Is Italian meringue COOKED? How I experimented to find out... 

I just love the scientific approuch!

Pasteurization is a factor of temperature AND time, which was demonstrated by the table shown in the video. You don't have to reach 160 degrees to kill salmonella, that's just considered a safe temperature because you only have to hit it for a few seconds. At lower temperatures you just need to maintain the temperature longer to kill bacteria. It would be interesting to look back through the video recording paying attention to how long the meringue stayed above specific temperatures to see if pasteurization was achieved.

I just made a batch of Italian Meringue Buttercream. I used a metal bowl & cooked my sugar syrup up to 248 Degrees F. I took the temperature right after all the syrup was incorporated into the meringue in the center of the meringue & the temperature was 168 degrees F for 3 seconds before very slowly dropping to 165 degrees. It held above 165 degrees F for at least 8 seconds.

Every single time I've tried to make meringue using carton egg whites, it has NEVER gotten to stiff peaks. I've tried using different brands, too. People in the macaron community have said it works, but I just can't get it to work. I would love to see an experiment on it. It would be so much easier than cracking fresh eggs every time, and having way too many egg yolks leftover.

Ok, so I have a part 2 for you! I made some interesting discoveries of my own yesterday, after two consecutive batches of Italian meringue I was making for a Baked Alaska totally deflated after resting them an hour. I re-watched this video afterwards, and some of your findings stood out to me this time, in light of some observations I just had - I think I'm on to something, and I think you're just the person to test my new theory! I made the Italian meringue the same way I always do for Italian Buttercream - my go-to frosting. I felt sure I could easily make an Italian meringue for this Baked Alaska (my first ever attempt at making one of those), as I've made one so many times before when making Italian Buttercream. But I've never tried using just the Italian meringue for anything before, so I've never allowed the meringue to rest for any length of time. I've always used the same method you use in this video to make my Italian meringue - 4 egg whites, cream of tarter and salt. Beat until foamy, then slowly add 1/3 cup of sugar while I cook a sugar syrup containing 1 cup of sugar to the soft ball stage (235 is what I normally go with). I haven't splurged on a stand mixer yet (probably will soon, though), and it did take me a while to get it right using a hand mixer. I've adjusted my process with practice, and I've based my success mostly on the consistency of the final Italian Buttercream. Some people hardly beat the egg whites before adding the hot sugar syrup, but this has never worked for me. I think it might work if I had a stand mixer, but I know some people with stand mixers still do it the way you and I do, beating the meringue to about medium-stiff peaks before adding the syrup. At least when using a hand mixer, I've found that the meringue doesn't develop much further once I add the syrup. This is also why I always make Italian instead of Swiss buttercream - I've tried Swiss a couple of times, but I'm unable to get the egg whites to whip up stiff after heating them with the sugar. Again, I don't have a stand mixer. What stood out to me re-watching your video last night were a couple of your incidental findings, rather than the temperature issue. You noted that the meringue came out much stiffer and fluffier using a stand mixer vs a hand mixer, and you noted that the hand-mixed Italian meringue, while it was rather thin, didn't weep syrup like the much fluffier stand mixer version. My first two batches of Italian meringue pretty much did what your hand-mixed version did, after resting for only an hour or so. I made the first one just like always, but then when I was getting ready to put it in a piping bag, and quick stir caused it to promptly collapse and become soup. I immediately thought that maybe my normal process wasn't actually right, so I decided to make an adjustment. Some people recommend cooking the syrup to the hard ball stage (250), so that's what I tried next. I also decided to take the meringue up to stiff peaks, trying to go just short of that point where it balls up and loses elasticity. Both changes should have yielded a stiffer meringue, and the result was slightly stiffer. I let the meringue rest at room temperature for about an hour, and then proceeded to try to pipe it onto my Baked Alaska. It held up better than the first batch, and initially seemed like it would be ok. But the more I manipulated it to get it into the piping bag, the softer it was getting. I thought it was still going to be stiff enough for my Baked Alaska, so I proceeded to pipe it on, but squeezing it through the piping tip made it even softer, and it all started to run off my ice cream. Frustrated, I decided to make a third batch. I'd spent far more time on this already than I'd planned, and was down to my last 4 eggs, so I really deliberated for a while about how I'd adjust the recipe for this final attempt. Italian meringue is supposed to be really stiff and stable, so why was mine not holding up? If I whipped the meringue any further, It would get to that overly-dense stage, so I didn't think I should beat it any longer. I was definitely going to