Phew, this consistent upload stuff is hard work - So... do you think Kreia is a villain? Or do you think she's something different? We're looking to obtain Discord Partnership for the channel, so if you haven't yet be sure to come and join my server now! - discord.gg/BdpmBtx -
Off topic question. The kotor 2 playthrough you got going, does this include the kotor 2 restoration mod? I've never experienced that myself and wonder how much it added to the narrative
What i learn in Kotor 2 thank to Kreia : Stop follow blindly "the good" thing to do... think about consequences even a good action can bring bad thing later. Better do a a bad thing than do nothing and learn nothing. Help people do important stuff but don't do it for them. And find your own strength (turn away from from strength that is not your own... and that is the true lesson of strength).
Over the last few days, I had a realization that has clouded my view on the true lesson of Strength. Near the end of the game, Atton says something along the lines of: “All that talk of hatred, of standing on your own two feet - doesn’t get more Sith than that.” The player only receives the true lesson of strength on a DS run. The true lesson of strength, to me, now, seems to be to rely on yourself to be strong enough, and if you’re not strong enough on your own, use the dark side to get there.
@@ZacksRockingLifestyle strength only matters for competition and battle. Without those the need for strength is minimal. With Kreia, there is definitely an over-importance of strength. It's not as important as it sounds.
As a kid I had no idea what she was saying at any time, and I only saw her as this wise old woman who seemed to hate everything I did Even without understanding any words she ever said she still formed my morality
You know why Kreia is so impactful to you or me. Because she cares about you. Sure other characters would give their lives for you like Luke or even Han, but Kreia? Kreia would kill for you she said so herself that she would kill the galaxy to preserve you. I know she actually cares for the exile, but you are playing the exile and essentially in the game the exile is you no matter who you chose to be, However Kotor 1 on its own is about who you are and who you choose to be, whereas in Kotor 2 it's about who you were and coming to terms with what you did, even if you don't care about what you did you should be prepared to learn the lesson the hard way. If you do care the game gives every possible chance to test you without holding your hand without patting you on the back, your rewards are the ones you grant yourself. Whether you are good or evil Kreia will always say that she would have the galaxy die for you. Both the exile (you) and Kreia are both connected not by a force bond, but by shared experience of abandonment and discrimination just for doing what you thought was right. Kreia wanted to make the galaxy more wise whether it being for the jedi or sith and the exile wanted to save as many lives as possible. For that the jedi were the ones to punsih one character and forget the other all the whole thry take no responsibility for the repercussions or the Mandolorian wars or the jedi civil wars. Always casting blame and sending out puppets to do their own work something no different from what Revan was doing, only Revan was at least the most honest. Kreia is like a teacher one that you truly needed even if it seems she came too late, you realise that she came at your more dire moment. Not only is Kreia important to you, but you're important to her, she manipulates you yes, but she does love you more than she loved Revan or any of her students.
The philosophy of Kreia is something complicated that can not be explained in a video talking about her actions and why. She truly is a one of the most complex characters ever written in any story period. By far one of my favorite if not my favorite character in all of Star Wars good job on the video but I think it is impossible to completely determine whether she was good or evil because those terms are not relevant I mean it’s not simply black and white there is a lot more gray in everything and I feel like that is her whole goal in the game is to teach the exile well teach the player that the world is a lot more grey and questionable then it is just black and white. Interesting video good job man but I feel like it’s just not possible at least in a short video like this to get down to the root of who she is and what her beliefs are.
Interestingly, the way you described Kreia is EXACTLY what Albus Dumbledore is revealed to be. From the begining, he was guiding Harry yes, but he was doing so to meet his end goal, the death of Tom Riddle, "For the Greater Good.". From the begining, he suspected Hary was a Horcrux, one Voldemort didn't intend to make, when he saw the diary and heard what transpired in the Chamber of Secrets, he knew it. He was guiding Harry towards the right path, protecting, helping him become strong, giving him the tools he needed, but with full knowledge, the boy must die, and it must be by Voldemort's own hand. But as he reveals, he came to love Harry too much, he couldn't bear dropping all of that knowledge on him, so in the end, he worked like Kreia, and even in his plan, he knew Harry would likely survive. As by taking his blood, taking Lilly's protection, he tethered Harry to life. In the past we see this as well. With Grindlewald. In the Deathly Hallows, the subtext is abundantly clear, Dumbledore loved Grindlewald, and that was why he tried so long to not confront him. Instead we see him try to manipulate Newt Scammander and others into doing it for him, all "For the Greater Good."
