Been seeing a lot of discussion on masculinity these days and it makes me think a lot about my dad and the kind of masculinity I was raised with. On the outside he was a VERY traditionally masculine guy, I'd go as far as to call him a kind of "renaissance man" who could do and did do everything. He was a hockey player, had a 30+ year career in the army where he was a paratrooper, military police, air marshal, he served in 3 oversea tours and celebrated his 50th birthday in Afghanistan, worked as a truck driver and parliament security, he hunts, rides motorcycles and scuba dives in his free time, and now in his 60s he teaches sports to other old timers and plays in tournaments. He was big and muscular with a thick accent and had a bad habit of accidentally scaring my friends into not wanting to come over lol But living with the guy I never really saw him that way. He loved to cook and bake and would wear his apron and watch daytime cooking shows to get in the groove. My mom never had to ask him to clean or help with chores he would just do that all on his own, he liked to sing along to old-timey french music and sad country songs, and hated rock because it was too aggressive. During his last tour he carried a little stuffed frog strapped to his rucksack, and at home he has little sentimental mementos hidden all around the garage. I've seen him cry more than I've seen my mom cry, and there was nothing shameful about it. I guess this is just a long-winded way of saying I grew up with a healthy role model of masculinity and in retrospect I'm thankful for that. It makes me cringe so hard when I see guys today abuse and insult their own mothers, or put their wives down in front of their buddies like it's some fun joke. If a man raised in rural Quebec in the 60s/70s can get it right then I don't know what everyone else's excuse is.
Just try to keep in mind that these trait stereotypes only work in media as (and say it with me) "THIS IS NOT REAL". These are just characters guys, tgere is almost no real life application to these marketised traits as life is not written and people act however they wan't. This isn't a propaganda for or against this new trait movement. It is a mere statement of the fact that people are still people and not movie characters. People will not blow up a uranium compound while slowly walking away, neither will they start breaking down in a hysteric fit. Don't let media guide you or your values which you hold near and dear to you. Rembember that they are the ones who try to conform to reality and shape your perception of it like they see profitable. It is not you who should conform to their ideas, it is the opposite. Values are the ones you set to yourself. Don't let media set those values.
I related to Bill. Not with his sexuality, but his love. My wife gives me meaning in a relatively meaningless life. I do things for her because it makes me happy. It makes me feel useful, when my job treats me like a meaningless cog. She centers me and focuses me, and I saw that in their relationship. I actually teared up at the end, when they chose to go together. Side note, I’m also a huge fan of Arcane. =p
I think this video reflects exactly why Pedro Pascal has gained a lot of popularity lately. Letting aside that he has been doing fatherly caring roles, he's not your typically buff, over masculine movie star. He seems soft, warm and sincere. His fans even say that he's "babygirl". And that's what makes him so likable.
Exactly, he keeps his toughness around people that he is protecting so they dont feel scared but when he is with someone that understand him he talks about how he feels, pretty realistic
I think Oberyn Martell from GOT in 2014 also has a role in this theory too. He's a masculine, charismatic, smoothly flirtatious, well-dressed, hot-headed but politically astute warrior out for revenge on behalf of his sister, and is openly and unashamedly bisexual without being stereotypically feminized. His lowcut outfits would be considered feminine by modern standards but show off his built chest in a very masculine way. He's one of the few men in the show that doesn't treat women as inherently inferior, and his desire to achieve justice for his sister and believe Tyrion fits into the protector archetype too. He's probably a precursor to this trend as he has all the same bridging traits and masculine roles outlined in this video. Pedro Pascal has shown that he has extremely good mastery at playing complex ideas of masculinity, so he's a natural choice for these current stories
@@summergirl4567considering Oberyrn Martell is still the charming, charismatic, womaizer type that many men are expected to be I don't think he's that great I want more masculine characters who get zero pussy. I want to feel represented
Arthur Morgan fits very well into this paradigm. A rough, grizzled outlaw… who loves to draw, reflect on life, sing stupid songs, and take care of his horse. Oh, and he protects his friends in the end, then promptly dies. Legend.
i think what really stuck with me from bill and frank’s romance was the fact that they were free to love each other without fear of what others would think. especially when you remember that since the outbreak happened in 2003, gay marriage was never legal for them, yet they were still able to find love. i started sobbing at the scene where they exchanged rings at the piano. truly a beautiful episode
I really do love the protector archetype, it’s such a good archetype, ESPECIALLY when characters grow into that archetype, like guts or Kratos, who start off being more of the fighter archetype, slowly becoming more of a protector as the story goes on. I like that process of change, like a warrior who fought in countless battles, but now has a family who he needs to take care of, and can’t solve all his issues by fighting anymore, so he becomes more of a father. That’s not to say I don’t like the fighters, they’re both equally good in their own ways. I like the transition from one to the other pretty much
@@michaualtington yeah, like I’m aware that being badass wasn’t their ONLY character traits, of course this whole idea goes a lot deeper than what I said, I just simplified for convenience. I’ve seen a lot of people seeing this as just like, the characters getting weaker, but that couldn’t be further from the truth
@@rainy4902 There exists this idea in modern culture that stoicism and masculinity are somehow "Hard". It is a stereotype, particularly constructed by feminism and other forces that want to make the concept seem less redeemable, or otherwise positive. It isn't stoicism or masculinity if there are no challenges, emotional difficulties, or pains to overcome, or with nobody to protect. Masculinity isn't about being a murderous badass. That is just psychopathy. It isn't "hard" masculinity. Masculinity is self sacrifice in defense of something you care about - in a very physical way. When a father works 12 hours a day to make sure his family has a good future, he is masculine. Not when he gets drunk and beats up someone who shit-talked him. In fact, being emotional is more of a feminine trait. Kratos isn't masculine when he's rage-killing. He's just being a psychopath. The same with Guts. When they're killing to defend someone they love from evil forces, knowing he might die in the process? Yeah, that is masculine. You're taking a strawman, that being that masculinity is violence, and then attacking that with your so-called "soft" masculinity. This arch of having men reduce their role as aggressors, into protectors, has been part of myth, story telling and nature since time immemorial.
Kratos is another great example of this phenomena. In the last 2 games he’s still masculine af but on the basis of protecting his son, and guiding towards a better path than he took. Not only that, but learning to control your rage and trauma. Learning to care again after being hurt in the worst way
This is perfect. Kratos is a quintessential example of a shift between traditional masculinity and present day version of it. He is not afraid to be wrong to to apologise or to be vulnerable. But he has an inner honor and creates an aura of trust and security. Former Kratos was unhinged and lacked self control but was manly and strong AF.
