Mid level melee is crazy because its some crazy locals only foos that make no money from melee and have whole careers during the weekdays and kids. Grinding and playing with basically no incentive other than the love of the game.
@@EC_Tavo Closing in on 30 and this is me lol. b0xx because my hands hurt, grind occasionally, and go like 4-2 lol. As I get older I do not plan to ever quit, opting instead to use more and more cybernetic augments
I think Tech skill is still the backbone of melee. It’s just at the top level, execution matters a little less than neutral. Which means you only start seeing the bad tech flubs when somebody is losing.
I agree. Just because tech skill becomes easier or more people are getting better at it should not mean that it is less significant. Not only is it core to the gameplay, but that is what makes it stick out compared to the smash games that came after it. The way it is now you are expected to have tech skill and it is a lot tougher to play without it. It is very evident in the scenario you mentioned. If you start messing up due to poor execution for reasons including pressure from losing, you are a lot more likely to be at a disadvantage.
Execution matters a lot, at least it seems like that to me. Like the difference between Kodorin and Zain is that Zain will execute his strings better and kill you 9/10 times, while Kodorin will kill you 7/10 times, and that's enough to make a pretty big difference. I don't play melee, but when I watch top level, it definitely seems like one mistake leads to death, and if you miss an opportunity, you are falling behind.
I remember how tired I would feel after a 15 minute game of CTF or Oddball on Halo, never thought about how little downtime there was relative to games like LoL or CS, interesting
The old C-stick stigma came from single player mode where C-stick zooms instead of doing A attacks. So some people thought players who used the C-stick to be not as good at the game as a whole because they are effectively nerfed in single player modes.
That is such an interesting reason. It sounds stupid nowadays, at least to me, but it still is interesting how something like this happens and it changes a lot of players.
I honestly do think melee is passed “tech skill” as a factor. Everyone is so good now it’s way more about who has the better neutral game, mindset and consistency.
Personally it’s a really silly conversation to see, discussing nebulous concepts being able to hit a “DONE” state is ridiculous. Tech skill is already oversimplified, it’s not like anyone is fawning over how much a Sheik drifts back. We don’t really see shinegrab enough (STILL), we certainly don’t see all top spacies doing doubleshine grabs. (One of the cornerstones of making doubleshine “real” imo) Side b edge cancels are not even close to the precision with which Axe has with Pika. This is a classic Mang0 narrative, and I get it. Streaming is boring and we have to talk to cover time, but somehow we are still having the EC vs WC convo of “tech skill” or “neutral” but it’s just another stat that you may or may not have above someone else, just like character matchups, a macro/neutral game plan. I have seen recent implementation of shine ledgecancels in friendlies from Cody and Mokie (shine>jump>drift off ledge before jumpsquat ends) but it’s not quite as simple as “I saw this one time” Spacies still have work to do and there is plenty of character specific tech that could be refined (e.g. Sheiks needle land/platform cancel)
@@Killopotamus nobody in their right mind actually does double shine grab. I don’t even remember the last time I saw anyone at top level do that lol. It’s not worth messing up on your tech skill and dying bc there are more optimal, more consistent ways to do everything in melee. Yea you can do a shine ledge cancel, but you can also just wave dash back and grab the ledge like a normal person and not have the same risk
@@Killopotamus dawg you misunderstood what he’s saying lol we are definitely not in the tech-skill obsessed era that the scene once was. There’s a way higher base usage of tech-skill and there isn’t a big division between tech-heavy players or not , that’s what Mang0s saying and no one else is confused by that. Relax.
I think it only feels like the gangs breaking up because there’s only been like two tourneys and mangos not been playing. Top level is kinda sad rn but bobc into tipped off will be huge. Plus local and regional level is booming. We can’t be sad about the old era being over we just have to build something better. Same with summit going under, new TOs will come up and make newer and better events
I love that melee has the execution barrier but I do like controllers normalizing inputs. Like its fine for 1 frame precise inputs in my book but its a problem that the same exact frame inputs can result in different outputs on different controllers or even the same controller when it comes to things like snapback.
I should look more into the current status of melee as a whole because this stuff does sound interesting. Melee was great because the techs showed how good a player was back in the day. With new controllers and other factors evening the playing field, melee seems like the kind of game to take a different shape when it comes to the winners. The top players will obviously still be at or near the top, but this opens up the opportunity for new players to dominate if they can use melee techs efficiently rather than focusing on consistency. Tech skill is a big part of melee though, so I think it should be limited what controllers can do, but I do believe breathing more life into melee is never a bad idea; it just shouldn't be too easy with a lot of macros
Mang0 might get the Tom Brady situation where the rules bend to protect/make it easier so he can play till he’s 75. TOs gonna be throwing flags for roughing the mang0.
I think it’s cool these discussions happen in every scene. Skateboards advancing, fighting game combos / execution, Actually in Golf I hear they limit how good the balls are allowed to be 😂
Rocket League reminds me of Melee/fighting games in terms of gameplay/mechanical intensity with very little downtime. Afaik, pros only grind 4-6 hours a day, some even less than that, simply because almost nobody can play longer without getting sloppy
@@waretafai awfully combative response from a person eager to argue on the internet about something that truly doesnt matter. not worth my time friend, i hope you have a great life and learn to let go of some of that pompous arrogance next time you try to engage someone. peace
@Rashaad Evans it's not arrogant, you just don't know anything about composition. I never even said he was bad, either. I simply questioned if you really thought that was the pinnacle of music.
