensation upgrades. Like you i suspect a greater portion of the savings is due to these factors over the method of heating. Especially when the BUS grant doesn’t sweeten the deal and electricity rates rise further as demand rises for electricity in all areas not just domestic heating
There is no financial cost argument though it's only appealing to people who think this is helping the climate 20k for a pump or 2k to have your boiler replaced it's not even close, that's before you factor in the insulation requirements But once there's a certain amount of people who've paid to have them installed you'll be able to move into a house where some other schmuck has paid for one to be installed and no cost to you
"A heat pump system uses more hardware and has more moving parts that can wear out, has a larger overall foot print, and from my experience cooling fans tend to get noisy as they get dirty/wear" - The larger footprint is true, yes, but since the HP is outdoors, and could be mounted on a wall in theory, I think it's less of a downside than you might think. I'm not sure that there are fewer moving parts, though; a boiler has various valves inside (both for gas & water flow), and any modern combi has at least one fan (the exhaust fan). It also has to have an igniter, flame sensors etc. Also - when was the last time you heard about a heat-pump explosion blowing a whole house apart...? There are domestic gas explosions most years in the UK, some of which are so big they're headline news. If nothing else, that should be an incentive to switch: Not having your house randomly explode! (Of course, it may not be your boiler causing said explosion... but heck, seems nuts having a flammable gas piped into your home when there are safer alternatives!)
@@theelectricmonk3909 I have heard of the odd house explosion over the years but I can't honestly say I have ever heard of one that has been directly attributed to an exploding otherwise fully functioning boiler. Cracked gas pipes, leaking gas fittings, following recent diy work possibly but have never heard of one being directly attributed to an un-tampered with otherwise fully functional and only ever worked on by qualified gas fitters, operating boiler! That said I have seen many claims of self combusting electric powered vehicles, be they hover boards, scooters, e-bikes, BEV,'s or hybrids. All that said I don't recall suggesting that Heat Pump systems self explode I just said they appear to be more complex and therefore reasonable to imagine a have higher associated costs to maintain at optimum operational performance.
Just found your channel. I work as a QS for a plumbing & heating company & we work in the new build environment so are currently working with ASHP & UFH systems. Going to share your channel around the office as the knowledge & opinions all match what we're working within now. We're all privately waiting for hydrogen production & infrastructure to get going to be honest.
Anything wrong with just adjusting the radiator flow temperature between 34 to 45°C as I do with our Vaillant LPG condensing combi? Easily modified to maintain 24/7 20°C in every room with adjustment to radiator valves. 3 bed semi in a rural situation, cavity and a bit of loft insulation. £1000/year cost.
@@advance-heating my only question, why did it take so long? Wasn't there any experts, scientific folk working for the boiler manufacturers who years ago should have said, bigger radiators, cooler radiator flows adjusted automatically to maintain internal ambient temperatures. Why did installers fit the wrong sized radiators, site the thermostats in the wrong positions, and set the flow temperature to 70C? Imagine how much CO2 we've wasted, how much ££££££s the energy suppliers and gas companies have made.
@@MadAsBagOfMonkeys love yr observations. Spot on. Boiler makers to this day disguise the advice given in their own manuals which craftily guide the installers to keep their boiler well OUT of condensing mode. Acidic condensate inside HExs are a real drag on warranty claims. Eg. Grant Thornton oil "condenser" warns not to set the return temp below 52°C. Swindlers! The FLOW should be set as far below 50° as possible. ha ha
True. I’ve had mine on throughout the winter. A modern stove when used correctly won’t produce any smoke. I get a few deliveries a year of logs and burn HT pallet wood. I leave it ticking over and it warms a large 3 bed house right up into the loft conversion. I light it at about 5ish It goes out about 12am most nights. We’ve only put the heating twice when it was below freezing in the afternoon. Best thing I ever did 👍🏻
Won't heat every room though and nobody wants cooking or clothes hanging around in the living room. I love log burners but I'm not daft enough to think they're anything but a novelty.