Kreia is an interesting character. She did what she did for the greater good. She did it to get rid of Sion and Nihilus, and to try to help Revan. While the road to hell is paved by those claiming to act for "the greater good", once in a very great while such things are actually necessary. This is particularly true of Star Wars, where even greater evils are often lurking in the shadows, unseen by the galaxy at large.
The only problem I have with so-called gray areas is that when you increase clarity or definition a very quickly becomes black and white so when people want to tell me that things aren't as cut and dry and all these things like that I scoff and say that's because you're not looking close enough
People are really obsessive with their insistence on making everything murky when, in reality, most things are pretty straightforward. Personally, I find kreia's philosophizing to be meaningless muddying of the waters so to speak; she instills doubt in your actions. Justice is justice, right is right. Anyone too blind to see that can be safely ignored.
People who say it’s just a video game character don’t understand how impactful character is in storytelling is period. A good character and story should always be impactful or feel real, video game or not.
I think that all star wars films, series, games do have hidden wisdoms and excellent lessons that can be used in life if you are willing to look deep enough to see them it's absolutely fantastic in my opinion the main reason I love star wars so much.
A morally grey character is considered unorthodox, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're evil. Kreia has just been through hardships that transformed her into the person we see in Kotor 2 and without her teachings, Revan and Meetra Surik wouldn't have fulfilled their destinies. Ironically, the force was using Kreia to make Revan and Meetra Surik into a better Jedi by expanding their philosophy on the force which eventually improved the Jedi Order as a whole so does that necessarily make her the villain? No, not at all
Kreia is a complex character indeed but I never considered her to be evil in the basic sense. Like on Nar Shadaa, or in the discussions on the ship she makes you question what is real selfishness and truth. The jedi could be considered selfless when doing charitable acts, but she makes you realize there are consequences to every action. The Korriban catacombs portion were really fun for allowing you to see perspective on the lessons she tried to teach you. The fact that all her students went to the dark side were meant to make her seem like a villain somewhat, but I think her end goal was to raise a new crop of grey jedi. Able to distinguish the light from the dark and not be stuck in battles of old. Unfortunately straddling the balance is never easy. All it takes is one major incident in a persons life to tip the scales a little too far and whoops you're influenced more by the dark side.
Kreia is essentially grey. And or borderline Dark Jedi. She has much wisdom, but it's equally manipulative. Ultimately her wisdom is aimed to serve her purposes. And ultimately she is always sith at the end. While her aims were noble, her means were not. Regardless of light or dark both share valuable knowledge.
Sorry I already commented I think grey cought between the light and dark she minipulates you being dark but she also pushes to the light because you become a Jedi but you can also become a sith which is why I love the game so much it's a choose your own advanchure like the old books when I was young but it's a game even better
If anyone wonders if her teachings matter: I believe there is a higher power..... and I hate it Kriea taught me why and how to do so, and get on with my life; it's hard knowing and seeing things that no one else knows/feels/sees, or even acknowledges
Kreia fell in love with Meetra because she was the living enbodyment that a Jedi (or any person) could live on even cutting ties completely with the Force. She wanted every person in the whole galaxy to live free of the whims of the Force. She wanted every living being to have free will. She knew she could have killed trillions of people doing this, but the survivors would be utterly free. By definition, she's not a heroine, but just because of her methods. Her ends were, to me, perfectly right, which were to leave a galaxy free of the will of the Force.
For most of the game she's just the antagonist. When you get to the final confrontation, she's definitely a villain. She doesn't care who or how many people are hurt to get what she wants. Yes she is morally ambiguous, until the end. Her goals are still selfish, especially because she doesn't really understand the exact nature of the force. She's villainous, she's manipulative and she ultimately doesn't actually care about the galaxy. But she is nuanced and that why she's popular
I learned about Kreia from different youtube videos, especially the Philosophy of Kreia, a critical examination of Kreia or smth like that, I really liked her character because it was complex, I never really like heroes and villains for most of them are absolute but Kreia is something else entirely, when I got to play the game, her reputation preceded her, she was even more exciting to chat with and she always has that tone of a woman, who knows a billion things and you know that she is hiding something. I could write more on her but I think my comment will never end. Kreia is the best thing that happened to star wars.
the major flaw with kreia is the fact that she and nobody else who follows her ideology realizes that you cannot rid the galaxy of the force. you can rid the galaxy of jedi and sith, but never the force.
Hero's are the ideal, and ideals are dreams. Delusions and aspirations of the young and the naieve. Kreia was not the villain, her legacy before the exile was. And to complete your training she took her role as the last of the Triumvirate back so it could be finished.
To call Kreia a villain? She brings you the truth and you condemn her, the arrogance! Sometimes a sacrifice is undistinguishable from betrayal. Sometimes you have to let go of your convictions to stay true to yourself. Treat her with the utmost respect, this I command you.
