I was an atheist and sex addict for much of my life. My addiction ruined any relationships I might have had. There was so much money, time, effort, mental space given over to attaining that excitation and release that I today can't believe it. In my late 40's, after coming to Christ, I was still certain that God didn't really care about the things we do in the flesh. But after two years of walking with Jesus, the Holy Spirit in a single moment convicted me in my whole body, convinced me, and delivered me from the addiction that I had been under most of my life. The freedom I have now is so much greater than the compulsion I had before. I would never want to go back to it. I pray that all bound by addictions of any type be set free by the power of Christ. It is for freedom that we have been set free.
“Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.” 1 Corinthians 10:12-13 NASB1995 Praise God! The enemy usually tries to come hard after one shares a testimony like this so I would like to encourage you again with the above. Blessings to you in the name of the Lord!
God Bless you Brother! Jesus saved me from a 25+ year alcohol addition,even when I called on the name of Jesus I was still drinking ,still a lukewarm Christian ,still living in my sin,still thinking I could do it all by myself. Then last September I cried out to Jesus to help me because I couldn’t do it on my own anymore. I stopped drinking September,went to service in October and was Baptised in November and I have walked with the LORD ever since! 🙏
There are clearly cases where attachment to sex causes spiritual harm. But, given Ortlund's view that Christianity should primarily serve to make people happy in the "here and now" and give them hope for a hereafter, then why would he hold to a Romans 1 doctrine of homosexuality, especially in California??? This kind of view would put his congregation at serious odds with the surrounding culture. It puts a huge chasm between his church and potential gay converts (what do you do about the ones who are already legally married or have had gender reassignment, and possibly dependent children?), and how could you not expect the ones who do manage to extricate themselves from that lifestyle and convert not to wrestle with constant self-loathing, despair, and worries that God has already "given them up"? Where's the happiness in that? And as difficult as that situation would be for them, what do you do with the parishioners who have family in that lifestyle? Isn't that a ton of additional conflict and alienation just waiting to happen? Shouldn't we expect Ortlund to adopt a more progressive hermeneutic on this matter?
Is life long sobriety not possible for some Christians, is life long abstaining from violence impossible for some, Heroin addiction is impossible to give up for many...shall we provide free needles in church bathrooms and a clean environment for shooting up with phlebotomists on duty? How about a wet bar in the basement? Can’t give up seeing prostitutes? Shall we reinstate temple prostitution? We can accommodate all sin in the name of inclusion and affirmation.
For some people, resisting the urge to sleep with prostitutes is sustainable, but for others that is not sustainable. For them, they choose to have a public ceremony declaring that they will continue seeing prostititues until they die and will never repent. That is THEIR choice. We need to meet them where they are at.
Yes, and he also crew lines on right and wrong! Take for instance the time he cleared the temple of the sellers(merchants) that were over charging for their animals that were being sold for sacrifice. He cleared it because they were in effect taking more(in some cases much more) than the animal would have been sold for if they were to charge the right price.
But Jesus also said in order to enter heaven you must repent, which means to change who you are. If that isnt clear enough, and he is accpeting of everyone, then why is HE warning us of his wrath that is coming? Who is the wrath for then??? Also...if he was "accepting" of gays, then why did HE DESTROY Sodom and Ghemmhora...? And why does GOD say when we are in "the days of Lot", HE will destroy it again. Better read your Bibles with more discernment people.
Andy, "For many, this [celibacy] is not sustainable." Christ calls his children to take up our crosses and follow him. Christ sustains his people. This is the message that needs to be heard, no matter what sin you're struggling against.
It's obvious you have no idea what this "sin" is. May I ask you when did you chose to be straight? How dare you deny your Christian brothers and sisters their right to a happy God-loving Christian life with all the joys, comforts, and even heartaches that come with a loving relationship. Where's your notorized affidavit from your supposedly all-loving God allowing you to spew such uncompassion?
Thank you for the message. I was divorced in 2017 and I've abstained from sex since that time. I've just hit my 40s and it's been hard - especially after being sexually active throughout the marriage - but I do it because it's what Christ commanded. The commands about sexuality are clear, and they apply to everyone. Whenever I see these creative arguments to excuse homosexuality (and in some cases to even call it fine and good), I can't help but laugh. I don't know any other fitting response. What would all the people who excuse homosexual attraction have to say to me? Would they tell me that I can have sex with women and it's fine? Or would they draw lines? Would they tell me that it's okay for me if I can do it, but not everyone can be celibate? Let's just call this what it is. It's terrible pastoring. It's pandering to people who value their relationships with sinners more than they do obedience to Christ. That's it. Thank you again, and please continue to speak truth.
You obviously didn’t watch Andy’s message and your analogy is off. You seem to be saying same sex attraction is a sin and the church should condemn anyone that has same sex attraction. Please clarify.
I think it's important for Christians to talk about celibacy now so I'm here to add my voice. I've been celibate almost as long as you have, since I became Christian. And I will remain celibate until I get married - if I ever get married. It's in God's hands. This approach, where we sacrifice things we enjoy in order to follow Christ, is so countercultural people cannot understand it. But it's what Christianity is. I've also worked on temperance in other areas of my life. I consciously eat less, I limit time spent consuming trashy media, and I try really hard to be 'in the world, not of it'. The last thing Christians should do is make a big noise about our sacrifices, or take pride in them, and I think many of us don't share in detail with outsiders what our walk looks like for that reason. But now might be a good time for us to start explaining, for the sake of teaching others what the faith really is. So, good on you bro. Solidarity.