@TheDoosh79 it does heat every room, you just leave the doors open. We dry our clothes next to it, and there is no smoke at all, except sometimes you may get a small wiff of smoke when you chuck another log on. They are a fantastic heat source and very cheap if you're prepared to chop pallets, which I enjoy.
@@TheDoosh79 'but I'm not daft enough to think they're anything but a novelty.' - really! I have them in my last 2 homes and they are far from a novelty: heat spreads, they can be used to heat a water cylinder and if you have one with a hotplate they can be used for cooking (in a kitchen of course), especially useful as a back up and believe me kept my energy bill down by 30% - why would you think that?
Well done everyone for the input to this collaboration. I can only dream of that kind of COP. My system has higher COP (3) running the Mixergy than our heating! (2.5)
The point about horses for courses and gas boilers still being around for some after most homes have heat pumps has a major flaw. As the number of gas users falls, at some point the cost per user to maintain the required infrastructure for supply gas will become unfeasible. It will cost too much to sustain the gas supply industry in order to support as small number of thinly scattered gas users. It will be cheaper to put in electric (non heat pump) heating - even if those customers require subsidies.
The globalists are pushing wasteful, hopeless electric heating because it means that we become indicidually susceptible to their surveillance and control. Say one wrong thing in China/ UK on FaceBook and whoops your Smart Meter shuts down inexplicably. At least with gas fires and cookers they can't disconnect your means to a comfortable life remotely. Even a gas boiler can run from a decent UPS and solar pv.
@@jfinnie78 Using electricity for heating is an apalling idea. Average UK consumes 2MWh/pa electricity for sensible purposes of light, noise & movement, and 22MWh/pa gas for heating. The grid already struggles to maintain enough power, and there's certainly enough radioactive waste sloshing around Sellafield with no prospect of making it safe. So here's a bad idea: "Lets increase the demand for electricity 10 fold by getting rid of gas and oil heating."😳
@@advance-heating I think it is a reasonable idea in new builds if the houses meet the highest standards, have their own renewables supplies, and hence place little extra demand on the grid. The retrofit market is the huge problem here. Money being paid to subsidise retrofit generally for more affluent customers should be put into building new energy efficient homes and upgrading the grid for more green energy and capacity. Then retrofit the houses with the worst systems, and the rest of the retrofits will happen organically as older gas systems are decommissioned. Distorting the market by throwing huge subsidies has been a recipe for cowboy city on every scheme introduced, resulting in the realisation of a fraction of the benefits possible for the level of investment.
With weather compensation on a replacement gas boiler installation like I designed for a small business office complex using Danfoss equipment made for this purpose the system runs automatically 24/7 with good insulation and correctly sized radiators all with rad stats. This was over 20 years ago and worked efficiently and at much lower cost than the original gas boiler installation. It did, however, require the first electrician to be replaced as he could not understand the wiring! Some tech: The boiler had input and output boiler temperature sensors which enabled pump overrun without firing and there was an outside temperature sensor so individual rad heat output was system balanced. Nighttime system temperature was automatically lowered as the offices were unused during this time. Hot water was zoned.
Its good to see the UK showing some heat pump & refrigeration knowledge in the domestic sector. It cracks me up sometimes! because UK engineering consultancies are building mega a/c & heat pump systems in the commercial sector all round the world and have been doing so for a long time. Back in the 1980s my Fathers company was building heat pump fluid & air systems in the UK. Its not a new concept, its just the UK trade education system has been a bit shit for a long time.
It's good to know that this man, with a big house, has got his heat pump working quite well. However, he's been set up with a very knowledgeable, and experienced installer, who rectified the previous set up. How many installers are this experienced? Let's also note that the new installation needs a significant amount of room, and many houses have not got enough space. It doesn't seem like a solution to everyone's needs.