I would also go on to say that Sion and Nihilus aren’t true villains as well. Like you said in your video on Sion he kind of wanted to heal the galaxy, didn’t think revenge or destroying the Jedi was worth it, and had feelings for the exile grew. Nihilus is somewhat more of a villain, but at the same time he is more of a force ( pun intended) of nature, that had once been a living being, but had been cursed with an endless hunger for force energy, and it’s hard to say whether he is totally in control, such as when he devastated Katarr, and if he is gaining power or if he has some level of control over himself, such as with Visas.
Kreia is not truly a villain. To me Kreia could be described as a Dark/Anti Balancer. A necessary evil but to counter balance that which made the burden on the greater galaxy. If you think about it? Ultimately after the Jedi Civil War? Which was the by product of the Mandalorian Wars, the galaxy was bleeding. So she felt the force was what created this great wound. So if the Force was eliminated? Then the galaxy would repair itself. But to do this, she too needed something that was an equal wound, and that the Exile came into play. But what is even more interesting as Darth Treyia? She had hoped that she could through Nihlious and Zion would help in her goals. But they turned against her. Before then she too was a Jedi and taught many later on even Revan. So yes I think she might have been a necessary evil, but more like a wedge to bring retribution to a festering infection on the galaxy, and a tough as nails grandma like mentality to toughen the next generation. To prevent history from repeating itself again
Quiet honestly an anti villian is not someone you see many people do. The only few times think I've seen something like that was in some animes because most of them challenge the viewer on complex stories. I don't remember which ones had characters like that but I know they exist.
Yeah, she is a villain. Not entirely evil, but still pretty evil. She is hypocritical, contradictory, and manipulates everything in her life. She makes you accept uncomfortable truths to help you be better, but she needed to be stopped. And most importantly, Kreia fans need to stop worshipping her just because she brings up interesting points. She's well written, but her solutions to the nonexistent problems with the Force are crap. The Force isn't malignant. She's insane, and I don't feel guilty saying that.
@@100StarWars Actually, ya know what? THANK YOU for being respectful. Looking back on my comment, I was pretty harsh on Kreia (Even though she does deserve it, let's be honest). But I was also malicious to her fans too, even though they do worship her. So I apologize for that. It was wrong of me to be so curtly about it. Keep up the content you make, buddy! But make sure you do it at your own pace okay? I have my own separate channel so I know how it feels sometimes. And keep interacting with your viewers like you are! It shows that you care and want to interact with us. Keep up the awesome stuff, dude!
Yes. Because her entire philosophy is simply the cynical, uncharitable, arrogant belief's of one who just can't accept that their wrong, no matter how humbling her experience's, just blaming the consequences of her poor teachings on the Force, as if a harmonious energy field created by all life could actually have in in for her. She's like Caesar in new Vages, a erudite orator who twists history to fit her own perceptions. Revan becoming a Sith to him was the worst experience of his life, something he's ashamed of and will be forever scarred by. Yet shecan praise him because his "achievements " are by extension her own. for going his "own way". To me she's always come across as someone who blames the wind for blowing a sais of the ship she's onl in a direction she doesn't want to go and resenting the fellow crewmen for accepting that. Throughout our journey she always shows dislike for anyone who determines if we progress or not, like on Telos station with the Ithorians. She's a control freak, and anything she can't influence or control infuriates her. Plus we have to consider the meta fact, she was ChrIs Avallone's way to criticize the Star Wars EU at the time, which was full of contradictions, thanks to having too many cooks in the kitchen over the years. (The main reason Lucas never had it in continuity with the films, and why Disney officially discontinued it so the series would be more consistent with the mythos) And since the game was rushed out we have no idea if he was going to include any significant counterpoints. I remember an interview saying he wanted someone to ask the questions he had even if he didn't have the answers. He did the same with Ulysses in Lonesome Road to express his desire for a less civilized Wasteland like it was in the original Fallout.
I think that Kreia should be considered always a mentor, even in the last part in the game. She's not fighting the Exile, she's teaching him a deadly lesson, testing his final skills. And when he beats her, she can die at peace, knowing that his apprentice is ready.
To be fair, that would be asking the bulk of Star Wars youtubers to break from their mad lib style of click bait videos, which is something that is not going to happen anytime soon.
This is the channel that actually knows the lore of OR. Most other RU-vidrs that try to cover it just scream "Revan!!1!1, two sabers, click the video!"
That's why 100% Star Wars is my favorite RU-vidr because he's one of the few who actually dives deep into the lore and probably the only one that gives real information about the Old Republic
While I disagree personally, and would actually say Revan is the best, I definitely do understand why Kreia is popular. She's an extremely compelling character that really makes you scratch your head, whether you like her or not.
