@@nathandaven I assumed the downtown was a given and Atlantic Station and Home Park could kinda be grouped as West Midtown these days with all the construction going on there. I did miss Vine City though.
This is really high quality for a channel of this size. It's really obvious you are passionate about Atlanta (and ubranism). Keep fighting the good fight!
On the other hand, Atlanta does have something that no other city has, and is perhaps one of the most viable solutions to the housing crisis: the Beltline. A simple walk/cycle trail has revitalized an entire low use industrial corridor and lead to the creation of thousands of homes - townhomes, apartments, dense subdivisions - along with tons of spaces for small businesses and walkable neighborhood town centers. Even in areas miles away from a MARTA stop. Imagine how many homes and small businesses you could create by recreating this kind of development, everywhere across the country. Imagine how much more enjoyable our cities would be if everyone had access to quiet trails that let them reach all kinds of neighborhoods and businesses
It’s not that we need to stop catering to cars, but we need to start catering to pedestrians. We have 2 subway lines and 2 half lines. The failure to invest in MARTA/light rail is everything.
@TommyJonesProductions You must be from another state and live in Downtown or Midtown to say that. Locals have family and work in areas with inadequate bus service.
when I visited ATL this past December, I noticed that there indeed were plenty of homes going up but yeah, not enough "missing middle" homes, tho, I did see some townhomes Toronto made similar mistakes and we're really reeling from it with our housing problem. Not sure we can really build fast enough, but we're running out of options I really like Atlanta and I think you've got a lot of thing going on so I'm rooting for you guys!
Definently need a mix of developer investment (moderate density 5 over 1s, tods, etc) and individual infill (duplex comversions, adus, etc)! Not just in Atlanta but in the suburbs too
Its definitely been feeling like Atlanta is building new homes and what not for people coming to the city but not for the people that live here. At least I know I'm not crazy.
Another massive problem too. I love that there's more tech jobs but all the new housing is going to transplant Google and Microsoft engineers and none are actually for locals unless you can afford near New York prices.
I grew up in Atlanta and moved to Portland over a decade ago. Whenever I go back to visit it is such a terrible experience. The traffic from everything being so carcentric is horrible. You can't walk anywhere as your destination is usually 10-40 miles away. And of course, the suburbs span as far as your eyes can see.
Totally agree with your points, but you can’t deny that Atlanta in terms of city amenities and growth is in an entirely different stratosphere today than 10/20/30 years ago. In 2000 Atlanta was a borderline top 20 city in the country in terms of influence, today its easily top 5 and (outside of traffic) living conditions here have gotten really nice and enjoyable in many parts of the metro that use to not be
This is facts lol, i live in a 7k sqft home 2 mins from the beltline in virginia highland, and am right next to a set of single story homes and across the street is an apartment complex hardly larger than the house alone. Really hope they can get their urban planning under control.
they're building a new mixed use development (Medley of Johns Creek) - made by the creators of Avalon - right next to me in south Forsyth / north Fulton. The $1 billion dollar "The Gathering at South Forsyth" also has plans to open nearby too. Houses in the area are already around 700k+ - even 3 million now 😭
I’m from Nashville, Tennessee and it is very large but is also low density so it literally tells the same story as Atlanta and Nashville is growing very rapidly and will never stop.
Everyone whines about atlanta traffic while atlanta has aa metro system that makes me, a guy from Maryland, jealous. Add heavy rail commuter, to surrounding counties and savannah, increase marta train frequency and maybe a line or two, and they might be cooking with a system that rivals Washington DC
Discussions on expanding the rail system have been going on for the past 40 years to no effect. There was a discussion on the rail system using some of the tracks used for freight trains, but the freight train company objected. Present discussion is on express busses. Though, unlike rail, express buses are subject to traffic conditions.
marta is great if you live near a station and where you're going to is near a station, which is pretty rare honestly I've had bad experiences with marta buses. like buses showing up 25 minutes late from the scheduled times... but it was free during covid which was great
I tried Marta pre-pandemic. Hated it. Sometimes, the train would make everyone get off. I generally never knew why, though one time it was because a drunk man went incontinent in both ways possible, making the train a biohazard. A train near the airport derailed and we had several weeks of single tracking until they got that fixed. My place of work was a mile from the station. Toting two laptops and other equipment that mile was just plain cumbersome. - @sereysothe.a
There’s so much land on the southside that’s just sitting there empty, especially around the MARTA line. I wonder if it’s speculation. The longer these people sit on this land, the more it’s worth.
