Is it REALLY Worth Switching from Real Amps to Modeling 

I’m 62 and an old-school tube amp/analog pedal guy. I started down the digital road after an on-stage pedalboard failure about 3 years ago. First step: HD500X as pedalboard into front of amp Second step: Modeling preamps and effects into amp’s FX return. Third step: Upgrade to Helix Fourth step: Dropped the tube amp and went FRFR and FOH Fifth step: Moved from FRFR to Powercab to get amp in the room back for smaller venues. It’s been a long learning curve. The Helix has allowed me to experiment with gear that I could have never afforded IRL. It’s much easier to get a great in the room sound with a tube amp, but it’s much harder to translate that to a good sound through the PA live. Most guitar players aim the amp at their knees, and adjust it so that it sounds great to them. It sounds completely different to the front row and the back of the room through the PA. They have the illusion of good sound. A modeling system gets you closer to hearing what the audience is hearing easier. The Helix and Powercab is way more flexible and convenient and I’ll never go back.

This ramble is a pretty good example of why I've still not jumped into modelling. I've got amps, I've got an attenuator for when I want it quiet, I've got plugins available for when I want it silent, I'm also content playing unplugged, I've played long enough I know the amp sounds I like, so why would I need a modeler? And in my situation I don't think I do.

At the moment I no longer do gigs and I sold my entire rig (Victory v40 deluxe with matching cab + full pedalboard). I bought an Adam T5v and a UA Volt and have been using them exclusively with Neural Dsp Tone King. Honestly, I only regret not having made this switch sooner. I have never been so satisfied with my sound. Zero noise, ease of recording, great feel, stereo and most importantly a great sound

Im kinda old school, I like to play with tube amps shaking the floor behind me, recently started playing at churches that require me to plug in DI and man, even after years I’m semi use to it now , something about turning knobs as appose to using a scale of 1-10 I hate it but hey, we gotta evolve to the newer technology, I love amps cus something about live drums and everything the loudness always make it like a concert type

Never beat the sound and feel of a valve amp and cab for me. Tried Modelling for the last couple of years and not for me im afraid, spend too much time tweaking and altering presets etc.... and should be spending more time playing 😁

My dream is to live in a detached house where I can have tube amps and make as much noise as I want. My reality is plugins through headphones because of neighbours and not wanting to be evicted. Plus plugins are a lot cheaper and they are improving.

I've been asking this same question. I don't gig, so why not set everything up with software? Inertia I guess.

As bedroom player I’m go to modeling 99% of time, the 1% is play occasionally with friends and a fender deluxe

I gig in a loud 3 piece power trio, I use a modeller, but I don't use IRs I go into a tube amps FX return and on to a 4x12, it sounds like whatever amp the modeller is modelling but is loud and has all the feel of a real amp because I'm not playing through an IR. In the studio or at home at low volume modellers and IRs all day. IRs don't work at old school stage volume.

If I was purely a bedroom or studio player, then I would go 100% modeling. But I play small shows and rehearse in a basement, so tube amp and pedals is still the best option for me

It's seems all modelling gear needs some sort of high or low cut. Not sure why the manufacturer doesn't just have that done by default.

If you require/desire a silent (or quiet) stage, then amps are a no-go and IEMs (instead of wedges) are going to be a thing. At that point, a real amp is pointless because you can't hear it (directly) any way. And if you do have an amp or FRFR, it's got to be so quiet that the audience can't hear it (not that they care about your gear or tone anyway). I'm done carrying all that crap. My PA system is compact and portable and my entire guitar "rig" is one guitar and a Helix LT in a backpack direct into the PA. Zero stage volume. NO ONE at a bar gig cares what you sound like as long as it doesn't suck and you're not too loud. They do care about overall volume and if they can hear the vocals over the band. Stop chasing tone/gear and just worry about playing well and putting on a show.

I bought a Quad Cortex after a year with the Headrush MX5. Love the portability of modellers and our band puts them through the PA - and on stage via the wedge monitors. Don’t see the point of a further FRFR speaker - reduces mobility and you might as well just take an amp. I’m going to gigs on public transport and saving cash. And you can have a beer. Keeping gear light and portable in my book seduces my wallet. Great videos.