@@roberteischen4170 @Robert Eischen Yeah, you're rigth. But even being a book, it still has value, if we remember one very basic notice that the books are valued by the teachings they contain, by the depth of them and, in the case of didatic books, they credibility. And i am not refering to the Bible only, but to any other book, realy, even if its contents are fictional or arguable, as most religious documents are considered. They will still uphold value. And the cultural and personal value can still be considered. The cultural value most importly, since it influences a lot of people, and that is the case of the Bible and other religious manuscrits. Considering this, the Bible is not really just a book. It has a certain importance and renown. But yeah, if you don't value the Bible, it can be just another book, even if is housing a extreme external importance and influence.
Not every character is definitively “good” or “evil,” and there are those that fall between those extremes. Kreia though seems to fit in a category of her own. Edit: also no need to apologize for the unscripted video. Sometimes just rambling can give someone the most honest perspective you have.
That's the thing though, is that in Star Wars most characters *are* either good or evil. They either embrace the Living Force or deny it and turn to the Dark Side. The Force is structured in such a way that it manipulates the galaxy into falling between those true extremes of mindless, apathetic tranquility and dominating evil tyranny. The Force structures the galaxy into a never-ending war between two polar opposites, and the ability to make your own decisions and express yourself as a human being with complex emotions is crippled. It's one of the reasons that Kreia hates the force.
I don't think the world would be better, in the sense of a more peaceful place. If everyone has knowledge, everyone is just more powerful and dangerous. If everyone acts like Kreia, manipulating each other, the world would just be crazier.
@@thomastran1163 I had a couple teachers like Kreia. They were instrumental to me. I learned from an early age, that "grown ups" don't know everything. That you can think for yourself. That you can take information, find the fact, and come to your own conclusions about it. There would be a similar amount of manipulative people in the world, but there would be a larger amount that are aware of what they are trying to accomplish.
The biggest mistake of Kreia, as is the biggest mistake of the Jedi, the Sith, & Star Wars fans in general, is assuming that the Force has a will. It is just as inaccurate as assuming an ocean has a will because of how waves crash and tides ebb & flow. It is as Jolee said: "Sometimes swirling Force is just swirling Force."
@@DBArtsCreators That doesn't seem exactly true. Time and again the franchise has been built around the Will of the Force, and how its will is centered on balance and the interconnectedness of life. Even if you reject the concept of the Force being manipulative, most would tell you that The Force in the very least influences events to shape the galaxy into a state of balance.
@@animore8626 All of that is based on the views of the Jedi & Sith, however. There is no actual evidence in Star Wars that the Force has any will nor intentional influence on anyone/anything (which is the relevant point here, as that is what the Jedi/Sith/fans keep claiming). The stories in the series are built around what the people are doing & presuming, never because of something the Force itself ever did nor influenced. People read into what the Force does; a case of people (in-universe at least; fans are just copying those in-universe) being too wise for their own good, reading reason and purpose into things when no such reasons/purposes are present.
I am so glad you are getting more of your quality content out in a more frequent time period. And to reply, I have to say that no she is more of that scholarly person and has somewhat of a benign if flawed goal. She does have villainous tendencies, such as manipulation, but that could also be, because the other characters don’t fully understand her goal, but at the same time it is bad in some cases.
But couldn't it be argued that we all have villainous tendancies in our own small ways? So would that make us out and out villains or just flawed people?
Kreia is a fascinating, complex, unique, and masterfully written villain, but still definitely a villain. She is prepared to kill countless Force-sensitive beings and cause untold other consequences just to "free" the galaxy from the Force. She has given herself unlimited authority to change the galaxy and make things the way she wants them to be- thinking inwards, only about herself. Being able to express a philosophy more complex than simply screaming "UNLIMITED POWER!!!" is what makes her stand out against hordes of other Star Wars villains, but complexity does not by itself make a villain less villainous or a hero less heroic.
It so beautifully fitting that a woman whose philosophy focuses on transcending binary divisions and labels is, herself, a n excellent subversion of the binary hero/villain concept.
I think she's one of the deepest heroes that ever existed. Her intentions are deep and fueled by an understanding of the darkside of the force. Deep within it she wants some light to come about because of it. She wants freedom from the bindings of the force to occur. She's like the darkest and wisest Anti-Hero and Anti Villain that existed.
I forget, if you try to pick all the good options, such as being charitable and being a Jedi or Jedi in the case of being the version of Meetra Surik in the grey version, is she disgusted by this or proud of you for sticking to your guns in the end?
If memory serves, she is conflicted. She disagrees (sometimes to the point of disgust) with you, but commends you on being your own person (I believe).
