Is Nature Inherently Random? (Aquinas 101)

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Is nature inherently random, fundamentally disordered, and simply unintelligible? Or, can order arise from apparent randomness and chaos in the natural world? Where does God fit in? Fr. Thomas Davenport, O.P., a Dominican friar from the Province of St. Joseph, uses his extensive background in physics to explain how the way order seems to arise out of randomness in the natural world is almost always a sign of a deeper order and structure that we don’t always notice at first.
Order from Randomness in the Physical World (Aquinas 101) - Fr. Thomas Davenport, O.P.
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This video was made possible through the support of grant #61944 from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation.

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12 дек 2021

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Комментарии : 110

@amaraheising4672 2 года назад

Interesting and informative. Validation that the Catholic Church is not afraid of science and the questions it asks. Thank you, Father for the presentation.

@anthonypuccetti8779 2 года назад

Science is afraid of the Church because Church doctrine contradicts scientific naturalism and false scientific theories.

@Mindmartyr 2 года назад

When people say Christians don't understand/deny science: My father is a Princeton graduate. (Ph.D in Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering) & devout Christian. He is the kindest, most intelligent & honest man I've ever known...

@anthonypuccetti8779 2 года назад

When people say that its because they believe in false naturalistic theories that Christians reject.

@antoniomoyal 2 года назад

Order or 'cosmos' is an unavoidabe intuition: Even when we come up with uncertainty as a principle (Heisenberg), we keep searching. You made us for thee, Lord and our hearts keep searching until we rest in thee.

@frank327 2 года назад

Interesting, and accessibly presented with brevity and clarity.

@antoniomoyal 2 года назад

Randomenss is ingrained in the imperfection of physical reality. Take an abstract mathematical object, like a circle. The relation from the length to the radius is, as we know, PI (3,1415...). But PI has been proven to be a transcendental number: it has infinite, irrepeatable decimals. The huge consequence of this is that any physical circle is determined to a specific size (accident, for Aquinas). And because it is determined, there will always be a degree of approximation to its measurement (even theoretically, in the absence of errors of measurement). So randomness will take place always, by definition. For example, if we take a circle of the size of the observable universe, and we calculate the future position of an object orbiting that circle, we will always have uncertainty about its future position, as we must have had to take a finite approximation of PI. The higher the number of rotations of the object along the orbit, the higher the uncertainty about its future position. It is uncertain even in theoretical terms. And in physical, terms, we would have to add the uncertainty of measurement. Conclusion: Uncertainty lies in the difference between the determined, thus finite physical objects, as compared to abstract, infinite mathematical concepts. God used mathematical ideas to design the universe, because he is eternal and infinite. And we, his children, can grasp infinity although we know it cannot exist actually because nature is determined. We, being spiritual and physical rational beings, can grasp the difference between both distinct realms, as it is in our nature. Randomness is, by the way, a mathematical concept that exists only in minds, not in physical objects. minds that cannot be physical, which proof I will not write now. You made us for thee, Lord and our hearts keep searching until we rest in thee.

@krzysztofciuba271 2 года назад

contrary to yours (mess) the winner of tomorrow weekly lottery is a physical object predetermined by the law (of probability that exists objectively and not only in your mind.

2 года назад

there is no such thing as "infinite mathematical concepts". The only infinite thing is God himself. Don't mix up indeterminacy with infinity

@antoniomoyal 2 года назад

@@krzysztofciuba271 so do you think the law of probability exists out of your mind? Numbers also? Probability is a mere calculation of repetition of physical events ruled by unaccessible causes. But the calculation is only in the mind. And causes are external to your mind. Yes, mathematicsl truths rule the universe. But that is because they were in Gods mibd when he created the universe. But they dont exist in nature. Not difficult to prove.

@antoniomoyal 2 года назад

@ the set of natural numbers is infinite. There is an infinite number of numbers.

2 года назад

@@antoniomoyal That's a philosophical error. Infinity cannot be split in sets dude. As I said, you mistake indeterminacy for infinity. Only God is infinite.

@merygonzalez9336 2 года назад

Hi! Can you make a video about neuroscience and the existence of the soul? I’ve been having trouble thinking about that, and I would find it very useful!