Tried using digital stuff live back when it was really becoming a huge thing (early 2010s) and I HATED it. You lose so much of a connection to what you're doing. You have to have some air moving around you. The argument consistently, is "oh the audience wont notice" and I say this: No they wont, but I do, and part of the reason I do what I do is because I like it and I want to feel it. It's the same reason why some bands still make full-length albums and press vinyl--not all of it is about making a ton of money and shifting units. Many of us are still creating music because of the craft itself---getting to hear what we made play-out in a larger room than our bedroom, and getting to see OTHER PEOPLE interact with it, is ultra-rewarding to us.

I'm way down the road into digital, I have a hybrid rig that I've connected my HX Stomp to coming through an oversized 2x12 cab I put together for that "in the room" feel when I want that, but otherwise I love my Helix hooked up through a 1500W PA speaker and studio monitors and it's the brains of my operation and I couldn't be happier.

If a friend wanted to learn electric guitar and asked what to get, I would send them to a tele, a tuner and an Iridium (or similar) with headphones. Only add more gear if you have a legit NEED.

i tried using modeling live (Boss GT-1000 and headrush 12in FRFR) in a steady working cover band. It worked beautifully. Sounded great. Versatile. No tap dancing. But you dont know what your missing until you play with an amp. Modeling SOUNDS good but DOES NOT feel as satisfying to me as a real amp, in terms of dynamics and tone. I can also sense the latency. If you know you know, and if you don't then modeling will suit you fine. Also, modeling is easier to forgive if your playing mostly overdrive and distortion genres. Another thing, with a modeler, FRFR speaker(s), and expression pedals, youre basically carrying the same amount of shit to your rig. One more thought- I have a bad back so i play a blues JR, the lightest tube amp i could find. I have 11 pedals on my pedal board that make that blues JR sound like whatever i want. Todays PA's with floor monitors will allow you to play a rehearsal or gig with a fckng blackstar fly if needed.My blues Jr has been holding up gig after gig. When i bought it i was worried because of the less than favorable reviews it gets from Psionic Audio (I happen to think the Psionic Audio dude really knows what hes talking about), but i figured id see for myself. Well, i never run volume or master over 4 because i mic it, have it close to me, and have it in the floor monitor in front of me. So far really fckng good. I get compliments on my tone all the time.

Bro your intro's are better than 99% of guitar based instrumental music out there.

TBH, I bought a Marshall Code 100, very nice, bought Mooer GE300, very nice, but nothing, and I mean nothing, comes close to a Fractal unit. I am currently saving up for one.

The big problem is people make their patches on headphones, then plug into an FRFR or something and then think something's wrong. The thing to do is plug into that speaker and THEN build the preset. It might require different EQ etc. to make it sound like want, but so be it, just do it. Same way that on some Marshalls, you might have the presence up high, on some it might be off and some the bass might be off.

The modellers and the tech has arrived! 5 or so years ago low end modelers were just coming on market. Here is a really low cost set up that will sound like a high end modeler. Get the IR-2 for your amp and cabs and then get the Line6 Pod Express to in the FX loop. The pod has all your basic FX, plus boost pedals and you can stack the amps from both units. The Pod has your tuner and a built in looper plus additional EQ. The other cool thing is the Boss you set the volume per channel. With the Pod in the FX loop you can use the master volume thumb wheel to control the whole set up. I just got my IR-2 yesturday and that thing with the Pod Express is just a kick ass low budget rig that will blow higher end modelers away and do it without endless fiddling aorund with combersome software interfaces.

If you love real amps, you love real amps. And I love real amps.

With my tube amp and pedals I feel like Vai Satriani YJM, playing through modeler and monitor makes me feel like a RU-vidr wannabe.

The bang for buck of my ToneX, Zoom MS-70cdr, & a used Fender solid state STEREO amp like the Princeton Chorus or Ultimate Chorus, is insane. About $500 total for a sick stereo rig, the Princeton is perfect at home or small gig & the Ultimate Chorus is LOUD like a Twin.

Nope... just to get the same quality as our guitar tube amps... I have to use HIFI DACs which cost US$10,000 and upwards. Not to mention, I have to use Meyer Sound PA which cost another US$15,000.

Do what I've been experimenting with. I currently have 2 rigs, both with an "analog zero-watt pedal amp": One is an Ethos Clean Fusion Deluxe, and I run a Fractal FX8 in 4cm. The other is a DSM & Humboldt Simplifier MKII with an HX FX in 4cm. Both are great rigs. I still have my pedal collection, and I'll occasionally hook them up. Then I realize I can get most of the way there with an all-in-one effects solution. Overall, the effects are much less important than my playing.