It doesn't matter... If you go full sith she would also complaint about you being a savage or cruel. She is something in the middle and you can only please her as if you constantly look at your own actions thinking on how she would deal with the situation... Kreia doesn't pick fights unless is strictly necessary, for a sith this is annoying, for a jedi is commendable, but Kreia makes no distinction of who you would pick a fight, if it is in the way of her own goals, for jedi this is horrible, for sith is commendable... As you can see, Kreia is a little bit of both jedi and sith, the self control of emotions from jedi with brutal logic of the sith... Its no wonder how she wants to save the galaxy... At all costs! Self contro of jedi, brutal logic of the sith, ruthless means, for a sacrificial goal.
After all these years I'm still more enlightened from kreia than anyone else. Not a day goes by I don't say or think about one of our interactions. I'm always testing you. Be careful you just might learn something.
Actually, Kreia is the protagonist. She got the best voice acting, she has the most of the screen time, she is in the center of the plot. Even if you don't take her with your group, she'll be there. She is the one to set all of the events in motion, she is in the beginning of the story and in it's end. She is the core of the entire game. Take her away and there is no story, there is no Exile, there is nothing to do, there is no teachings, no salvation for the galaxy and neither it's death. Kreia is really the one you set on the course of actions. You may think that it's the Exile you play but literally you play Kreia, since the Exile is blank. You can change how Kreia acts and what she says, and what things she'll do for both "light" and "dark" side choices and endings. At this point of view I'd say that the Exile is a sort of complicated joystick or controller (or even mirror) you use to move Kreia from one flashpoint to another. Think about that: your "controller" is directly tied to the protagonist via "Force bond". And they are both exiles. So much meaning they really put in it. And in the end I'll just leave these here: - Kreia, what are you - are you a Jedi, a Sith? - Does it matter? Of course it does. such titles allow you to break the galaxy into light and dark, categorize it. - Who I am is not the question. - You are that which has attacked the Jedi... you are Sith. - "Sith" is a title, yes, but like you, the title is not who I am. It is not what I believe.
I’d say no and yes personally I really am not sure lol but still very interesting nonetheless it’s crazy how we can still get new interpretations from playing this game so much really makes the game timeless
The ideal of not labelling and looking at things more closely than just good and evil I think is very important for today's day and age. Seems lost to most people.
No..she’s the hero we needed..to destroy the force and save the galaxy from it’s biggest blight to save this franchise from it’s mediocrity and apathy...and the world forgot about her.. (Lol nope we need more big jedi vs sith stories so we can make money for marketing, if she was successful and they kept that, this franchise would’ve been forced to tell more stories not tied down by the dumb black and white sanitized stories of the force we get fed so often)
This definitely creates discussion and a variety of opinions. I like reading the different beliefs people have of Kreia; including your own. I can see where you would consider her to be an anti villain too. I can’t wait to explore the game for myself so I can form my own opinion of her. Well done Luke it’s an interesting topic; glad you made a video on it💜
Kreia is a masterclass in manipulation, feeding you specific points that seem true to deceive you into believing her overall philosophy. Just because one or two specific examples might seem to suggest she has a point, they are largely flukes. In reality, she is sowing the seeds of doubt and hesitation, trying to convince you that justice is wrong simply because it doesn't always turn out the way it should. Its false. Just is just, light is light, and good is good. These are tautological statements, true by nature. Regardless of how ones actions turn out, to strive to do the right thing is still the right thing. As for the force, its also questionable if 'the force' as a whole has a singular guiding will, and I'd be inclined to strongly say it doesn't. When Jedi are talking about the will of the force, I don't think it should be taken so literally. The force, clearly, has dark and light side components that are not always acting in concert; while the Jedi might try and act as they believe the force guides them to, other force users do as they will. The force does not compel or control them, or at least I don't think there is nearly sufficient evidence to demonstrate or even suggest that it does. Truth of the matter is the force wasn't responsible for the conflicts, it was the sith themselves. The dark side should be understood as an unnatural perversion of the force. If it wasn't the sith, you'd have some other malevolent forces acting. Without the Jedi, the galaxy would likely have eventually fallen to the Yuuzhan Vong. Incidentally she probably would have liked the Yuuzhan Vong, seeing as how they were cut off from the force. Didnt exactly do much to end their conflicts though, did it? Much the opposite in fact, as the war was only ended once their connection was restored. In reality... Kreia may be complex, and she may be very good at convincing you she's in the right. But in the end, she's as delusional, cold-blooded, vicious, and self-aggrandizing as the rest of the Sith. To extrapolate from limited life experiences the belief that helping is not helping and meting out justice is worthless, is delusional in the extreme. To decide to destroy the bonds of life in the galaxy because you blame them for negative things that have occured is complete insanity. She's basically the same as Cyrus from Pokemon. All she's done is added more conflict and death to the galaxy.