@didierfavre2356 2 года назад

One day I realised that mathematical laws describing randomness are incredibly rigorous. I can't say I got them correctly. I do like the idea that diminishing symmetry generates more and more complex structures. It might be understood as entropy at work. Funny that increasing disorder increases complexity.

@LostArchivist 2 года назад

It is so to a certain point but if you go too far structure breaks down. There are many good reasons the ancients speak of order and chaos and of balance. Chaos Theory and Complexity Theory speak about the math behind it. But none of these is king so though very fundamental, they work necessarily together to form the ways of the natural world. God alone is God. It is a sweet spot so to speak that we find ourselves in to lead to just enough change to make things alive, ordered yet dynamic and it is good, and beautiful and speaks of God Who is Truth and Who it faintly reflects. It changes whereas God is impassive, because in this wat more of God`s glory is revealed in the great arrays of creatures and how they interact.

@didierfavre2356 2 года назад

@@LostArchivist Sir, First, you introduce another highly important point here : relations. Chaos and order are fundamental and work in relation or we find ourselves into nothingness or death, the latter being the most ordered state I can think of. Second, you correctly infer from the rigorousness of laws describing randomness that I see God in action there. I digress when I write that I agree with you. Disorder beyond a point means chaos and I could consider it to be a structure by itself. The thing becomes perfectly homogeneous. Describing it completely is the longest task I can think of if I consider its randomness.

@LostArchivist 2 года назад

@@didierfavre2356 So first I would say that we can declare one thing as more fundemental than order and chaos, that of relationship itself. See that these are poled on a continuum, of a field of type of relation of things with each other. This is expected as God is Three Divine Persons in One God, but inexplicable from a single creator or fundemental creative force in its lonesome. No solipsistic god could create God`s Creation. This came to be not of my own wisdom but trustfully following the Lord through solipsistic existential anxiety and a long path trusting that He is Who He says that He is. I certainly could not see it nor survive the road I took on my own. The Lord is a Good Shepherd and knows what He is about even when we don`t.

@LostArchivist 2 года назад

@@didierfavre2356 For you I would recommend the Four Horsemen of Meaning video on Jordan Peterson on this platform and the resulting videos that came after between the four speakers. Also Complexity Zoo, it shows just one aspect of how deep this rabbit hole of complexity goes and ultimately order and chaos are intrinsicly connected to complexity in the material order.

@ProfessorShnacktime 2 года назад

This guy is incredible! You all deserve so many more views.

@superdavidss 2 года назад

Dr. Davenport has giving a excellent perspective of the universe from the theoretic particle physics / field theory lens. As fellow physicist, it would be great to assess the emergence of order from the thermodynamic point of view. According to Planck's version of the 2nd law, it's necessary to existence of a external agent provinding mechanical work to turn backwards the "wheel of the increasing" entropy. How would the scholastic thomist think about that? Interesting. God bless you. You're doing a great work.

@roisinpatriciagaffney4087 2 года назад

Thank you, Father Davenport. Pax Christi.

@ThomisticInstitute 2 года назад

Thanks for watching! May the Lord bless you!

@joshuafernandes6684 2 года назад

As a biologist, i relate to well with this video. In the evolution of life we see both order and caos working side by side giving rise to as Darwin said "Endless forms most beautifull". Some things are predicable and inevitables while other are totally random. Nice video!

@sedevacantist1 2 года назад

With all due respect, the fossil record and the "waiting time problem" has put Neo-Darwinism to rest along side of the original Darwinian theory.

2 года назад

Evolution is just a gnostic fairy tale. Randomness does not bring about anything meaningful. Chance is not a per se cause, but just a per accidens cause.

@LostArchivist 2 года назад

@ It is not random chance from God`s perspective, but that aspect of Darwinism presupposes a purely naturalistic ontology. It may be random as far as physicality goes, but that says nothing of what is upstream. Evolution if meant simply as descent with modification based on natural laws, removed from its naturalist materialistic baggage is perfectly kosher so to speak. And as all of time is open as a single moment to God, it makes sense for creation to take place over time, it is greater glory for God to make all of Creation in connection with higher emerging from and emerging after lesser, in a rather liturgical procession as such can only be done with His sustaining constant guiding providence and points to Him being not one time Creator of all, but constant Creator of all that is through all time. Don`t throw the baby with the bath water

