You can use a similar approach to estimate your mental ability scores (INT, WIS, CHA) as you did your physical ability scores (STR, DEX CON), which is to invent a way to perform each of the standard tests for each ability score. E.g. A test of your investigation skills and history knowledge to determine your INT, a test of your perception and medical knowledge to calculate your WIS and a test of persuasion and intimidation to determine your CHA.
I feel like Grace started out pretty shy in the first episodes, but with time she's getting more and more confident and soon the channel will change the its name to "Grace World Destroyer (and Bob)".
Something dnd doesn't account for (or mostly doesn't) is strength vs. proportional strength. So Bob is really good at climbing walls/ropes because his is light, but his absolute strength based on how much he can lift is low. Some dnd rules like carrying capacity do take into account creature size, but those are broad categories that don't distinguish between small and medium creatures. I like the CoC way of having a score for Strength and Size from which speed is determined.
I have been climbing for 7 years and currently run an ongoing D&D game with a bunch of my climber friends so I was especially looking forward to this video! Some things to note, because I also have informally tried to challenge myself to climb 15 feet in 6 seconds and other speed challenges: - I was able to do 15 feet in 6 seconds BUT only on what I would consider easier rated walls (V1-V2) for myself on a boulder wall (with no rope). On top rope I was able to do it on walls up to the 5.9 rating. Also I was wearing climbing shoes and had chalk. Both are tools specifically designed to enhance your climbing which a normal adventurer probably wouldn't have. Since adventurers wear boots and may be wearing gloves, these actually inhibit climbing and make it harder. (In fact we joked that the Boots of Climbing magic item is actually just a pair of broken in climbing shoes). - New climbers or those who don't climb often have their hands shredded and often find themselves in pain from the friction that rough holds give. An average climber's hands have more callouses that protect the hands making it a lot easier to climb. - I also am able to clear a 40 foot speed climbing wall in around 11 seconds. This is only because speed climbing walls are standardized and the same anywhere you go. Essentially you climb the same exact wall over and over and over and memorize the movements to get muscle memory and a faster climb. Speed climbing walls are generally around 50ft high and competitors easily can clear it in 6-7 seconds with the world record being 5.2 seconds! I 100% agree with your disposition in this video and that the climbing rules in D&D are really ambitious. I was able to do it, only because I have years of experience, proper gear and equipment for aid, and overall work out the specific muscles friendly to climbing more than an average adventurer probably would. Additionally adventurers are waaay more athletic in a general sense, they are carrying gear, hiking miles, fighting, and wearing clothing that is not compatible with climbing like boots and gloves. That being said, there is a huge blend in community between climbers and D&D (and other TTRPG games) where I am from! I absolutely love this series and its always fun getting to watch your favorite content creators shedding light on what you love! Thank you for this!
That makes your class a monk basically. No armor, no gloves and light footwear. So the monk climb feature which assumes a bit of super human feats for adventurers makes sense. I think climbing speed RAW only works for ladders or heights 10 feet or below where the initial jump momentum plays a way bigger role. This also makes spider climb and similar features way more important exploration and escape wise than some people may think.
The production value on this series keeps going up! It's great. Would you consider your characters to be proficient in Athletics? You at least seem to know how to use a "climbing kit".
Tbf you get given an induction so everyone is relatively proficient in the climbing gym. Proficiency would come into play if they were lead climbing outdoors or setting up a top rope outdoors
I'm actually kind of amazed at how many of these are very accurate! Makes you wonder if WOTC did very similar tests. Imagine Jeremy Crawford struggling over that wall 😂
If you look at the series as a whole some seem more coincidental, However they likely did do some similar tests, WotC likes mathematics in their games and D&D most of all.