Excellent Roger. Thanks very much for such a great series. You and I are one the same page regarding most things. Very interesting. I'm surprised that people are still cooking on gas. In an enclosed area, even with decent ventilation, you are poisoning yourself. Our oil central heating also has outside temperature monitoring to help heat more efficiently. Here in Latvia we get temperatures as low as -30 and need the heating on for around 200 days per annum. For our 200m² house we need around 200L of diesel per annum, hot water included.
Our English homes are very draughty, which is what contributes to our very fine nature. There's almost no chance of NOx poisoning from a gas cooker, but every chance it will work well during the inevitable future power cuts as more and more idiots ruin their lives with heat pumps and electric cars. The National Grid would crumble if this subsidy madness continues. Typical homes consume 2MWh electricity and 20MWh gas annually. Now swap your gas boiler for a heat pump and imagine the added strain to the copper wires under your road... Get out the JCB again.
@@advance-heating What do you mean by very fine nature - is it that you're heating the countryside with your leaky houses so that stuff grows so well in nature to make it so fine, or the fine nature of the people who commit the knife crime that you're famous for?
@@RedRupert64 ha ha, what heat? The English are used to a slight chill at home, so we invented woolly jumpers! I met a fella running a city print shop once, who lived in a farmhouse with his ageing mother and an oil Aga cooer. They never turned on the central heating. "A house is supposed to proved shelter from rain and winds" he said. If we're honest, these detailed heating tech videos are dealing with First World problems ! I'm amazed you don't consume more than 200ltr of oil though in Latvia at -30°. I can't imagine you've got something like John's five empty bedrooms all kept rock solid at 20.3°C ?
Spend £20,000 to save £1,100 a year is not a true comparison. As you need to compare the cost of an original installation (say in new builds). Retrofitting say if you gas boiler needs replacing. That £20K for £1.1K saving gives a return (not accounting for inflation) over 18 years. Of course the technology in that install won’t last 18 years. So you won’t actually get that return. I think the comparison with two new builds same house design one with a gas boiler and one with a heat pump, is the only way to get a true comparison. You will see the impact in terms of original instal costs, running costs, and how the technology impacts the space within the House.
The more relevant comparison would be replacing a faulty boiler with a new one vs. installing a heatpump. For new buildings, it's even more in favor of a heatpump.
@@Felix-st2ueyou are correct due to the insulation standards required for the heat pump to provide the required heating, and of course the extra cost in doing so, driving new house prices up 🤔 now imagine the same comparison in the 80-90% of existing homes which don’t have the same built in insulation 😉
@@chrisellis1232 As can be seen in this video it's not the heatpump that is necessarily requiring higher insulation standards. They would also work with less insulated buildings provided the heated surfaces are big enough. However better insulation obviously reduces the required amount of energy for heating. But that's completely independent of the actual heat source.
Very true, as soon as the system has paid for itself it's time to upgrade negating the financial benefit. And remember that if your household goes out to work every day like most people then the savings are far less as a heat pump necessitates having the heating on constantly as it can take days to heat up a house. If the government ever take away the grant then it would make zero financial sense to get a heat pump.
@@ridethelakespeople spend their money how they want. If someone feels a heat pump is beneficial to them, financially or otherwise, then that's up to them. No-one's asking you to contribute and you're not being forced to buy one.
You have not compared running the gas boiler after upgrading the insulation which is at best misleading. My plumber, who also races and tunes classic F1 cars, a bit of an all round boffin, recommends downsizing the gas boiler and running it 24/7 effectively heating the home at a lower temperature like a heat pump but with much cheaper fuel.
You can do this yourself by looking at the data, or waiting until there is a year's worth. But you can take the total heat generated over a period, divide it by what efficiency you choose for a gas boiler e.g /0.95 for 95% efficiency. And then multiply the figure by your chosen gas price per kWh.
Our 18kW gas boiler keeps our 60s 5 bed house warm in the coldest of winters. Walls were insulated 40 years ago, and loft has at least 250 mm insulation.