@@rocketi05 this is all wrong. He is a complete mature man, all the rage of his first game was masculine yes but also childlike, he couldn't control his rage. He's matured a lot. Masculinity is masculinity regardless of age
@@Zokalex Men in Malaysia often platonically hold hands. Like, just two mates or co-workers. You can't tell me most people in the West wouldn't find this unmasculine. Yet in Malaysia it is masculine. Masculinity is culturally and historically dependent. One man's masculinity is another's femininity.
The hair bridge trait is spot on. Especially when Bill is having dinner with Frank for the first time and Bill does the cute little hair tuck behind his ear. It’s like classic flirting 101 but also like he’s aware of his appearance at the moment as well, and wants to make sure his hair looks good
I think the thing I noticed about Bill was that he isn't willing compromise on his standards, no matter what is going on. He isn't primping his hair, he's maintaining grooming standards even with the world going to shit around him. That's how I read it. Does he have someone to cut his hair? No. Does that mean he's just going to be unkempt and gross? Absolutely not. He has a certain way of seeing himself, and the standard he sets for himself within his principles, but it's suddenly being aware that someone else is once again objectively seeing him that makes him tuck his hair back. If he didn't have those principles, he wouldn't have cared, and him making that gesture wouldn't make sense. But it's because we've seen how he lives with intention that the intentional move in the presence of someone he wants to see him a certain way makes it that much more poignant.
Mob psycho 100 made me realize what true masculine support looked like, the show is full of positive male role models, friends and examples of true self love and respect. If you haven’t watched it you really should, it’s amazing.
i love the way that each character in bullet train is written. they're all very masculine traditionally but defy the expectation for hardened assassins by being caring, flawed, and human. clementine loves thomas the tank engine but can absolutely kill a guy. ladybug is witty and smart but will admit when he's made mistakes and is guided by a woman he respects. great movie
I’ve always wondered about these things that you are calling bridge traits. Like cooking, being culturally refined, dancing, things like that seem to be to only be masculine if you’re super good at them. It’s masculine to be a head chef but not to be learning to cook at home. It’s masculine to be an amazing singer but not to start taking voice lessons. It’s masculine to be a phenomenal break dancer but not to just move to the music in a silly way. And I don’t understand why.
That's really interesting, my immediate thought is that this means these traits are much more about mastery/domination/competition over anything having to do with the interests themselves. Doesn't get more masculine than competing for domination against male peers -- what you're competing at doesn't really matter: could be sports, could be romance, could be shooting a crumpled paper into a garbage can.
Right but I’ve never seen being mediocre at, for example, basketball being framed as emasculating in media. It’s ok to just goof around and have fun and be bad at it. But in a movie the second someone finds out you are bad at, say, dancing you get made fun of. So there seems to be these two distinct groups of traits or skills. Things that it is not typically emasculating to engage with at a novice level. And things that it is only manly to engage with at a high level. This makes me wonder if having mastery of a skill or trait within a typically feminine domain is associated with mastery Over women not just competition with other men. And that is what makes it fit within a masculine archetype.
@@robertzarfas9556 have you considered that our culture generally likes to mock inaptitude, regardless of gender? women who fail get laughed at just the same.
@@schnee1 Dominance has been the norm, but it is often performative. We are gravitating more towards authentic interests. There is no substitute for true passion and we are recognizing that.
I wonder if the dad from Bluey is admissible to this theory. I mean, it's a kids show, so it doesn't touch on the darker notes of the theme (i.e. single, reluctant, troubled, etc.), but he's still a father figure who prioritizes his children above all else, with traditional male values (likes watching sports on TV, ripping up stumps with friends, etc.) while also engaging in some bridge traits (situational aloofness that is more Dad energy than Loner energy, willingness to be embarrassed, extremely nurturing etc.)
Bandit immediately came to my mind as an excellent example of what schnee is discussing here. He's very traditionally masculine in many of the ways described - he's assertive, physical, hard working, protective, etc. But he's become something of an icon among modern dads because he's also unapologetically loving, nurturing, emotionally open, and playful. I'm not sure if the latter count as "bridge traits" the way schnee defines them, exactly - they seem more like traditionally-nonmasculine traits that Bluey's writers are consciously trying to establish *are not* (or at least shouldn't be seen as) "nonmasculine." But Bandit is absolutely a modern masculine figure of the sort that were discussed in this video, and in a way, maybe the best evidence that this is truly a cultural shift, since he appears in a children's cartoon rather than a genre more commonly associated with transgressive or countercultural perspectives like dark HBO dramas. (By the way, if anyone here hasn't watched it, Bluey's wonderful. Far more than a run of the mill kid's show about talking dogs.)
It’s a children’s show. You know, like, for kids…? It’s not that deeply thought out. I would also hope that in a show for children, the child’s actual father would fit into the ‘protector role’. That’s literally his job.
@@Daisy-uj2rt Have you watched the show? Bandit is certainly a "protector," but he's far from a stereotypical Western dad. And that's kind of the point. Also, profoundly disagree with the idea that children's shows shouldn't be "deeply thought out." If anything, there's a bigger responsibility with something that children will be watching to make sure that what you're conveying is carefully considered. And "Bluey" is *fantastic* at this - they approach every topic they've covered with nuance and empathy (for both the children and adult characters alike), far beyond any other kid's show I've watched with my child, and oftentimes beyond 95% of adult programming out there.
@@peteryang5056 No I haven’t watched the show. Because I’m an adult. I hope you enjoyed learning the deeply thought out storyline & plot of your ABC’s, and how it’s good to share..
Something to add to your theory: I've noticed that a very popular (if not CENTRAL) trend/theme in stories, to this very day, is found family. It comes in several forms; adoption, community, friendship, romance, and so on. It's all about finding the right people who you can feel comfortable around, who you can be your true, authentic self with, and it says a lot about people's desire to feel safe. So many people experience abuse, betrayal, fear, loss, and so many more awful things regardless of privilege (not to imply everyone experiences the same amount of hardships, but we've all gone through some form of tragedy due to the nature of the world we live in.) We all have been dealt a shitty hand and lack of stability, some from day one, which leads to a longing for "the right crowd." We strive for the love we've been missing, people who won't betray us at a toss of a coin, and like you mentioned, proper role models and true integrity. We're tired of feeling lost, so we naturally look for comfort in the movies, shows, games, books, and other stories we consume in our daily lives, causing found family to persist beyond most tropes.
In Modern family, Cam is fiercely protective of his family and also loves sports and grew up doing farm work. He is dramatic and campy, but he also displays masculine interests.