My theory: I think Bob may actually be a Hobgoblin, but one of peace, in touch with his Fey roots. Fighter? Probably samurai; he's so calm, so in tune with nature. Stephen the Animal? A Bugbear, perhaps? Big, strong, unseen, but often heard, always in stealth mode behind the camera. The Bugbear Rogue is formidable, and comfortable in his blanket. Grace? ...Goblin Warlock seems pretty spot on. She is cunning, just waiting for her chance to strike and tell us not to build. What are her true goals? No one knows...not even her. Great video! The dedication to putting the PHB rules through its paces are incredible, thank you all so much!
Deception works with charisma, right? You could play one truth two lies or something like that. But first you'd have to find Waldo to get your Wisdom Score, so you can make sure that the other person doesn't have just ridiculously high wisdom
Charisma, there's the easy tests (Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion), which might be best tested against unsuspecting (but willing?) subjects. Performance should be fairly easy; just pick a talent, and show it off the best you can. You could also test calm under pressure, how you handle stress.
For charisma scores, there are many games that rely a on bluffing that test your deception, performance persuasion. E.g. Sheriff of Nottingham, Liars Dice or Spoof.
Watching you guys climb. And there are no coniferous trees. They have branches lower down and make for better climbing. Amazing skill everyone and a great video again!!!
Ideas for charisma. 1) trying to get a discount on an item at a random store 2) dressing up (or down) and see if people in a public space look at you 3) saying a joke to a random person and getting their reaction 4) trying to sell a random person a worthless type object 5) smile 😁 at someone and trying to get them to smile back
Goblins have 30 ft. movement speed, though. 5e PC races with 25 ft. walking speed include: Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, Aarakocra, and Grung (although Grungs also have a climbing speed of 25 ft.). Maybe she's one of those races instead? I'd say she's not stocky enough to be a dwarf, but perhaps she's a halfling or a gnome? I'd say most likely a halfling since they don't have darkvision.
Charisma should be a persuasion of people to say hi to your camera or take a flyer, how many people you can convince of a lie about your self, and showing a short clip to several people of you trying to intimidate them and ask for a rating of 1-10/1-20 The more people who you calculate their score, the more accurate you can be.
Charisma test should be giving compliments to strangers and see how many smiles you can rack up. Then just normalize the values between 0-20 : ) Side note, I never really liked the naming of "charisma" since it gives most people the idea of schmoozing someone when we also use it to intimidate! And it makes even less sense in the context of spell casting for sorcerers and such. I like to use "willpower" like Star Wars when I describe it to new players to give it the full breadth it deserves.
That is why i suggested they ratter make an Emotional Intelligence test. Its about comprehending your emotions and the emotions of others and your ability to use that knowledge to your advantage. But i don't think it would be as enterteinig as complementing random people on the street XD.
@@jjman147 wisdom is the opposite of intellect in game mechanics for me. Intellect is knowing stuff. Wisdom is being able to figure stuff out or using intuition. I base a lot of these explanations on the associated checks. Like identifying a plant to me is a nature check, not a survival check. But survival is wisdom and not intellect because its about you applying a skill set to a novel situation.
you guys are adorable. Thanks for doing this whole series! Good stuff! p.s. I'm also an avid climber and have many issues with D&D rules around climbing. However, I love how easy they are to run... So, I simply bite my tongue and keep gaming. hehe
Persuasion is part of Charisma. Trying persuading random people to take a flier from your hand for some non-profit cause. Maybe best out of 20. Intimidation is also part of Charisma. All of my ideas will probably get you in trouble. 😂
@@BobWorldBuilder Then use the amount of henchmen from AD&D table. Then let's call them "friends". How many each of you command on a daily basis? I mean, talk to.
Yess great video! For a charisma video, maybe a structured debate for persuasion, and trying to intimidate each other with just the words you're saying and how you're saying them? That's definitely a tough one though, excited to see what you guys do with that!!
Almost like climbing could be a skill, or represented by a skill. Something by which you could say you were trained, or proficient, in, as well as your natural aptitude for it. Huh, they should look into that.