Absolute great result. But as said, insulation should be the starting point. Having my house well insulated now gives me more comfort. I did external wall insulation, new windows and a new warm flat roof on the extension and garage, and the difference is huge. No cold drafts and with the bit poor April weather now, 10°C during daytime and around 0°C in the morning the small wood stove downstairs is still enough to heat the whole house. I'm typing this behind my computer upstairs, no heating on since the end of March, and still 18,5°C. When the woodstove isn't on I use air to air to heat, and the downstairs 7kW unit runs at 20% modulation (which is the minimum) and keeps it warm. A lot comes in draft proofing as well, but ventilation must be assured. Old houses without draft proofing however have a much higher air replacement rate than you need for the air quality to stay good.
Wind increases heat loss, so I guess a bit higher? - but that’s actually a beautiful correlation as more wind equals more low carbon electricity to heat homes.
An excellent video, gives a great insight and perspective of a heat pump system. I live off the Gas grid and rely on multiple sources of heat to warm our 100 year old + house. We have a pellet stove, an oil Rayburn, open fires and a multi fuel stove ! we hardly have the CH on. I agree with Rodger, with the perfect scenario a heat pump will be excellent, however for some folks it just wouldn’t work.
Speak to heating engineers, and telling them that the boiler will be replaced with a heat pump - they are fixated on telling me that my electricity bill will be higher than my gas bill, my living space (open plan living/dining/kitchen) has only one or three rads working for years - expect to change in next 12-24 months
We have to educate public front facing heat technicians that running boilers at 80 and cycling is much worse than running them at 45C continuously. Actually condensing boilers will condense at below 52C. ... Then the heat pump concept will catch on.
Exactly, same issue with EV cars. We are constantly being told that now wind and solar is the cheapest energy yet the unit price for electricity per kWh is much more than gas.
@@GaryBox Exactly And all the equipment is made in China using COAL powered Electricity The payback time will probably never cover the manufacturing transport etc The numbers do not stack up We are living in foolish times .. where they want you to buy nonsense at 10X the price of sense
And don’t forget about maintenance / breakdown and repair costs Look at the issues this customer has had here trying to get this system fixed and working properly It took an army of industry experts to put it right Also in an attempt to mask the true cost the government is propping up this technology , for now , with grants , aka our own money, which will eventually run out In reality it will never save you a penny and will simply cost a lot more than a conventional system in the long run Fancy flowered up performance graphs and a very smart sales presentation doesn’t convince me to part with my gas combi and log burner
Kinda forgets the point that boilers need replacing as well, so it's not £20k on top, it's £20k ( if it's that) - £5k that a normal boiler for this size house would have cost. So the actual cost is 20-5-7.5, he only needs to find 7.5k to make it back. And it saves 700 a year, and he lives in a more comfortable house. But the discussion is like for EVs. The biggest arguments against are made by people who never had one, so take their experience from other people shouting loudly. Robert hits the nail on its head. HP and EVs are great for most situations, but not for everywhere.
I am leaving this comment here so that after some hours, days, weeks, months or years when someone likes or comment on it, I will be reminded to watch this video again😄
It can, but there are lots of variables. To start - to run at lower temperatures you will likely need to increase the size of your radiators, those don't come free. You can't just turn the knob down on the boiler and call it a day. Also, there are also many houses (like mine) that have a single temperature dial for hot water and heating, so we can't turn it down to a lower temperature otherwise the water won't get up to temp. If I was replacing my boiler there's little benefit to me getting another boiler when I can get a heat pump and it be cheaper to run. Hardly irrelevant.
@@2frogland My 'Low Temperature' Daikin heats HWC to 55C (although set to 45C for a roasting hot bath), COP for HWC drops to 3 - 3.5 depending on weather and required temperature. 6kW Daikin heats 150 litres from 10C to 55C in @ 55 minutes, and uses lees than 2kWh of electricity. It then switches back to my set 32C flow temperature to radiators.