Thank you for this, brother! I was comfort actually when you said that Christianity is hard. Following Jesus is hard. I have said this many times and brothers and sisters look at me confused. They ask why and praise God they say it is easy for them and they have a zeal for God. I thought it was just me that has found Christianity to be hard. I often fight my temptations and i have plenty. My wife and i are Christians. I am the only Christian from my side of the family and I told my wife i feel like compromising just to be more welcomed by my parents and sisters but Praise God this is only our temporary home. I look forward everyday to be in God's kingdom so i won't feel so much temptation and feel so weak.
@ricksonora6656 Christianity is supposed to be a place of rest. However, the good fight is walking day by day, moment by moment, believing this. Don't let the enemy rob you of a life of peace, rest, and hope in Christ. Circumstances are hard, but, even with hard circumstances Christians should be growing in their understanding of what it means to still be at peace on the inside as you go through each and every issue.
The mistake the Church made was making the Church a place of evangelism. Jesus said, "Go into the whole world and share the gospel." The church is for God's children. Paul also dealt harshly in the way he was going to deal with sexual immorality in the Church of Corinthians 5
@sia9907 I remember someone saying a while ago that Andy secretly affirms, but is not open about it, and is easing his congregation into it. I really hope that this isn’t true, since it’s manipulative, but it’s honestly starting to look like there’s merit to what they said.
@@samueljennings4809 Andy tries to balance love and truth, it's always going to be on the cutting edge. He sincerely believes the Bible fully, he's not on a slippery slope. I agree we should be careful but I believe he is having a successful ministry helping people overcome even in cases of sexuality.
@@samueljennings4809He sounds like a politician, not a pastor. Also he looks VERY queer himself. And I mean queer specifically, not gay. That's where the lack of boundaries, and the 'circles not lines' comes in. Queer theology is... interesting.
True, “being chaste is easier than martyrdom” really is how it feels, I say that as an unmarried woman (never been sexually active) who struggles with lust and depression in the past. Though God has brought me very far, sometimes stumbling in both is unbearable. Thanks for the video.
I feel your pain. I didn't marry till I hit 50. Those years of singleness were sometimes brutal. I wish I could go back in time and redo so much. I pray God lifts your heart, and soothes your soul.
Clear and powerful. Thank you. What Dr. Ortlund calls his "irenic approach" has sometimes made me think that he was unwilling to speak a deeply unpopular truth, such as this one. I am glad to find that I was wrong.
I can tell Dr Ortlund is treating this issue very carefully. With kindness and compassion. I think of the seven churches in Revelation and I often wonder why these churches and how Jesus through John found errors and addressed them. So many of the apologetic videos out today talk a lot about sticking to the original churches led by the apostles, yet Revelation includes errors and corrections in these first, original churches. I bring that up because those faults Jesus found in the original churches seem to address this issue. The church in Ephesus had abandoned Christ’s teachings and the church of Pergamum had compromised its beliefs. Even the first churches dealt with this. I believe that Jesus needs to be the head of the church, the kingdom…not men. The deception and complacency and tolerance of worldliness and blindness to truth covered in this talk only works on men. Let’s stick with Jesus. He teaches godly truth with loving kindness, yet directly deals with it.
Calling "Chaste" an "old-fashioned" word means for most people today "obsolete." That is how you manipulate language; anything traditional is already taken as meaning "meaningless" or "defunct."
Wonderful video. If you are reading this, I exhort you: don’t cave in. What Andy Stanley did this month, church after church and pastor after pastor are going to do in the coming decades. Resolve in your heart not to follow them. Resolve to stand by the Word of God. Resolve to proclaim and uphold the truth though the world and the erring church crucify you. Resolve not to cave in. Christ will reward you on the final day. The most loving thing you can do in this generation is to refuse to call evil good.
There’s a difference between living with sin and living IN sin. If you continue to keep living in sin do you really love Jesus? Are you a new creation? Sexual sin is highlighted in the Bible specifically because it’s a sin against our own bodies,and our bodies don’t belong to us anymore,they were brought with a high price. And there was a reason Paul used and coined the word “arsenokoites”,people would do well to research into that and where it’s from. God Bless all 🙏
"It's their decision." Apply the same logic to any other sin (pedophiles? rapists? murderers?) and would Andy still be saying the same thing about making big circles?
@@gregmahler9506That's a strawman. The point is "it's their decision" and if their decision is a sin, them we shouldn't speak of it so lightly. We have to speak of it as what it is: sin. From there we love them in truth
Dr. O. I grew up in Georgia and went to Northpoint once while in college. I think Mr. Stanley continues to struggle with the Southern fundamentalist culture he grew up in that was often unthinking. But, he has fallen off the other side of the rail. His trajectory has been in a bad direction for a long time. In the post-Obergefell world, we MUST be clear on this. Matthew 19:1-11 is one of the most important Bible passages for our day. As a practicing physician, I fear for my license over this issue, given the direction of the professional societies on the LGBT issue. I appreciate your clarity and fleshing this out. Looking forward to further responses.
I think many of us feel the pressure to conform. I'm a high school teacher and it is scary considering how anti-Christian the modern culture is. I have determined to live by my convictions. I will not tolerate LGBT bullying, but I also am clear I do not agree with it. I respect students enough to call them by name and not a false pronoun
May the Lord protect you and keep as you seek to " not conform to the patterns of this world..." These are scary times for health care providers as I am one. BUT UNTO HIM WHO IS ABLE... we commit our fates🙏🏽🙏🏽
My issue is, of course I want to treat people with respect and compassion, but not at the expense of truth. What is being demanded is affirmation of sin, and if you don't affirm, you don't have compassion so I'm repeatedly told I'm not being loving.
1 Cor 13:4 4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. This is the definition of love, but keep in mind that God is love and Christ, the apostles AB-SO-LUTELY brought condemnation and conviction onto people by telling them what their sin was and how they were failing. But not out of a desire to crush them or hurt them, but to bring them to repentance so they can live rightly under God. An example in Matthew 23:31 from the word of God himself 31 “But in saying that, you testify against yourselves that you are indeed the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead and finish what your ancestors started. 33 Snakes! Sons of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of hell? Saying things they find hurtful or rude doesn't make you unloving. It's the intention of it and that's between you and God.