I can’t find anything that sounds better than the neural dsp soldano plugins. They’re soooo good

Yes. It's so worth it. I've been loading my heavy Marshall amp + Cab every week in the last 35 years. No....No more having a Real Amp. Today's modelers are the way to go - especially, these modelers are even better than my real amps. Lol. Man...having 350 amps in my FM9 and ton FXs and Cabs???? It's a No brainer.

I have been thru a handful of them - Boss GT100, Helix (floor), Helix HX, PodGo and now the Fender ToneMaster Pro, which has been by far the easiest for me to get a good sound. But at show time, as much as I'd like the ease and convenience of taking the TMP, I am still inclined to take my Mesa Fillmore 25 or Friedman Runt 20 and a pedalboard. Its all there and I have many years of familiarity.

I'd love John to check out the Two Notes Opus. Or anyone else here with experience? I stopped doing gigs at the beginning of Covid after an average of 4 nights a week for 25 years. Once gigs were available again, I sort felt like having a break. My final setup was a HX Effects through a Two Rock studio 35 watt. Now I wish I had an amp modeller for studio use. To your point in this video John. I'm thinking the Two Note Opus may be my cheapest and best way in. It also allows me to place it between my amp and speaker, if I like, as a way of auditioning sounds through an authentic "guitar speaker cab" rather than just studio monitors etc. Thoughts anyone??

What do you think sounds better and gives the better “amp in the room” feel between the Line 6 modelers (Helix, Pod Go) paired with the Fender FR12 vs. the Boss Katana Artist Mkii? Not focused on features or ease of use here… just sound/feeling.

Hi John, Thanks for the timely video. I have an FM3 and FM9. I have a Friedman WW20 and 1x12 marshall cab I play out with using the FM3 in the loop for effects. In my music room the tones out of my Fractals are imo incredible, I have tried the Katana 100w into the power amp in but it doesnt cut well. Have you ever been able to duplicate the tone of a Fractal into small studio speakers, in a live environment? Perhaps I should try a Power amp into 1x12? Thank you for all of the great videos!

Why wouldn't I just use a real amp and cab? The reason is clear -- output volume vs. tone. If the tube amp is 15 watts, it won't have enough clean headroom. If it is 30-50 watts, it might be too loud to get the tone you really want. With a modeler, you can get to any output level without significant;y affecting your tone. This is why I initially got into modeling. And of course there is the flexibility of having access to several different amp sounds without carrying several different amps. I won't bring up fx because even it I was using a tube amp, I would still use my HX Stomp for the fx. For actual amplification of my modeler, I use a real guitar cab with a power amp. Best bang for the buck since I already had the cabinet. But if I didn't have that setup, I would likely get the Fender FR12 - but I do wonder about the rattling that some have reported.

Both kinds are amps, calling a traditional amp a 'real' amp is disingenuous. They both help provide the same outcomes just taking different routes.

Maybe I'm missing something or don't quite understand but why not simply buy a digital modelling combo? Speaker, amp and digital modelling in one. You can always plug an IR box or various pedals into it later if you want some more effects. Just a thought.

I'm a cover band guitarist & am at the crossroads of whether to get into modeling rigs like the Helix or stick with analog gear. I'm ready to retire my vintage Deluxe Reverb from gigging, as some venues have specific "no amp" policies, and the band has been moving to a "silent stage" setup. I have struggled in the past with the multi-effects units like the Boss GT units and even with my Boss Katana practice amp there is some struggling with patch building. The Helix seems like a great unit, but I have never been able to try one out, so I am very apprehensive about investing in this gear. I'm just too used to the simplicity of my analog gear.

