"On the Box" is a daily (Monday through Friday) live, 28-minute, web-based talk show hosted by Ray Comfort and the Living Waters team. www.ustream.tv/... Episode #341
Thankyou for this video!!! The ICC was evangelizing on my campus in Amsterdam. I talked with them and they were so nice. Went to a couple of their meetings, doing fun activities and nice Bible studies. Then I went into their Bible studies program. They told me I shouldn't look them up online (which I just did now🙈) because people were talking bad about them. They told me this was because Jesus told us already that true Christians will be persecuted, like He was. Also they told me I wasn't saved based on the fact I wasn't water baptized. This was a major shock for me, I love God with all my heart and have accepted Jesus as my Savior. But they showed me a couple verses throughout the Bible which makes it look like water baptism is necessary for salvation. I told them I wanted to check it myself, and read the Bible books as a whole, to understand the full context. At that point the pastors wife, who was giving me the Bible study, got so mad at me (?!). Mad at me for wanting to read the Bible????? She said she felt personally attacked, that I didn't love her and that I should just trust her. She told me that the Devil is attacking me to not see the (their) truth. She told me that she was so hurt, she was a mother and now she couldn't be with her kids because she made the time for me. I had to apologize to her... it was completely insane. Today I studied the Bible for 8 hours straight, prayed to God to reveal the truth and I can see so clearly that they are lying!! Praise God that I didn't get in too deep! Now I hope people see this video and read people's comments and know the truth about this church (cult)!!! God bless🙏🏼
@@michellekoornneef5246 Helaas wel man, maar het was gelukkig maar een 2/3 maanden lang avontuur. Zag de 1e x dat ik de kerk binnenkwam al veel rode vlaggen, maar koos er zelf voor om het ff te negeren. Want wilde niet oordelen toch, maarja an 2 maanden had ik wel genoeg gezien om te zeggen dat onze wegen wel moeten scheiden
@@andjelko1999 ahhh joh, zo lang ook nog. Dan is dat best een heftige ervaring geweest lijkt me? Jaa herkenbaar, niet willen oordelen maar eigenlijk was het wel duidelijk vanaf het begin :/ Maar praise God dat je er uit bent!!
They actually had me convinced I wasn't saved after I'd already accepted Christ. No matter how bad they made me feel (there was a lot of scolding over things not necessary to scold for too), I figured I was quitting on God if I left... until I realized that I would be expected to treat others the way they treated ME!
I'm so thankful for the Internet! Honestly! Without testimonies and videos like this I honestly don't think I could have seen the control I was under in this church. I pray for all of them.
Yes and The Holy Spirit leads people to follow after that. The ICOC is not the only church that helps people grow in the Lord. You can’t believe you are actually the only ones. It’s arrogant.
@@Eyesofmars2040 Mam it is also mention that even the suppose to be disciples leave the Church, and cannot accept the teachings of Jesus pls read John 6:66. They said, "THIS IS A HARD TEACHING...
@Peter Yes Sir, Paul mention that we are saved by Grace not by works is true. Because that time, he is talking to religious people who still holding to their tradition. And boasting about it. But as a true disciple of Christ we should not take that as an excuse not to make every effort to struggle and fight against all the temptations we encounter Daily. Denying ourself Daily is not an easy task. Because we are still in the flesh.
My husband and I belonged to this cult in the early to mid 90s. It took a decade to undo the damage done and for us to heal. Then, we were finally able to be truly saved!
I'm not a member of the ICoC. That being said, you claim that Baptism is adding a work to Grace. Following the Commands of God cannot be considered a work. If Baptism is a work, saying the sinner's prayer would be a work, the same could be said for confession. If Baptism is a work and not a necessity for salvation, why were the Eunuch and the house of Cornelius Baptized? Why did Jesus make His statement in Mark 16: 16?
Does baptism or Christ save you from sin? Scripture needs to be taken in context. Many were baptized as a profession of faith. The thief at the cross wasn’t baptized. His faith saved him.
Why was Jesus baptized??? Why was the theif not baptized? If you die on your way to baptism - sorry! The sinners prayers is a false teaching. Yet you give it as evidence. We are to be baptized, take the Lords table - not for salvation.
I’m just looking for strong Christian church that upholds to the Bible’s teachings. I had an ICC member reach out to me to study the Bible. I said sure Bc I love reading gods word and learning more about his word. I did start seeing some red flags like the “one true church”. They also said you absolutely have stay in the ICC community. I also asked if they believed other Christians were saved and they shy’d away from the question. I’m 6 bible studies in, and I’m just not totally certain. They uphold to the Bible and I like that. The cult characteristics are alarming. I just don’t know what to do. I just want to be right with god and find a good Christian church
I've been a lifelong Christian and went into these bible studies thinking that it would delve deeper into God's Word. There were definitely redflags throughout the bible studies I went to. They made sure to pair 3 church members to teach just one of me in the bible study (so if I ever had a different belief compared to their church, all three of them would take turns to tell me why I'm wrong. It really manipulated me into agreeing with them just to get them to stop ganging up on me). They basically told me that I wasn't a Christian and am going to hell just because I wasn't out there evangelizing daily, or just because I might have sinned the other day. But the last straw for me was when they told me that my Christian family wasn't good enough to keep me spiritually accountable to the Bible. That I needed to be led by a spiritual mentor from their church in order to be kept in line with the Bible. Keep in mind, they've NEVER met my family so how could they make such an outrageous statement like that? Ridiculous!! Yes, the way they preach some of the scriptures is biblical, and initially, that's what made me so confused. They know what the bible says and how to explain Scripture, yet their application of Scripture is completely unbiblical. They rely on works rather than faith. And the way their church is set up is eerily similar to other cults I've learned about. I do hope you've found a better, stronger Christian church by now! God bless!
You need to leave the cult they are works based. The Bible says our good works are as filthy rags. None are worthy no not one. You can't earn your way to heaven. The Bible also says if you are guilty of one you are guilty of all. And this is important because the standard for a right standing with God and entrance to heaven is perfection. And since we can't be perfect. Jesus came and lived the perfect life we couldn't. But also this since we sinned the punishment for our sin is death. That's why they did sacrifices of a lamb and so on all the way to the last supper. But Christ died as the perfect sacrifice once and for all. So he is all we need as entrance to heaven believing in his death and resurrection for our sins, and we need repent of our sin. we also need to believe that Jesus is God not just a disciple. There's no such thing as a perfect church while here on earth but there are good churches. That do have members that read the bible everyday. But you have to let the Holy Spirit work out your faith. You can't lean on another person. God will or will not reward you based on your life. On judgement day and based off whether or not you are covered in his blood
@@kittyLseay "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” Romans 4:2-8. This is the exact same complaint I had when I first found out that one of their campus chapters was associated with the ICC (shame on them for taking credit for what is God's work)
"Boy did they go off on me!" So true! I had the bible thrown at me over 3 days. All I wanted was a friend and a group who would replace the family who rejected me. Anyway I was met while on campus at Melbourne University. I was told how much of a 'sinner' I was/ am. They were relentless. Everyone they spoke to and I spoke to after this time was either lost or under suspicion and it was up to me to try and 'fix' them. To the ICOC there is no miraculous salvation or works of the Holy Spirit because they actively preach the 'cessation theory'. Thank God I have woken up to their toxic religious dogma. There was no good news but thankfully now I have heard the good news which is known as the faith/grace message. It is embarrassing, but I was a massive guilt trip which I bought into for some reason and 23 years later, I have heard the grace message and am finally free. My question is how do I reach out to the people who are getting damaged by the ICOC group members, some of who I know are well intended but woefully misguided Christians.