Our loving Father disciplines His children. Remember Christ’s words to the rich man, to be saved that he would need to sell all his worldly goods and follow Him. He went away disappointed and Jesus did not run after him saying- ok, just give a bit of your riches away. 🙂
Love must be built on truth ; any love outside of truth is unsustainable. That's why God is Love - because He is Truth. Love and Truth are inseparable. Living falsehood, any degree of falsehood, is a denial of meaning ; to deny meaning is to obstruct the transmission of value. All sin is an obstruction of value, and all sin is founded in falsehood, since perfect knowledge would result in perfect action. Being uncompromising on sin is thus the most loving way you can be for other people. I hope that was understandable. I'm not very well rehearsed in using Christian terminology, but my journey began with an obsession with the concept of truth.
@@fusion9619 You make perfect sense IMO :) You may approach God through many different paths, but the Truth-path is definitely the easiest for me as well.
Jesus literally drew a line (John 8:6). And while it seems like it's in agreement with what Andy Stanley says, it is only in reference to violent punishment/execution of people for their sins. This is where you already agreed with Andy - we shouldn't abuse people because of their sinfulness. But we cannot be silent about what is sinful. We all are sinners, but turning a blind eye to anyone's sins is not loving.
Not true at all, God blesses many people in the old testament who did not follow a more "tradition" marriage/relationships AND both God and Paul very explicitly justify slavery and have no problem with Christians still being christians and yet continuing the SIN of owning another human being
Stanley has crossed a boundary into another country and can no longer be considered a Christian preacher but a heretical preacher. What is stronger than agree to disagree...anathema?
Stanley has made a serious mistake. It is possible he is a heretic, however we should be fully aware, he may have confused his desire to bring people to Christ with his duty to uphold clear scriptural teaching. I always encourage people to be quick to call out bad doctrine, but slow to attack the person it came from. we need to see what his reaction is to people like Dr. Gavin.
Church discipline is first come to them in love and correct them. If they refuse correction, bring someone they respect and another witness. If they refuse them, bring them before the church. If they still refuse to repent, Paul commanded the church cast out the man engaged in sexual immorality in Corinth. When the man DID repent, he told them to let him back in, lest he be crushed. It's disciplinary but out of Love, hoping the man comes back to Christ.
The problem starts with making sin a part of our core identity. What's the most important thing in the world, falling in love and getting married or where we spend eternity? We don't build theology around our failure to have dominion over the desires of our flesh.
You do not even consider you are heterosexual you just are, just as homosexuals do; it may be hard for you to imagine being attracted to the same sex but you did not choose heterosexuality nor does the homosexual they just are. Now if you claim you chose heterosexuality then there is choice but I doubt you will.
This is the big issue. If a person calls himself or herself a Gay Christian they are accepting the first word as on par with the second and linked together. If a person says they are a Christian who struggles with same s*x attraction they are saying something very different.
@@wejpasadena1 This is the big issue? the only big issue? It seems a certain type of Christian is fixated on less than one per cent of the population the big issue could equally be the fornicating Christians in the church.
@@annodomini7250 Yes, how we identify ourselves is huge! It defines our core concept of self. If we root our identity in Christ and in the struggle to reject sin and follow Him we are making clear that we embrace the work God has done and is doing in our hearts. In addition the term G*y itself is closely identified with a political/social agenda which is antithetical to Christian doctrine. Fornication is sinful, but right now there aren’t a lot of people insisting that the Church change its teaching on this subject. If there were, then that would be a big issue.
@Quint-ib4nf YOU: Gay is not sexual immorality though. *ME: Homosexuality is not immoral for the world -- you can do whatever you wish. But homosexuality and cross dressing are immoral for Jews and Christians* -- Deut 22:5, Leviticus 18:22, Lev 20:13, Romans 1:25-28, etc -- *and according to the Apostle, those living active immoral sexual lives* (adultery, fornication, homosexuality, bestiality, etc) *are to be removed from the Church so that the entire congregation is not corrupted -- 1Corinth 5*
Sexual orientation is intrinsic, God-created, and inherently good for homosexual and heterosexual people alike. Jesus died for our sins, not our homosexual or heterosexual orientation.
@@DebbyEvans this is so obviously wrong it's disturbing you believe it. Apply that logic to any other sin - sexual or otherwise- and it falls apart. Rapists, pedophiles, pornographers, etc. do not have intrinsic, God created, and inherently good orientations. Their sexuality has been warped by experience and environment. Homosexuality is no different. Pretending otherwise is just deception.
@@DebbyEvans YOU: Sexual orientation is intrinsic, God-created, and inherently good for homosexual and heterosexual people alike *ME: You are obviously not a Christian -- the GOD of the Bible does not "create homosexuals" -- GOD hates homosexuality so much that GOD uses homosexuality as a CURSE on those that blaspheme GOD -- read Romans 1:25-28.* Please stop forcing Jews and Christians to reject their own GOD's views on sexual sin/debauchery and embrace the hedonism of the corrupted evil World culture -- you have no right to do that, Debby.
"We aren't trying to change Christian values, it's just that our interpretation of Christian values just-so-happens to correspond to modern, ideological values as much as possible without also scaring off too many people." Wow what a coincidence.
Telling Christians that they need to listen to the voices of those who embrace & promote sinful lifestyles is just a more subtle & palatable way of saying, "You need to walk in the counsel of the ungodly, stand in the way of sinners, & sit in the seat of scoffers." Also, John the Baptist: "Repent of your sins, you brood of vipers." Celeb evangelicals: "I just want to adopt a posture of listening and understanding, not saying 'this or that is wrong.' I want them to know I am for them, even if we disagree about their lifestyle."