@LostArchivist 2 года назад

@@sedevacantist1 The fossil record does support descent with modification in reaction to physical laws. It also supports however an obvious trend towards form and complexity and an emergant hierarchy of being. What it does not support is blind forces steering towards no end. Rather, it totally supports Catholic philosophy being right IMHO. As for the other, remember that evolution did not happen in a vacuum, it occurs in history and the context of geologic and astronomical environment that does not just patiently wait for life to happen. Randomness does not allow for human complexity, but all of time is open to God as one constant moment, so of course Creation takes place over time. So theistic evolution is a viable theory if one can cut away the naturalist materialistic dogma that tries to masqurade as science.

@sedevacantist1 2 года назад

@@LostArchivist I am a Roman Catholic and your belief (descent with modification in reaction to physical laws...trend towards form and complexity and an emergent hierarchy of being) is not only not logical, it is also heresy.

@robertdunn6064 Год назад

posted in my blog - thank you

@ThomisticInstitute 10 месяцев назад

Thanks for taking the time to watch, comment, and share! May the Lord bless you!

@josefreire6122 Год назад

A profound scientific concept exceptionally presented.

@kdmdlo 2 года назад

Well, I would suggest that much of what you're talking about is nonlinear phenomena - and not random processes, per se. They are quite different things. Nonlinear processes (of which chaos is one) often display a sensitivity to initial conditions. But there is still an underlying structure. For example, look at a Poincaré section for a simple Duffing system. While the orbits are a tangled mess, the Poincaré section shows a well defined (often fractal) attractor.

@darkfoxwillie 11 месяцев назад

thanks for the lecture father :)

@ThomisticInstitute 10 месяцев назад

You're welcome! Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment. May the Lord bless you!

@Mindmartyr 2 года назад

The evidence for God is every function of the natural world if you have eyes to see. The universe is so beautifully logical in it's behavior it's just pure art through & through. It is indeed a masterpiece, & physics really demonstrates that.

@preetamvyavhare3687 Год назад

Nice

@catholicdisciple3232 2 года назад

Curious to hear your thoughts on geocentrism. I have heard that the physics "can" work for either system. Is this true? Thank you and God bless!

@bb1006 2 года назад

Have you seen the the film, "The Principle"? Your question is addressed in the film. SPOILER: The physics does support a geocentric universe.

@catholicdisciple3232 2 года назад

@@bb1006 yes I have. I was wondering if what was said in that video can be corroborated by others.

@LostArchivist 2 года назад

It depends on the shape of the Universe. There may not be a center in space which, would be fitting as creation is made for God and His glory.

@djg585 2 года назад

Is it alleged that randomness involves a suspension or indeterminacy in the very laws of physics, or an inability of physicists to calculate the interactions of all the involved physical particles?

@user-pl8cv6xh5g Год назад

Can order come from chaos? Can that which is come from that which is not in the most absolute sense?

@carminefragione4710 2 года назад

In order to create a truly random mechanism to gamble a chance fairly , you must use intelligent design to craft a roulette wheel or dice, which then can tumble and serve to present a fair chance of any numbered outcome within it's limits. Nature is not random so you must invent gambling machines to produce random results where any number has the same chance of being selected as any other. But if a pyramid of rising circumstances prefers certain orders to compliment the first order, then in nature nothing is by chance or random.

@david_porthouse 2 года назад

According to me, randomness in Nature originates from tachyonic Brownian motion which is strictly orthogonal to the Schroedinger equation, but becomes apparent when it interacts with Maxwell's equation. We don't know enough about this topic as yet to be able to say where God fits in, and speculation is premature. For the record, I am saying the Sub Tuum Praesidium every day at the moment as a prayer against Covid-19.

@antoniomoyal 2 года назад

You are off the mark. Read my post up about the origin of uncertainty.

@Miroshen 2 года назад

Please add to that intention the correction of powers and principalities whose lies about covid have caused so much confusion and destruction, putting the entire world on a fast track to godless communism.

@anthonypuccetti8779 2 года назад

What people call randomness is simply contingency.

@LostArchivist 2 года назад

That brownian motion stems from vacuum energy which, has not as yet been shown to be either random or nonrandom, but if Dark Energy is any indication, is nonrandom.