@@kennixox262This isn’t true at all. Glenwood Park home values are over a million. Grant Park is also expensive. East Atlanta, Ormewood Park, Summerhill, Peoplestown, Chosewood Park, and Boulevard Heights are also booming with construction. It’s only SW Atlanta that isn’t keeping up.
@@dbclass2969 Yes, but you are still ITP. However, saying that, I would never live south of I-20. Probably in Brookhaven, just east of the Fulton County line - east of Peachtree Dunwoody Road around the country club, oh wait, I did that then moved 2000 miles west.
@@dbclass2969because southwest Atlanta is the old Atlanta black elite. You have to be from Atlanta to understand that southwest Atlanta is trying to maintain that. The last few mayors are from south west. Think Keisha lance bottoms and Shirley Franklin.
Yes, I've been wondering about certain things about South Atlanta. South Atlanta and its suburban areas are less populated. Most of the population is in the northern region, particularly the Northeast. I was watching a wendover production, and there is more Dollar generals in South Atlanta, but not enough groceries.
Have you ever looked into how Montreal handled the missing middle problem. I've visited Montreal and really liked the layout. I've always wondered if we can do too or will racism get in the way.
Montreal's high on my list! They're famous for specifically not having a missing middle lmao. I've only been to Vancouver in Canada, really enjoyed it!
Great video. I haven't lived in Atlanta for ten years, so it was a lot of fun to see some of the old sights. (I knew that apartment building on Argonne looked familiar along with several other locations.) Thanks for fighting the good fight.
NYC is much denser and our prices are still high. We need a federal push for dense growth across the country to satiate demand, if supply solutions are the answer.
Per capita NYC and the NYC metro area have built hardly any housing in the last 1/2 century. There is simply not enough homes built to match the job growth. Cities and metro areas that build the most to meet the job growth are the most affordable.
NYC is a whole different scale versus most of US cities. But as said above ^ NYC doesnt build enough housing either. Which means yes, we should just upzone long island😆
@@nathandaventwo things I need you to acknowledge. 1.) Rent control is bad. Nearly all urban economists have panned it as effective policy. It disincentivizes housing construction and incentivizes evictions. 2.) Requiring builders to “sell it for less” by having a certain percentage of them sold below market reduces incentives to build more housing. We need to treat builders like we treat farmers. We subsidize the hell out of them
Hey Nathan, I loved the video. So informative. Just one small suggestion if I may is that memes, images or graphs are a little longer on the screen so they can be read. Hope you don’t take it bad :)
I live in a Progress Residential owned home - they bought it for $340K about a year and a half ago, when it last transacted for $124k in 2000. A whopping ~1100 square foot 40 year old home - I don't understand how the economics of these work. To their credit, I will say they actually are easier to work with than any apartment landlord I've lived in.
When I moved down there for grad school, it was ridiculous to me as a woman from Philly how jammed the hwys were when they had less lanes than most large cities in the Northeast. One reason I didn't plan on staying there when I saw you needed a car to get most places.
it's brutal! I will say its totally doable car free if you live and work in the same neighborhood, on marta lines or frequent busses, or willing to bike/ebike, it just takes some planning. But having grown up in the burbs here, not having a car makes it extremely difficult to visit family, friends, or go out since not everyone shares your alternate reality 😆
@@willp.8120, exactly and # of freeway lanes in nothing to brag about. It's not a standard for measuring cities Philly's got enough lanes to get people around.
Georgia needs another major metropolitan area really badly. We're a BIG state, so we can't have home values determined by how close to Atlanta they are.
Nathan must be familiar with the Strong Towns channel and perhaps even Not Just Bikes. I'm from the Netherlands, living in ATL for 18 months... The suburban sprawl, zoning laws, car centric city design, etc has continued to fascinate me.
I appreciate the growth of the quality & diversity of content on your channel. Keep up the great work! One discontinuity I’d like to see addressed is the difference between the small multi unit that would be an incremental increase in a typical SFH neighborhood, where financing is much easier to come by, typically built, owned & managed by local people, and keeps the wealth in the area longer versus the corporate development of large parcel assemblages that are way out of scale & context of the neighborhood they’re imposing upon, requires outside/foreign money, ownership & management, while extracting wealth away from the community immediately. Talking with residents about how they perceive & feel about the difference between the small multi unit of missing middle versus the goliaths of midrise structures, including the developers who would & could build the neighborhood scale multi unit would be a major contribution to the urbanism RU-vid discussion!