Baptism isn't a "work". When the Bible talks about trying to work for your salvation, it's referring to an attempt to follow the Old Testament law as a way to salvation. This is very difficult to do; no one has ever followed the OT law perfectly. But, how easy it is to be dipped in water. If we were to expand "works" to such a simple action (in fact, a gift of grace), then surely the "work" of believing should also be considered "trying to earn your salvation through works." Of course, it isn't, and neither is water baptism. Once confusions regarding water baptism are cleared away, the Bible seems to harmonize a little more. In this world, there are many false doctrines, and fine-sounding arguments, but we are called to "[Watch your life and doctrine closely. In doing so, you will save both yourself and your hearers.]"
If something is "works{' --- I know you wrote this a long time ago --- it is not a matter of how DIFFICULT it is or how much WORK or trouble it entails --- the idea of being saved by works means you are counting on some action of your own to qualify you. Believing is a response from the HEART. You can dunk in water and not have a HEART change. Water baptism is very important, but if you read the "whole of scripture" --- over time, in the whole of the new testament ---- faith comes out as the clear winner here. In Acts the baptism always comes, but NOT always in the "church of Christ" order. And it is not "the exact right doctrine" that saves us, it is JEsus Christ, and the grace and love of God.
Hey Guys, just wanted to say thank you for your prolife help...also wanted to point out that we no longer say..."give up" for adoption instead we say...the mother placed the baby for adoption. The baby never leaves the mothers heart, just her arms. Many mothers go through a deep sense of loss through the realization of empty arms. So lets honor the birth moms with our language...Thank you so much, love the ministry of Living Waters. You are definitely a cup of cool water in a dry and thirsty land.
I went to the THE ICOC The holy spirit moved me to leave the church. The ICOC in Glendale. It was lukewarm and did not teach spiritual gifts. Never once did the ICOC teach about the holy spirit until 2020 even then it was a phase. I was holy spirit lead out of the church. I have no regrets. That church was spiritually dead and have no fear to say that. I hope God is leading you by the holy spirit. I know this church doesn't do deliverance, healing or prophesying. Jesus ministry was doing deliverance from demons, healing and miracles. The ICOC doesn't believe in it or practice this part of Jesus ministry because they don't have the HOLY SPIRIT.
Yes both my husband and I are truly saved...now, and yet Praise God we did get out! It took us years to realize it, then when God started opening our eyes, the ICOC no longer wanted us because we were spreading truth. It took 10 years to finally heal from that cult. They are truly about control.
I would just hope that whoever is watching this would take the time to get to know people as individuals rather than generalizing a group of people under a label. I've been a member for 9 years. Never had the understanding that we are the "only" church or that one would have had to been baptized in the icoc church to be a Christian. In fact I know many people who joined my church that were not baptized in the icoc. So that statement is just simply not true. Also in regards to the thief on the cross, Romans 6 says that baptism is a participation of the death, burial and resurrection. Not possible for this thief to participate in Jesus' death when Jesus had not yet died. The bottom line though is that baptism really isn't a "one stop shop" for regeneration or becoming a Christian, I don't know anyone in my church that believes that. God has the final say in salvation. He moves in people's lives individually through his word.
Not true. I've been to several sermons and my son got sucked into this. They absolutely claim to the 'only' true Church. In the SF ICOC just last week the 'pastor' said that the other '42000' denominations were not true Christians. I would place the probability that the ICOC is correct in their beliefs at 0.0002%. My message to you: wake up.
John Marshall no matter what they say, they believe and teach that unless you are part of the ICOC you are going to Hell. period. the leaders are controlling and twisted. they are not Biblical. not at all.
Ashley..... read John 19:30-34..... they came to brake those crucified legs.... so they would die faster.... they broke both thieves leg..... they came to JESUS he was already dead.... they didn't need to break his legs.... in verse 19 JESUS says "it is finished" and gave up the ghost ie died.... I read it as Christ did die before the thief.....Peace
I'm apart of the ICC in Charlotte. If it wasn't for them sharing their faith, I wouldn't be a Christian today. I was living with my boyfriend, living in sin,going to a community church that never studied with me or challenged my lifestyle. I can appreciate them helping me because that's how you show love, I can't say I love someone and knowingly sit next to someone who's living with their boyfriend or girlfriend and not share the gospel and the need to repent. Everything I've learned has been scripture based, . For those of you reading, visit a church for yourself and study. I'll even answer any questions you may have via email or phone. My email is Xstreamvacay@gmail.com I would love to share my experience
I was in the ICOC from 2001 to 2005 and I think that as Christians we need to be careful of what we say and do. The makers of this channel need to realize that there are true Christians within the ICOC and that God can move in spite of mans wickedness. I was involved in several different churches on smaller levels of servitude. As a believer, disciple, Christian it is important that no man allow any institution to stand between him and God. Yeshua died on the cross to give us access to YHWH.
I went to an ICOC church for 3 years. I left because I honestly just missed doing my own thing and didn't want to be a hypocrite. But I can honestly say that the church I was apart of consisted of the most loving and genuine people I have ever met. I've never seen so many successful friendships, relationships and marriages in one place. I saw the same in other ICOC churches that I visited too. You all can criticize them all you want. But they must be doing something right. And by the way, I'
This is exactly what I see. I think I’m more comfortable in the church because I am not a disciple. I was born in the church but just never completed my studying and lost interest in it because I hate the idea of being a hypocrite. I couldn’t see myself confessing every little thing I did plus I didn’t want to deny anything. At the same time this is the only church (with every branch I’ve been in around the world) I know I have met the kindest people that are there for you in every single way, long lasting marriages, messages from leaders always feel so right and lovely friends too. Of course we can’t know everything that goes on behind closed doors but I have never felt like I’m in a better community in any other church. I feel like I’d have a different experience being a disciple and being a young single lady. The expectations for disciples are quite strict.
No one teaches baptism saves you, you are saved at baptism though - it is very clear in the scriptures (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:41, Colossians 2:12, Acts 22:16, Galatians 3:27, Matthew 28:19-20, Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 6:1-4).
I'll debate anyone on the subject of baptism. it's very clear from Scripture that it's a must; it's not faith, plus anything it's faith Properly defined. it's not Bragging; it's when your chirstian life begins.
The International Church of Christ (ICC), does not deny any of the essential doctrines of Christianity. Aside from its requirements on baptism as a necessary part of salvation, it is Orthodox. Therefore, I do not categorize the ICC as a non-Christian cult. Rather, I see the ICC as a Christian Church with some serious problems; namely, legalistic and excessive control over its members.
LOVE is the answer... Matthew 22:37-40 Love God with everything you"ve got and love your brothers and sisters as you love yourself. Legalism has no place in the church.... Find a church that preaches love and you will thrive.