I appreciate this video Pastor Ortlund. Too many leaders today are clouding the issue and it’s always encouraging to see someone stand for truth. Keep on fighting the good fight of faith!
Gavin’s clip of Andy starts about 3m too late. You MUST watch the whole sermon referenced - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JEPHnpos17A.html . If you do not watch the entire sermon from Andy, please watch from the 39 min mark on. Andy affirms Paul’s stance on same sex sin in Romans 1, 1 Cor 6 and 1st Timothy 1. He also affirms that sex outside of marriage is sin and that sin is only between one man and one woman.
@bobtaylor I have watched the whole thing. Stanley contradicts himself. What if we substituted another sin issue, like porn watching, as Gavin proposed, or, say, adultery, sex with children, wife beating, murder, etc.? One could compromise on any biblical issue if one were so inclined, and find a “biblical” excuse for it. Who was it who said, “Did God not say…?” We are not here to please ourselves. Be kind and understanding to repentant sinners. We are such ourselves. But Jesus and the Apostles had harsh words for the unrepentant, and for those who encourage their sinful behavior.
@@melodysledgister2468important to approach this issue with compassion. Nothing wrong with first drawing people to Christ and his love for them rather than as a starting point saying you’re going to hell if you don’t change. I bet many of these same critics, had they homosexual urges, would have just a hard time resisting them. What I don’t get though is why does it matter with belief in sola fide? Jesus did all the work so all people have to do is profess faith in him and they are saved right? How many sins do you continue to do on a daily basis?
I know this is a bit of a non sequitur, but it occurred to me in reading through several early church fathers, and even up to Anselm, who Gavin mentions in this video, just how little they all refer to Mother Mary. Her position and veneration in Catholic and Orthodox traditions really is a modern invention. I'd encourage my brothers and sisters in Christ to seek out their wisdom. And, in all things, weigh their words against the holy scriptures. I think you'll find that not much has changed under the sun.
Jesus drew circles? Was inclusive? “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's foes will be members of one's own household” (Matthew 10:34-36). The line is unrepentant sin Mr. Stanley. This is the kind of rhetoric we hear from people who don't believe in inerrancy.
I've heard it said, "If you confuse you lose." Andy Stanley lost us with bringing unfortunate obfuscation over something that is very clear in Scripture. And worse, missed an opportunity to share a fuller presentation of the gospel as you highlighted. I really appreciate the clarity you brought here.
I've also been told; The Bible is meant to be understood. It should be represented as written. The moment you start adding to it like he did you are going astray.
I think the best comparison to SS Attraction is to replace "homosexual" with "fornicator". Both are sins without a victim. The only people directly harmed by it are the people engaged in the act. A trick progressives try to use is that by saying SSM is biblically forbidden, you are being exclusive and keeping people from sitting at the table with Jesus. However, if people tried to say that saying pre-marital sex is forbidden means you're keeping fornicators from sitting at the table with Jesus, we'd obviously see how acceptance of fornication doesn't follow from that reasoning.
You obviously didn’t watch Andy’s message. If you think someone that has same sex attraction (not acting on them) is a sin then I’m not sure what to tell you
@@1donknight I agree that mere same sex attraction isn't a sin, the same way opposite sex attraction isn't a sin. It's only sinful when it turns into lust or behavior, the same way extramarital sex works.
Nice Video! Speaking of western culture today, I think there is so much freedom that we may be blinded to the past and what God intended. Granted as a society, we still have sense of certain things that are wrong (rape, pedo, etc). I think the issue with same-sex marriage arrives as society seems to be more secular than the past, and trying to explain the dangers and issues to someone who doesn’t want to know Christ or have a preconceived notion about Him.
The first thing we learn about history is nobody learns from history. I recall a survey a few years ago that 25% of Protestants read the bible and 15% of Catholics. That may be a decade old now and I expect the number is even lower. The majority of people, let alone those claiming to be Christian, absolutely do not understand God's commands nor the reasons why he commands them.
I'm convinced that part of the reason we Christians have so much difficulty in lovingly relating to LGBTQ persons is that chaste singleness, as a serious call of life, is dismissed, unsupported, and even viewed with suspicion in the practical life of the church. This is because American Christianity has made marriage an idol. Consequently, chaste singleness is (unjustly) bereft of almost all the temporal goods of married life and is treated like a third-class citizenship in most congregations, especially conservative ones. Singleness (as a call of life or otherwise) is undesirable and seen as ridiculous, so ridiculous that living in flagrant disobedience to the Scriptures "makes more sense" by all practical assessments.
@@RhenishHelmFacts. We live in a world that does not know how to fully love unromantically, that does not know how to lay down their lives for their friend.
@@toonnaobi-okoye2949 This. Friendship is undermined almost everywhere in church culture. Sadly, marriage often operates, sinfully, as its primary competitor and underminer.
I know a few commenters may have aluded to it, but I am posting verses... 1Cor5:11-12 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler-not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
I was in a committed same-sex relationship, active in an affirming church, then I clinically died for 22 minutes, and experienced God’s harsh judgement of my sexual sin, then endured darkness and the demonic torment in hell. Please don’t be deceived.
@@CrossAndWindMinistries no, it seems to me sociopathic and psychopathic people will say anything to justify their homophobia. Your bigotry is not excused because you made up a fake story. Your bigotry murders people and is responsible for the centuries long oppression of gay people whose humanity you deny by reducing them to ‘sexual sin’.
@@CrossAndWindMinistriesI understand, if what you say is true, we live in a universe controlled by evil as Isaiah says. I think as rational beings we must acknowledge that the universe is cruel and indifferent, its alleged creator must have the same qualities. If I ever were to believe in this deity, of course I would “worship” it and beg for my life, but reason and the Bible suggest this is an evil deity, and perhaps it’s better to worship the evil and capricious than to be tortured forever. But then again, we are easily deluded creatures, which perhaps is why you experienced what you did.