@@waretafai i dont know anything about composition? hahaha keep your arrogance, its not smart to assume you know who i am. I already said before its not worth my time to argue theory with some random faceless keyboard warrior. now please leave me alone, im looking for samples for my mpc
5:57 he was just about to say the truth that nobody wants to acknowledge: just because a gcc makes something harder to do doesn't mean that performing that tech on a gcc specifically is a meaningful skills test in the game. If one fox uses z-jump and one fox doesn't, literally the only difference is the hand positioning needed to reach the buttons. The relevant skill there should be your ability to hit a frame window, not your ability to use one specific layout on a janky 20 year old controller.
The origin of straying from OEM is the huge inconsistencies of OEM GameCube controllers. I only had 1 controller that was naturally consistent on shield drops and I barely use it to keep it fresh. Not like I need to use it anymore playing on pc. Some controllers could do perfect pivots, ledgedash and other tech easier.
Game is hard and should stay hard. Theres a reason alot of things can be frame perfect but have lots of wiggle room for error. Closer you get to that frame perfect mechanic, the better it is, but it still works if you're 5 frames off, just not as well. We should also just allow auto L cancelling because my R button sucks
personally i think the only thing that should be allowed is snap back capacitors that shit is HORRID id be super down to implement that into the current version of UCF but notches the macroesc things with goomwave is just all too much. its really bad when i went from playing with a 20$ shit controller with mad snapback and inconsistancy issues like shield dropping to a phob and i just instantly became better. this absolutely shouldnt be allowed as it is now
I get it, I mean in mew2kings era he dominated thanks to, in a large degree, his techskill and controllers. I do give credit to his adaptation in his later years before his retirement for example against armada
Z jump is modifying the controller in one of a few ways to swap the inputs from Z and X it Y. This let's you jump with Z meaning you can keep your hand free to hit the other buttons or the c stick more readily. It functions the same as doing a claw grip, it's nice but it's blown out of proportion by a lot of people and minimized by a lot of others. It's not the most important thing to focus on but it is part of the bigger discussion of controller legality.
@@vegaplus420 a disingenuous way to put it, not explaining the argument doesn't help them understand what it is at its core. Hacking is also an odd way of putting it and not even technically true. Phobs are built and coded to be able to be altered on the fly which,by definition, is not hacking. You can also desolder and resolder the wires in a default controller which depending on how you look at it might technically be hacking but it definitely isn't software alteration. Trying to summarize the points I made as "hacking controller" doesn't make much sense and doesn't help.
I’m a big fan of tech skill in games, if you want to take out all aspects of tech skill just play long time control chess. What makes other games fun is the combination of trying to think while having to execute accurately.
Mango am I wrong for saying this?... Any electronic version of a game that has more time than NTSC (USA) 1.02 (DOL - GALE 0-02) hass less active players and any electronic version of a game that has more active players has less time. G.O.A.T.? 😂
Oems should be the only legal controller. It's easy to implement, it stays true to the game's original scope and it doesn't create a huge paywall that newcomers think they need to vault over just to compete. There's virtually no good reason to allow other controllers. Big name tournaments should either hand them out fresh out of the box or have an inspection crew checking for chips and mods. No issues there.
Mango asks if tech skill should be hard and I feel passionate that it shouldn’t. The game should be about who has the best game plan and reads and situational awareness. It shouldn’t be about who’s the best at pressing buttons. The button pressing to me is just a necessary evil for expressing oneself through the game
Lots of tech skill has a risk/reward aspect i dont think you are accounting for... Easiest example would be ledgedash. You are risking an SD for invincibility frames. Imagine if fox could had TAS level ledgedashes 100 percent of the time. A marth downtilts against spacies at the ledge because they often wont sweet spot perfectly. The game has the potential to be played at such a superhuman level that the tech skill is a great decider of who the better player is. There is definitely strategy in punishing opponents tech skill mistakes. Is spacing ariels tech skill or is it game plan? Its both
@@boardwalk2003 its built into the core of the game so it’s hard to imagine a world where it isn’t but, say with ledge dashes, if they were easy with no risk of SD, it would then just become a question of mix ups. Opponents would have to cover for ledge dash more and you’d have to play around it. As it stands now ppl SD for attempting ledge dashes and it’s usually a bummer, it makes it more rewarding when done successfully but when it isn’t, it could decide a game and lead to a hollow feeling victory. Regardless, I think you’ve made a good point and the real ideal way is somewhere in btwn
I'm ngl lie bro this mentality gives off smash 4 and brawl vibes, it is perfectly fair and it's a reasonable demand for tech skill to be difficult, someone who grinds more will have better tech skill. mixups are a guessing game, at their core they're random to each player because you don't 100% know what the opponent is going to do, tech skill separates players who grind, unfortunately a side effect are large amounts of people getting hand problems because gcc's aren't ergonomic but I think if we're to be taken at least somewhat seriously the stance should be that just because your hands hurt doesn't mean you can build a cheating controller at home and use it just because you made it yourself and it allows you to play, I think that if you need a special controller to play you can use it, just not in most tournaments.
I don't think there's anything melee is supposed to be and if nicer controllers makes people have more fun and break their hands less why not. It's not like investing in a nice controller is going to cost you more than buying new oems