I don’t Kreia is a hero, a villain, an anti-hero, or an anti-villain. I personally feel like regulating her to one of those labels is to completely miss her entire criticism of all beliefs. Kreia is none of those she’s Kreia. There’s no guarantee that destroying the Force would ultimately make the galaxy better, so I can’t actually say that’s a “good” goal. Kreia’s a font of knowledge, but she’s just a flawed person. Like all of us. However, she has an insight completely free of the bias, the fear of the unknown, naivety, uncertainty, and arrogance that people have. She sees the world for what it is and accepts it. Something many never do.
I believe you brought up amazing points here. I personally don’t think she’s evil or good. Evil and good is subjective. I think anti-villain is the best way to describe her. Yes, she’s manipulative, yet… she taught. Not just normal teachings, but teachings to go outside one’s self, look at different points of views. Consider that everything comes at a price or may not be as cut and dry. Kreia is complex, so much so she impacts others, as you stated. Yes, it’s a video games, and yes, people have been impacted by video games. I certainly have. She says so many important lines in this game, like you stated, that can be applied to real life. One line I love by her is: “Plans are fragile things and life often dashes expectations to the ground.” While the sentence seems depressing and simple, maybe it also means that while those plans dash to the ground, there is a reason for it. Maybe we don’t know that reason at the time, yet there’s more to it than meets the eye. Kreia did inherently no good, yet no evil. She is neither light nor dark. Though I’d go as far and call her a “Gray Sith”. Similar to the “Anti-Villain” name you gave her, but more of a in the Star Wars universe name. She even states: “'Sith' is a title, yes, but like you, the title is not who I am. It is not what I believe. For you… it is different.” This alone tells us we must learn to adapt and understand not everything is black and white. She teaches so well. I could go on and on and on about her teachings and talk about the definitions and details. That, my friends, is good character writing in my opinion. She, in essence, is very philosophical, in terms of questioning the true nature of good and evil, the true nature of others and knowing what your actions may do now AND potentially in the future. She teaches to learn from the present and past, knowing full well that any action could cause a negative outcome. I see some similarities in the Socratic Method in that sense of questioning morals and what one believes in.
I've always perceived Kreia as a villian esq character or at least on par with Palpatine. They use perspectives and points on the whole that make sense, but are so manipulative with underlying motivations. I can see how they were able to convert others to the dark side so easily. Poisonous whispers
But while Palpatine does it for power, and for self serving reasons. Kreia does it for a greater purpose that she believes will save people. I would say that's a stark difference.
@@100StarWars I don't disagree with you on that point. Kreia is certainly not a one dimensional villan like Sheev. However her machiavellion approach to how the galaxy should be treated or viewed I believe is villanous. For example I recall after your final showdown in the center of Malachor V she relays how she hates the fact that the force has a will and wants to end it, knowing full well it would mean the end of all life connected to it. Her motivations may be twisted enough to be perceived as heroic, wanting to free life in the galaxy from a dominant control such as the force but it's also how a character goes about it ya know? Now you can also argue I'm strictly referring to the "Darth Traya" persona, while "Kreia" is a much more curmudgeonly objective gray jedi. I would have liked to see Kreia return to give her opinions in what Revan did within the MMO after "dying" the first time
@@100StarWars she doesnt have a greater purpose. she hates the force because she doesnt like the idea of something controlling HER. yet, she spends all of her time and energy trying to control other people. on top of that, everything we know about the Star Wars universe is that the force itself is inherently good, not evil and not even neutral but good. people, like Kreia, use their abilities with the force to do bad things and to bring suffering on others. but people do that even without using the force. she also gives terrible life lesions and is hypocritical much of the time. dont help people because being charitable will result in a guy getting killed because you help him. dont help people because you are robbing them of their strength. but then praises Revan for running off to do what? HELP the republic while demonizing the Jedi for not rushing to war with Revan to help the republic. Kreia is not your typical antagonist in a game i will grant you that... but there is nothing really deep about her world view or morality. in fact, can you imagine living in a society where everyone thought as she does?
I think Kreia’s philosophy is incredibly intriguing, especially considering the last Jedi. Let me explain; as we got to here Kreia isn’t inherently bad, but believes that the Jedi are corrupt and arrogant and must be punished, and same with the Sith to a degree. This is pretty close to the same philosophy that Luke has in the last Jedi. It’s such a good plot line, but why do people hate it so badly, when they also love Kreia?