@david_porthouse 2 года назад

@@LostArchivist I am postulating tachyonic Brownian motion as a primitive concept, not necessarily caused by anything else. I want to make use of a random number generator in a computer simulation of quantum mechanics, but am up against the issue that modification of the Schroedinger equation is prohibited. Tachyonic Brownian motion is one possible idea.

@hugofernandes8545 5 месяцев назад

I think the analogy of the pattern of balls inside the box is a bit fallacious because: 1-The balls did not arise by chance, they were made by human beings 2-It was human beings who put the balls in the box 3-Although there is a random element in the pattern of the balls, this pattern is the result of the movement of the balls which is caused by a force that a human being is applying to the box. After all, it is the human being who is moving the box and causing that pattern on the balls.

@alexandersupertramp3326 2 года назад

Has the question of strong vs. weak emergence been settled in science?

@LostArchivist 2 года назад

As far as I know in microbiology it has not been. But if it correlates with Complexity Theory as it seens to, it might not be a straight foreward this or that. i.e. the system is not the sum of the parts and can not be predicted by the combined behavior or parts, but does somehow come from their interactions and the nature of complexity and systems. Unfortunately, there may not be a unified way to predict the behavior of all complex systems by any singular means. So the complexity of complexity is complex...no duh right?

@johncalla2151 2 года назад

From my math perspective I think randomness is just an abstract concept (like infinity). It's not actually real. If you've ever been tasked with writing a random number generator (in software), you immediately see the problem. So that initial definition of the word is always important; randomness does not at all imply a lack of order or cause and effect.

@rimanm6934 2 года назад

true Randomness exist because of finite mind cant comprehand infinty. Cause if we could comprehand infinite variables at same time we could know exactly where any material dot in universe would be in next moment and could predict future. That why finite mind cant comprehand infinite universe, that why people think there is chaos where there is actully order they just cant comprahand. And I think that why concept of God so compeling. God is infinite mind that can comprehand infinite universe, that how I think God know things before they actully happen: Cause God like Programer: Coded things to be certain way. And if we would see "the Code" we could also knew where that all going. That why I like that Galileo qouate "Math is languge of God".

@letdaseinlive 2 года назад

@@rimanm6934 He didn't say that. He said mechanics is the language of the universe. It doesn't change your point. But, math as such is something quite different from the very specific Galilean calculation of motion.

@rimanm6934 2 года назад

@@letdaseinlive ahh)) Than sorry for mistake.) But yeah even Galileo never said that, than well I will.) Cause I really beleive math is language of God. Although still very finite part of it.

@williamcurt7204 2 года назад

Yes, exactly. Computer scientists always stress that the “random” number generators everyone uses are really “pseudo-random”. Even under conditions of mathematical chaos (say, a double pendulum), if infinite precision is granted, then the path the pendulum takes based on is completely unique and determined, not random.

@letdaseinlive 2 года назад

@@rimanm6934 Yes, but mechanics is the math of motion and in Christian thinking not everything is moving in the sense of physical motion. Motus in Thomas, change in the larger sense, including (for example) the granting of grace by God, is no physical mechanical action or motion.

@gennarocirillo9608 2 года назад

I understood but I would not be able to explain it back so someone, man this stuff is complicated

@ThePoliticrat 2 года назад

It’s spontaneous order.

@tomdooley3522 2 года назад

So where in all of this did life come from , I really wonder where Non matter ( spiritual ) come from, as it's not answerable to natural law. Again how do you explain the supernatural by natural law.

@anthonypuccetti8779 2 года назад

Spiritual things are created by God like natural things are. Natural law isn't laws of scientific theory, it is moral law implanted in humans.

@tomdooley3522 2 года назад

@@anthonypuccetti8779 It amuses me to hear secularist explain everything by evolution , then get these electronic gizmos , and go looking for ghost , which most don't believe in any more then witchcraft and witch's.

@anthonypuccetti8779 2 года назад

@@tomdooley3522 Yeah, they think all phenomena can be explained with natural causes and everything that exists can be detected.