It boils down to this for me, when it comes to tone, sound, or tube amp feel, "perfection" isn't perfect. The exquisite tones that you can sculpt from a digital system may well arguably be better, but they are not as real, and people, ( yes, even "civilians" who don't play) can sense this. If you go back 50 years, a clean hi fi sound was aimed at, and the actual inefficiency of these amps is the main reason we all love them. The finest Persian rugs have a flawed loop in at least one part, just to illustrate the futility of chasing perfection. This also occurs in the finest Japanese landscape painting, and in the garden designs, a flaw makes the conscious statement that although humans have a spark of the divine, it is pretentious to strive or claim to have achieved perfection. The small failures of light ( as in the Mona Lisa's smile) allow the observer to fill the blank in their own imagination, thereby making the experience more involving for the punter. If this seems too preposterous or pompous, I'm sure the average listener has ,somewhere, a subconscious sense of what's real.. particularly live. I used to play through a Marshall stack, and it sounded best in the open air, being made not to require miking up, it would sound best at about fifteen feet in front of the top quad, which is whete the sound would start to spread sideways after staying in a straightt line from the amp. There was no need to "mic it up" and it sounded as good to the audience as it did onstage, because only the vocals, and maybe a couple of mic's on the drum kit were all that was needed to make a great sound. I watched one day as a band with guitar, bass, drums, keyboards, and a jumping ftont man singer spent four hours setting up a large PA with W bins and monitor wedges. They still sounded awful come evening, whereas the support act ( a much better band set up as a guitar/ guitar, bass drums, and one lead singer ( also lead guitarist) using nothing but their backline amps and a hone made PA that amplified only the vocals ( two 1x12 speakers, powered by a fifty watt old tube amp) and with no fold-back. From their experience and understanding of the sound field, they sounded as crisp as a vinyl LP, mixed to perfection, because they didn't out-source responsibility for their sound to someone else with cloth ears and too much equipment. They sounded better, because they listened and had developed a sense of what they sounded like out front by walking out with a long lead snd simply listening! Develope your ears and no mic'ing up is needed, unless you're on a large outdoor stage, in which case the old school powerfull tube amps did what they did well. I heard Mick Taylor with the Rolling stones, and his sound through a big Marshall rung out beautifully despite the inept playing and vocals of the other drunken stumbling players and vocalists in the band who needed sll the help they could get from a remote mixer. Reality is always preferable live, but I understand if you're doing line-level stuff for recording or RU-vid'ing digital simulations are more convenient for pretty much the same result. The problem is, by having all these equipment aids we are breeding a generation or three of tone deaf- lazy performers who never will develop a skill if someone else does it for them... how then are we to experience the wonders of individuality in music if we are all leve

This is another rose colored speculum down the rabbit hall. LOL I love love both modelers and amps, and also running two ir three amps at the same time. Right now using a Nux mg30 stereo into the rhe returns of two 2 x 12 amps for my A side, and a Katana 2 x 12 on the B side,and mixing the sounds, having a great time....and man, i just want more! More modelers, more tube amps, more solid state amps. I'm in bad shape. LOL

I use a bog standard Marshall valvestate 8080 for clean tones, and pedals for everything else. I have no issues with it for now, but sometimes would like a Vox or a Fender clean sound etc. A modeller would help here then?

I am not paying $3000 for an amp that has 2 channels and maybe spring reverb. You can get an unbelievable rig for that.

As a purely home player, I'm now all digital desktop modelling , mostly Neural DSP stuff. It works for me as a casual user with limited space and playing a wide variety of styles on gear that i would never be able to justify or have space for in the real world. The ability to change amps, cabs, mics in an instant is just so simple and quick.

If it's a huge stage, where you'd normally mic the cab, and the audience doesn't hear the cab anyway, then modeller wins over a real amp. If it's a small stage where people can directly hear the cab, and you need a lot of effects, then a floor modeller + tiny power amp + A real cab wins over a real amp. For home, a modeller wins too. The only scenario where a real amp is better is when it's a small stage, and the cab can be heard directly, and you connect to it directly without any pedalboards.

The power amp you use makes a massive difference. If you're using a class D thing vs an old school AB amp with a big transformer its going to sound totally different and react totally different. The modeller only takes care of the sound to a virtual microphone. Moving real air is a moving real air concern and needs at least half your attention.

That high cut advice for live playing sounds brilliant! Makes a lot of sense, and I will check that out

Modeling is fantastic….until you want to just sit and play or add a pedal or change settings. So yeah, it’s great as long as I don’t have to menu dive 😂

Sound guys always appreciate it when you run direct... they have better control and thus makes the band sound better. Why are guitarists always so self interested in the "feel". Just listen to the sound engineers and get in ears.

My 1965 Twin Reverb is literally immortal, so the answer is no.

Watch this channel if you want to be neurotic as Cordy, "I think."

I went from a Mark V to Tonex and love it. If I were to go live, I'd probably get a real power amp like a Mesa Fifty/Fifty and put it in a real cab with a V30, then turn off the cab IR. Seems like a win/win.

How does the Fender FR go compared to studio monitors??