I personally haven't seen it a lot in mainstream media so correct me if y'all have seen more of it than me, but this video really makes me hope we can get fathers showing honest to God affection and love (physical and emotional) towards their sons while not feeling as though that doing so "devalues their worth as a man". SPOILERS FOR GOD OF WAR: RAGNAROK: The only recent example I can think of is Kratos with Atreus in God of War: Ragnarok. It's sprinkled throughout but there are moments where gruff, rough, and tough Kratos shows tenderness and vulnerability to Atreus and they are NEVER made a big deal of. They just are. Favorite moment has to be when the bear Kratos fought off near the beginning turns out to be Atreus having accidentally transformed. Soon after, Kratos, having been panicked and horrified at what he could have done, tenderly caresses his son's face and softly and regrettably tells him, "I could have killed you." Man has really come a long ways. 😭
Me too. Most the examples in this video are father daughter relationships or brother brother. We need those father son relationships not just for their own sake but also to avoid patriarchy tropes that female characters have to be protected.
Yeah this is interesting because I know in conversations about SA or violence in America, we think about how these boys are being raised. Showing the male product (a responsible caring father figure of a man) is a step but we should also start showing how those people are created.
I'm a girl with autism. Which helps me understand men a little better. I don't show affection and love openly like normal women cause my brain is wired differently. Men don't either. Cause men aren't women.
_Avatar 2_ has fantastic depictions of what you’re taking about, and it’s as mainstream as mainstream gets (#3 top-grossing movies of all time). Jake Sully is a family *man* through and through.
I like this very much. I find myself looking back at parts of relationships with my guy friends. I tend to compliment people if i like something about them, whether I know them well or not. I didn't know until a friend told me that guys don't really get compliments at all, which is so sad. I bring this up because i told a friend, after he walked me home after dark for the 4rth time in a row and never pushed or wanted anything from me, that he made me feel safe. He beamed, I'll never forget the look on his face, the smile he had, the way he puffed up his shoulders. I'd seen him play futbol and get compliments that washed off him in seconds. I also once told him he had a classic kind of handsome to him, like if he was a star from the 50s. he still brings that up... its been 5 years
@@SailorDoggo LOL 'Hero' in the classic greek sense not the Modern moral sense. John Wick is basically the action hero version of 'Don't Tread on me!' But funny enough he fits in with the Masculine guy with bridge traits paradigm as outside of his murder rampage super-humaness... he's a basically a quiet single guy doting on his dog.
@@nak3dxsnake true we could call him a murder butt they killed his dog which us stated in the movie its technically his word which they killed which was a no go. So technically he falls in the protector role even if it was a dog not human.
While I agree with a lot of points in the creators video, I think he was a bit too selective and narrow when it came to the characteristics of masculinity. John wick embodies a lot of traits that weren’t listed that are still valued by men. He’s domineering, has silent perseverance, is a problem solver, has a strong air of self-sacrifice, has mastery of himself and leverages it over his situation. He’s a power fantasy to be sure, but he is also a male role model audiences can project onto.
I love that I don’t even have to have watched the lasts of us to understand and still get value out of this video. Schnee is an excellent writer and presenter of information in that way and I just wanted to bring up my appreciation for it!
I think Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings, namely Viggo Mortensen's Aragorn and Sean Bean's Boromir are pinnacle of manliness. They were strong, they were leaders, yet could be gentle and kind and vulnerable.
God stop, just remembering the look on Boromir's face when Frodo has vanished and he realizes what had come over him is enough to make me start sobbing... Bless Sean Bean for such a great portrayal.
I think what’s also interesting is the departure from the traditional “Hero’s Journey”. In the end, the hero wins and takes his place outside of society and is unable to truly renter it (Frodo and Luke being peak examples). But now we want to see male figures become apart of communities which can be seen mostly in the Heroines journey. We want to see Joel and Ellie belong to a town and be safe. We want El and Hopper to be in Hawkins with their weird little group. It’s really beautiful and genuinely makes me happy
I love this concept of Bridge traits. It adds so much to the characters and yet can be overlooked so so easily. I also love how you brought up the idea of the associations between straight and gay tendencies and identity. I remember a quote from Toby Stephens, one of the stars of the absolutely amazing Starz show, Black Sails (Which demonstrates so many of these new ideas of masculinity and more, good god, that show has changed my entire life). He talks about how so many people were confused when his character was revealed to be queer, as he was such a traditionally masculine character at the start (Though there are so many bridge traits hidden in there on closer inspection). He says, though not a completely direct quote, something along the lines of "People forget that a man can be two things at once."
came into this expecting a tate fan crying about masculine queer people, but you subverted my expectations in an amazing way. Extremely well put together video!
Millennials have come of age. When we were kids we read coming of age stories that explored the transition from childhood to adult. Now that we’re here we need stories to guide us how to be adults. Look no further than the first The Last of Us game and the God of War reboot.
The most popular cartoon character today I'd say is Bandit from Bluey because he is a dad who gets on his kids levels to play with them which is very unique for adults portrayed in cartoons.
Bandit is great. You can tell that the writers for Bluey are in fact parents themselves. I'm more than happy to play the part of Bandit witb my kids. He encourages his kids imaginations and I try to do the same.
Amazing video as always. Whenever I think masculinity, I think it of a My Hero Academia character Eijirou Kirishima. There’s a video essay dedicated to how he depicts masculinity and it’s worth the watch. I’m happy how masculinity has been redefined as of recent. It’s a breath of fresh air.
Oh my GAHD! THAT'S MY BABY THEIR TALKING ABOUT! *cough. Yes! That is what I like so much about Kirishima as well! He loves manly stuff and calls even girls being manly. To him manly is gender neutral and him being friends and hinted as having romantic feelings with Bakougo, a character with a lot of toxic male traits, says a lot. They balance each other is what Im saying. Bakugo respects Kiri while he abhors Midoriya (which is really unhealthy for the fandom shipping them as well) I could gush on but I'll just leave it there for now. Basically whats more manly than falling for a fellow man?
@@dandelionmosssycamore8218 I don't think its been hinted at that they have romantic feelings, they've only really ever been shown in friendly terms, the closet kiri has had to romantic feelings has been shown with mina, but even then its still not certain basically just gonna say don't really treat those relationships that may not exist as the truth of it, it'll confuse people or worse annoy certain others.
It's funny. As a writer I find that I myself have been contributing to this trend without realizing. You really nailed the reasons why this is happening, I think.
Right? I was surprised to see his character summary and find that it matched the male characters I'm writing pretty much to a T. The idea of bridging traits wasn't something I'd thought of consciously but it's something I'll keep in mind from now on as it seems useful.