@WerIstWieJesus 2 года назад

As Thomists we have much more to say than you presented as a physist. Already the chemists have a better understanding of entropy than physists. Physists are really the worst in this subject. They often think that osmose is the inversement of diffusion. But in fact in both processes the entropy grows. The difference is only the state of equality. All processes in nature go in direction of a greater entropy or if reversible stay at the same level of entropy. If a process on a lower level seems to go in the inverse direction it is only in relationship to a process in higher level in which the entropy even grows faster. You are mixing up conforming to a pattern with order. In fact they are the opposite. In a cristall the perfect conformation to the cristalline pattern is at the end of all processes and is the state of highest entropy and lowest order. The state to which physical bodies tend can be very complex. But at the moment bodies reach this predefined pattern the order is zero. Order in opposite is every information that exeeds this pattern. In information theory the information of the grammar itself is zero, even if the grammar is very complex. Information is only what you express out of this grammar. If you expose an artwork of sandstone to corrosion it will perfectly conform to a pattern of diffusion. But this pattern is the lowest level of order, the loss of all order. The problem is much deeper and much easier to understand for a philosopher and especially for a metaphysician. Causality (real metaphysic causality not "physical causality") says that every perfection needs a sufficient cause. Random is no cause. If a new perfection grows out of random this is a contradiction. If in the world order has grown at some moment it is only possible because an external cause has operated. Selforganization is a contradiction to causality. Random is no explanation but absence of explanation.

@MrFossil367ab45gfyth Год назад

God could work through random processes to bring about change and plan something out. He can work through all the randomness to generate order and create new things.

@colinpierre3441 Год назад

Surely God has to have control over what he is doing if so many things are created with pinpoint accuracy. If God was working through random processes he would not be able to predict the future with such accuracy. I'm not sure if you aware, but the Bible contains 1000+ prophecies and not one of them have failed to come true.

@ponzianomanning3071 2 года назад

Our notions of randomness is mans superficial way of defining Gods higher complex order that we aren't designed to understand beyond the limits of math: Fractals, probability and statistics... else our sinful nature may disturb that order. Over time we will surely learn more about how to manage randomness, but until man develops spiritually we will never even approach a complete understanding of Gods "random" order.

@eldoradose 2 года назад

The word -order- means similarity and -random- means without similarity. Geometric patterns comes from similarity, lines are the same length or angle etc. Chaos means matter or nothingness, or dying/darkness. In Nature there is no chaos because it is full of a living spirit which makes things similar to each other and this gives us integrity(Christ) and the law of repulsion and attraction. Randomness is only there where is no life, it is not in Nature it is only a base, a matrix for Nature. If you look at something, like jungle or crowd of people and see only random, chaos it means you are looking from the perspective of darkness (materialistic one). If you could see in the same picture only a similarity you will be looking from the perspective of light (spiritual one). Without effort we got tendency to see randomness in everything but we got spirit inside so everything is mixed together so we can see colors in life, not only the patterns. This seeing a mix of light and darkness, order and chaos is called - the soul.

@sophrapsune 2 года назад

There are further arguments against the metaphysical significance of randomness in scientific explanations: (1) Randomness is a statistical place-holder for processes whose outcome we can not predict. Within scientific descriptions, randomness is a conceptual invention that captures and contains genuine mystery. Random processes may have some ultimate cause, but that causal process is not accessible to the scientific description. Rather than treating randomness as an informational mystery, it is often nowadays used as a descriptor for chaos or arbitrariness. The metaphysics of scientific materialism, has made an idol of randomness. (2) The idea of “running the tape back”, a reversing time and observing an alternative creation, is not a scientific question but a metaphysical one. Our scientific theories, even our philosophy of science, arose from one universe and one timeline only. Scientific theories attempt to describe that one universe. It is therefore meaningless to ask about alternative histories, as that question is asking about observations in a non-reality to which science has never had any access.

@ColeB-jy3mh Год назад

I made the 900th like on this video :)

@ThomisticInstitute Год назад

We're so glad you "liked" it! Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment. May the Lord bless you!

@ianb483 2 года назад

It seems to me that the idea the universe and biology would take different courses if you reran history depends on certain assumptions, namely that things that are random from our point of view, or even in the quantum sense, are also random with respect to divine Providence. Given that rational creatures, sentient creatures, and life itself all represent different irreducible substances (At the very least. It's likely that there are many more gradations of substance throughout biology than just those broad categories), they cannot even be accounted for by purely mechanistic causes in principle. And we Christians can see how God worked through all of history to bring about his plan of salvation through Christ. Given that, if we were to do a "rewind," I don't see why we should suppose that life would come into existence at all on the one hand unless God willed it by his Providence, or if He did will it, why we should suppose it would ever evolve beyond simple organisms, much less that we should see sentient or rational living substances. On the other hand, I don't see why the replayed universe shouldn't come out exactly like the first time down to every detail unless God *didn't* will things to go the same way as the first time.