She is very much like satan; Out make sure others govern themselves and trying to separate everyone from God. Her story is almost exactly taken out of the bible. She won't kill simply for killing, she'll manipulate others to do it, just prove she can. She doesn't fo the typical villainous thing, instead, she'll create villains. Which, I believe, makes her the ultimate villain. But this is just my take on it. I enjoy this game and kreia is by far the best villain of abby game I've played
Bro what version of Satan are you referring to, most religions with Satan have have him killing for the sake of killing and depending on which religion Satan isn’t even the devil, he’s specifically the arch demon which rules over the sin of wrath (wrath and self governance don’t exactly go together).
Kreia has her own agenda sure, but this does not make her a villain. It is how we are programmed by our real life schools, and governments, friends and parents to think of others. Even self sacrifice is a good thing to teach to kids... but can any of us say that nobody used that against us ? Those things are thought to us so that people can use it against us guilt tripping us into obedience. It is all about controlling us. Kreia always said the truth, she did teach, protect and nourish our wisdom, she is a hero but from the other side.
With the restored content mod, this has become my favorite Star Wars video game of all time! The main reason is the complexity of all the characters and how they change depending on how you play the game. Because of that, it's hard to categorize Kreia, but I would definitely call her an antagonist. When I played through the game the first time, although I would listen to her, I did not fully trust her.
Something different ??? When I first seen the beginning and end of kreia character I always thought one thing that she is literally the living critique of the Force and star wars itself?
I believe you are correct and the reason so since you brought superheroes up The punisher is a good example as well they both have a lot in common in the way they work in my opinion
Yes she is, and you are look at Keira with nostaltic view. Keira is just one teacher and she took pride that revan returned to her after he "chooses" to fall to the dark side but she is just one person and you shouldn't just listen to her and not concider everyone else opinion. That isn't something she want even Revan (and her admiration who is a little misguided) left her and doesn't come back to her before he left for the unknown regions. But your conclusion that Keira is an Anti-Villain is something i give you credit for, this is the first mention of this Name who discribes a Character. So thank you.
One way to view this is through Jolee. He is basically Kreia light, as they share the same grey philosophies. If Kreia's views are evil, then Jolee is too. I don't believe Jolee is evil, therefore Kreia is not. She is more extreme than him is all. Yet another way to view it is that Kreia was not using you, but rather the force was using her. Much like forcing Anakin to join the sith in order to destroy them from within, I think the force may have manipulated Kreia's to become it's instrument. The force had become not only imbalanced, the galaxy was left with wounds that were like giant oil spills of force power and influence. Kreia was necessary to stop that rot of the force from coating the galaxy. Even Kreia couldn't venture beyond the galaxy and confront the true sith threat. Her only job was containment of a huge spill.
Kreia is both a Jedi and a Sith, and perhaps she is neither. It took me a few years, but slowly the depth of Kreia's philosophy sank in. It's weird to think of a fictional character in a Star Wars game as a great philosopher, but here we are. Kreia, like Kotor 2 in general, challenges the player's preconceived notions and turns everything on its head. Charity is harmful, a Jedi is weak because force reliance. Almost every Light Side choice that anyone would obviously believe to be right, Kreia challenges you at every step. I love and respect Kreia and Chris Avellone for the experience Kotor 2 offers. She paints Revan as a master general and master of strategy, one who is so bold and cunning that they bend the universe to their will. She teaches the exile how to hear others through the force, improve our weaknesses, not rely on others, our actions affect others, be careful of who we associate with, and of course the previously mentioned beggar's conundrum. Real world lectures that clearly not everyone is fortunate enough to hear, or wise enough to learn. We can't ignore Kreia's misdeeds. Apparently, Kreia was at the council and made the decision to exile the exile in the first place. She used and manipulated so many, including the exile and many party members. She used the exile to track down and gather the remaining Jedi Masters. Her master plan would have destroyed the force and all life unable to disconnect. Would such a destructive act prevent more evil in the long run? Kotor 2 cut me off from the force. The story was so deep, eye-opening, dark, and thought provoking that the new content feels like "Duh, Space Man beat bad guy, robot stuff, duuuuh." I didn't know it at the time, but I had slowly become a student of Kreia. Her lessons still echo in my head, much like other players, and like Darth Sion. Kreia used me, and turned me into a more pessimistic, cautious individual. Is Kreia a True Villain? Yes and so much more. Chris has said he wanted to create a sympathetic Sith Lord and failed. He created something that is the antithesis of both the Light Side and the Dark Side. I think the one lesson anyone can take away from Kreia is to question our decisions, because force echoes do exist as consequences. Revan is power. The exile is bonds. Kreia is knowledge. Apathy is death. Life is suffering.