I’ve been using a variety of computer based modellers and some are very very good ( Scuffham S-Gear ). I think the big disconnect with modellers is that they MUST model the speakers and cabinet and microphone equally well in order to replicate the full signal chain. this is fine for recording or PA live sound, but falls short of the rush you get playing out the real deal that has the signal interacting with all of the parts BEFORE the microphone. I like to feel the sound as much as I like to hear it.

That intro song was wonderful.

Is that a Dharma Initiative hoodie? Nice!

61yr old (techie type) guitarist here. I jumped on the Amp sim band wagon waaaaay back (in the Nineties). For clean sounds...fair enough, they are good enough (& super convenient as well as providing great bang for the buck). But for that Crunch type/Overdriven sound...I've always felt they were not quite there. Because of this, a couple of months ago, I bought a Marshall DSL15 (so gone full circle) ...the difference between a real marshall valve amp & a sim ...is night and day. The chug & warmth of a Marshall Amp is just something that cannot be matched.

Just got into modelling, the main advantages seem to be recording and being able to play quietly with a very similar tone. It just wasn't possible with tube amps to get the sound I like without a relatively high volume, so modelling has almost resolved this for me. That said, what doesn't work is the spread of sound. I used to use two combos 2 x 12 each plus a smaller 1x 10 combo all linked together, my modeller with an FRFR 12 doesn't come close to that spread of sound. Have considered 2 x FRFR but as said in the video, eventually you're chasing down a sound you already had with your tube amps but using a modeller instead and gaining very little in terms of convenience. On that point, convenience was never a driver but inevitably it is easier to plug a modeller into an FRFR and have everything contained and the FRFR is lighter than a valve amp. But that was never the motivation for me but is a plus point if you're comparing the two systems. Right now I'd say I'm still thinking a hybrid set up might be my ideal - using real amps and modelling. For me the effects part of the modeller system are all absolutely fine and I see no real benefit of having a lot of pedals on a board when I can have them all in one unit with one power cable. Plus more versions of effects than I could sensibly purchase individually. But I'm sure there are people who are particular about effects and need a certain sound. I've never been that worried and only ever had a set of BOSS pedals (chorus, drive, delay compressor) variants of which I now use on my modeller. In summary, the two systems aren't the same but the differences are not massive either. Live I'm "almost" happier playing at lower volume with the modeller but still miss the spread of sound. Not tried the modeller through a PA as we use a vocal only PA system. Recording, home practising - I can't see how I'd go back to an amp for either of these. Convenience is marginally better as I've said.

Did you mean to say Speculum? 😂

If you go to the FRFR PA route go BIG! 15 inch woofer is the minimum dont waste your money on anything smaller. I highly recommend the Alto Profesional TX315. This cab is cheap has plenty of balls and gives you that lower end that smaller cabs just cant.

Nice Dharma hoodie

Short answer: yes

New topic please

I have and use both but I have to admit that my amps with my pedalboards don't sound as good as my amps with my modelers. I guess, for me, the upgrade would probably go with a PA system like a QSC K10.2 or K12.2. I got rid of my tube amps ten years ago and have been running my modelers with Quilter amps and I'll never go back to tube amps or pedalboards. The only reason I don't sell my pedals is I don't want to deal with hassle of pulling the pedals off the boards and having to box them up and ship them. I think If I decide to do that I'll probably just go over to Guitar Center and trade it all in on the PA system.

I really appreciate your insights on these things. I have a 70's era Fender Princeton Reverb that I NEVER use (bought it new back in the day -yeah I'm old😃) All that to say, I use a Mooer 007 (small combo-ish) preamp into a Mooer Radar (along with pedal delays etc. I get great tones. I just got an HX STOMP XL and while it may sound better, by the time I dial in an amp sound I like, there's not much DSP left for complex FX. When I actually start using it live, the benefit will be presets. So that ramble is to say for me, I hate dragging around an amp. If I want my sound to be heard through a PA in the mix, I don't care what it sounds like to me. What's important is what the audience hears.