Figuring out what it means to be a man is always going to be complex, and right now with such big social change occurring, that is more true than ever. I heard some advice recently that: "To be a man, you should be honest. Being honest to others is easy, but the hardest thing a man may ever have to do is to be honest with himself".
Oh my god, my dad used to throw that line at me all the time as a teen and i HATED it . . .probably because it was so true. Now that I'm grown up and can finally admit some things to myself, its nice to know his rough nuggets of wisdom weren't totally wasted on me.
Thank you for another beautiful, thoughtful video ...that touches both an analysis and exploration of a specific piece of media, but takes the time to zoom out to how it 'fits' into the times it was birthed it. I really resonated with your point that we do need different things from our (male) characters these days -- we're looking for integrity in a time when masks are coming down, as you point out. I so appreciate the analyses you are doing. Keep it up - these stories are fun to explore together. Also - awesome that you're visiting Panama right now (as another mixed-race kid, with a mother from Panama), it's cool to see you enjoying a place I have connection with. Enjoy your travels!
A friend once invited me to a gay bar at Mexico DF (I'm trans... I didn't quite fit in there)... but that's where I first saw the "BEARS". A bear is a very specific type of gay. Utter masculine gays, they pride themselves on being corpulent, strong or robust, full of hair and large beards. That was over 15 years ago and bear culture had been around for…well, for as long as the LGBT community has been around as a rights group. In other words, for many decades. These characters do not represent a "new masculinity"... they are the visibility of this group of gays, who break the stereotype according to which gays must be effeminate or very delicate men. Now, this presents another paradigm: if you're a straight man, you can still be sensitive, artistic, having home skills and caring about your loved ones, while still being masculine. Without ceasing to be a man, without ceasing to be straight. That can also stem from this episode.
Dude what a freaking awesome video. You hit on so many great points about society today. Masculinity as someone whose 54 I remember trying to be overly masculine and getting in fights and chasing his many women as I could at once. The most masculine thing I ever did was be myself, marry the woman I'm still in love with till this day. Raise our two children and try to be a father figure and a friend now you're not always going to succeed at any of these but you do your best. And that's what being masculine to me means now as opposed to when I was 18.
You’re point about bridge traits was very interesting. They definitely feel like a good way to make a character who initially fits into one stereotype naturally develop in our minds as we learn more about them. Not all characters need to change like that in the eyes of the audience to have their own character development, but it’s a very good way to make a character feel like they had already developed past the point we expected when they were introduced. Waymond from “Everything Everywhere” for example is a good way to subvert masculinity by initially giving him non-masculine traits. But, by the end they show that he is assertive and driven. Even going further to have him explain that his kindness does not come from a naive understanding of the world, but rather a desire to fight for a kinder future.
See that's the thing I have trouble explaining in real life: Just because I'm gay doesn't mean I like to do makeup or brush my hair to perfection every morning or wear tight-fitting clothes. I like being masculine and I'm attracted to masculinity. That's it, nothing more and nothing less, but people have a REALLY hard time understanding that. Also being artistic is not a gay trait, fuckin' Orion. I draw big sweaty men too, alright? All forms are important.
I have no clue how long it took to make this video, but watching it feels like a mountain of work. The video is demanding, because its pace is fast, but combined with the voice AND the on-screen texts, schnee is able to present this topic in 25 min, whereas it would take others 45+ min to do the same. It’s why I love this guys‘ videos so much. Not only are the videos very demanding of attention and focus, but they also are packed from start to finish with very detailed and fleshed out arguments. Schnee always raises a thesis or a claim and proceeds to bring forward loads of evidence, interlinking his claims until he has build a very strong front for his arguments. Finding things to counter on, to disprove his claims, would take a shit load of time and I‘m not even sure you‘d be able to find something to dig up, just because the level of attention and detail this man puts into his thesis’s and therefore his videos. Expertly well done content and I have mad respect for the work put behind it!
This is such a fantastic cross examination. Now I am very LGBTQi+ supportive, and I have to say the way they directed this was perfection, the way it's meant to dawn on you then go ooOOHH!.... It was so refreshingly unexpected and jarring, but in a great way. That quintessential "Gays act like gays in hollywood not manly" is why even i felt the pull of that ingrained cognitive dissonance of all that has come before, but all round, this is a great breakdown of these concepts in popular media 👏👏
First video I've seen of yours and I paused right in the middle of it when you were talking about Arcane, then proceeded to watch the entirety of Arcane, and now I'm back to watch the second half of this video lmao! I do have to say Arcane was fantastic and I can't wait to see your video on it
Nick Offerman's character was less surprising to me since I was aware of the whole "bear" subculture among the gay demographic. It makes perfect sense that a guy who likes other guys would find masculine traits as attractive. Like, isn't that the whole point of the attraction? Regardless, I think it's just a cool different angle to take that makes the character stand out more.
On the surface it makes sense, but at the same time attraction is just too weird, I feel. Is a straight guy who's attracted to a hyper-butch experiencing some "quasi-homosexual attraction"? Me being weak to androgynous people making me fall outside any attraction norms whatsoever? Okay, maybe the last one is true. Almost makes me feel like it's a shame that "effeminate guy" is still considered a humorous characterization, at the least, in media. At least previously it was tied to homosexuality and, thus, was kinda, sorta normalized within those boundaries. Nowadays? I wouldn't say it's drastically changed and androgynous guys are persecuted even in queer communtities (from my experience), but it may lead to a displacement of that position, without ways to normalize it under some other, more established, identity. That was a very unrelated tangent, sorry.
@@thosebloodybadgers8499 We can make a distinction between hyper butch women and tomboys. I see a lot of love for tomboys, who physically are still pretty feminine, but become more masculine or androgynous in their attitudes and interests. That's still solidly hetero to me. But the hyper butch sorta implies the physical body is also masculine, so the question is whether the attraction is because of the masculine traits or despite them. It might even be because of completely different factors. I don't think the categories are black and white, ultimately my approach is just "you like what you like" I find androgynous people pretty attractive as well, lol. Men with long hair are nice, too.
Thanks for another interesting and insightful video! When you started describing what you think we're all wanting these days (to feel safe from outside threats and at peace within our own minds), I got a little emotional. At the very least, you hit the nail on the head for me. I've always loved the principled, honorable male characters I come across in media. What it boils down to for me is him having "a heart of gold and a spine of steel". I love male characters that are kind and real in the face of terrible things. Honestly hoping this trend continues!
as a trans woman, YES, i totally agree. ive been wondering about how masculinity had been changing and you hit the nail on the head. and for what it is, i love that you recognize the need to feel safe for us all.
id say cam himself is a subversion, yes he act flamboyantly usually, but he also was a college football player, is a coach and i an episode about mitch being bullied at a gas station, he goes hyper aggressive(in full clown makeup) on a bully and sends the guy running, showing that underneath the feminine presentation, he can get real (traditionally)manly real fast. modern family loves to play with those things, they introduce a trope straight and then completely undercut it for a joke or a lesson.