I've been a member of icoc for 18 years. I can definitely say that I have never been so close to God. I've grown to love his word, and have deeper convictions to loving the lost n loving God. I'm more apt in reading the bible and praying too. I view the bible as a *Love Book*. Yes, the church has had so many challenges. I know that if a church focuses on a certain scripture, and the other commandments are out of place than yeah satan will run amuck. However, God has lavished his love on us all and continues to show us the right path to take. We are a lot healthier. Each Christian has to carry their cross and follow Jesus not man or an organization. Each have to make an account of what they believe. 2 Timothy 3:16 we need to take an account of ALL scriptures, entire scriptures not just the ones that suits our agenda. So that we may all be thoroughly equip to doing Gods work. I'm forever greatful for all the leadership I have had in my life. I'm sorry for those of you who have had odd experiences with icoc. Truly, I am sorry. I pray that you will be open to the whole bible and study his word throughly. God Bless you All.
I'm apart of the ICC in Charlotte. If it wasn't for them sharing their faith, I wouldn't be a Christian today. I was living with my boyfriend, living in sin,going to a community church that never studied with me or challenged my lifestyle. I can appreciate them helping me because that's how you show love, I can't say I love someone and knowingly sit next to someone who's living with their boyfriend or girlfriend and not share the gospel and the need to repent. Everything I've learned has been scripture based, . For those of you reading, visit a church for yourself and study. I'll even answer any questions you may have via email or phone. My email is Xstreamvacay@gmail.com I would love to share my experience
@@StandForTruth205 , the baptism public profession of faith idea is a weird teaching as there is never a mention of it in the Bible. There must be some fancy fast talkers to seduce people into following this and to get them especially not to notice it's completely missing from the Bible. That just amazes me.
I've grown up in the ICOC, my parents became disciples in 2002 when I was born. I've heard about the whole "cult" thing just from looking into the church online. I've had questions about it and I've asked several people about it all. The bottom line that I hear is that before my parents came into the church, actually they came when the "cult" factors were coming to an end, people weren't handling things correctly. They were very focused on numbers and it became how many people you can get to church and how to make sure they stay. And they also thought that our church was the only "right" church, which is obviously not correct. Apparently this letter was sent out around when my parents started coming to church about how they were sorry about everything that's happened and how they're separating from the Boston church, something like that. After 15 years of growing up in the church, two of them in LA, and now the one in Boise, Idaho, I can positively say that any signs of a cult have disappeared. We do believe that we receive our salvation through baptism and having the faith involved, like how it says in the Bible. And we are encouraged to share our faith with everyone... But it's never been forced on my family to evangelise, we've never been forced to do anything of the sort. The ICOC is a safe haven for me, I know I can count on the majority of the people involved throughout the world. I've been taught since I was young to do my own thinking and researching before I came to the conclusion that I wanted to follow Jesus, and I was given the option to choose Jesus. I wasn't pressured into it, it was my choice, based off of seeing all the good of the kingdom through my church and other churches separate from the ICOC, and seeing how amazing God is.
The Henry kriete letter was opening up the icoc dirty laundry, but it wasnt the first letter. But it was the first letter put in the internet for the whole world to see. They count sweep it under the rug and name it "spiritual pornography".
Don't let anybody tell you different Darby. Most of the so-called, "Christians," do not have the Holy Spirit. They are of the world. So, naturally, you will not be accepted by false Christians, just as Jesus wasn't accepted by those evil religious leaders of the society.
Hey Darby, I know this a few years too late. I believe we went to the same church of THE ICOC sector. The holy spirit moved me to leave the church. The ICOC in Glendale called lifeway, I left it. It was lukewarm and did not teach spiritual gifts. Never once taught about the holy spirit until 2020 even then it was a phase. I was holy spirit lead out of the church. I have no regrets. That church was spiritually dead and have no fear to say that. I hope God is leading you by the holy spirit. I know this church doesn't do deliverance, healing or prophesying. Jesus ministry was doing deliverance from demons, healing and miracles. The ICOC doesn't believe in it or practice this part of Jesus ministry because they don't have the HOLY SPIRIT.
Thank you for your reply. We were part of this cult for about 4 years. When we started pointing out scripture, they not only kicked us out (my husband. I however could stay), but when my husband started reaching out to a young man where he worked that was a part of that cult we were both "dis fellowshipped". The best way you can reach out to these people is straight scripture. And lots of prayers.
RobinAnne, I was also around during Crossroads and Boston. I was never brainwashed. They were very kind and always gave me freedom to believe or reject what I was taught. They were not perfect of course. But even now, still very kind and we discuss our beliefs openly amongst eachother as equals, as I've always done. I am sorry you had a bad experience, but it is wrong to generalize that to the whole internatiinal group. You don't know everyone. You don't know me.
The trickle-down discipling system started later than your experience more during the nineties. I joined in 1988. I later was diagnosed with Bipolar disorder and I was treated with a lot of insensitivity regarding my illness. I developed a huge quilt complex and had to leave to save my sanity.
Jesus told the blind man to wash in the pool of Solomon and wasn't healed until he did a "work" of faith just like Joshua when the walls of Jericho fell.
I am not a member of the International Church of Christ. Before telling people that they are a cult, how about some solid doctrine? You bring up the issue but provide no substance. "You say a lot, but nothing at all."
where does it say in the scriptures (besides the old testament) that anything in it is doctrine? Who told anyone to put a book together and call it doctrine? do you know the history of the bible and who commissioned to put it together? where is Christmas in the bible if it is doctrine? People claim the bible is doctrine the way it is but I encourage you to look at the blatant falsehood in just the NIV bible, and look at how many scriptures are removed and changed completely in that book. compared to more consistently original texts. dont get me wrong, im not coming at you, but if you could answer these questions.