Every time I hear an evangelical speak on the subject of homosexuality, the word that stands out is “BUT.” “We Christians love you gays so much, BUT . . .” In my experience, evangelicals are so busy protecting God's holiness, that they don't reach out with love. Or to put it another way, evangelicals would rather run the risk of being judgmental, and unwelcoming than take a chance that someone - anyone - would think them guilty of being impious. I didn't attend the Unconditional Conference, but it seems to have emphasized God's love instead of God's holiness. I think maybe that's a good thing, though I'm sure many will disagree. Dr. Ortlund, I take your point about being careful not to sell a false bill of goods. But, will we draw people into the fold by showing them the hard edge of holiness? or by holding them in a warm embrace of love? How does a non-Christian apprehend the kindness of Jesus you spoke about so passionately in your closing if not through the uncritical (dare I say “unconditional”) love of a believer? We all have cultural blind spots? Without a doubt. But could the Stanley critics be the ones with the blind spot?
Please note the point(s) made regarding "loving" and how it is defined. Something we can be certain of is that never will God's Holiness "conflict" with His Love. It is certain that if we are "loving" another in that which is sinful/unholy before God, we are most assuredly not loving them. The way in which we reach out and are clear that we are "one beggar showing another where to get bread" and our hearts are soft in delivering "tough love" is certainly worth working through
@@toddcarll I'm not sure what you mean when you write, “It is certain that if we are 'loving' another in that which is sinful/unholy before God, we are most assuredly not loving them.” I guess the part which most confuses me is when you say, “loving another IN THAT WHICH IS unholy/sinful”? Does that mean that until gays/lesbians repent of their unholy/sinful behavior, they are unworthy of love? Or is it more of a love-the-sinner-hate-the-sin kind of deal where Christians ought to love gays and lesbians BUT hate that they are gay? If the latter, ought we to hate the fact that gays/lesbians have same sex attraction (i.e. it's the same sex attraction which is sinful/unholy) or only hate it if they have a gay or lesbian relationship? I'm also unclear about delivering tough love with a soft heart. Not sure what that would look like. You write that part is “worth working through,” so maybe you're not sure what that would look like either? I love the quote from Spurgeon! I had never heard it before. I wish I could see that evangelicals were living that quote, but I do not. I see judgment and a sense of moral superiority, especially where this issue of gays and lesbians are concerned - like one beggar is nicer, better dressed, and doesn't smell as bad. Thank you for taking time to share your thoughts!
Great video, Gavin. As always, you've provided a very clear, Biblical, pastoral, and sober-minded analysis of this very important and controversial issue without sacrificing truth to compassion or vice versa. Keep up the great work!
I think an important thing to point out is that in Galatians 5, when the fruits of the spirit are listed, self control is there. So one could say that a lack of self control is comparable to a lack of love, or kindness, or gentleness. That says a lot about sexual immorality, whether it be from a homosexual relationship or a heterosexual porn watcher. Thanks for the video Dr Ortlund, really appreciate the work you do. Idk how you find the time!
Christians need to speak up. One of the reasons I stayed away from Christianity for so long was that they didn't appear to stand by their supposed convictions. I don't mean to shift blame - it was only one of the reasons ; another reason was that I also didn't have the strength to act on my beliefs. But I tend to admire people who stand their ground, in whatever context. Don't back down. I might not even agree initially, but if I see someone not backing down, I might join their side just because I see their courage. There are so many issues where Christians need to stand up, and mostly they don't. Who, other than Christians, is going to push back against the tyranny of censorship? Or the tyranny of surveillance? Or the tyranny of forced vaccinations? If Christians don't push back, no one will. And yet... Almost no Christians do. We're sheep... That's not necessarily a good thing. And if we conform to the world on the issue of gay not-marriage, then that defeat will roll into more defeats and we'll lack the strength and experience to stand against other issues, where our participation is critical. And people will choose to stay away from Christ, because we are Luke warm, milk toast, wet sock, losers.
When Stanley said "We draw Circles not Lines" is a Smoke Screen for Excusing Sin!! JESUS Never excused Sin!! He Lovingly told the woman caught in Adultery " Go and SIN NO MORE " ..So, HE LOVED Her, Affirmed her as a Child of GOD and then told her THE TRUTH..." Sin No MORE" .. WHY? Because HIS WAY, is the BEST WAY, The Way HE Designed it, which is GOOD and PERFECT!!! Chastity IS POSSIBLE because I AM DOING IT NOW by JESUS' POWER!! ALL Things are POSSIBLE IN CHRIST!! I walk EVERYDAY in the PROMISE of Ephesians 3: 20-21 " Now to HIM who is ABLE to do IMMEASURABLY MORE than ALL we Ask or IMAGINE, According to HIS POWER that is at Work WITHIN us" ...THAT is THE TRUTH!!!
The analogy of homosexuality and pornography is fundamentally flawed. Pornography can be set aside easily if you have a healthy relationship with your spouse and you are attracted to, and are fulfilled by them. Homosexuality is about attraction. You don't choose who youre attracted to, and it may be impossible for a homosexual to have a fulfilled relationship with a member of the opposite sex. That is no fault of the individual. This issue is far more nuanced than this argument can be.