My thoughts on the episode are just: wow. I personally think its a masterpiece and the hour long run time is not waisted in any of the scenes in terms of the singular episode story and the bigger story with joel and ellie. I was trying to break it down and analyze this episode for myself and u just put into words some of the things i couldn’t quite articulate but took from the message of the story. Great video!
I highly enjoyed this commentary, and I really appreciate seeing good masculine men in modern entertainment without being reduced to boring and flat action hero tropes. I think it’s important to bring back the ideas and values of strength and protectiveness, but it’s also important to show the audience of young men that there are many ways to accomplish a masculine role. I’ve noticed a sore lack of strong male role models in recent years, and shows like Arcane have been a breath of fresh air!
I think that for men to be a homosexual(top) is the most manly thing ever. Like "no pussys allowed at MY territory" . And it's literally the end of the world, society was ruined, almost no one survived. 2 men kind relationship doubles up your chances
An additional aspect might be the achievability of it all. We are not talking about one rising to the occasion on one extraordinary event but everyday caring and putting protectee's needs first. Challange rises from necessary consistancy for maintaining those principles, decent prioritization of what's important and finding balance between giving space to grow vs protecting. Though it's difficult, it can be done and finding heroism in those everyday things feels refreshing to me. This video helped me pinpoint what drew me on these stories so much, so thanks for that!
The way i rationalize this change is we are now seeing less rigid male characters. Men that don't just follow a set of social rules of how to be, but that are comfortable expressing themselves in whatever way they feel like. They could adopt more "traditionally feminine" qualities but that is not a big deal. They are humans, complete characters that know themselves and don't have to be a rigid all angry macho man
I do want to thank you for bringing up Elvis on this because that's not something really mentioned all that often. The actor did a fantastic job of portraying him all throughout, but there was something about his most early days that really captured female attention. Someone called it 'feminine masculinity', and I have to agree with that. Look at real Elvis when he was younger and not the drugged up Vegas version: a soft face, wide eyes, full lips. And yes, he did wear makeup. He looked vulnerable. Different from the hypermasculine norm that was pushed at the time. He embodied that sexiness in a way that was new to a lot of these girls. Which is why it's so confusing that nowadays, he's sort of seen as this all american hyper masculine singer that only men and older people like. It's very interesting I mean he still was a pedophile and i hope he burns in hell forever and ever but that doesn't erase the point
In the show, in the after-credits thing, they said that Bill was dead when Ellie got to his town, but he wasn't dead. His "partner" was dead but he was very much still alive when Ellie got there.
this is SUPER interesting! tlou ep 3 meant a lot to me, to see two gay men grow old together. i feel like 'our flag means death' would fit SO well into this analysis, with two male main characters who eventually have a romance, and how they both express their masculinity or lack thereof!
I think you're actually right about the hair - for one, there's two scenes where he slightly fixes his hair / runs his fingers through it after meeting Frank, both I think are minor anxious gestures done to show that on SOME level he's aware that he's being seen by this other guy, and he's getting those butterfly-in-the-stomach feelings. Of course he has to pretend he's not given that it's the apocalypse, but it seemed to convey a kind of... interest/self consciousness in him I think. Also it's minor but all the 'wild' hair examples have a straight part, it's basically 'I have long hair and I don't care' so it falls wherever - vs. Bill's which especially later in the show is intentionally parted on the side, showing an inherent intent since it's not just falling down with no natural course correction. The part to me says intention. Intention shows thought. I think I'm probably a bit older than you and from what I've lived through, your analysis is very valid; I'm sure there are outliers, there always will be, but the point of trends is taking the broad strokes. Broadly you're accurate in your depiction of what was most popular/desired at the time by the general masses, or at least uplifted easily as 'acceptable' and 'worth wanting to be like'. Aka you weren't going to get any guff for wanting to be like the guys from X movie. I remember how media 'got dumb' after 9/11, it was like no one wanted to feel deep thoughts or do anything that might shake them out of the furious pro-America stupor they were in ~ even the comedy that was supposed to be commentary was really pulling it's punches and subtly agreeing with the pro-America message, in like a 'yeah sure some of it's kinda bad but ultimately it's good' kind of way. I'm glad to see the shift in trends though, honestly the characters for the 2000's / MCU era have been incredibly boring and uninteresting to get invested in. I'd far rather see the Silco's and the Joel's stories told, they're much more compelling IMO.
THIS IS AN AMAZING VIDEO. Also I think your theory on why masculinity is written like this is pretty on point. I’m not living in a western country, I live in the Philippines where we have this incredibly popular actor making action movies and shows. Everyone watches his stuff and I mean EVERYONE. I’ve seen the elderly and even whole families watch his stuff if it was PG rated. In his newest show the main character’s masculinity is written EXACTLY the way you described. Another thing I realized is that different cultures will emphasize and de-emphasize certain masculine traits. Like you said western characters are usually protectors/single dads, I think for our case our male heroes are written like altruistic romcom heroes. This is a pretty loose interpretation of this but I also have a theory about it. Western viewers want to be protected by the father figures, Filipino viewers see themselves in the male hero and help their community. That’s just how I see it tho. it would be nice to see other people talk about writing trends in their own cultures.
The way you talk about bridge traits makes me want to get writing!! I wanna try them out and use them to write my make characters, or heck, you can use them on any gender to subvert societal expectations more naturally rather than forced! Awesome vid!!
I took a whole class on the history of masculinity in film and it was so interesting. It is amazing to see how the depiction of masculinity in media is shifting right before our eyes. Great video!
As it was said many times by people smarter than me, traditional gender roles act as a barrier more often than not. You can't be masculine if you're emotional, you can't be feminine if you're assertive and so on. Of course, that mostly relates to real people, but it also means we keep getting the same characters over and over again. So it's a nice thing that it's slowly changing, both from the characters in media side and the actual real person side.