I do want to add in interviews at some point to the videos as I broaden out into new topics, but definitely a bit scared to 🤣 IRL I'm a huge hermit these days.. soon though I'll be brave! thanks for watching!
@@nathandaven consider enrolling other urbanists to do the interview while you record. I’m sure there are others who’d love to participate without having to do the production from start to finish!
I wouldn’t say Atlanta is full. Real estate is just overpriced. You can’t even find a decently priced apartment unless you move to Paulding or Carroll County these days. I’d imagine it’s like this in most major cities these days.
Love watching your content. Nathan you gotta do a video of the top 5 TOD Marta stations. Now that 4 more stations are coming near beltline. Which of the current stations are the best to go to??
Well honestly, the best "TOD" MARTA stations are the ones at historically walkable locations! So Fivepoints/Peachtree center, Midtown/Arts Center, and Decatur are all great places you can just get out and explore. Edgewood/Candler TOD is decent but honestly the TOD isn't really a destination unless you like expensive sandwiches, better to walk over to L5P or the Candler Park strip. Linbergh is historically the first TOD, and is great if you need a big box store as every single one is there. I think the Indian Creek TOD coming up is going to be a much more anditious TOD project though. thanks for watching!
Houses are simply too large and faux-luxury. As a developer, there is a flat cost on setting foundation, plumbing, etc. when maximizing profits, this means larger, luxurious, and more expensive homes/apartments. Causing housing segregation, rent increase, congestion, and more ecological scalping. Not to mention this mass development "heats up" the city, as a large amount of shade/water retention is lost when mass developing - There is still no good standard to ecology in new development, there is much waste in the clean-slate approach. I wish developers could slow down, and would consider long-term consequences on community and livability.
Remember how speculative housing prices ended up being one of the largest contributors to the 2008 crash? Back then it was called "home flipping", and a 2009 Now York Times article showed that more than half the "bad mortgages" banks handed out weren't bought as homes, they were bought as investments. It turns out, when you live in a house, you generally don't like being evicted, so you do whatever it takes to keep paying your home payment. Things like spending half your income on housing, destroying your ability to contribute to the broader economy, leading to the 2008 recession. But the investors don't act like regular consumers. When they realize they're going to be losing money during a crash, or they're already losing money on their investments, they all panic and try to sell everything as fast as they can, contributing to the bubble finally popping. The recession is here. Average consumers are already feeling the squeeze. The pandemic stimulus is a distant memory. Housing unaffordability is at 2007 levels, while consumer debt is at record levels again. Repo rates are on the rise, and the price of food has doubled in the last 10 years. People look at the stock market and see it at record highs, and claim there can't be a recession, but they forget that the stock market made all-time highs in late 2007, right before The S&P dropped 50% in a single year. The start date for a recession is measured by things like stock markets suddenly going down for an extended period of time. So it's silly to say that a recession can't happen when literally the only part of the market that's doing well is the stock market. Both people and businesses are running out of money to throw at the stock market. Once desperate people start reaching into their retirement funds, huge investment funds will suddenly change from buying to selling, leading to the stock market going down. The stock market is the last flimsy leg the economy still has, so once it gives out, that's when an "official" recession will start. Atlanta home prices can't possibly stay this high for much longer. Yes, there are broader problems with housing affordability, but when I know multiple people moving farther away from the city center, I have to ask, who's buying these overpriced homes? There's almost no one left who can afford Atlanta's housing except investors, and they buy using credit just like we do. Soon, they'll run out of cash since banks are already tighten lending, meaning they'll have to start selling their homes or renting them out in order to keep their lights on. Either way, that's a massive injection of supply into the market. Yes, the broader decade long trends of supply and demand are still there, which will eventually drive up prices. That's why the investors are all tripping over themselves to buy homes in Atlanta. They know that in 30 years, they'll be far more valuable. However, that ignores the shorter term supply and demand trends. Investors have pushed out regular home buyers, and investors are far more fragile and weak in bad economies. They don't have to live in the homes they buy, so they can sell hundreds or thousands of homes, declare bankruptcy, and walk away. Regular home owners don't typically sell their home because the economy got bad, and if they do, they have to buy another one. That means regular home owners don't change supply and demand based on how well the economy is doing. Investors are the opposite. When the economy is good, they have money to invest, creating massive demand spikes. But then when the economy slows down, they sell, creating a temporary glut of supply, while removing their demand from the market. It's a double effect change when investors enter or leave the market, which creates a huge swing in prices either direction. Home