cook the syrup to 250 and beat to full stiff peaks before adding it, as those two measures had yielded some improvement over my first batch. The problem was mostly stability - both meringues seemed pretty good initially, but they collapsed after resting for a pretty short time. Then it occurred to me - I've seen a couple people on RU-vid don't add any granulated sugar to their egg whites - they put all of it in as a syrup. I reasoned that if I did it that way, then all of the sugar I was adding would set into candy, whereas the way I'd been doing it, only 75% of the sugar was heated. I reasoned that this might possibly yield a stiffer Italian meringue. It also occurred to me that if 100% of the sugar had been heated, I'd be introducing 25% more thermal energy into the mixed. So if cooking the egg whites was a factor in stabilizing Italian meringue, that might help by getting my mix to a higher temperature. Guess what? That was totally the trick! I beat the egg whites all the way to stiff peaks with no sugar - which I get is a little more risky because you can over-beat. Then I poured in my sugar syrup - the same total amount of sugar, still cooked to 250. Doing it this way, the meringue actually became stiffer as it cooled than the egg whites were before they got the syrup - that's never happened when doing it my usual way and using a hand mixer. After sitting for an hour at room temp, the meringue still looked like a proper, stiff meringue, and it didn't collapsed when I stirred and piped it! So I definitely found the answer to making a stable Italian Meringue - don't add sugar to your egg whites, put it all in the syrup. I will continue to whip my egg whites to my desired final consistency before adding the syrup, since that worked this time and trying to whip a heated sugar-egg mixture never has for me. Putting my findings together with the findings you made in this video, here's my new theory: - There's a huge difference between adding all of the sugar as a hot syrup, compared with adding 25% of it in granular form and then adding the syrup. - This could simply be due to amount of stabilizing candy matrix in the meringue being 25% higher, - OR - THE PRESENCE OF SUGAR CRYSTALS IN THE MIXTURE INHIBITS THE FORMATION OF THE CANDY MATRIX ALTOGETHER. I strongly suspect the later, as the difference in the result was so dramatic. - The difference could possibly be accounted for another way. In this video, you convincingly dispelled the commonly-held belief that Italian Meringue is cooked....or did you? Because, if you add 25% more hot syrup, that's 25% more thermal energy in the mixture. If I'm not mistaken, the specific heat of sugar is rather high, isn't it? Meaning that it holds a lot of thermal energy, but it also takes a lot of thermal energy TO GET IT HOT. If the egg foam didn't contain room-temperature sugar, WOULDN'T THE FINAL TEMPERATURE BE HIGHER, even before account for the 25% increase in hot syrup??? - I think if you repeat the experiments in this video but add all your sugar as a hot syrup, you'll get a higher temperature that might possibly reach the 160 target. - I think if you let that meringue rest, it won't weep like the one made by your current method. - I think there will be less difference between the hand mixer vs. stand mixer meringues, if you use the process I used (beat the egg whites to stiff peaks before adding syrup). - If you don't beat the egg whites fully before adding the syrup, I think the stand mixer will yield a stiff meringue but the hand mixer won't. - I think if you let those both sit.....that's what I'm really curious to see. Will the hand mixer version fail to stiffen, but remain very stable, and the stand mixer version come out great but have less stability? I suspect that heating the egg whites to high temperature has a negative effect on their ability to foam, but the mechanical action of a stand mixer is able to overcome this in a way that a hand mixer can't. I think the difference in either mixer's ability to foam unheated egg whites is probably there, but not all that significant. I think the ability to maintain the initial foam and to develop it even further after the syrup is added is better with the stand mixer, but a stiff meringue could be achieved with either if we whip the egg whites fully and then add 100% of the sugar in a hot syrup. Despite being able to produce a nice foam, the structure of meringues produced by whipping heated egg whites may not be equivalent to those produced by whipping room-temperature egg whites, and then heating. I think you stumbled onto that finding when you observed that the stand mixer meringue achieved greater foam development but this was not stable, whereas the hand mixer achieved poor foam development, but the result was comparatively more stable. I think the stand mixer will achieve additional foam development after the syrup is added, whereas the hand mixer will not, but I'm not sure about stability. The instability in your Italian meringue was due to the incorporation of granulated sugar - I'm convinced of that. But I now also suspect that any foam development achieved after egg whites have been heated may be less stable than foam development achieved prior to heating. With the stabilization problem solved, there's still some question about whether a difference in stability of post-heating meringue foam a) is a thing at all, and b) wouldn't matter even if it is a thing, when the meringue is properly stabilized by hot syrup.