My suggestion with modelers is to not overspend. I feel like with tube amps you really get a lot more if you spend 2000$ instead of 500$. Better sound, better speakers, more options, quality, warranty, longevity etc. My experience with modelers is that by spending 300-500$ you get ~90% of what you get when you spend 2000$. Especially when it comes to options and sound quality. Even some 300$ unit like the valeton gp200 sounds really great and gives you tons of options. So here's my tip: - Buy the one that gives you a complete package (if you need an expression pedal, get one with an expression pedal) so you don't need to carry extra stuff. Again, price is not as important as features. - Check out the software that comes with it. You will probably spend just as much time with it as with the unit itself. - Learn how to use the tone knob on the guitar or amp-sim/global EQ on the unit to get "your sound" in any situation (like with headphones, with some random monitor on a stage, through studio monitors etc) - Travel light :)

All the things i.e. Three worlds - Good sounding amps, pedals, and modellers. And combinations thereof ... Lifetime accumulation of 'Stuff' ... 🧙‍♂ 3 Guitar Amps - Fender Bassbreaker 15 - with TwoNotes Captor X Blackstar 1H Laney IRT Studio 15 - has it's own 1Watt mode 72 Pedals - (Bass and Guitar purposes) at last count .. 7 Multis - (Bass and Guitar purposes) Other stuff either on the bench OR near the door ...

I have both. I NEVER use modeling unless I have to. It’s ok/good enough but it never feels the same. It’s like hearing Artificial intelligence singing. It’s good, just not as good as the real thing.

What is bfr?

Hi John! Thanks for your never ending inputs on modeling stuff and on the struggle to achieve a decent tone! Let me throw in yet another variable: What about a hybrid setup? E.g. REVV D20, G20, D25, D40 etc...? (see Keith, 5WW) I don't know... Is it a solution? Or cheating? ;) Keep up the good work!

Actually $549 fr12 and $700 Hx stomp plus tax will put you over $1300 in the states . I agree on the headrush speaker. Pretty good on lower volume then it get boomy

When it comes to how good Modelers can sound compared to real Amps, just take a listen to Matteo Mancuso, who uses Helix/Line 6 Modelers. Does anyone think his tone is rubbish? Not me. Modelers probably require more technical sophistication and dedication to get a good sound because they provide more access to numerous Parameters and more Amp Models right out of the box. The HX Stomp has over 70 Amp Models. If you went to a Music Store, purchased 70 physical Amps and brought them all home at once, you'd probably be overwhelmed trying to dial them all in. Better too stick with one Model emulatiion and learn how to dial it in really well. That will make everything else easier in my opinion. YMMV

Lately to my great surprise I get a great sounding and super simple set up using a POD Express running into a Bose S1 Pro Plus. Both are battery powered. The Bose MUST be set to FRFR in the ToneMatch or the POD will sound too tinny. Total weight for Bose and effects: 15 lbs. Total cost: $750. Set up time: literally about 4 minutes

I’d be interested to know a bit more about your experience with a Laney - I’ve been thinking of ditching my guitar cab + SD Powerstage and just going straight into a Laney FR212 or the Fender FR-12… interested in keeping the 2x12 experience but having more speaker/IR options than my current cab (V30s)

Back when I was a kid, none of this technology existed-no cell phones, no computers, It was straight plug into an amp, and if you could afford it you could buy a pedal or two. These days kids, and adults, have it made with being able to create great sounds at a fraction of the price of buying expensive gear. I use a mishmash of the two, just because I bought analog stuff years ago and hate to part with it. No matter what you use, modern or 'Old School' or 'Skool'..what matters is that you can be creative using both tools. But in this day and age, with all the advances of digital, being able to record at home on unlimited tracks as compared to facing two Radio Shack cassette players with a tiny built in condenser mic..and recording one part to one player..and then play that back and try to record the other part on the other player..YOU GUYS HAVE IT MADE! Use it, enjoy it, create, learn, and share with others.

I'm happy with my tube amp + pedalboard and digital preamp with IRs (Mooer X2) if I need that JP2C or EVH5150 crazy high-gain sound or PA output. If needed this pedalboard can be connected to poweramp and cab instead. It's sturdy, cheap and effective. And I can step on it or spill some beer without worrying too much 😊

I play through a Roland-JC22 and a milkman the amp 50, Best of both worlds. I have a separate cab for the Milkman. I have a boss me90 and use tone studio and a pedalboard. Most of us are infected with the gear sickness. It's never-ending

My current rig is Swart AST MkII running into a Tone King Ironman mini. The line out from The Ironman goes into an Eventide Mod Factor, Walrus D1 v2 and reverb. The stereo outs go right to my interface. My amp, though I love it, lacks an effects loop. To run this live and get time based effects into my cab, I would need a small U-Haul trailer to take it anywhere. Looks like the FR12 and some modeler yet to be determined is the answer or a Quilter Tone Block and my existing cab and a modeler. I’ve been thinking about this for 3 years. For me, it’s not so much amp in the room but the ability to get three levels of gain out of my amp before I step on an overdrive. All of the plug-ins I’ve tried lack this dynamic response. Which modeler can get this feel? That’s really what holds me back from the transition/

If you aren't playing live and only recording and playing at home real amps are no longer needed. I used to mic up a half stack nicely cranked for home recording. I now use a Boss IR-200 or GT1000 and maybe soon a Line6 hx stomp xl. For playing now amps are nice, but just playing through the pa is now easily possible...