I am a born again ex practicing gay man .....Holy Spirit convinced me to stay celubate & chaste ....yes ....a very difficult cross ...but Jesus is there with me ... I still feel same sex atteaction and resist this . We must repent ....gay life style is sinful & against Word of God Repentance means turning away from....realuzing that this is unacceptable in a cheistian life ... WE MUST DO GODS WILL NOT OUR OWN Pastors ..... encourage me ...us ....give us support .... Eternity is at stake .....ive been repentant for over 40 years ...sure i have had difficult times & fell ....but we get up ...confess our sin Jesus is faithful to forgivev& heal .... JESUS CALLS ME TO BE SINGLE & CHASTE .... i have accepted it .....and help others too in the same situation i am .... PASTORS DONT GIVE IN TO COMPROMISE WITH SIN .. NON REPENTANT GAY RELATIONSHIPS ARE NOT CHRISTIAN....AND NOT SAVED .... i must die every day to my sexuality ....that is my cross Jesus fills me with His presence love deep peace ... Praise God that by Gods grace i came out of this HELL of LGBTQ milieu ... Amen
Thank you for weighing in and speaking truth with kindness and clarity. It seems truth and clarity flew out the window since the emergent and progressive church movement. Many in the churches are not being taught the scriptures and have little knowledge of the church fathers and church history. The RCC and Eastern churches have three year catechisms in order to instruct people. The Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian and some Baptist churches had creeds and confessions and Catechisms for instruction. The churches I attended were non denominational so I didn’t receive a lot of that instruction. I made up for that after I retired. I got a better understanding of some of the groups and origins of certain teachings that were prevalent in the second century and origins of other practices after 500AD. A lot of what we’re seeing today was taking place in the past. Again you have been a great source for keeping people informed of these things. Thank you.
I think it's very good to recognize the valid parts of someone's argument even when you disagree with them on their central points. Christians should absolutely affirm that caring for those who currently, or previously, identify with LGBTQ ideals is a good thing and that loving them is Christ-like, but that does not mean that we should ever affirm or condone what God calls sin. The true "quieter middle ground" is to believe that we should love those who are tempted towards these sins, as toward any other sin, totally, and call them unconditionally to repent of them, while offering all the support, prayer and care that we can to them as they do so.
@@StudentDad-mc3pu What do you mean by "being gay"? Do you mean having attractions to members of the same sex, or having sexual relations with the same sex? The Bible does not recognize the new modern concepts of a sexual identity nor does it condemn the existence of attractions. It does categorically and absolutely condemn homosexual sexual relationships though.
An attraction is NOT sin. If so, Jesus sinned as he was attracted and had to be in order to be tempted. Where did Jesus address same-sex attraction is sin? Please show me where in the Gospels he condemns those who are same-sex attracted in permanently-committed, bonded through God in monogamous love? He could have, but he didn’t. Instead, he chose to warn against judging others.🤔✌🏼
@@TednGilbertAZ He did not condemn the existence of attractions as sin but he did condemn acting on those attractions. This means that those who are tempted, or attracted, towards committing sins have disordered desires that must be fought against in order to keep themselves from sinning, but the existence of the desire itself is not sinful. The idea of those who are same-sex attracted living in "permanently-committed, bonded through God, monogamous love" is both sinful and incongruous though. It is sinful because Jesus affirms the old testament law, which condemns Homosexual acts (Matthew 5:17). He then adds to this his own positive definition of marriage in Mark 10: 6-10, where appeals directly to the creation account to firmly ground the purpose of marriage and sex itself. This passage and others make it clear that the only kind of marriage that God recognizes is monogamous and heterosexual. In light of this, we should be very cautious about advocating for views that deviate from what the Bible clearly teaches, and what the church has believed for the entirety of its existence. Jesus' warnings in Matthew 18: 6-9 and 18-20 very clearly show that those who lead others into sin will be punished with terrible severity, and those who refuse to repent from their sin will be cast out of the church. In light of this we should exhort one another with love and truth, striving to assist one another so that no one might be lost to lies and temptations of any kind.
So well said Pastor Gavin, you spoke the truth in love, that is the most helpful and kind thing to do. I’m reminded of the scripture that God gives more grace in James 4:6 Grace to help us to submit to him in all things.
This is great, Gavin. *Clarity is loving*. I think this sort of unclarity is also unloving on a pastoral and missional. People who are same sex attracted will eventually perceive this sort of thing as gaslighting/they'll experience whiplash. On one level they hear "we can disagree and it's all good" and another they hear in hushed and whispered tones, "yeah but your lifestyle is one of sin". That kind of contradiction in missional approach--if you really think gay sexual relations are sin--leaves people feeling betrayed. People leave the church over stuff like this because they feel like they've been baited and switched. It's much better to just lovingly and compassionately speak with clarity on sin.
Thanks for the excellent video Dr. Ortlund. I find Andy Stanley's language about drawing lines or drawing circles as too vague. What exactly does that mean? When it comes to accepting people into our churches I think nearly all churches welcome everyone unconditionally to their public services. At the same time they would usually limit leadership positions to those not living in unrepentant sin and recognizing only the biblical definition of marriage. There is a need to be specific about these issues.
YOU: When it comes to accepting people into our churches I think nearly all churches welcome everyone unconditionally to their public services *ME: And thats the problem. Believers gathering together (church) is for BELIEVERS (Acts 2:46-47), not people claiming to be believers but are living active sexually perverse lifestyles* (adultery, fornication, homosexuality, etc) -- *that is why the Apostle instructed the Congregation to remove any person living in open sexual sin -- because if they don't, the entire congregation will be corrupted -- 1Corinth 5* This applies to everyone, not just leadership.
Super helpful Gavin. Appreciate your handling of such issues head on but from a Christ-like humility that to me is the intended way for the Holy Spirit to do a work in lives 🙏
Even if you have the opinion that sexuality is not an extremely important topic in and of itself, it is extremely important to stand firm in the truth where our culture is rooted in lies. It’s important to make a stand on this because our culture is so staunchly in the other direction.
Thank you for bringing up that singles have to fight the sustainability remark. That immediately stuck out to me that he is excluding singles in a sermon for inclusion. If you let one thing in you’ll have to open to all the sexual sins which is very scary. That was an interesting thought putting the purity culture under the sex idol.