Its kinda nice to see, you can be a very productive member of society and not be purely masculine, like I may be a 6’4” 290 brick shithouse but i like wearing pink and having long hair, and even have a boyfriend, but I still do my best to be a rolemodel to my more traditional family because you can be a positive role model and not be perfectly traditional, what matters is if you’re a capable person, strong not just physically but generally. Its important to find the balance and its nice to see we’re moving away from completely cucked males and also not going back to “you will live a miserable life forced in a tiny box and you will die miserable”
As a hetero adult who grew up camping, playing video games, reading comics, excelling at sports, curious about learning everything, making things with my hands eg. art, food, hobbies etc., fashion and looking nice, being empathetic, having feelings and not being afraid to express them I have largely found in my 30s that everyone should be able to like everything* without scrutiny if it makes you happy. Some of the most miserable people I know feel like they need to fit into a mold that they simply aren't compatible with and I think that's the point. Everyone, regardless of who they feel they are deep down, should just be themselves. The more we be ourselves, the less everyone in the world will expect everyone else to be a certain way. * Probably shouldn't like crimes or murder, that's a grey area lol.
Your theory reminded me about Tony Stark, the character that made Marvel what it is. His revolution over the films he appeared in correlates very well to your proposal of the development of modern masculinity trends.
I think a great character that you missed in your examples is Jet from Cowboy Bebop. He's a tough looking bounty hunter that still has time to care for his bonsais. He's an ex cop, with ghosts from his past, but enjoys cooking and listening to jazz music. He's also the dad figure that holds the rest of the Bebop team together.
I love seeing male characters im the father/protector archetype. I remember even as a child loving finding nemo becaise Marlin was such a cool dad. One of the things that upset me the most about society is the amount of fathers who choose not to be present in their children's lives. And there are so many men like that. It's so sad.
An easy note to add, about patterns; notice how *all* the old badasses, everyone from characters as irredeemably monstrous as Kratos, to edgy loners like Sol Badguy, to Batman's entire character from where it slipped into twitchy sociopath in the 2010s, are getting happy endings? Kratos goes from "literally just the villain" to a parent and a complete person capable of remorse. Sol from edgy cool loner guy in Everything Sucks World to regaining most of what he lost and then some, surrounded by people who care about him. Batman's writing is changing towards the overwhelming fan sentiment of "this man has the biggest family in the comics, and he would act like it". Hell, Vergil from Devil May Cry has only ever been interesting *because* of the subtext of fear and vulnerability, and fear OF vulnerability, under his stereotypical badass traits. Devil May Cry 5 is *about* forcibly dragging character's insecurities into the open, and getting them what they need to be whole. Hell, Nero is literally the "guy whose wife is fine, just absent, and he is empowered by thinking about her" meme. And the other examples shown in the video. These happier arcs are limited, of course, because a character defined primarily by violence and action can only be shifted into so many other archetypes and still have it be satisfying. But it's still a consistent pattern across the board. Turns out feminism and adjacent philosophies were right; the world wants, or is starting to want, men who mean more than *just* an ability to punch better than the other guy. Men who you'd actually want around, in a society or a team or a family. And especially in the case of characters like Kratos, the end result is a much, MUCH better character across the board. It's one of the first big *good* signs in popular culture we've had in a long time.
The issue is the man has to understand violence and troubles with becoming monsterous then with age and surviving. Then they're able to teach. Yet what they teach is how one to protect themselves. Violence is needed as an outlet yet that's where discipline comes in. Feminism failed them ideals based around martial combat, fitness and nature helps men better. Basically men need to be able to grow into themselves gain perspectives without being demanded to be one way. It's why sports, martial arts, building, hands on artwork, and working with people really is helpful for boys.
Something these points made me think of is an archetype I love in anime (you brought up sanji so I was thinking of it!) which seems to be the highly convicted, and noble acting male character that no matter how strong and badass he is can and will die for a cause. I can't think of too many examples off the top of my head (tho the obscure dog anime ginga densetsu weed is rife with these characters) but One piece def has them in spades in the side characters. I think you have a great point with this idea! Would love to see more examples in other media too, or just have it happen more haha
I remember when the two in Last of Us first met and I was jokingly yelling at the screen "Kiss! Kiss Kiss!" One scene later and they actually start leaning in and I was like "YES!!!! KISS KISS KISS!" The episode was so well done. Such good representation.
@@vismattress5760 and when he finds Frank's dead body he seems to mourn about it for like 2 secs and then goes "well, fuck him!" 💀 Even loosing a friend in that situation would be devastating, let alone your romantic partner. No one could simply brush it off like that.
@@vismattress5760 I honestly had forgotten. I remember the opening (how could one forget!?). I feel like all the zombie games and movies have blurred together for me.
LOL, I had a similar reaction where I was like, "MAN, this would be *such* a great start to a romance!! Too bad they won't go there..." and then they DID, I was SO excited 😂. Also had a laugh cuz a friend I was watching it with had already seen the episode, and he KNEW that's what I would've been thinking and so my excited reaction was exactly what he predicted, which I found hilarious ;p. Also, definitely cried about 3 times during the episode 😭😭😭
This is an amazing analysis. Men don't have to abandon everything in the category of masculinity- we should have the capacity to embody all of those traits when the time is appropriate, and also be able to embody traits in the feminine category when the time is appropriate. the toxicity does not come from "masculine" traits themselves, it comes from when men are FORCED to embody all of those traits 24/7 without being allowed to tap into natural human emotions like sadness and vulnerability without feeling shame and embarrassment. To be a truly well integrated man (and person in general) is to be in touch with the full scope of one's emotions and roles- having the capacity to be assertive, dominant, aggressive, AND caring, nurturing, and gentle- and also having the maturity and wisdom to know how and when to manifest them. This is the new masculinity- not a 180 degree change, just a shift. An improvement. Keeping the good, evolving beyond the bad, having a deeper integration of the authentic self, and the letting go of shame for being in touch with the full scope of your humanity. This is the new masculinity.
I think a part of this shift, and I do agree that you’re onto something there, is a result of not having a clear definition of positive masculinity in the public consciousness. The last decade and a half spent a lot of time talking about toxic masculinity and deconstructing the tropes and social issues around it, but didn’t have a good answer for what should replace them. Some have gone so far as to suggest that all masculinity is toxic, while others cling to the worst aspects of the old paradigm as a means of rebellion against what they see as an assault on their culture. Both approaches are deeply flawed, and I think most reasonable people can see that, but we’ve had a hard time finding a solution. I personally like the current trajectory of modern positive masculinity, and I hope we get more stories like Bill and Frank.
It's the irony of it all if they let men be men. Instead of telling men be more like women then men could find their way. Which is better than them rebelling versus something that they didn't need to rebel against. Since boys know how to make friends, boy from my own perspective don't like being mocked by girls. Since they're the ones that questioned a man's masculinity the most. Since I remember me hanging out in most group of guys when I was younger we were comfortable around each other and there was no real issues. We didn't need to be like "girls" or over express our emotions we found a way to work with what we had.