I honestly was thinking of making Italian meringue to make buttercream for my mother's birthday BUT my mother hates anything that has to do with egg whites not being cooked. After I found this video of yours, I decided I'll make swiss meringue buttercream.

Thank you for doing all these experiments! I love watching them!

i honestly love ur videos SO much especially the "i hate american buttercream so i invented a new frosting" i tried it out and it was delicious all your videos are informative and this one made me know a bunch

To give a little perspective, cooking an egg sunny side up or even overeasy leaving the yolk runny is only about 135-140 degrees in the yolk.

your videos are such an amazing learning experience for me - thank u

I LOVE your channel. Where else would we get videos like this other than maybe America's Test Kitchen!? Thank you for going through all that work and calculating to present us with your answer! Very valuable! :)

That’s very interesting. I like the idea and the experiments you do. 😊😎

You did such an incredible job at taking the time to do an experiment on which mixer to use to make Italian meringue. Between the choices of two mixers via the hand vs stand, like a lot of other people, I think I would prefer my stand mixer because it seems like you get a much accurate result with the whisk attachment than the hand mixer. Good Job! I might try making Italian Meringue one day!

This is so interesting. I'm curious, I'd love to see a video of a chiffon or angel food cake, made with whipped egg whites, and then again with other types of meringues to see how the texture and structure of the crumb are different.

Awesome video! Thanks for taking the time to put together such a well thought out experiment and document your results! I especially love your experimental approach of starting with heated egg whites. I had the same concerns about Italian meringue being undercooked, until I learned about "swiss meringue." I used the Swiss method, cooking egg whites and sugar with a water bath until the mixture hit 171F, then I popped it into the stand mixer and it whipped up perfectly. Afterwards, the gradual addition of room temperature butter left me with a big bowl of Swiss buttercream! I'm not sure what difference doing it the Italian method would make, but the Swiss method is so much more simple and (imo) guarantees food safety so it is the obvious choice for me. Also, I'm pretty confident Swiss meringue can be made entirely by hand (no stand mixer) which may not be possible with Italian meringue.

Nice vid, thanks you for all info🙏 As a baker I've yet to hear of anyone contracting salmonella via merengue, but good to know it could be posible (although unlikely) 😅😱