Charisma scores should be calculated by a few different parameters. The skills based on charisma are deception, performance, persuasion and intimidation. You should test each CHA skill independently. The trouble I am having is putting numerical values to these tests. I think doing a stand up comedy event would be good and Guage the audience reaction for a score. Of course make the jokes intentionally about D&D. Or a live musical performance (if you are proficient) would be a good substitute as well. Next, try to sell things to people to figure out persuasion. Intimidation would be a difficult skill to test. The only thing I can think of is setting up a rule to be broken, like "don't walk on the grass" then try to intimidate people who break the rule. Kinda like how security guards intimidate Skateboarders on private property. Just don't crit fail on the wrong person!!! Decption would be the easiest to test. Come up with a bunch of lies and truths and have others see if they can pick the lie out of the truths. Even putting a numerical value on that would be easy. I hope this helps for your CHA video.
One thing D&D doesn’t represent is that it’s not just about STR when climbing, but about STR to weight ratio. Bob does much better with the wall and plain rope not because his strength score is higher than StA’s, but because he’s carrying a lighter frame and none of them are wearing gear. Also Bob is clearly trained in athletics even though he’s a Dex build.
TROVE Here are some ideas for Charisma score (Not sure if they are good ideas but my best try) Start a conversation with a stranger and convince them to check out your channel casually. However you'll need to succeed on an insight check to actually know if it works so the next one is better - Do a street performance(if you can) and see how many people you attract.
Pretty sure 3rd edition was the last edition Gygax had any input in, and quite a bit has changed from then, namely that you don't need to make a roll to climb, which can severely impact your climb speed, either from not advancing at all in a single turn, or actually falling, and that the base speed is half rather than a quarter. Though both do cover half to quarter speed for various reasons.
Loved this episode! Especially how spot on the difficult terrain was. Still I wouldn't necessarily say that movement speed doesn't apply to climbing - more accurately, walking speed doesn't apply. Humans definitely don't have a "climbing speed" so that's true in that case, but races like tortle and tabaxi and spiders have claws or other different types of appendages that make climbing vertical surfaces much easier
For Charisma put the world builder and world destroyer on opposite entrances to the grocery store and sell girl scout cookies to see who sells the most for the win. Or since we are getting to Christmas time dress up in Santa outfits to combine deception checks and raise some money for a charity.
This remembered me seeing my father, when he was like 40, climbing a tree, like that one Bob failed, like it was nothing. I thought "I will be like him when I grow up" but looks like I failed miserably
For Charisma try convincing strangers to help you in something that takes a few minutes, maybe holding some item while you're working with it, something to do with paint?
Pretty nice video, though I must admit that an adventurer probably has learned techniques to climb ropes or walls more effectively, and they are just implicitly used. Like climbing a rope, you usually dangle the cord between your legs to give yourself a foothold to stand/rest upon before pulling yourself higher. Similarly, when climbing a tree without any branches, you would normally grab some rope and pull it tight around the tree to give yourself a handhold for easier climbing. I think for a charisma based video, there are a number of things one can do. Charisma is to do a number of tasks such as deception, intimidation, performance or persuasion and it measures the ability to interact effectively with others. I feel like trying to play an instrument or doing a card trick or something similar could be done, though I have no idea how to convert that into a score. Perhaps having someone (passersby) rate you on 1-20 though that can be very subjective and potentially less interesting. You could also check how easily people are able to be lied to, in how easily they will believe you when telling them something, but it is again difficult to rank that.
I agree about a correct technique making everything easier, but I think most PCs are just random people that don't have that kind of training, unless they pick a specific background or class. It's almost as if game assumes that everyone knows how to do stuff just because. I mean, a Dex based Fighter and a decent Str Wizard shouldn't be able to do the same stuff but somehow they can lol
That's why they calculated their in-game Strength score, That way they'd know if they were expected to live up to the skill level of a commoner or not.
Yes! I love it! Testing the human body to it's full potential!! Although I'm surprised the animal didn't do better . . . No matter, good show! As far as charisma goes there's no way grace doesn't have a 20. But that's ok Bob has the intelligence and the Animal has the strength.