@@migueljuarez6788 Gender doesn’t matter to some folks, sure, but gender expression and being able to express it in a meaningful way seems to be an important factor in maintaining mental health for a significant portion of the population. You could make the argument that gender roles are made up. I’d agree, insomuch that all of society is “made up.” But made up or no, it still matters, and not having a positive, affirming model for masculinity has almost certainly caused harm.
I love this video I actually sat through the whole thing cause it's so well crafted and wasn't just spewing junk without clarifying the thought process
This is an awesome analysis overall, but regarding post-9/11 invulnerability: Diary of a Wimpy Kid did come out in 2007. Scott Pilgrim graphic novel in 2004, film in 2010. Inkheart & Kite Runner were published bestsellers in 2003. David Sedaris memoirs were best selling in 2004. The Da Vinci Code was ubiquitous in 2005. I understand the could be novelties, but when I looked into the entire fiction bestseller list for each year, they didn’t stand out as anomalies. Just the ones I was most familiar with. In film, 2002’s box office toppers were Spider Man (Toby Macguire!), Attack of the Clones, Signs, Austin Powers, Men in Black, Scooby Doo…2003: Finding Nemo, Bruce Almighty, Elf (though Terminator 3, Bad Boys 2, Hulk, Fast & Furious were also there - lower - on that list)…2004: Shrek 2, one of the Harry Potters, The Incredibles, Shark Tale, though we also had the Bourne Supremacy & Troy. 2005: Madagascar, Hitch, King Kong. This isn’t cherry picking; it’s just reading the ranked list looking for any action-esque films. I went on year by year after & didn’t see any shift in this vibe. I’d actually noticed an opposite trend around that era (deroy/dorky/cowardly antiheroes in greater proliferation, esp in comedy), so wanted to fact check & see which was more accurate, at least in terms of prevailing culture. Because we all remember eras a little differently; we experienced our own versions, our own subcultural slices. I think looking at top grossing & best sellers lists provides some objectivity. (For instance, the “more loser protagonists” pattern I imagined wasn’t much of a change either; I was just more sensitized given the popularity of Michael Cera characters, Ben Stiller characters, Jonah Hill, bad Dreamworks art & Diary of a Wimpy Kid). Incidentally, Cera’s great - no shade - just part of a larger meme. But otherwise, I love your videos & think this analysis in particular is spot on.
This will sound a bit weird but I think that Bill and Frank are the first gay characters I've seen where I only focus on the story between them and not on the fact that they are gay. it feels like the writers did a great job of making their relationship seem realistic and not forced with over the top character traits which makes it painfully obvious that they are gay. This sort of depiction is exactly how it should be done to empower gay people, not that over the top shit which I and many other people only see as something close to mockery of gay people.
Yes it was a perfect episode it just showed the love between two people and it doesn’t matter that they were both guys because the way the episode went it was all good they were nice and they were happy with eachother and they went out peacefully together in a zombie show and that’s soemthing you don’t see often it was great and had nothing to do with just gay character being pushed down people throats and stuff it was perfect
The part you're missing when talking about whether masculinity is changing or western ideas of masculinity are changing or however you want to phrase it is the specifics of how this character and his portrayal came to be. Bill, in the video game source material, was not initially designed as a gay man. The series creator Neil Druckman has, on record, said that he did not create Bill as gay and considered Frank as a "best friend", but later at a table read due to interpretations of the character by the voice actor (W. Earl Brown), who "infused queerness" into the character, made the change. The "queerness" was left subtly referenced in the game and not made an overt character trait, but could be inferred through various references to Bill and Frank's relationship. So the character traits that you call "traditionally masculine" were all things created for this character BEFORE he was written to be gay, so any intention there to say that homosexuality was being included as a part of a traditionally masculine character with any intent as far as cultural trends go is false. Following on from that, the director of the TV show has gone on record saying that you have to "trick" people into watching a gay love story, and so the introduction of the character and all his traditional masculine qualities before you find out he is gay is less about showing that "homosexuality" is part of "traditional" masculinity and more about USING traditional masculinity AS A RED HERRING to make people not "realise" they are watching a gay romance story. It's quite literally the opposite of what you say. To be clear here, I'm not saying that homosexual men can't be masculine, I have personally known some who are. I'm saying that cultural trends have not changed to think of homosexuality as being masculine (let alone *traditionally* masculine), or vice versa, and ESPECIALLY not in hollywood where gay men still follow all the same tropes you list in this very video. People still very much think of homosexual = effeminate and the media has a big role to play in that for always defaulting to quick and easy stereotypes so they can check their diversity box. I would have a hard time believing that Bill's other atypical traits for a masculine man were added with any intention towards showing those things as masculine, instead of because "well he's gay so lets put some feminine qualities in there." If you want to examine a homosexual character who does not check the cliche boxes of what a homosexual man in television is typically portrayed as, I strongly recommend looking at the character of Patrick from Schitt's Creek. One of my favourite characters (and couples, including his on-screen partner) of all time.
I don't really think your conclusions are supported here. Even if what you say about the original intent with Bill's character in the game is true (and I have never heard this before. Where did Neil say this?), it doesn't mean that the adaptation of Bill's character can't be written that way with intent. The adaptation is not wholly dependent on the intentions or motivations of the original. Bill's character was rewritten in a way that shows that homosexuality doesn't have to conflict with traditionally masculine traits. The adaptation decisions are what are being analyzed in this video. As for Mazin's comment about having to trick people into watching a gay love story, that doesn't make Bill's traditional masculinity a red herring. Those traits ARE present in his character until the end and they coexist with his homosexuality. The trick that Mazin is talking about is not a red herring, it's sneaking in something extra. The initial promise was telling a story of a traditionally masculine person surviving in the apocalypse and that NEVER changed. A red herring would be drawing you in with A, but then taking it away and giving you B instead. Mazin's trick was drawing you in with A and giving you B AS WELL while saying "hey look! A and B are not mutually exclusive". And that is not the opposite of the message of this video. It's literally the point. And I don't think that the trend that Schee was talking about is that hollywood is now presenting homosexuality as masculine. The trend is giving traditionally masculine men some traits that are traditionally not masculine without undermining their masculinity. You're absolutely right that hollywood still defaults to gay stereotypes and tropes.