I'm going to disagree with your conclusion, and actually hold that the Italian meringue is "cooked". If you take a look at the chart @2:30, you see that the amount of time required for something to be "fully cooked" changes depending on the temperature you reach. For example, at 165 degrees, you need to hold temperature for 2 seconds to kill all bacteria; but you could achieve the same result at 150 degrees if you held it there for a minute, or at 180 degrees if it was there for less than a second. THIS is the key point. You could theoretically "cook" a mixture if it reached above 170 degrees for less than a second. You're pouring in a syrup that is at 245 degrees before pouring. We can reasonably assume that the syrup is still very hot (let's say above 200 degrees) when it hits the egg whites in the bowl. If that is so, the syrup would kill all bacteria in the egg whites it touches almost instantaneously, but you'd never be able to sense it on a thermometer because the heat disperses quickly as well through the rest of the mixture. Nevertheless, as long as the syrup comes in at 200 degrees or higher (let's say), any egg white it comes into direct contact with will be cooked. The key, therefore, is making sure all the egg whites come into direct contact with the syrup as you poor. Assuming that is the case, I will argue that Italian meringue is in fact cooked.

Great video,thank you so much! I really love Italian meringue buttercream and my attempts to substitute fresh eggs whites with pasteurized ones, haven’t really worked, so I’m very eagerly waiting for your next video on this subject. Not to mention that it would immensely reduce the amount of egg yolks I need to somehow use. A girl can only make so much curd! 😂

Yesssss! Love this 👏👏👏🙌 pls do more sis ☺️ I really wanna see if we can get cooked italian meringue, or just cooked in another method xD

this was a super interesting video thank you! I've always been intimidated by this buttercream and honestly this makes me more intimidated now LOL but love your videos!

Do you have a macaron recipe? I’d love to see your take on macarons!

Just heat the room to 160 and problem solved. Superb content btw.

I'm hoping you experiment further with the Swiss meringue to see if it really does not weep the second day or even the first

Wonder if the large amount of sugar affects Salmonella survival at those temps. Cursory googling suggests sucrose makes Salmonella more heat resistant - contrary to what I expected.

Great info!!! I’ve never made it but we do love macarons I heard they have the powder in them 🎉

So interesting!

I never felt comfortable eating raw eggs so I just heat up the egg whites over a double boiler for 10 to 15 minutes while constantly whisking them; then I let it cool off to reach room temp before adding the rest of the sugar, once it reaches soft peaks I add the butter and keep mixing till I have the right texture. It tastes amazing and I'm afraid of making sugare syrup so I love to do it this way. LOVE your content so much ❤ I'd love to hear your opinion on this method ❤

/the way I make an egg white cream is putting the ingredients of water sugar and egg whites in a double boiler..till it reaches 168.. bring that bowl to mix and cool down making it fluffly then adding butter.. if no butter it's 7 minute frosting ..which can be cooked over the stove and whipped under the hot water..cooking the egg.

Just a thought, maybe you can try combining the italian meringue method with the swiss meringue method? From your video you did use waterbath on your last result to achieve that 165°, which is kinda like the swiss method.

This was so interesting! I'm always a bit afraid of Italian Meringue, because of the uncooked bit. This helped me at least see the science and understand why it is the way it is! Thanks 🥰❤️ P.S. do you have any advice on how long egg whites SHOULD take to get to 74C over a water bath steamer? I find it takes forever, and I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong.

Why not do the 7 minute frosting method? Combine sugar and egg whites and beat over a double boiler for 7 minutes?

Would you be able to cover german buttercream at some point PLEASE!!! You are soooo knowledgeable and love your vids. (German = Creme patissiere + butter)

This has literally been my issue with Italian Merengue Buttercream. Finally someone that shares my concern! Now that I have kids and want to make safe foods for them, making their birthday cakes has been a challenge and I end up just making American frosting and not liking the end result as much as I do my “not kid-friendly” cakes. I’ve tried making the merengue with pasteurized egg whites and I could not get it to stiff peaks, how did you do it?

I've had this question for a long time. I can almost make Italian meringue in my sleep, by testing the sugar in a glass of ice water for firmness. It's the best for topping pies & lemon tarts due to its silky smoothness & almost candy-like mouthfeel & taste.