The modern day "Church of Christ" movement was began back in the early 1800s by Thomas & Alexander Campbell, Barton W. Stone & Walter Scott. See our video at RISE OF THE CULTS: WHERE DID ALL THESE STRANGE AMERICAN RELIGIOUS SECTS COME FROM?. Walter Scott "arranges" the "ancient gospel" & makes "experiments" with it; baptizes William Amend on November 18, 1827 & claims to have "restored the gospel" (see "Life of Elder Walter Scott" by Baxter, Chapter VI; "Memoirs of Alexander Campbell, Vol. 2, pp. 208-220) thus the name "The Restoration Movement." Water baptism becomes the savior & gospel of this group. However, did Christianity really need these four men to "restore the ancient gospel" in 1827? Was there no Christianity before 1827? Is water baptism then essential & necessary in order to be saved from hell & go to heaven instead? Why Water Baptism Is Not Essential to Salvation By Steve Morrison www.BibleQuery.org Points We Should Agree On Salvation was purchased neither by water nor by faith. Our salvation is by grace through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. The issue is whether we choose to receive that salvation through a) faith (most Bible-believing Christians, including some Church of Christ) b) Faith plus one work: baptism (some Church of Christ) c) Faith plus works in general (Catholic, Orthodox, some Church of Christ) d) Being a nice guy (Jesus’ blood was unnecessary) (many liberal Protestants and Catholics) Why This is Important A person can believe the wrong one of the first two and still be saved. But to me this is still important and unscriptural: 1. Says God sometimes breaks His promise 2. Salvation: God plus our response plus a 3rd party 3. Is there a corner in Hell for some obedient believers? On the other hand, many Church of Christ people say that if a person was martyred for their faith, and even if they were first baptized by immersion, if it was not specifically for remission of sins, there was no point for them to die for their faith, because they are in Hell. What if a Church of Christ person believed, but was killed in a car wreck on the way to being baptized? Thesis Nowhere does the Bible say the words "Cannot be saved without water baptism" Granted that some Bible truths are implied, not directly stated. But allegedly implied truths that contradict Biblically stated truths are untruths. Outline: Five Points Through Faith (Jn 3:16,18,36; Jn 5:24; 6:29,35,40 Rom 10:9-13, 1 Cor 1:14,17a etc.) Response of a Believer (Mk 16:16; Jn 3:3-6; Acts 2:38; 22:16, 1 Pet 3:20-21 etc.) Understanding Salvation (Eph 2:8-10) Thief on the Cross (Luke 23:40-43) Holy Spirit & Cornelius (Acts 10:43-48) Through Faith We Are Saved Some verses teach belief/faith for salvation, no mention of baptism. Others explicitly give the Promise of All who believe / have faith … are saved (John 3:16,18, etc.) We should all believe God’s promises. But what is genuine belief / saving faith? Genuine Belief / Saving Faith Saving Faith is not belief about but believing on Even the devils believe - and shudder (Jms 2:19) "Cheap grace", mere belief about facts, but not leading to a transformed life, is dead (Jms 2:20-24) True belief means trusting our lives to God OT: Ps 4:5; 9:10; 13:5; 20:7; 22:4,9; 25:2; Pr 3:5; Isa 8:17 NT: Rom 4:5; 9:33; 10:11; 1 Pet 2:6 Heb 2:13 (quotes 2 Sam 22:3) Blondin & tightrope over Niagara Falls illustration Old Testament believers, with the knowledge they had, were saved trusting forward to the same Savior we have, while we with the knowledge we have trust backwards at the finished work of Christ. When Blondin was about to walk over Niagara Falls on a tightrope pushing a wheelbarrow, a man told him that he believed that he could do it. Blondin asked if he really believed. When the man said yes, Blondin told him to get in the wheelbarrow. Genuine faith is not standing on the side saying "I believe", but saving faith in Christ is being willing to get in the wheelbarrow. Genuine Belief in Jesus as Lord Genuine belief in Jesus as Lord implies a repentance, calling on God, and commitment to obedience, including I might add, practicing the Lord’s supper and baptism. But let’s say a person was unable to fulfill baptism or another act of obedience, God understands out intentions. Role of Works in Salvation Both Ephesians 2:8-9 and James 2 show that works have an important role in our salvation: they are an output, not an input. Works are like a beating heart. You can make a dead person’s heart beat with electrodes, but that does not mean they are alive. But if you say a person is alive but their heart is not beating, then I have my doubts. Baptism is a work of a saved believer, not a lost person. But if someone says works have a role in us getting saved, then they deny Ephesians 2:8. Twice as many verses emphasize belief without baptism Verses showing water baptism Jn 3:16,18,36 (whosoever) Jn 1:11-12 (received him) Mk 16:16 (believe and is baptized) Jn 5:24 Jn 2:11b, 23b (belief only) Jn 3:4-6 (born of water & spirit) Acts 10:43-48 Jn 6:29,35,40,47 Acts 2:37-38 (for remission of sins) Rom 4:1-6; 5:1 Jn 7:38,39; Acts 22:16 (wash away thy sins) Rom 9:33 (belief only) Jn 8:30-32 Rom 6:3-5 (bapt.…into His death) Rom 10:9-13 Jn 11:25-26 (believes) 1 Cor 6:11 (washed... by the spirit) Joel 2:32a+Acts 2:21+Rom 10:13 Jn 12:46 (believe) Gal 3:26-27 (baptized…clothed) 1 Cor 1:14,17 Jn 16:9 (not believe) Eph 5:26,Tt 3:5 (washing) Eph 2:8-10 Jn 17:20 (believe only) Col 2:11-13; Heb 10:22 Gal 3:22b (belief only) Rom 10:9-10 (if a man…) 1 Pet 3:20b-21 Heb 4:2 (faith only) 1 Jn 5:1,10-13 1 Cor 1:12-13 (Paul and divisions) Other verses mentioning belief but not baptism: Jn 4:39a,41; 9:35; 10:42; 11:25,45,48; 12:11, 31,42,44; 14:1,12; 20:31 Acts 14:23; 20:21; Rom 15:13; Php 1:29; Tt 3:8 Other verses mentioning baptism: Mt 28:19; Acts 1:22; 2:41; 8:13,16, 37-39; 1 Cor 10:2 John 3:16,18 Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (KJV) Note it is not that this verse simply mentions belief without baptism. It says that whosoever believes is saved, without baptism. John 3:18 Jn 3:18 He that believeth in Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (KJV) When you believed in Christ, were you condemned or not condemned at that exact in time? John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." (KJV) John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (KJV) Acts 10:43 (KJV) "To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name, whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins." This was said to Cornelius prior to baptism. Rom 10:9-13 (also Joel 2:32a; Acts 2:21) (KJV) "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. (13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." 1 Cor 1:14; 17a (KJV) 1 Cor 1:14 "I [Paul] thank God that I baptized none of you but Cris’pus and Ga’i-us" 1 Cor 1:17a "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:" Jn 6:28-29,35,40 (KJV) Jn 6:28-29 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do that we might work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." Jn 6:35 "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." Jn 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." Twice as many verses emphasize belief without baptism Verses showing water baptism Jn 3:16,18,36 (whosoever) Jn 1:11-12 (received him) Mk 16:16 (believe and is baptized) Jn 5:24 Jn 2:11b, 23b (belief only) Jn 3:4-6 (born of water & spirit) Acts 10:43-48 Jn 6:29,35,40,47 Acts 2:37-38 (for remission of sins) Rom 4:1-6; 5:1 Jn 7:38,39; Acts 22:16 (wash away thy sins) Rom 9:33 (belief only) Jn 8:30-32 Rom 6:3-5 (bapt.…into His death) Rom 10:9-13 Jn 11:25-26 (believes) 1 Cor 6:11 (washed... by the spirit) Joel 2:32a+Acts 2:21+Rom 10:13 Jn 12:46 (believe) Gal 3:26-27 (baptized…clothed) 1 Cor 1:14,17 Jn 16:9 (not believe) Eph 5:26,Tt 3:5 (washing) Eph 2:8-10 Jn 17:20 (believe only) Col 2:11-13; Heb 10:22 Gal 3:22b (belief only) Rom 10:9-10 (if a man…) 1 Pet 3:20b-21 Heb 4:2 (faith only) 1 Jn 5:1,10-13 1 Cor 1:12-13 (Paul and divisions) Other verses mentioning belief but not baptism: Jn 4:39a,41; 9:35; 10:42; 11:25,45,48; 12:11, 31,42,44; 14:1,12; 20:31 Acts 14:23; 20:21; Rom 15:13; Php 1:29; Tt 3:8 Other verses mentioning baptism: Mt 28:19; Acts 1:22; 2:41; 8:13,16, 37-39; 1 Cor 10:2 Summary of the First Section While some verses simply mention belief without baptism, many other verses say that all who believe, regardless of baptism will be saved. We will call these the "whosoever" verses. Saving faith is a living faith, that is willing to repent, confess God, and obey. Of course getting baptized with water is part of obeying. But if a person dies before they are able to be baptized, God looks at our heart. Response of a Believer Water baptism verses Summary of Response Mk 16:16 yet Jn 3:36 Faith leads to baptism, only unbelief condemned Jn 3:4-6 yet Jn 3:16,18 Spoken to Nicodemus before the resurrection Acts 2:37-38 yet 10:43 Eis can mean result of or in, as in Acts 10:43 Acts 22:16 yet 22:13 Never said "Brother" Saul was not saved first Rom 6:3-5 yet 10:9-11 No mention of the pious unbaptized like the thief 1 Cor 6:11 yet Rom 8:11; Eph 1:13-14a Washed by the Spirit here, not water. If the Spirit is in a NT believer, Spirit’s seal guarantees. Gal 3:26-27 yet 2 Cor 5:4-5 A soldier’s uniform is an emblem of his identity. All with the Spirit guaranteed future clothing. Eph 5:26,Tt 3:5 Baptism of the Holy Spirit as in Acts 1:5 + 2:4 Col 2:11-13 yet Rom 2:29; Acts 15:1-21 Symbol of buried with Christ. Bible never said cannot be saved without water baptism Heb 10:22 yet 1 Pet 3:21 The washed body is a visible emblem, but 1 Pet 3:21a says does not save. 1 Pet 3:20b-21 yet 2:6b Noah and Abraham obedient saints beforehand. 