Charisma test. In true Impractical jokers style, you must convince strangers (at the mall?) to do something or agree to something. A few by lying (deception) and a few by Persuasion. Testing Intimidation may not go well
Honestly I like these kinds of tests for realism better than Shadiversity. He's obsessed with recreating real world stuff, in a world where magic and fantasy have always existed, and as such everything would have developed differently. You're just testing the core rules, not the realism of the crafted world.
Something to consider is, quote: "At the DM’s option, climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds requires a successful Strength (Athletics) check" PHB This means that, on surfaces other than easy surfaces (vertical with plenty of places to grab or inclined with enough handholds) will require a strength check. As a DM, I will ask for a check and set 2 DCs. One for climbing at half your speed and one for climbing at 1/4 speed. E.g. climbing your last wall, with negative angles and just a few handholds, DC 25 for half speed, DC 15 for 1/4 speed, less than that is a fail.
Decades ago, our DM's roommate, Jeff, played the character with the highest level, a Dwarven thief. (Lowest exp to next level ratio. Yeah, that long ago.) One Friday night Jeff wasn't playing, we asked why. "Oh, he fell off a mountain." Now for a thief to meet and run some off book scenario wasn't unheard of, any character could set up side time with the DM, so Jeff having access to the DM ~in residence~ gave him a unique advantage. But as I played the cleric (my role in life because cleric was the only class that didn't have a minimum primary stations requirement 1. Yeah, that long ago 2. Yeah, I really rolled that crappy) I said, "Hey, he can play. I'll just heal him." To which we then heard, "No, you can't. Jeff's character didn't fall off a mountain. *Jeff* fell off a mountain." (!!!) Seems he'd gone on a climbing trip and fell a couple hundred feet down a mountainside. Beaten up pretty badly, some sprains, contusions, and battered from head to toe, the rescue team that evac'd him said it was doubly a miracle he survived and had no broken bones. (Years later it was amended that he'd had a hairline fracture that the exams had missed.) Yeah, real world climbing. Real world dice of falling damage. Real world making miraculous saving throws.
For a charisma test... Try a little singing, or reading of poetry without preparation. Also, have your camera ready, and ask slightly mor demanding questions. Like, "do you have sausage?"" Do you have fresh sausage,""? would you fry up some fresh sausage, just for me?"
Climbing Is strongly influenced by Str and Dex, I'm pretty thin (around 66 kg), and one year ago i wasn't able to climb a rope... After 8 month of workouts, I can climb up to 5 meters in 4 seconds. I gues d&d Heroes are just trained
Trove Love the video explorations, but I'm also a Ok with my fantasy being fantasy and playing for fun with a relative sense of realistic expectations, vs. "it's gotta be 100%as close to real life or it's not fun..." Games are games and I'm ok being a fledgling superhero. But I do love that crunch tho! Keep the content coming :) Great work!!