This is why I just use the boxed pasteurized egg whites when I make cake for others! It's also easier to measure out the liquid 😅

Interesting! I wonder if a thermal camera as opposed to a probe/infrared "point" thermometer would give a better idea of the temperature of the total volume of meringue. The other components I'm curious about when discussing Italian meringue safety are: 1. Likelyhood of salmonella/likelyhood of growth within egg whites vs. yolks/whole eggs: whites don't support bacterial growth as much as yolks/whole eggs--although they can, most salmonella is found on the outside of the shell, or in the yolk if the laying chicken's ovaries were infected with salmonella (one of the reasons European countries and Japan don't traditionally refrigerate their eggs is that they routinely prophylactically treat their chickens against salmonella infection). 2. The high sugar content in Italian meringue and whether that would have an inhibiting factor on salmonella growth. I've seen studies showing that salmonella won't be killed in a low water-activity-high-sugar solution, but I wasn't sure if that was testing whether there were still "dormant" but viable bacteria surviving, or whether the high sugar (high osmotic pressure) content would slow/halt cell replication. Both of these factors might matter because salmonellosis (salmonella "poisoning") is actually an _infection_ (salmonella bacteria growing and replicating in your digestive tract) vs true _poisoning_ by a toxin (botulism causing cell damage via toxin secreted by bacteria that builds up in tainted food). Salmonella infections, while unpleasant, can usually be cleared by a healthy immune system without help (antibiotics), sometimes so quickly there aren't any symptoms. The dose (number of bacteria ingested) has a pretty direct correlation with if/how sick you'll get. That's why proper handling and refrigeration keeps eggs safer even if they're not properly cooked, and why time/temperature controls for prepared food are so important. Even if an egg is laid containing salmonella, and it's eaten undercooked, it could still only contain a few bacteria--if it's picked up quickly and kept at a temperature too cold for cell replication (by factory, during transport, stocking, purchase, and being taken home), the bacteria count in the finished product will still be close to what it was at time of laying. Most salmonella infections occur in children--not because they're getting served different food than their family, but because their immune system isn't as strong. Food safety is extra important when feeding children, elderly, pregnant, and immunocompromised people who are more susceptible. It's something like 1 in 10,000 eggs in the US that are infected with salmonella. Sometimes still the risks really aren't worth the gamble despite those low odds (selling food to the public, feeding baby or grandma, feeding strangers, when medical care isn't readily accessible, right before an important event, or cooking for your narcissistic potential MIL haha), but for the general population of home cooks who understand and can follow food safety guidelines, I think the terror people have for getting salmonella from eggs is a bit overblown. Millions of us forget the eggs on the counter for hours, lick the bowl, eat Italian meringue or go Gaston and swallow them raw every year and don't get infections--the CDC estimates roughly 48 million people get sick from a foodborne illness per year, but only 1.35 million are from salmonella (420 deaths related to salmonella out of an estimated 3000 foodborne illness related deaths per year...of course any death is awful but car accidents kill 46,000 people in the US annually yet we're still out there driving).

Nice video. Seems pretty convincing just experimentally. Might be really hard to do anything analytical/computationally. Nonisothermal system with nontrivial rheological characteristics and a bunch of low conductivity foam... That's complicated. Thermal equilibrium is probably a poor estimate but doing much better here is rough. Hooray for experiments :)

Do you have any recipes that you would suggest for doing cake rolls? I've been trying to find some, but they always use such specialty sized cake pans and your recipes tend to fall into the attainable category lol So any help would be greatly appreciated

You’re awesome

Can I ask why it's not possible to cook the egg whites and smaller portion of sugar over a double boiler first like you do for the Swiss method?

Do you have any buttercream recipes that use aquafaba (along with unsalted butter and granulated sugar)? I've found that most recipes that use aquafaba assume that you need a vegan recipe. So I made a recipe up but messed it up (I used salted butter) and needed to add powdered sugar at the end. Would love an actual recipe! (Just found your channel and absolutely love it, thanks!)