Are we really trying to categorize her ? She'd be offended if after all of her teachings we'd try to give hier a title, much like sith or jedi. She is - for many of us - our teacher. The Merlin we never met. The future us, we look up to and strive to become. Someone who we idealaize .... And in the end, we'll she her flaws. Just how fragile she is. And that is the point when she DOESN'T REALLY have anything to teach us, because we've out grown her. Farewell, my old master ...
It's because of characters like Kreia that I would love to see a new Star Wars film series set in the Old Republic era, there is so much rich fodder here. First film/trilogy could be around the Mandalorian Wars, the second film/trilogy is Revan's story, the third film/trilogy is Meera's, the the fourth film/trilogy is what would've been KOTOR 3.
Kreia isn't a villain. She's a True Sith... I don't remember where I've read it, but in one of the books, it's said that the Sith exist for the "study and worship of the Dark Side". The Dark Side is the "destructive" or "self-destructive" aspect of the Force. The Light Side being the "Creative" or "Life-generating" aspect of it. Kreia is a worshipper of the "Void". She wants the Force to be destroyed, which is the end sought by the Dark Side. She may be manipulative, but she was always honest in her beliefs.
No she isn't ,but she had seen through the lies and the hypocracy of both jedi and sith and came to the conclusion that both are to blame for all the wars induced by the Will of the Force. I DnD terms she id a Truly Neutral character, which does not side with any allegiance than her own, she knows things and shares them if you are seen worth her time. ))) P.S.: Back in the day in SWTOR I killed the dark side Revan by my own as Chiss Lady Imperial Agent Sniper, simply to prove my own power against Force Users, as I did all the Warzones I have partaken in solo/group matches . Still don't like Force Users as I like my Agent , and my Mandos ) they don't need the Force to be fortable foes for anyone force or not. )))
I think Kreia sees herself as a villain. While she spits fire and venom at the Jedi, the Sith, and the Force, it's clear her war is with herself. There is a line to Atton where she says that "if Exile the is Jedi, she will forgive and if she is Sith, she will not care." She needed to hear she wasn't wrong. That she didn't effectively lead hundreds of Jedi to their deaths or falls. She couldn't forgive herself, and she cared far too much to be anything but the anti-villain as you said. However, through it all because of her own demons and the means at which she wanted to excise them, she saw herself as a villain. Speaking of KOTOR II villains, the real villains of it weren't Sion, Kreia, or Nihilus but the Jedi Council. Every step of the game shows them in a harsh and negative light. Revan, Malak, Sion, Kreia, Nihilus, and the Exile were all victims of their arrogance and cruelty. In cut content, the 3 masters reveal that Attris was the force behind Nihilus slaughtering Kataar. Their dogmatic and arrogant views closed their minds to the damage their absence, actions, and inactions caused. It's what I love about the game so much.
I would love to see Ming-Na Wen play Kriea. She played "May" on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and voiced OG Mulan, but I'm sure needed no introduction. I fully believe Kriea to be the greatest written woman in fictional history.
Much of the philosophy of Kreia is very similar to that of Ayn Rand. Though I would argue that, beyond the surface levels, Rand's philosophy is ultimately less intellectually sound than Kreia's and, as such, even more self-destructive and less viable. There are, of course, parallels to several other (probably much more wise) philosophers as well, and I would hope that those stimulated by the thoughts created by Kreia would do some study on the subject of philosophy and not let this particular character garner a dominant portion of one's perceptions. Not to say that I disagreed with the thesis of this essay, but there are better means by which to influence one's framework for thought, even though she certainly does effectively serve that role in this story.
It exists a video explaining her phylosophies and its quite interesting. You know what would also be intersting? A colab between the man who made that video and this channel. So much kotor knowledge together may be amazing
A couple thoughts. I fully agree that Kreia is an anti-villain and mentor character. The interesting thing is that regardless if you agree with her, she still teaches you with her methods--that of conflict. She proves her points, regardless if you accept them. Agree with her? Congrats you see conflict as a teacher. Disagree with her? Congrats, you learn something through that conflict. That alone seems like an interesting point imo. A few things I personally believe though, is compassion is a good thing, though you should learn from conflict when it arises. Offer to help others, though hope that they learn from their experiences and don't stay in their ways. Kreia and I would disagree, but regardless she still taught me
Kriea is more like a foil, and a dark oriented Grey Jedi. She gives contrast to the protagonist. There is a point on Nar shadar where you can mind trick a couple goons into committing suicide, its petty and beneath kriea. However so to was the light side option. In hind sight you can tell very few options using the force please her. Also you need to be a pragmatist over a sadist. Killing the goons to her is wrong, but letting an assassin live who failed to kill you would also be wrong. Unless you had a use for him/her. So basically almost any decision you make will displease her. Making her the perfect foil