1 Cor 1:12-13 yet 1:14-17 Baptism not vital since Paul NOT sent to baptize. Others: Mt 28:19; Acts 1:22; 2:41; 8:13,16, 37-39 - not say for salvation Response of a Believer Belief in the Lord Jesus implies a pledge of obedience. But this does NOT imply God sends an obedient believer, who in unable to do something, to Hell! While no other way except Christ (Jn 14:6b, Acts 4:12) the Bible never says condemned without baptism. While these show baptism is an important response of believers, no verse reneges on God’s promise to all who believe! Mk 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Yet John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (NKJV) Mark 16:16 does not specifically say all who believe but are unbaptized go to Hell. It if did, it would contradict John 3:36 and the other whosoever verses. Here is a "Change for a dollar and a water bottle illustration". If my daughter in the kitchen asks me for change for a dollar, and I tell her, give me a dollar and a water bottle and I will give you change. If my daughter gives me both I give her the change. If my daughter does not give me a dollar, then no change. But what if my daughter gives me a dollar but not a water bottle. Then it depends. If she says, I looked but I was unable to find a water bottle, then I will still give her change. But if she says something disrespectful, and refuses to give me a water bottle that she can get, then no change. A Church of Christ counter example was given as: "if you eat and digest your food you will live, if you do not eat, you will die." Digesting your food is implied. However, applying to Mark 16:16 this example of an involuntary bodily action to a command of God we are to voluntarily obey contradicts the Word of God, that promises salvation to all who truly believe in the following places: John 3:16,18,36; John 5:24; 6:47; 11:25-26; Acts 10:43-48; Romans 9:33; Joel 2:32a + Acts 2:21 + Romans 10:9-10; 10:13; 1 John 5:1,10-13 John 3:4-6 "‘Nic-o-de’mus saith unto Him, ‘How can a man be born when is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?’ (5) Jesus answered, ‘Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (KJV) Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (KJV) Jn 3:18a "He that believeth on him is not condemned" (KJV) One reason John 3:4-6 does not mean all who are not baptized go to Hell is that it would contradict John 3:16; 18a and the other whosoever verses. A second reason is that Jesus said John 3:4-6 before the resurrection. Jn 3:46 said before the resurrection a) If baptism essential before resurrection: Thief on the cross problem in Lk 23:43 b) If baptism not-essential, then since Jesus told Nicodemus prior to His resurrection, John 3:5 cannot teach no unbaptized person can be saved. But if b), note that believers were to be baptized in Jn 4:2 Water baptism: Not practiced in the OT, a command in the New, but never was it simply a suggestion! Acts 2:37-38 yet Acts 10:43 Acts 2:37-38 "When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, ‘Brothers, what shall we do?’ (38) Peter replied, ‘[ya’ll] Repent and [he/she] be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for [eis] the forgiveness / remission [aphesin] of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (NIV/NKJV) Yet Acts 10:43 "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission / forgiveness of sins." (NKJV/NIV) Yet Acts 2:21 (Joel 2:32a; Rom 10:13) "And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved" (NKJV) So right before Acts 2:36, Peter told us the criteria for receiving salvation: Acts 2:21. A second reason Acts 2:37-38 does not teach all who are not baptized go to Hell is that it would contradict the other whosoever verses. Forgiveness/Remission [Aphesin] are the Same word in Greek The word forgiveness/remission is the same Greek: aphesin (Strong’s 859) The same Greek word is used as: Remission (KJV/NKJV) Mt 26:28; Mk 1:4; Lk 1:77; 3:3; 24:47; Heb 9:22; 10:18 Forgiveness (KJV/NKJV), Mk 3:29; Acts 5:31; 13:38; 26:18; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14 NIV has forgiveness/forgiven in all these verses Many Meanings of Eis (Strong’s 1519) Eis mean in order to cause (looking forward) Lk 5:14 Jesus told the cleansed leper to show himself to the priests as Moses commanded eis a testimony to them. Eis means "because of" (looking backward) Mt 3:11 "John baptized eis repentance. If eis could only mean to cause remission of sins in Acts 2:38, then eis would have to baptize to cause repentance in Mt 3:11 Mt 12:41 [Ninevites] "repented eis the preaching of Jonah" Eis means "to" Jn 4:5 "He [Jesus] comes eis a city of Samaria" Jn 11:31 "She goes eis the tomb" Isa 13:14 (Septuagint) "a man shall turn back to his own people" This means "[return] to", but it is looking backward, not forward. They did not just become his people, they were already his people. Eis means "about" or "in reference to" Acts 2:25 David speaks eis him Cause and Effect and Eis If eis could only mean "caused" The Ninevites "caused" the preaching of Jonah? Mt 12:31 Mary goes to "cause" the tomb"? Jn 11:31 Through one man sin "caused" the world"? Rom 5:12) John the Baptist had a baptism for repentance to cause forgiveness of sins too. (Then what about the thief on the cross?) (Lk 3:3) You cannot base a doctrine on a grammatical ambiguity! Looking Backward with eis Church of Christ people claim eis never looks backward. However, besides Mt 3:11 and 12:41; it looks backward (as well as forward) in the Old Testament Septuagint. It looks backward in Mal 2:2 Did not One God (eis) create you? Mal 2:11 [Judah] has gone (eis) after other gods. Acts 22:16 yet Acts 22:13a Acts 22:16 [Ananias told Paul] "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name." (NIV) Acts 22:13a "He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’…" (NIV) Saul/Paul was already a fellow believer in Acts 22:13. 1) This does not say baptism saved, and 2) if it was the water that washed sins away that would be against 1 Peter 3:21. One reason Acts 22:16 does not refer to unbaptized believers going to Hell is that it would contradict the whosoever verses. More on Brother Now brethren meant fellow Jews in Rom 9:3; Acts 3:17; 13:26; 22:1,2; 23:1,5. However: We have no proof that Ananias was Jewish Ananias and Paul had a bond that was closer than being Jewish: even prior to Paul’s baptism, both were genuine believers. All genuine believers are our brothers. Baptism is only something a brother and sister believer does. The key issue here, is, can a genuine "brother", like the thief on the cross, or Cornelius before he was baptized, be in Hell if He dies before he does the "work" of water baptism? Alexander Campbell Christian Messenger, 1831 p.19,21 "My opinion is that immersion is the only baptism. But shall I therefore make my opinion a term of Christian fellowship? If in this case I thus act, where shall I cease from making my opinions terms of fellowship? I confess I see no end. . . . Let us still acknowledge all to be brethren, who believe in the Lord Jesus, and humbly and honestly obey him, as far as they know his will, and their duty." Rom 6:3-5 yet Rom 10:9-13 Rom 6:3-5 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" (KJV) While Rom 6 refers to water baptism, not just Spirit baptism, this never says cannot be saved if not baptized. Rather, it gives the meaning of baptism (our identification with Christ’s death and resurrection. Yet Rom 10:9-13 Rom 10:9-13 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (10) For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (11) For Scripture says, ‘Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame. (12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. (13) For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (NKJV) 1 Cor 6:11 yet Rom 8:11; Eph 1:13-14a 1 Cor 6:11 "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of God." (NIV) Washed by the Spirit here, not water. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is in Mt 3:11b; Mk 1:8; Lk 3:16b; Acts 1:5+2:4; 8:16-17; 19:2-7; 1 Cor 12:13 Yet Rom 8:11; Eph 1:13-14a Rom 8:11 "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (NKJV) Eph 1:13-14a "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, (14) who is the guarantee of our inheritance…" (NKJV) Gal 3:26-27 yet 2 Cor 5:4-5 Gal 3:26-27 "For you are all sons of God though faith in Christ Jesus, (27) For all of you who were baptized in Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." (uNASB) The Greek word enduo "clothed/put on" (Strong’s 1746) "in the sense of sinking into a garment); to invest with clothing (lit. or fit.): array, cloths (with), endue, have (put) on." As a soldier has a uniform, being clothed with Christ is an external emblem or an inward change and new identity. Yet 2 Cor 5:4-5 Yet 2 Cor 5:4-5 "For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who have prepared for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." (NKJV) Even we are not fully clothed while in this life, but in the New Testament those who have the Spirit are guaranteed they will be fully clothed. Eph 5:26 & Titus 3:5 yet Acts 1:5+2:4 Eph 5:26 "To make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word," (NIV) Titus 3:5 "he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior" (NIV) This is baptism (washing) of the Holy Spirit, which is mentioned in Acts 1:5 and fulfilled in Acts 2:4 Alexander Campbell Design by Baptism p.262 (1st part) "In this sense we are to understand what is said by Paul, that Christ sanctifieth and cleanseth the church ‘with washing of water by the word.’ Eph 5:26, and in another place, that ‘according to His mercy he saved us, but the washing of regeneration, and of renewing of the Holy Ghost’ Titus 3:5, and by Peter that ‘baptism doeth save us’ 1 Pet. 3:21, For it is not the intention of Paul to signify that our ablution and salvation are completed by water, or that water contains in itself the virtue to purify, regenerate, and renew; nor did Peter mean that it was the cause of salvation, but only the knowledge and assurance of it is received in this sacrament: what is sufficiently evident from the words they have used." Alexander Campbell Design by Baptism p.262 (2nd part) "For Paul connects together the ‘word of life’ and ‘the baptism of water;’ as if he had said, our ablution and sanctification are announced to us by the Gospel, and by baptism this message is confirmed. And Peter after having said the baptism doth save us, immediately adds, that it is ‘not the putting away the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God’ which proceeds from faith. But on the contrary, baptism promises us no other purification than by the sprinkling of the blood of Christ; which is emblematically represented by water, on account of its resemblance to washing and cleansing." Col 2:11-13 yet Rom 2:29; Acts 15:1-21 Col 2:11-13 "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses." (KJV) Yet Rom 2:29 Rom 2:25-28 said that circumcision had value if you obeyed the law, but not for lawbreakers. Even those who kept the law but were uncircumised will be regarded as circumcised. Rom 2:29 "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (KJV) Yet Acts 15:1-12 Some men [falsely] taught that unless you are circumcised you cannot be saved. The apostles COULD have said, "Not circumcision anymore but baptism." But instead Peter said, "No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." So they told Gentile believers to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, sexual immorality, blood, but "missed their chance" to say that baptism is required. Heb 10:22 yet 1 Pet 3:21 Heb 10:22 "let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water." (NIV) Yet 1 Pet 3:21a (NIV) "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also - not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God…" 1 Pet 3:21a (KJV) "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.)" The body washed with pure water is a visible emblem of our changed hearts. 1 Peter 3:21 says that it is not the water that saves us but the pledge of a good conscience towards God. 1 Pet 3:20b-21 yet 1 Pet 2:6b Pet 3:20b-21 "days of Noah, while the ark was preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (KJV) Note: KJV’s "by water" is incorrect; the Greek is "through water (di udatos)" per (NKJV, NIV, uNASB, Green’s literal translation, NRSV) Yet 1 Pet 2:6b "he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame." (NKJV) Response to 1 Pet 3:20b-21 Both Noah and Abraham were obedient servants of God prior to the flood and testing with Isaac. 1 Peter 3:21 says it is NOT the water, but the pledge of a good conscience before God. It does not refer to people who made a pledge but were not able to get baptized. The Bible also uses word save in the fourth tense (of working out our salvation. So baptism only saves in the on-going sense that we can turn others from sin (James 5:20) we can save ourselves (Acts 2:40), we can save others (1 Cor 7:16, 9:22; 1 Tim 4:16) Alexander Campbell Millennial Harbinger, 1837 p.411-412 (1st part) "But who is a Christian? I answer, every one that believes in his heart that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, the Son of God; repents of his sins, and obeys him in all things according to his measure of knowledge of his will. . . . I cannot make any one duty the standard of Christian state or character, not even immersion into the name of Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and [cannot] in my heart regard all that have been sprinkled in infancy without their own knowledge and consent, as aliens from Christ and the well-grounded hope of heaven." Alexander Campbell Millennial Harbinger, 1837 p.411-412 (2nd part) "Should I find a Pedobaptist [one baptized as an infant] more intelligent in the Christian Scriptures, more spiritually-minded and more devoted to the Lord than a Baptist, or one immersed on a profession of the ancient faith, I could not hesitate a moment in giving the preference of my heart to him that loveth most. Did I act otherwise, I would be a pure sectarian, a Pharisee among Christians." It if False to Claim Church of Christ Always Taught This This, it is wrong for Church of Christ literature to claim Churches of Christ always believed a person not immersed for sins is going to Hell. One of the founders, Alexander Campbell, said a pedobaptist could be saved Alexander Campbell was never immersed for remission of sins Nobody in the church prior to this time said that belief without baptism would send someone to Hell However, Ambrose, Augustine, and others did teach that baptized babies go to Heaven, and unbaptized babies go to Hell. Understanding Salvation in Eph 2:8-10 Eph 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (9) not of works, lest anyone should boast. (10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (NKJV) Counter-argument1: Naaman the Syrian In 2 Ki 5:10-15, Naaman was not cleansed of leprosy until he washed in the Jordan. a) This act of faith was for cleansing from leprosy, not salvation. b) It does not matter what river, or baptism water you use. But here it had to specifically be the Jordan River to make a point to Naaman. c) There was no water baptism in the Old Testament. d) Finally, if someone tried to make it relate to baptism, then Naaman did not know for sure there was only one God except the God of Israel until AFTER he washed in the Jordan in 2 Kings 5:15. Counter-argument 2: Walls of Jericho God by His grace gave Jericho to the Israelites without them working for it (Josh 6:2) But they still had to march around the city for seven days, 13 times, before it fell. Counter-argument 2 Answer Their marching did not cause the walls to fall; God supernaturally did. Obediently doing works DOES give us blessings, but this was not for their salvation, but to their conquering strongholds in their life as believers. It would be a false caricature of our position to say that we are against works, or that works have nothing to do with a saved person’s life. Works are an output of salvation, not an input. Thief on the Cross in Luke 23:40-43 Baptism was a much "for" remission of sins before Jesus’ resurrection as after. (Mk 1:4; Lk 1:77; Lk 3:3b same wording as Acts 2:38) Rejecting John’s baptism was rejecting God’s will for them (Lk 7:30) The disciples baptized too (Jn 3:26; 4:2) Jesus had high regard for at least one near-death conversion! No opportunity for water baptism, but did not reject. One answer: God is understanding Martyrs Potamiaena and the soldier Basilides About 202 A.D., as the Christian lady Potamiaena was being lead to her martyr’s death in the arena, the soldier Basilides kindly kept the rabble from bothering her. She said she would tell God of his kindness, and he would receive a reward. Three days after her death, he had a dream about her. Afterwards, when he was asked to swear something, he said he could not, as he was a Christian. First they thought he was joking, then they put him in prison; he was martyred too. Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History (323-326 A.D.) book 6 ch.5 p.253) So would someone like that go to Hell, who truly trusted in Christ and was martyred for Him? More on Basilides In fairness to the other side, I must mention something else too. Brothers of the church met with Basilides in prison, and after talking with him gave him "the seal of the Lord". It is unclear that this is baptism, but it probably was. However, the pagan jailers would not have let a prisoner leave the prison to get baptized. So how could he get baptized? Early Church: Immersion when Practical Didache (c.125 A.D.) ch.7 p.379 "baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if thou have not living water, baptize into other water; and if thou canst not in cold, in warm. But if thou have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." Early Church Errors But the early church made mistakes too. Around 210 A.D. the early Church got the idea that before baptism you needed to go through a long, two year class for catechumens. What if someone came to Christ and was martyred before completing their lengthy class? So according to this Church of Christ doctrine, all the Christian martyrs, including Basilides, who were killed before getting immersed in water, will be in Hell, I supposed studying Greek forever. Maybe they will have the thief on the cross as their instructor though. Holy Spirit and Cornelius in Acts 10:43-48 They had the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism So do we (John 14:16-17,23) In the New Testament, all who have the Holy Spirit are in Christ. (1 John 4:13; Rom 8:9-11,14,16a) Rom 8:14 "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (uNASB) Rom 8:16-17a "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, (17) and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ." (uNASB) Cornelius according to 1 John 4:13 1 Jn 4:13 "By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit." (KJV, NKJV, uNASB) Cornelius According to Rom 8:9-11 Rom 8:9-11 "But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you, Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. (10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. (11) But if the Spirit of him that raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by [through] His Spirit that dwelleth in you." (KJV) (Greek dia is "through" as NKJV, NIV, uNASB, Green’s) Summary Through Faith (Jn 3:16,18,36, Jn 5:24; 6:29,35,40 Rom 10:9-13; 1 Cor 1:14,17a etc.) Response of a Believer (Mk 16:16; Jn 3:3-6; Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Pet 3:20-21 etc.) Understanding Salvation (Eph 2:8-10) Thief on the Cross (Luke 23:40-43) Holy Spirit & Cornelius (Acts 10:43-48) Conclusion Water baptism is what a believer should do. Even all Church of Christ people will agree, but they try to differentiate between a genuine believer and a saved person. Water baptism by immersion is only as essential for salvation as it was for the thief on the cross, Cornelius, Basilides and other early martyrs Quote on Potamiaena and the soldier Basilides Basilides may be counted the seventh of these. He led to martyrdom the celebrate Potamiaena, whose is still famous among the people of the country for the many things which she endured for the preservation of her chastity and virginity. For she was blooming in the perfection of her mind and her physical graces. Having suffered much for the faith of Christ, finally after tortures dreadful and terrible to speak of, she with her mother, Marcella, was put to death by fire. They say that the judge, Aquilla by name, having inflicted severe tortures upon her entire body, at last threatened to hand her over to the gladiators for bodily abuse. After a little consideration, being asked for her decision, she made a reply which was regarded as impious. Thereupon she received sentence immediately, and Basilides, one of the officers of the army, led her to death. But as the people attempted to annoy and insult her with abusive words, he drove back her insulters, showing her much pity and kindness. And perceiving the man’s sympathy for her, she exhorted him to be of good courage, for she would supplicate her Lord for him after her departure, and he would soon receive a reward for the kindness he had shown her. Having said this, she nobly sustained the issue, burning pitch being poured little by little, over various parts of her body, from the sole of her feet to the crown of her head. Such was the conflict endured by this famous maiden. Not long after this Basilides, being asked by his fellow-soldiers to swear for a certain reason, declared that it was not lawful for him to swear at all, for he was a Christian, and he confessed this openly. At first they thought that he was jesting, but when he continued to affirm it, he was led to the judge, and, acknowledging his conviction before him he was imprisoned. But the brethren in God coming to him and inquiring the reason of this sudden and remarkable resolution, he is reported to have said the Potamiaena, for three days after her martyrdom, stood beside him by night and placed a crown on his head, and said that she had besought the Lord for him and had obtained what she asked, and that soon she would take him with her. Thereupon the brethren gave him the seal(4) of the Lord; and on the next day, after giving glorious testimony for the Lord, he was beheaded." Footnote 4 says, "The word aphragis, ‘seal,’ was very commonly used by the Fathers to signify baptism (see Suicer’s Thesaurus)." The Early Church on Cornelius Anonymous Treatise on Re-baptism (254-257 A.D.) ch.5 p.669-670 On speaking of Cornelius said, "And there will be no doubt that men may be baptized with the Holy Ghost without water, - as thou observest that these were baptized before they were baptized with water; that the announcements of both John and of our Lord Himself were satisfied, - forasmuch as they received the grace of the promise both without the imposition of the apostle’s hands and without the [baptismal] laver, which they attained afterwards. And their hearts being purified, God bestowed upon them at the same time, in virtue of their faith, remission of sins; so that the subsequent baptism conferred upon them this benefit alone, that they received also the invocation of the name of Jesus Christ, that nothing might appear to be wanting to the integrity of their service and faith." Cyprian (246-258 A.D.) Letter 71 p.378 strongly emphasized baptism (even of infants), and one can see the doctrine of baptismal regeneration in his writings. Yet in discussing Cornelius he even said, "For we find also, in the Acts of the Apostles, that this is maintained by the apostles, and kept in the truth of the saving faith, so that when, in the house of Cornelius the centurion, the Holy Ghost had descended upon the Gentiles who were there, fervent in the warmth of their faith, and believing in the Lord with the whole heart; and when, filled with the Spirit, they blessed God in divers tongues, still none the less the blessed Apostle Peter, mindful of the divine precept and the Gospel, commanded that those same men should be baptized who had already been filled with the Holy Spirit, that nothing might seem to be neglected to the observance by the apostolic instruction in all things of the law of the divine precept and Gospel." We cannot find a single person in history who held to both believer’s baptism plus all who are lost who are not immersed for remission of sins. In other words, according to the doctrine of many Churches of Christ, outside of the New Testament we cannot find in history a single person who had any possibility of going to heaven, until after the restoration movement started, and even Alexander Campbell was never baptized for remission of sins. Note that Acts 2:38 says "ya’ll (second person plural) repent and each of you (third person singular) be baptized. So forgiveness/remission of sins does not modify repent. Other Notes Two Classes of Verses 1. Mention of belief/faith for