For what you'd want to get it depends on if someone already has an amp with an effects loop. If they do then they can just run the modeler into the effects return rather than getting a separate powered cab which costs about as much as a HX Stomp. I have an ACS1 and might pickup something like a FM3 down the road but mostly for playing through amp sims if I don't want to be in front of a computer.

Got the Boss gx-100, thought "I need FRFR speakers" and got them. Hated them, shortchanged the capabilities of the gx-100. Got the best results 4 cable method through 20w tube amp connected to my old Bandmaster 2x12 cabinet. Unbelievable difference, and I would challenge anyone to put on a blindfold and tell the difference in my modeled pre-amps. Love the gx-100 now, use it live on stage all the time and wouldn't think of going back to carrying heads again.

I've been using modeling since the original POD for home recording and used the Flextone II live in the early days, then the Vetta II, then the Spider Valve - all with a 4 x 12 cab. I moved to a regular tube amp eventually, but have been looking to downsize recently. I picked up a Helix floor and have enjoyed it, but did not like anything in terms of FRFR. It's fine at home/room volumes, but at live volume I detest it. What I ended up with was a 1 x 12 tube combo amp (a Badlander or Mark VII in this case) coupled with my Helix Floor in 4-cable method. In instances where I want to use the combo's preamp, it's there for me and works great. Then, whenever I want to use a Helix model, I bypass the physical pre-amp and use modeling. If I want, I can even blend the physical preamp with a Helix preamp, which has been cool. It's has proven to be quite versatile.

Over the course of 22 and 23 I was playing guitar in a local 8-piece band, which included three vocalists, brass section and another guitar. So as there was limited room in both physical stage space and frequency space, I ventured into the modelling world (HX Stomp) using stage monitors and then in-ears to monitor. I’ve been using software modelling for years in studio recording so was well used to using that type of tech and was used to monitoring from studio monitors or headphones, so there was no hangups about it not sound like the real thing, etc. I found it an excellent alternative that well and above met my needs and kept the vocalists happy 😉 (and I fully agree with the advice about being quite aggressive with the low pass filters, something I picked up from yours and Scott Uhl’s channels - it helps to take away a certain high frequency ”digitalness” that can occur with modellers). Due to unfortunate circumstances, I’ve had to switch to bass in that band midway last year and my guitar playing is currently at home and interestingly I’ve migrated back to using my tube amps (I’m a wet/dry fan) and peddle board. There’s definitely something about playing through amps that has a magic of his own. I don’t think it’s better than modelling, it’s just its own thing. It’s very hard to put my finger on it. I would happily go back to using modelling if there was a particular amp sound that was needed or for some practical reasons - for example rocking up to a jam with the Stomp and a small speaker (I have the Bose S1 that works well with the stomp for such locations) but all the same I am longing to play in a stripped down band with the tube amps crancked up - there’s definitely something about it.

I love these videos, I used to be an amp and pedal board guy. Then went to just an amp. Always feel like I'm missing something by not having a modeller... but by having a modeller would I miss a tube amp. 🤷‍♂️ love your playing.

It certainly doesn't eliminate the "gear" problem...but it does cut down on problematic maintenance issues like bad tubes, old circuitry, complex wiring if using multiple pedals. I still carry two 2x12 speaker cabs in addition to my pedal board, but no more combo or head.

I mean, I found it to prove it’s worth the first time I woke up at 3am wanting to play and could, without disturbing anyone. That’s a win worth the price, be it a little Zoom multistomp all the way up to all the Helix family and QC

Quad Cortex and Fender FRFR ia probably fine. Is it worth switching to a Katana though?

The cost of putting together an analog rig, if you're going to be using a bunch of pedals, quickly out paces a modeller. I don't own either at the moment. Even something like an IR-x or ToneX and add a few boutique pedals and a strymon or two and suddenly you're way up there in price. If you want to go with a nice tube amp, well now you're well beyond the cost of a modeller and speaker cab.