Because part of his position is that his church should be affirming of the gay lifestyle. You cannot advocate for the sin and call people to repentance for that sin. he has fallen away from the true gospel, unfortunately.@@johnbrion4565
@@johnbrion4565Andy spoke of “drawing circles instead of lines” and of “inclusion.” Does that sound like, “Repent and forsake your sin?” It’s not productive or honest to ask, “How do you know if Andy didn’t tell them to repent?” Please cut to the chase and produce for us the fact that he did indeed tell them to repent. Quote him, please, so that we can know. Show us that he did. If you can’t quote him, we have no reason to believe or know that he told them to repent, especially in light of everything we know he did indeed say, which was oozing with tolerance, inclusivism, and “circles, not lines.” If I’m coming on strong it’s because I think you’re being unfair and unreasonable. Andy said a lot of recorded and documented words. None of them were “repent.” None of them tended in the direction of “repent.” Do we base our judgment of his position if him on what we DON’T know what he said or on what we do? A sound teacher would have immediately said, “Repent,” without leaving us to wonder. Andy hasn’t given us that. If he has and we’re wrong, please produce the evidence. Until then, we’re not going to base our appraisal of him on what he MIGHT’VE said. Blessings to you.
@@laikwanstone8929 is all they have to do to say they repent? What if they say they repent and keep living life together as a married couple. Why does it matter as long as you profess Jesus is your savior then aren’t you saved? Don’t you believe you aren’t saved by works? So why does it matter if they live in sin. Everyone sins. Is what saves us merely saying we repent of our sins? Or merely acknowledging the sin and then we can keep doing the sin?
Hey Gavin I was wondering if you could do I video on Humor, the a biblical, and church history perspective on humor. That’s something that I’ve struggled with in my Christian life. And it’s something that I wish to rediscover in my Christian life. Humor at times troubles my conscious. I feel like I can’t enjoy it because I feel so much is off limits. Maybe I just see things through the wrong lens.
Hey Gavin. Do you have any content on contraception? I recently watched one of McDowell‘s videos hosting a conversation about it and have been looking into Luther and Calvin’s thoughts on the issue. It seems like it could be a fairly big issue of unacknowledged sin and I wonder how you would triage it?
Their decision is not the churches problem. The Christain life is a life of the cross. Jesus said, if YOU'RE not willing to take up your CROSS and follow Me, you CANNOT be My disciple. 2 Cor. 6 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
The extent to which we are a disciple doesn't negate initial belief in Christ for salvation. We are all sinners in process. A believer can be a bad disciple.
This is good stuff Gavin. I have to admit the attack on church brought on by homosexuality is what had me start looking at the church fathers and start asking the question well what has the church always understood the teaching to be? This then however brought me to the realization that others teaching are inconsistent with my church tradition (southern Baptist) main one being the Eucharist. I feel as though Protestantism is having a hard time wrestling with textualism and originalism because we have to admit we also pick and choose teachings that different from how they were originally taught. We all need to seek the truth and submit to it humbly and pray the holy spirit guides us.
There seems to be a flaw in the logic around this idea that two people made a decision and now we 'respond' to the decision. This isn't accurate. There is biblical message about what behavior is or is not acceptable. They know this and then they DECIDE to ignore, even defy. Us pointing out that their decision violates biblical teachings in a defiant way is not us 'deciding,' anything. We are observing and reacting, our decision is made for us biblically.
We have the situation potentially here in Australia NSW where it will be illegal to call sin sin and offer the gospel hope of transformation. I appreciated this video. I know I am a sinner who needs Jesus, and it pains my heart to see that our society is putting more stumbling blocks in front of sinners to the hope of jesus alone.
13:04 In 1 Corinthians 7, Paul does say that some Christians don't have the gift of remaining single. I think that's why forced celibacy among Catholic priests has caused so much sexual sin; They're forcing people to stay single who never should have been forced to stay celibate.
Thank you pastor for a loving ,crystal clear and Godly response, and give us understanding that people's eternity is at stake, it's living and best to be sincerely honest by speaking the Truth in a loving way🙏
Loving people doesn't mean "affirming" or pretending sin is okay. Jesus never did that. As a matter of fact, the whole purpose of his earthly ministry was showing us why we need salvation and repentence. Love is telling people the truth in Godly ways. So I do think more churches need to have real conversations and spaces where people can share their struggles with sins especially lustful ones. Because of where culture is going people are so fearful of offending others but the gospel is offensive to this fallen world. The early Christians and throughout time even died for their faith. The costs are high but the reward is worth it.
Hit it out of the park. Well done. This is whats happening in these "circles". At the crux of it, prominent pastors are trying to find a way to be on both sides of this issue, in the name of "love", and "compassion". It's deceiving. I just don't see how it can be done. And in doing so all they do is sow confusion and doubt. See Fr James Martin, Pope Francis, etc as well. They just confuse, every time they open their mouths on this. They won't outright deny the Biblical Christian teaching on this topic, but they won't affirm it either. Trent Horn had a video on that a while back. Every time they open their mouths you just wonder. Then you have other Churches who are just silent on it. Like, they don't dare touch it. I think I understand why, but still. By not weighing in on this and intentionally avoiding it, you just further the confusion and doubt. You really hit it on the head talking about repentant sin. All sin is wrong and misses the mark. And a truly convicted sinner seeking God has to hate his sin. Yes he's a sinner still, but since he's no longer defined by that sin, ("the old has past away.. the new has come"), he must hate that sin, all of it. 9:56 "..Come and see, come and sit with us". Come and see what? That some sin is fine to walk in? That some unrepentant sin is fine? I'm pretty sure God hates all of it. And therefore we should too. Our sexuality is a gift from God. It should be honored as such.
