Illegal wildlife trade is the 4th largest black market in the world. In the US alone, thousands of poached plants are seized every year. But is there wide-scale agave utahensis poaching happening today?
In my opinion wild collected plants should not be made available for sale even if they were rescued. This just confuses the consumers who want to buy legally grown plants. If those rescuers are doing what they do altruistically they should move those plants to a place where they can continue to grow as a wild specimen. I realize that may be easier said than done. We'll never be able to tell the poachers apart from the rescuers so why try? People who really care about the species will grow them from seed, as you are doing and they will rescue the ones who need it without trying to make a buck. Poachers are going to poach and people who don't care will buy from poachers. We just need to make the process difficult and clear cut.
I don't think there is currently widescale utahensis poaching happening that we need to combat. There is a very real threat to plants from mining and housing developments, and without the profit incentive, these rescue operations wouldn't be able to pay for the various certifications (like safety protocols for working in mining areas), or pay the employees who are actually transporting and caring for these plants. They do care about the plants, but they simply can't operate for weeks and weeks rescuing plants and then for months or years caring for plants for free. And if they can't sell them, where would they go? These are huge number of plants we're talking about. I worry that many (not folks like yourself, who clearly are actually concerned about the plants) folks in the plant trade, are using a somewhat exaggerated fear of poaching to create regulations that protect their businesses. Regulations like that would ensure that the public could only legally buy tissue cultured, cultigen, selections and hybrids produced by large scale companies (like the ones that supply home depot).
@@mojave_lv Well you certainly know better than me. I did not realize there were organized initiatives to rescue these plants. I have paid some attention to the plant poaching issue and assumed this was another plant under this threat. Could there be some kind of certification for rescuers so buyers know they are legit? I wonder. Thanks anyway for highlighting this issue!
Can you (legally) take a small cutting and grow a clone, which wouldn't kill the wild plant? I see nothing wrong with that as long as the mother plant isn't significantly harmed. But the law might disagree. Same goes for taking seeds. Interesting plant. Maybe one way to make taking seeds or clones ethical would be to rewild enough cultivated plants to offset what you took. Most seeds in the wild won't be viable, but in cultivation you can get very high germination rates. So returning some to the wild seems like a balanced trade.
I'm not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice, but to my knowledge, no, without proper permitting, at least in this state (and I suspect other states as well) even taking cuttings isn't legal. You're right though, that the ethics of the matter may differ from the law here.
@mojave_lv with this plant since it flowers only once does that mean it only goes to seed once in a lifetime also? How long does it take to start from seed? You are probably right on the legality. I suspect that the law might go easier on you if you are showing consideration and care when it comes to the mother plant. Just because something is legal doesn't necessarily make it ethical, and inversely just because something is illegal doesn't necessarily make it unethical (legality aside). Regardless I have no interest in getting into legal troubles over a hobby.
Correct, most agaves only seed once and then die. I sell seed grown utahensis on my website, they're very slow growing. Most of the plants I sell are around a year old.
From Japan. Thank you for the insightful video. I came across your video while researching the situation of poaching after I recently saw a large number of eborispina (over 200 /mo) suddenly appeared on Yahoo auction in JP. I thought your explanation of the temporary rescue of the population in connection with land development and the conversion of collected individuals into small cash to fund rescue activities was consistent with the current situation where large numbers of wild eborispina are currently being traded at relatively low prices in the auction. No offense, but on the other hand, your video did not seem to provide any evidence that such rescue activities really exist, and did not explain the content of "land development" and how these developments are unrelated to the incentives provided by the collection of eborispina. (Although I understand there are things you can't disclose to everybody to protect the trust between the people you are involved with). I’m just saying, but It’ll be very helpful If you could provide further in depth information as above in the comments or future video. Thank you for giving us the information about a difficult and sensitive issue.
Thank you for your comment! It's definitely a complex issue and I'm only one voice in it. First, I think it's important to note that many sellers are selling plants labeled as eborispina, that are absolutely not eborispina. My most recent video explains this in more detail. The vast majority of plants I see listed on Japanese Yahoo auctions as eborispina are not, they're nevadaensis. Secondly, it's also important to understand that in many places (including where rescue operations are happening) utahensis is the most common plant found. There are fields with thousands and thousands of plants. I think there is a misconception that utahensis is a rare plant, I think it's much more correct to think of it as a fairly common plant, in a fairly small habitat. If you ever visit Las Vegas, send me a message, I'd love to take you to some habitats where you can see that 200+ plants an month is hardly a dent in the over all population, and thus entirely reasonably attributed to legal rescue operations. And thirdly, you're absolutely correct that I was pretty vague in my descriptions of where these plants are being rescued from and by whom. Here in the US, there have been several notable examples of rescue operations that have been the target of well meaning but misguided public outrage campaigns. The folks involved in saving these plants don't want to be the target of these kinds of online mobs, and I don't blame them. And the primary folks selling them into the Japanese market are lying about them being eborispina, so I do not wish to give them any added publicity. Again, it's a complex issue and I'm just one voice, and I'm not perfect. I absolutely appreciate your concerns and am thankful that you're thinking about the ethics of these plants. Feel fee to reach out to me via private message here or on Instagram (@mojave.lv) and I can try to fill you in with a bit more detail that I'm reluctant to do publicly.
Thanks for another insightful comment. It was very helpful. Knowing the history of Japan being notorious for the importing&distributing exotic animals, I was also concerned about the distribution of utahensis. After watching your other video, I understand that it is very likely that the individual recognized as "eborispina" in Japan is nevadensis. Perhaps the sellers think that there is more demand to sell it as eborispina since the iconic utahensis individual in Japan called "Kagerow" is eborispina. It is a bit of a relief to know that the utahensis populations (subspecies or subspecies variants) are not seem to be on the verge of extinction and being drastically decreased artificially. (I understand this isn’t truly scientific conversation and I don't mean to justify the collection of wildlife.) Thank you also for the offering of private message. I think I’d like to know the details and ask you some more questions. Also, I look forward to more videos from you!
Awesome video that explains terms with concrete wording. However, the music in the background while you’re speaking is Very distracting and made it hard to follow.
Thank you for the feedback, I've been working on improving audio quality over the last few weeks. This is the first video I made with a new microphone. I'll be sure to adjust the background music level on next week's video.
@@mojave_lvpeople were able to locate a flag posted by Shia Lebouf based on flight patterns in the sky background. I don't think your background or lack of it is gonna change any determined person. People are just gonna whine about something.
I think you're definitely right about highly motivated and capable poachers. Wait till they figure out that Gentry's book Agaves of Continental North America was published in 1982 and has a list of nevadaensis and eborispina locations in it. 😂
I think it's important for plant collectors and plant nerds, like myself, to understand the reality on the ground about poaching and wild collection, so they can make informed and ethically defensible choices for themselves. My goal isn't to tell folks what they should or shouldn't do, it's just to give them as many facts as I can to let them make their own decisions. 🥃