In The Dark Eye (most popular PnP in the German speaking parts of the world), climbing is its own skill, based on Strength, Dexterity and Courage (skill checks in this game can be annoying, but hey…). Based on your tests, making climbing something with a more complex set of rules suddenly makes much more sense…
Climbing ... 1. Steep hills is all about lower body strength and overall conditioning. I thought your test set up was good in that bit. 2. Sheer face wall ...the wood wall you did is all about upper body and core strength. Also, knowing how to direct your weight through your legs and feet INTO the face helps with that challenge. 3. Rope climbing. We did that when I was in grade school in the 1970's. The rope we climbed was as thick as my wrist now. Trying to climb that skinny rope ... I was surprised any of you got off the ground. 4. Tree climbing ... I could never get off the ground with that, but my male cousins could shimmy up a bare trunk like chimpanzees. I suspect it is largely upper body strength and technique 5. Rock climbing ... So, I used to climb when I lived in Wyoming at a place called Veedauwoo. Climbing speed has several variables. Difficulty of the climb, your skill level at rock climbing, type of climb (face vs crack vs offwidth vs overhang, etc), and your familiarity with that particular climb. If you guys were to spend 4 hours a day working the moves on the indoor rout for 6 weeks, you would be able to scale that whole wall in less than 10 seconds because you would be conditioned and you you would not have to think about the moves as you were making them. Watch some videos of speed climbing competitions. I've always thought technical climbing should be it's own specialized skill in DnD that you should put points into to improve, or spend roleplay time working on. Final thought ... Unless you all have more specialuzed training (military, doing obstacle courses, long time technjcal climber, exceptionally gifted physically) the more technical climbing problems are not going to translate well in DnD terms for you. For all intents and purposes, you are level 0 human commoners in that respect. But everyone starts from somewhere. Enlist some other people whe ARE really good at those climbing obstacles and see how fast they scale the sheer vertjcal wall, climb the tree, and race up the climbing wall.
Another great video, but it would be interesting to see how a professional climber does. For Charisma - get a child (that doesn't know you) to try something they don't think they like. (with parents permission of course). Overall, kids will give very honest responses to you. (as a side note in video production - NEVER work with animals or children!) :-) Good luck! (Trove)
It might be interesting if maybe you rolled acrobatics or athletics and that's how many feet you climb. (during something like combat where time is important.). For a character with a +5 acrobatics the average roll would be 15. Though the range would be 6 to 25ft. It would be higher "risk" but a greater reward. It doesn't really take DC of the climb into account. Maybe dis/advantage for hard/easy climbing?
Charisma Score: Play old maid with two cards. Try to keep convincing your opponent to pick the wrong card. You could also play the odd or even game with marbles. Guessing your enemy's marbles/card would be Wisdom, tricking them is Charisma.
Remembering my PE classes in university... If you are a commoner in D&D, I can't even be called one. I can only climb horizontally on the wall, and a few meters at max, with some weird tricks (naked feet, random stuff like chalk or dust - we had no magnesia - to increase friction). Or rappeling, but wisdom check required (I'm afraid of heights). Also, I actually have pretty mixed feelings about using a rope on the hill (though it may be because I had to use the belay system as a part of training; it doesn't work properly on the flat hill and only make things more complicated). For charisma score - it really depends on how you understand D&D charisma in the first place. If it's about how much people like you, you may take some conquest like "get as many likes on some dating site as you can" (if your loved one is OK with it) or so on. But from how charisma saving throws work (at least in my group), it's rather all about the power of your personality; I see no way to measure it at all.
TROVE and anyway, yeah, climbing in DnD its not really that realistic. If I would make changes about that, i would just roll on Strenght (or Dexterity based on situation) (Athletics) and based on the succeed range, assign a climbing speed. each type of wall would have its CD from easier to harder ones. BUT all of that would be a lil bit more realistic (i think) but would make the game too much mechanical. At the end its a game and we should all have fun (based on our personal preferences uwu).
TROVE BUT ALSO: If you can find an interesting enough emotional intelligence test, I would argue that your ability to understand people is going to be a key component in influencing them through CHA.