investors are foolish if they think there's not a massive drop in home prices coming soon. Over a year ago, Redfin and Zillow both closed their program to buy "undervalued" homes, because they ran the numbers, and realized home owners simply weren't buying homes at the prices other investors were. Yes, those programs were plagued by bad practices like buying homes without pricing in necessary repairs, but that only meant they failed sooner than the other investment companies. None of that changes the economic fundamentals, that regular home owners have been priced out of the market. Practically every person I talk to is frustrated because housing is completely out of their reach. Once investors realize they can't sell their inflated homes to other investors, and one of those firms is forced to finally sell homes at a price regular people can afford, prices will drop like a rock. Within a year, we'll see the official start of the recession. That will be the start of a multi-year decline in housing prices. Soon, a single one of those investors will declare bankruptcy and have a fire sale on their inventory. Once a single one of those investment firms suddenly has to start panic selling, that will drive housing prices down suddenly and rapidly. However, homes are low liquidity, so it'll take years for housing prices to finally bottom. It was around 2011 before home prices bottomed from the 2006 peaks, so expect a ~5 year decline. I'm paying attention to all of this stuff, because I live in Atlanta, and it would be really nice to own a home. I'm tired of having to constantly move apartments. I want somewhere to settle down, so I'm carefully watching housing prices and paying attention to the cycles that drive prices. Once homes finally decline and hit their lowest prices around 2026-2028, I'll be in the market, buying a house. Because in the long term, housing prices can only go up from here. Your thesis around long term trends will eventually drive prices up. But the shorter term economic trends will dominate the next few years, so it's going to be a good time to enter the market. That is, if the recession hasn't already destroyed your ability to buy in a few years. One bad layoff and suddenly that planning goes out the window. Which is why it's important to be Scrooge Mc. Duck levels of frugal right now, so you're prepared to weather the incoming storm, and still have money left over afterwards to jump into the housing market when prices are at their lowest. By the time the average person recovers economically from this recession, housing prices will be high again. The alternative economic theory is that we aren't going to have a recession, but instead we'll have some combination of stagflation, massive inflation, or a serious depression, and all this planning goes out the window because the economy is so unimaginably broken that everyone suffers regardless of how prepared you are.
love your videos man. you put serious work into these and give some great insight without it being sensationalized I grew up in atl metro and just graduated from emory a few weeks ago so now I'm leaving the city, but every video of yours I'm learning more about this place!
Spoke is decent and only two floors underground, but yeah theres a ton on the other side, plus theyve just finished a whole another deck for the pie factory site 🤷♂️ is what it is..
I believe its only available to buy in person, at Posman Books in Ponce City Market. But you can also read it online for free at 72b006f2.flowpaper.com/ACDSecondPrintFINAL180820/#page=1
Excellent presentation! A fact I read elsewhere: in geographic area the Atlanta metro is as big as Massachusetts! 😮 Unlike Massachusetts it's all incredibly wasteful suburban sprawl. 😠
Awesome video. I talk about the impact of the 96 olympics to atlanta all the time and how it changed everything. They pushed all the homeless people out and literally put up big walls so tourists wouldn't see the rest while visiting for the events.
Nathan, I like this type of channel - city planning & geography etc & how these do/don't create safe, happy places to live ... suggestion - could you speak a bit more slowly - great info, very detailed - which I appreciate - but, I had to keep listening over & over to understand it all - because the pace was just too fast for me - thanks...
The suburbs need comprehensive planning and density too big time. I grew up in a working class suburb and that lack of infrastructure limits economic opportunity and basic quality of life
I definitely would love to see serious moves of rezoning parts of the city for more multifamily housing and missing middle and mid rise housing but ultimately at the same time transit investment needs to be also a priority for Atlanta's growth as well and that means more expansion of MARTAs current rail system into the outer counties and the building of more lines to best service the metro area. Also where can i get a copy of that book??? 10:50
My family wanted/needed to own a home (affordable in suburbs) while job opportunities happen to be more city centric. I feel like this is the reason why most people live this way and I rarely hear it being discussed. A new apartment building in downtown won’t look like a valid option for most people. It would cost more and all that money just go towards the landlords pocket.
These corporations and institutional investors need to be stopped in their tracks and stripped of their power. The monopoly they have over the housing market is screwing everyone who isn't an investor, and it's evil at it's core.
Urban sprawl, is definately the USAs main contribution to urban planning. I only wish we had ignored your other one obsession awful retail parks with free parking, as along with online shopping (thanks Amazon) it has completely hollowed out the shopping experience in many UK towns and cities.