Two things. Really you only need to reach the 150s for about 1 minute. This is why you can cook a turkey for Thanksgiving to 150, and not worry about it, and not have dry turkey. The second is maybe you can use a sous vide and pasteurize the eggs. Do pasteurized egg whites form the same type of meringue?

Is it possible to use the consept of making swiss meringue buttercream in the italian meringue buttercream? So putting the egg white on a double boiler then whisking then adding syrup and continuing with the normal process for italian meringue buttercream? I remember when I first made the italian methode I read about putting the egg in hot water for about a minute or so which i did and it worked out fine but the double bouler seems to be a sure way of killing any salmonella..

Could you cook the eggs over a double boiler like Swiss first to the right temp just without the sugar, then do the sugar syrup on top? Or would that change the structural integrity of the final meringue? Thanks :)

thank you for this eggs-periment.

Do you have the Italian Meringue on the cakeculator?

Good to know and thanks for your hard work. So, I see people use the pasteurized egg whites to make a modified swiss buttercream meringue. My question is it safe to use them from the carton because they have been pasteurized?

I’ve seen videos recently of people torching their meringue slightly while it is whipped, do you think this could help?

How much do you have to increase the quantity of pasteurized egg whites, to make Italian Merengue?

Where can I get recipe of italian meringue buttercream by sugarologie ?

I must just be brought up different because I've been not worrying about eating raw eggs in frosting my entire life, and any other batters that aren't cooked yet lol. I always taste test everything. What can I say, I like to live dangerously I guess. Curious, what did you do with all this Meringue left over? Also can you do a video on the Meringue as a topping? That would be awesome 👌

Hi! Im trying to solve the issue with merigue as fluff, may I ask how would u approach getting it less sweet? I tried to substitued glucose powder instead of sugar but glucose react different than sugar…

Does the dissolved sugar kill the bacteria?

I wonder if the fact that the sugar syrup is 245 at time of pouring makes the temp difference. on the chart you show it need .02 sec at temp. for higher temps. is the sugar pour keeping the initial 245 degree temp for long enough

do this with tiramisu!

What is that mechanism called that is holding the thermometers?

I'll preface by saying that I'm not immunocompromised. Now I've gotten that out of the way, that is perfectly fine for most folks - fresh eggs aren't going to hurt you when raw. But, you know, your mileage may vary. If you think it's bad for you, go with a Swiss meringue.

Okay. So what if the air was hot?

I have a question.. Whenever I bake cake my cake is turning out of soapy taste at some areas of the entire cake..unable to figure out what is wrong..help me plz @sugarology

I'm curious, what was the rationale for using a glass bowl in lieu of a metal bowl? Edit: for the record while this sounds kind of condescending I'm not trying to intentionally be condescending

Can’t you just heat the eggs to 165 beforehand? Then add the sugar syrup… Or will they cook…. Now I have to find out

After reading (and watching) lots of food stories from people in the US, I can positively say that they can get pretty neurotic around food safety. In other countries, where people have lesser access to information, they eat their food without worrying about food safety.. and they don't get sick! That's because contamination is one of many variables regarding food poisoning. I remember one story of a hostess serving the dishes scalding hot, and taking them away from the table when she deemed the food was unsafe too eat because it was cooling. That's not how food safety works, lady!

So basically all this wouldn't matter if you live in a country where all eggs are pasteurised?

and THAT is why I stick to ABC😂. I don't care what anyone says, them eggs are not cooked! 😂😂

I’m one of the people who thinks it’s fine to eat [some] raw foods. I especially don’t think a bit of undercooked egg white is gonna do any harm. I guess you can probably make some arguments against that, but ultimately it’s my risk to take. 🤷‍♂️

SMBC is not cooked also.

This is absolutely cooked. You're basing this on "food safe" temps, which kills potential bacteria, not on temps whereby the enzymes in the eggs break down. The proteins in eggs begin to denture at 140, which means the egg is cooked. Bacteria and protein is not the same thing. Italian Meringue, therefore, is cooked.