Charisma check challenge: 1) spark up a nice conversation with a stranger in a public place for a decent amount of time. {Your discretion on what that is.} 2) come up with a series of tasks that are simple and interesting {e.g. a scavenger hunt, a small escape room, ect.} And have random people sign up to help, with the understanding that they will fallow one of you guys to accomplish the task, and then give each participant a small survey asking them to rank/score your leadership ability. [Probably on a scale of 1-5/1-10] 3) try to put on a show with sober karaoke, {I don't know if any of you drink much. And karaoke is often done by people who have had a few drinks from what I've heard.} And see if you can get/keep hype going during your song. This covers a few of the bullet points of charisma, speaking one on one with someone out of nowhere is daunting to some, so that would get a decent base line of comfort with how you are around people. Leadership is a slightly overlooked feat of good Charisma, so leading a small group of five or so people to accomplish something slightly challenging, while not delegating too much, and ignoring everyone while you work on/figure out the problem will test this adequately enough to get a better idea of your score. Then the performance is the standard jump to for charisma. And confidently walking in front of a room full of strangers and not instantly killing the mood is an important part of karaoke. All these should be useful to help determine your charisma score. Because if you do exceptionally well in all of these, you probably have a score 16-18. If you're not good in one or two, but great/decent in the others. you're score is most likely around 10-15. And being not that great at any of these means you probably have a 5-9 charisma. If you want to really push yourselves, try taking two groups through the tasks. one smaller, maybe 4 or 5, and one larger, like around 10 people. And I recommend not making your own tasks either, familiarity with something makes it easier to lead people through it.
I kinda want to say, based on this vid, that the default climbing speed should be ~5ft per round. Assuming all of the proper equipment is used and that the creature doesn't have a climbing speed marked somewhere (being somewhat fair to tabaxi players). We could even go with something like adding STR mod to a 3ft climbing speed, but I'm not sure how the math would work with that yet.
Charisma check! Intimidation: Couple ways you can do this one 1. Stare down, prepare for a fight and face your opponent, hold the stare for a short while then release it, the opponent and third party will rate the level of intimidation. 2. Have a conversation over a table the goal is to make your opponent feel afraid and uneasy. This one will be especially hard because you are all friends and you'll end up just laughing and having a good time but research is research! 3. Who can perform the most convincing Haka (see the All Blacks before any of their rugby games)
I am truely suprised how accurate the values from the books are - and, as always, thank you for sacrificing yourself by testing them... Regarding your tests of CHA: it is the one to which I think it is the most complicated to define a value for... Maybe a series of tests: Performance should be easy, just sing, dance or something like that - maybe take a guitar or another instrument, go to a street corner and make music or something like that (be warned, depending on the city you need a permit for something like that, and in times of corona...). For Deception and Persuasion - the classic "Hütchenspiel" (sry, I don't know the English term for it, it's a classic scam, 3 objects and a small ball placed under one of them and you have to guess under which the ball is ... - deception to make people believe it is under on specific object, persuasion to make them change the object of their choice). Leadership is almost impossible to define, same is true for beauty, and any kind of "inspiring aura" of a person depends on those you want to influence... On the other hand, intimidation should not be tested on CHA at all - let's be honest, if there is some guy robbing me while pointing a shotgun at me (or, more dnd, a crossbow) I absolutely don't care if that guy is looking like a mix of goblin and troll or looking like a model, he will get what he wants because he is armed - and even if he is just a gigantic slab of muscles without the slightest bit of charism, if he is cracking his knuckles on fists the size of my head while telling me "give gold or me be killing you" , there is a high probability I will do what he wants because I am intimidated (read: scared sh*tless)
Having climbed a a rope of around 25 to 30 foot length (in armor I might add), I can say that you used the wrong rope in your vertical climb. You need a much thicker rope, at least 1 inch thick. It is much easier to grasp, and provides more support. Keep up the good work.
I’m new to DnD in my 40s. Your videos are very helpful and help expand how I can approach the game. I end up DMing but this sort of stuff helps me work with the PCs to understand things.
I just DMed the starter set for 5e after not playing the system in a long time (I haven't played it that much in the past either)...was kinda disappointed when I seen how easy it was for a level 1 character (with heavy armor on top of that, which didn't matter) to climb up to the bridge because coming from 3.5 it was 1/4 your normal speed (not 1/2) that required someone having spent points on the climb skill (if they wanted to have any reasonable shot at it) with an armor check penalty on top of that so most the time no one ever tried it. Especially if they were wearing anything bigger than light armor because they most likely didn't spend any points on climb. Only exeption were actual dexterity base characters like rouges (which also don't wear heavy armor most the time). It was a bit immersion breaking in 5e.