That's an interesting comment about keeping the gas boiler. I though they'd be incompatible with heat pump radiators but now I know they can be kept in the loop just in case.
@@johnchoice1371 Except they often don't, the difference is a heatpump will show signs if something is wrong, a boiler will just run up the bill and fail in the middle of winter without notice.
He is one of those people that resist every new and better thing. Just like he had to mention EV's too at he end. Probably was among the last guys with a flip phone too.
We live in an old semi-detached country cottage with no heating apart from a log burner. Great to see it's possible with ASHP and enjoyed following the series but will probably go with oil boiler this time around. Our connected neighbour has a heat pump but in winter is forking out £150-200 a month on electric. In 10-15 years when we likely need to replace hopefully by then heat pump installers will have the necessary understanding like these guys. In the meantime we'll make upgrades to insulation/airtightness.
If you’ve survived with no central heating perhaps give a small air to air system a go, far cheaper in every way possible than installing a wet oil system. If you do go the wet route, design it to be heat pump ready with low flow temperatures, will save skipping it all in 10 years time.
I live in an old stone cottage. For the same reason we got a hybrid system - heat pump and oil boiler. Got the full Scottish government grant and interest free loan on it. It was a no brainer going hybrid to get best of both worlds and ability to control how to heat my house.
The £2000 gas boiler gas bill was before the insulation and without weather compensation. I wonder what it would be know, probably closer to £1500. Just thinking.
My issue is every time there is a comparison its against a combi thats not set up properly get a gas boiler install thats got oversized radiators and on weather comp/mixed circuits etc and then do a comparison
@@nicksimmons7234 What do you term as ‘best’? Cheapest install - gas boiler Cheapest running cost - air or ground source Cleanest/lowest co2 - air source Cheapest lifetime cost - air source Highest comfort - weather compensation on any heat source
@@HeatGeek I was agreeing with you. Boilers not going to be as good. We live in an all electric flat in London and would love a heat pump vs our high end excellent quality heaters. Our heating is costing a fortune, £754 was our cost for Nov-Jan
This is my argument...on average electric is 4 times dearer than gas all this woukd be fine if everyones heat pump install has a efficiency of 450%. This may well be the case with some installs, however i argue the vast majority are 250-350%
It only depends on how much you pay gas and how much you pay electricity in any particular country. In Germany for example it is impossible: heat pumps and gas boiler from a pure cost perspective are equivalent. ( Without PV ) And and and. The above is true only if the property is well insulated. If not gas will definitely be cheaper.
Insulation makes both cheaper. Heat pumps only struggle in poorly insulated houses if you don't size the pipes and radiators properly. Otherwise they do just fine.
I only listened to the first minute and 13 seconds period in that short time I heard something I seldom ever ever ever ever ever ever here, and I'm very impressed. The guy says insulate your place well before anything else. It's so unfortunate that those words are not often uttered. Most homes could be heated for a small fraction of their current bill if three things were done. There insulation was brought up to Snuff. Their home was properly sealed against drafts. And they add High R-value windows installed. Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes I know this costs a lot of money but, in my opinion it's really wrong to use even the cheapest heating energy and Wasted by a home that lets it seep out of every crevice, every crack, every wall, every window, and of course the ceiling and Floors
Totally insulate your house before getting a heat pump fitted and you will save money. How about totally insulate your house and then save in the cost of a heat pump (and all the duff engineers calls associated), and see how much you save then.
26:30ish Since I got used to an EnerPHited house I've got a lot snootier about holiday homes/rooms, which are often draughty, hot/cold oscillating with freezing floors and just generally not very comfortable. You do get used to the comfy steady state of a well-insulated/non-draughty/comfortably-heated house, and what you used to think of as normal seems very inferior. The thing about having no idea what clothes to put on without opening the door is a bit annoying!
@@HeatGeekfull parts and labour costs covered? Of course not. I've recently been quoted £120 per hour from an HVAC engineer for a call out to fix my £800 fridge. Needless to say I binned it and bought a new one for £500 quid.