I think the issue is "sexuality" which has become an idol. God meant a man "knowing" a woman for the multiplication of our kind on the earth. And not for sport or entertainment, which is abuse and misuse.
In the noise of the different voices in the American church regarding this issue, both orthodox and heterodox, it can be confusing for newer Christians trying to navigate these waters in society today. Is the sin in regards to homosexuality, simply put, the physical sexual act? If that is the case, then, would it still be sinful for two God-loving Christian men or women who happen to be same-sex attracted to be in an exclusive, chaste, wholly non-sexual, celibate relationship/friendship?
What if a man and a woman, both tempted to cheat on their spouses, were encouraged to enter into an exclusive, chaste, wholly non-sexual, celibate relationship/friendship? In theory, that would be fine, but in practice that is deeply unwise.
I was so delighted to find your channel after watching your recent video of the Alex'O'Connor debate, and then listening to your nuanced takes on climate change and creation/evolution. It was also refreshing to see your format, tone, and kindness with how you approach polarizing issues. You explained how you think these issues face friction in the western Christian communities largely because of the social/political/cultural dynamics at play, and not on just their scientific basis, in fact you give examples of the scientific consensus on human caused climate change and the overwhelming evidence, and how Christians should actually be embracing climate change and be good stewards of the earth. So when I got to this video, I was extremely disappointed in your take here. It seems to me you have a giant blindspot on this issue, as it has nearly identical parallels with climate change and evolution, and are plagued with the same cultural misunderstandings and social/political noise. Sexuality in nature is very diverse, and scientific understanding of homosexuality also has overwhelming consensus and evidence, it has been found in countless other species and has always existed in humanity. Furthermore, nature, nurture, and psychology all come in to play here. It is clear from the evidence that humans do not choose their sexuality, it emerges from countless variables during development and psychology, and it is very much a spectrum, and not just straight or gay. Also, you can not will yourself to be different than you are, and attempts to do so by religious groups have caused those involved irreparable harm and suffering. I implore you to explore the evidence of human sexuality and what I have said with the same fervor you have with climate change. Now, I know this video is 8 months old now, and it could be your view has changed since then, but I'm hoping I can at least help point you towards what could be a defining moment for you to understand a new perspective, even if you still disagree.
I watched the entire Andy Stanley "sermon" while I agree with much of what you say, I think to be fair to Andy Stanley you should have shown the segment near the end when Stanley affirms their position is that sex is only for a heterosexual couple in the context of marriage. Now we might question if some of the rest of what he says and Northpoint has done might be subversive of that position but we should be clear they have affirmed the traditional position.
@@tstjohn777I think we need to be clear he affirmed biblical teaching. Now you might question his motives but I think Gavin is remiss in not making that affirmation of traditional teaching from Stanley clear
@@SCOTTISHSOULFOOD1 If I affirm that adultery is sin, but that we shouldn't make adulterers stop seeing their mistresses do I actually affirm the biblical doctrine about adultery? No. "Adultery is sinful. The bible is clear on this. But if someone has held a public ceremony with their mistress that they will always love each other and continue in their adultery, and never repent, we should accept them where they are at."
I have been looking at Dueteronomy 13 recently. It is interesting that the laws does not condemn those who leave, but those who "entice" those away with falsehood. I feel like people should really consider this on this kind of topic. Are we being enticed away by something else, like a desire to be liked by the world.
The worst part about taking Stanley's stance is we are not truly loving people. We are not sharing the freedom that Christ died to give us in every area of our life: in relationship to God and other humans, and in our sexual identity. I know so many people who've been set free from homosexual, heterosexual, and other forms of sexual addiction and confusion. They would never go back to being enslaved, to constant torment, guilt, and shame..
Praise God Brother. I'm thankful for the Lord leading me here as I've been blessed with knowledge each time I've had the opportunity to sit and watch one of your videos since I joined. I've heard several pastors with that "circle" view and its a very dangerous place to stand. Yes, compassion is a invaluable when trying to reach the lost, however, assuring people they'll spend eternity with the Lord regardless of their ways is anything but compassionate. I absolutely love and appreciate the way you share the Truth. Words of Wisdom and Knowledge are present.
Tremendous video Gavin!! I always enjoy your content. Oh how believers, unbelievers and the Church need to confess our hubris. Our pride keeps us from truly loving and repenting!
While I don't experience same-sex attraction, I've always been chaste and old-fashioned for 31 years. Despite having a strong sexual desire for men, like the others do, I've committed to remaining pure until marriage. And if it's God's will for me not to marry, I'm content with staying sexually pure for the rest of my life, even if it means to never experiencing sex and to fight the desire and temptation everyday. I believe I'm not alone in this journey. Stanley's position has led me to question the distinction often made between being gay and straight. If the type of temptation is just the same, then what's so special of being gay? Why there must be another alternative solution (however unbiblical) to offer to them? As he mentioned the reasons they go for same sex marriage are love, companionship, and family, where many Christians who doesn't experience SSA have exactly similar desires for these things too, and yet many are committed to be single and remained sexually pure to obey God. I mean, regardless of our sexual orientation, if we don't place our identity in it, then there won't be a difference. As long as we put our identity not in our sexuality but in Christ, nothing else really matters.
God bless you, Gavin, for your thoughtful insight to this issue of our day. As always, you are a trustworthy and sober minded source. I think this topic has to rank highly on the theological triage model, given how rampantly it is assaulting the church right now. Keep up the good work, brother.
Thanks for this clear response. Andy Stanley is wrong. I understand his desire to be supportive of people in their journey of faith, but to baptize sin is not the way to do it. Christ calls us to repentance, and the work of the Spirit is transformation. After listing some wrongdoers who will not inherit the kingdom of God, men who practice sex with other men being one such group, Paul reminds his readers, "But this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