Greetings from Panama! Thanks for sharing your footage of our canal, I'm glad you got to see a Panamax oil tanker and hope you enjoyed the rest of your visit to our country
I'm a trans guy, and while I've known it for a long time on some level, it really took me a long time to reckon with that, mostly because of how I don't align with much of the toxic masculinity that has been so prevalent in our culture for so long. Now, there's a whole rabbit hole of thought with that, but I would say that seeing the shift in what we as a society are willing to perceive as valid masculinity is something that helped me live openly as a man. It's been an interesting experience. Many of my cis guy friends have expressed a parallel experience, in that they are finally seeing themselves on screen more. Real men aren't cartoonish, and I like that our stories are willing to show men in all of our nuance. Edit: I'd also like to add that I think you're absolutely right about how many of us are craving a sense of safety and validation, and that the trend of protector figures is really on the ball with that. Maybe someday we won't feel like we need that anymore, but I'd be lying if I said that my favorite male characters these days aren't all protector figures. On one level, I want to protect my loved ones. On another, I want to feel protected. We all just want that safety.
Can I give a shout out to Uncle Iroh from Avatar the Last Airbender? He is a prime example of a cunning strong warrior and paternal figure, while also with an infatuating love of tea.
This is as masterful as all your other videos, but I especially appreciate this video in the climate of a push for hegemonic masculinity and claiming everything is feminizing men
I recommend you seek out Joseph Campbell's "Hero with a Thousand Faces", it's a quick read, and you clearly need some perspective on the historical/"traditional" masculine archetypes because you seem to be under the impression that tyranny has been the tradition model of ideal masculinity.... which is so completely wrong I don't even know where to begin to demonstrate how wrong it is; I cannot think of a single example, in the entire corpus of cultural myths/religions/narratives throughout history, that has presented the tyrant as the ideal masculine aspiration. The epic of Gilgamesh is literally the oldest story we have and the whole saga is about the transformation of Gilgamesh from a tyrant king to a benevolent king through a process of humiliation, loss, failure, and empathy.
@lancewalker2595 thanks for the rec, but I don't know where you got all that from from my comment. I specifically said hegemonic masculinity- a specific masculinity type. I also mentioned the climate of claiming everything is feminizing men.
@@hapikohw Yes, "hegemonic masculinity" is a specific type of masculinity, specifically the kind of masculinity defined exclusively through feminist projections consistent with their narrative of female oppression & male oppressors; it is hardly a very credible concept considering it's based on the presumption that masculinity has existed as a means of exploitation and oppression throughout history.
@lancewalker2595 Interesting, is there nothing to feminist theory and projections? Is there no specific type of masculinity that fits the hegemonic narrative or all of that hoopla is just nonsense? Also, I'm not sure R Connel identifies as a feminist, but is the sociologist who studied masculinities and men studies and coined hegemonic masculinity. Idk if you just want to rule out anything feminist or any type of masculinity analysis that you don't like...
@@hapikohw Frankly, no. The notion that there is any such thing as a general pattern in society of arbitrary male power established for the purposes of facilitating the oppression of females for the benefit of males is non-sense. For what purpose does this system of oppression operate? How is the oppression of women beneficial for men? To what end does this "hegemonic masculinity" operate, and what caused it to emerge as the default social paradigm at some point in the ancestral past?
I think the biggest complaint with the second game is that it undermined other males, especially Joel (narratively demonizing him for what he rather than punishing him for his consequences), for the sake of more self-indulgent nihilism. It needed this kind of writing. This show is really great, and I'm really glad you're covering it!
He wasnt demonized,he wad punished by the actions he made against other people (right or wrong,u have to understand that people seek out revenge like joel would do if someone killed ellie) and we can see during the game how the death of a man had heavy impact on a woman's mind like ellie(she has ptsd since she saw the execution)so yeah thinking that underminds other dudes its not correct
@@maccaroni3694 I know but then it falls into a nihilistic spiral of hatred and it just gets miserable. There's no "smiling through the tears," it's just nihilism. That's what Joel gave, and what Abbey should have had too, but she and Ellie just brought misery. That's the authentic reason people hated Abbey. The show is proving that it's not about being Woke, it's about the lights in people slowly dying out. In Last of Us Part II, they've been long since burnt out. It's not the road to hell, it's just hell. It's a lot easier to connect with falling angels than demons, you know?
@@hylianjim6484 yep, you pretty much nailed it with your description. Which is why I'm hoping the show does it better seeing as how you can clearly see the mistakes of what the games has done while also keeping the core message intact. Because contrary to popular belief, people don't hate tlou2 "revenge bad" they hate the poor execution of the "revenge bad" message
@@randomserbianguy5677 And what's more, WE know revenge is bad, the CHARACTERS know revenge is bad, so what direction are we going? We reach a foregone conclusion without any hope for something better for the characters. Can I be real? I'd have absolutely found the story better if the story was told from Dina's perspective, not Abbey's. Or maybe even Ellie, that'd have been an interesting take, it's still the two paths, but Ellie and Abbey became indistinguishable in their takes on the world, they're not two opposites of the same coin, there isn't even a coin, they're just angry and broke. Dina had hope, and knew she had to leave Ellie for a better tomorrow. Would have been cool to be physically make that decision. Think actually of that dynamic; Joel made the choice to fight for Ellie and it made him a monster. Dina made the choice to find a better life for their kid and choice to leave Ellie. Both made huge choices around Ellie; because Ellie's already fallen, that would at least show that the writers knew that there was SOMEONE who wanted something more than this cycle of abuse. Instead the story fed into it and practically celebrated in it. And the fact that the writers didn't care, means we didn't, except we did because the first game clearly left a huge impact on us, and it's like they spat in our faces for ever caring - and people trying to say something about 'wokeness' such as it is have new talking points that people with just the intent to feel deeply for these characters again. Joel knew he was already damned himself for Ellie, the narrative could have shown begrudged empathy for that - we didn't like it, and that you lied, Joel, but you were fighting for something. Now the them is that believing in anything at all makes you a monster, so just be a monster and skip that first step if having faith at all, because nothing matters. Meantime, we get characters like these in the TV show. It's night and day, and I'm grateful the TV show writers KNOW that and learned from the 2nd game's mistake.
Bill is the only extremely masculine gay man in pop media I can think of and I love him, the masculine queer man has almost always been bisexual and horny and I’d love to see masculinity and queerness meld for gay and gender queer characters Edit: also would like to see less horny bisexual men and women in media, the reduction of bisexuality to the sexual aspect is quite over done
Someone that I think falls in this category is Levi Ackerman From Attack on titan. Strong, Assertive, Leader and Protector yet also a clean freak and always dressed well. He also had that hair thing you mentioned. It's pretty interesting, good job putting together this video analysis. I might be able to change one of my novel characters to this archetype to make them more interesting.