Got a QC. No regrets. And I don't have an itch to get another modeler. The only pedal I want is an expression pedal.

A beautiful intro! The issue most people are facing is “real estate”. We all live on top of each other. I can’t use an amp on 1. So a tube amp is a waste. The only time I get to crank it up, is when it sounds like my neighbour is having a Rave party. “DJ Dizzy Jack is in da house”, and the house music is pumping “doof, doof, doofff”. My bed is bouncing around the bedroom. They get the idea and turn it down rather quickly.

I bought the Behringer FRFR speaker (way too loud for the house but thankfully you can turn it right down) and use it with my Nux Trident and Academy to full around with modelling. Fairly inexpensive to dip your toe into all this. I'll see if I sell my amps in 6 months after using this

There is so much stuff used. Always new stuff sold and less and less guitar players. We are going to be swamped in stuff in no time. All the tube amp guys are getting old or dying... and the modeling is getting very cheap and as good.

Controversial take: no matter how good your amp sounds in your house playing by yourself, it will never sound as good in a live setting with a band. No matter how good it is mic’ed live, you’re always at the mercy of the sound guy, his gear and how your amp reacts in the room. I feel that modelers not only present the most consistent approximation of ones sound to the sound guy but to the audience who can’t tell the difference between that and the real amp, it ultimately doesn’t matter what you’re using as long as you are consistent. However, tube amps have often given me problems live so i will always use a modeler live and for recording and an amp at home for personal playing 😎.

Personally i didnt like the fender fr at all. I use frfr all the time and while it looks great, i think the fender tonally is the not very good. Makes things sound like a line 6 spider. They would have been better off putting a guitar speaker and no tweeter in it. A 1x12, and a duncan power stage is much more real sounding. But i even think the headrush frfr is better than the fender.

I’m switching back to my combo. I picked up a zoom ms50 after watching your review and hoping it will scratch an itch for pedals. Maybe a future video on a practice rig with pedals and how you would create tones in a cover band. Thanx

Just my humble opinion. Having used modeling for many years now and gone amp-less. The amp models are great. But there is a lot more that can be done to improve the digital snapshot of cab/mics or IRs. Hence the warm rich sound to be had with even an FRFR. Your ears can hear the 3D impact of sound moving thru air and a speaker and/or a mic. Big difference that is very hard to replicate just purely in the digital realm.

Cool topic. Thanks. As the front guy who gets to bring the PA and play the guitar (electric and acoustic, and harp) I'd sure like to find a _simple_ amp/pedal to play through the PA. The Joys AMS is the perfect idea but the tone is not quite there but I've been temped to play it live. The Dream 65 looks ok but has a bit too many odd things about it. I'm waiting for Boss to come out with an IR-2 with its tech dedicated to sounding better at just one amp. Thought about trying the Iridium.

If you're using the FR-12 with a modeler, do you keep the modeler's cabs or IRs enabled ?

I'm a big modeler user. Started with an Axe Fx ultra in 2012. The only con for me is feeling like playing guitar has to happen in front of the computer. It's nice to go sit in the living room and play through an amp and have a totally analogue experience. But unless you play big time gigs or have space and the ability to play your amps loud, it's making less and less sense to invest in a large and loud tube amp. I also only play solo coffee shop and bar gigs so it doesn't make sense to haul a bunch of gear around. Although I'm a fractal guy, your videos inspired me to pick up an HX Stomp which I think is super handy. Love the channel John.

I'm primarily in the modelling world, about to invest in an active monitor, and the Dexter 15-watt head you use is a huge inspiration to round out the immediate versatility of my rig

hey John when you take a tubeamp To a gig Do you use the overdrives that are in the helix Or fractal or do you take Overdrive pedals with you?.

Friedman Little Sister with matching cab with 12” Celestion Creamback sounds pretty fantastic with Hotone Ampero II Stage running thru the Little Sister’s effect loop.

It's really quite subjective I think....and it truly is dependent on what you want and or need. I currently have no need for an amp and go directly into my interface and into Logic Pro. Thing is if you want or need an amp, then you need a good one for that's far more important than an expensive guitar and an amp is where the sound comes from and if you have the money and space for an amp then by all means go for it. Today however modelers are so good that it's virtually impossible to tell the difference in a recording.