Surprised you didn’t talk about The Stitch project. Basically, it would cover up the downtown section of I75/85 and reattach Midtown and Downtown. More land to use for affordable housing, park space, and MARTA access. With the added bonus of not having to deal with NIMBYs in Ansley and Morningside
Cyber truck owners are also people who live here. I’m not a fan but be careful undermining your intent with jabs to people who are different than you and may like different things. Thanks for the leanings! 😊
Right near my house, theyre building 2 different, dense apartment complexes, one of which will be designated to affordable housing. Maybe this overlaps with the fact that it is a block away from a Marta station? Itd be fun to be walking distance from shops and bars, but I really need my own yard. I have rural preferences, but I enjoy and need the city for work lol. Im sure this makes me part of the problem
Amazingly researched vid! I visited Midtown in February and saw quite a bit of new construction in progress all over town. Some of the buildings seemed massive. What's the data for incoming residents? How many people are migrating to Atlanta every year?
Thanks for watching! Atlanta Regional Commission is a good resource for this they track population trends and manage predictions. atlantaregional.org/what-we-do/research-and-data/atlanta-region-population-estimates/
Great I have finally connected to a RU-vid spiral in the algorithm, of videos that are taking a crap on my city. Aight YT - bring it and do your worst Atlanta’s issues: 1) NIMBYs 2) see #1 Good work on your vid! I’m local maybe we’ll run into each other one day 👊🏻
Amazing content, as always. I don't live in ATL (have family there though). Is the upcoming zoning reforms something that will be a referendum or is it just being discussed by elected officials?
Thank you! It is upcoming legislation, that will begin drafting after the CDP for Plan A is done this summer. It was put on hold until the design plan is complete. Obviously there's a lot of parties involved so I'm sure that'll get pushed back further cuz Atlanta lol. This video took a lot longer than I thought, I was hoping to get ahead of the workshopping a little but took way longer than I planned, I'm just one guy 🤣
I appreciate you doing this episode and highlighting some of the reasons behind Atlantas current infrastructure. I’d like to add that many times when you referenced minority communities you were primarily referring to black communities. Atlanta was always a hub for the American Negro specifically after the period of reconstruction even up until the early 70s and 80s, decades after much of the policy was already in existence
What do you mean "never used parking lot"? I use that one every time I go to little 5. It's super close to the vortex, and theirs is usually packed on the weekends.
it blows my mind that you dont have more subscribers! but yes as a person who moved to atl last year for grad school despite being told its full, there are too many people 🥲
Atlanta's greater metro is second only to Boston for the worst civil zoning, planning, and engineering I have experienced across 7 states and 3 countries. We're not full, but I assure you that you can do better. It's made by eggheads who only understand cities on 30"x42" sheets...which makes it genuinely baffling to experience the multiple cardinal sins of civil design from the ground. Zoning could help, but there's a lot of massive F ups that have been cured in concrete. The only reason I've stuck around here for so long is because my employer is paying for my Master's...
We have been full for 7 years. What’s worse, 100% of those moving here somehow turn out to be the that MF who blocks the left lane. How can they ALL be that guy?? Wtf
@nathandaven Edgewood, Candler Park, Old 4th Ward, Little 5 Points, Emory, West Midtown. "scpatl4now" missed Edgewood. Edgewood and Candler park are two separate neighborhoods in two separate NPUs (Candler = NPU N, Edgewood = NPU O). Nathan is standing on the Edgewood side of the Edgewood/Candler Park MARTA station, 2 blocks from my house in Edgewood on Flora.
I was going to write a longer comment. Explaining why you are as much to blame as the NIMBY, and how we really need to solve the issues here in Atlanta with better financial education, tasteful transit based development and developing more local city centers rather than creating one central mega city. But I can't help but think it would fall on deaf eyes.
SON.. IT'S THE DISPARITY. GEEZOHHHHHHHHHH yallz. Economics, you can not Support a City on People with Low amounts of income. NIT everyone Can Be into media arts Yallzzz. Dang most Workers get paid to little. thuse Housing costs go up Construction Rates goes down.. TELL THE STINGY OWNERS TO PAY MORE
I make $7,500 - $11,000 a month, have a 740+ credit score and I cant get approved to rent a house in atlanta from mainstreet renenwal or progress. A lot of the homes for rent sit empty for 6-8 months because they make it hard to get approved to rent a home.