2 года назад

"are also random with respect to divine Providence". This is straight up heresy. How can something be random with respect to God, who knows everything? "Rewind" the universe? Can I assume you believe in the gnostic concept of "evolution"? If you "rewind" the universe you will get to the same outcome: God creating everything ex nihilo.

@ianb483 2 года назад

@ Clearly it CAN'T be random with respect to God, which was my point.

@dhdhebeb1780 2 года назад

There is randomness in the world

@LostArchivist 2 года назад

I would not be sure...look up Chaos Theory and Complexity Theory.

@DiamorphineDeath 2 года назад

Every time I hear the bane “Stephen jay Gould” I sort of dry heave a little bit and hope the individual is not about to speak highly of him, or acknowledge him as anything other than intellectually dishonest and destructive. Props on showing the absurdity of his position there

@Nick-rb1dc 2 года назад

The real question is whether God was directly involved in any of this, or did God throw a pile of stuff into space and let it all do its thing while He sat back? If so, then we really have no reason to think God is directly involved in our life, or even our individual births.

@shadowlinks99 2 года назад

Deism is disproven by God's direct intervention in reality at discrete times in the conception, life, and resurrection of Christ, whose witness also proves the legitimacy of the more ancient interventions (as in Moses' life, etc.). If you want a scientific argument (as opposed to a historical argument), it would seem that His miraculous interventions, like the healings confirmed as medically unexplainable (eg. by Jacalyn Duffin, whose testimony led to the canonization of St. Marguerite D'Youville), as well as modern Eucharistic miracles, confirm His real presence (pun intended) in the world.

@Nick-rb1dc 2 года назад

@@shadowlinks99 based on the many intellectual scientific episodes from these Dominicans, it doesn't sound like those who best understand theology think God is really that involved in daily life, though by Faith we know God "interfered" with this world at least once at the Resurrection. This talk didn't really mention God's involvement at all. The OP quest to absolutely minimize of the presence of the Trinity within the life of Christians would surely make St Thomas proud.

@RicardoGarcia-ib8ro 2 года назад

Why do you find meaning at all? Is that same meaning reachable to all (universal )? If it is so, the natural next question is: is it random or is it purposely place there to be grasp?

@DistributistHound 2 года назад

Yes and no, No: God isn't just a watchmaker that built the universe and let it unfold or work by itself, he sustains everything continously, you should see the season1 of Aquinas 101 in regards to God and his creation. Yes: randomness or caos is part of the design but the real question is whether God actively takes part of this randomness or he simply allows it. You should see the fine tuning argument in regards to the involvement of the creator in the small constants in the physics of the universe that make posible it's existence. In regards to humans God is not just involved in the creation of a new human but also in every moment of its existence through Grace, I recommend you watching the videos about grace.

@Nick-rb1dc 2 года назад

@@DistributistHound then it would seem most of these "science" videos do a great disservice to the higher things of life, such as promoting the divinely revealed Trinity within the faithful, by trying too hard to explain things as if God was a mere bystander. If God is intimately involved within all that exists, then we have a duty to speak and act like it, rather than hide it under a basket. It's a form of denial of the Gospel to secularize science to the point no "Divine Mystery" component is included. The science community would certainly laugh at the OP if the OP talked more openly and boldly of God being intimately part of the physical world, yet the lack of bringing this up tragically comes across as being embarrassed about the Gospel and eagerness to please men. It breaks my heart how embarrassed the OP are to bring God into creation, obviously because the praises of men trump sounding like a fool for Christ. I don't think any of the OP on this channel could preach on John 1:3, Col 1:16, Matt 6:26, etc, without heavily editing out the divine parts or at least getting sick to their stomach.

@Miroshen 2 года назад

A random event is just the coincidence of two or more non random events coming together.

@anthonypuccetti8779 2 года назад

Its contingency.