salvation, no mention of baptism 2. The Promise of All who believe/ have faith … are saved (John 3:16,18, etc.) Verses Showing Salvation Can Come Before or Without Water Baptism Thief on the cross (Luke 23:40-43). The thief was not permitted to get down, get baptized, and then get back up on the cross again. If God is understanding of the situation of the thief, then that proves water baptism is not essential for salvation. Even though the thief died before Christ’s resurrection, water baptism was still practiced by Jesus and his disciples (Jon 3:26; 4:2), and water baptism was for repentance for remission of sins by John the Baptist (Mk 1:4; Lk 1:77; 3:3b). Jesus was said to have baptized (John 3:26), though actually Jesus had His disciples do the baptizing (John 4:2) In Lk 3:3b John the Baptist was "preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (NKJV) and the words for remissions/forgiveness are the same in Acts 2:38 and Lk 3:3 in Greek as they are in English. (See also Mk 1:4; Lk 1:77) Cornelius (Acts 10:43-48) Note that they had the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45b) prior to water baptism. In New Testament times, Romans 8:9,11,14,16-17 says that those who have the spirit in them, their spirit is alive, are sons of God, (17b) "heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." Jn 3:16,18 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (18) He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he was not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (36) He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (NKJV) Jesus was said to have baptized (John 3:26), though actually Jesus had His disciples do the baptizing (John 4:2) In Lk 3:3b John the Baptist was "preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (NKJV) and the words for remissions/forgiveness are the same in Acts 2:38 and Lk 3:3 in Greek as they are in English. (See also Mk 1:4; Lk 1:77) Jn 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (NKJV) Rom 4:1-6 "What than shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he as something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 4) Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, (6) just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:" (NKJV) Acts 10:43 "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins." (NKJV) Rom 5:1 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, though whom we also have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (NKJV) Rom 10:9-13 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (10) For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (11) For Scripture says, ‘Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame. (12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. (13) For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (NKJV) Joel 2:32a and Acts 2:21 and Rom 10:13 "And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved" (NKJV) 1 Cor 1:17a "For Christ did not send me [Paul] to baptize, but to preach the gospel," (NKJV) Eph 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (NKJV) 1 Cor 10:2 (indirectly) "all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea." (NKJV) Yet Moses, Joshua, Caleb, and other godly Israelites followed God before the crossed the Red Sea. Gal 3:22b (indirectly) "that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." (NKJV) Heb 4:2 (indirectly) "For indeed the gospel was reached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it." They had to have faith for it to profit them. It does not say faith and baptism. Jn 1:11-12 (indirectly) "He [Jesus] cam into His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe His name;" Says have to believe to become children of God; does not specify whether other steps or not. Jn 2:11b, 23b (belief only) ""…and His disciples believed in Him. (23b) many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did." Jn 6:29,35,40 "Jesus answered and said to them [the crowds], ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." (35) And Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (40) "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (NKJV) Jn 7:38,39 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. (39) But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (NKJV) Jn 8:30-32 "As He spoke these words, many believed in Him. Then Jesus aid to those Jews who believed Him, ‘If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed, And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.’" (NKJV) Jn 11:25-26 ""Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me; though he may die, shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (NKJV) Jn 12:46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness." (NKJV) Jn 16:9 [The Holy Spirit will convict the world] "of sin, because they do not believe in Me;" No mention of conviction for not being baptized. Jn 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one,…" Php 1:29 "For it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (not mention of baptism) 1 Jn 5:1 "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him." (NKJV) 1 Jn 5:10-13 "He who believes in the Son of God has the witness of himself; and he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son." (11) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life; and this life is in His Son. (12) He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (13) These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." (NKJV) Other verses mentioning belief but not baptism: Jn 4:39a; 4:41; 9:35; 10:42; 11:45,48; 12:11,42,44; 14:1,12 Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (NIV) Yet: John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (NKJV) Q: Does Mark 16:16 prove that a person must be baptized in order to be saved? A: No, it does not specify. It says that a person who believes and is baptized will be saved, and a person who does not believe is condemned. It is silent about people who believe but are not baptized. Let me give you a simple illustration. If my daughter’s in the kitchen and she asks me for four quarters for a dollar, I could tell her to bring me a dollar, and also a water bottle. Now if she brings me a dollar and a water bottle I will give her change. If she does not bring me the dollar I do not give her change. But if she brings the dollar but no water bottle, I did not specify what I would do. If she refuses, perhaps making a disrespectful remark, I would not make change for her. On the other hand, if she tries to bring me a water bottle but cannot find one, should I still refuse her? - of course not. Matthew 7:7-8 says that "everyone who asks receives" Likewise Mark 16:16 does not specify about those who believe and are not baptized, and probably for similar reason. Is it because a person was not able to be baptized, or a person rejected obeying God. Scripture that says salvation comes at the point of faith in Jesus include Acts 16:31; Jn 1:12; 3:14-18; 3:36; 6:47; 30:31. Proverbs 30:6 and 1 Corinthians 4:6 are strict warnings not to add to God’s word. If you say that Mark 16:16 states what happens to those who believe and are not baptized, when that verse is silent on that, you are adding to God’s word. While some people, called ultra-dispensationalists, say we are not to be baptized today, that is wrong. Baptism, along with other works, are in fact involved in salvation; they are an output, not an input. Baptism and other works are the obedient response of a saved person, not the work of a lost person. John 3:4-6 "’How can a man be born when he is old?’ Nicodemus asked. ‘Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!’ Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." (NIV) Q: Does John 3:5 imply a person must be baptized in water to be saved? A: No, Jesus blood saves. Water would not save Nicodemus any more than it would save the thief on the cross. First five reasons why did does not teach that, and then what it does teach. Why it does not teach that: On the surface, this might sound like one of the strongest verses supporting that you must be baptized to be saved. However, four points completely eliminate that teaching from this verse. 1. Thief on the cross: If John 3:5 taught that no unbaptized person can be saved, then the thief on the cross could not be saved, contradicting Luke 23:43. 2. Said before the resurrection too: If someone notices that the thief on the cross was before the resurrection, this command was before the resurrection too. 3. Jesus’ disciples baptized before the crucifixion: Do not forget that believers WERE to be baptized before the resurrection; otherwise why were Jesus’ disciples baptizing in John 4:2? 4. Contradicts believe only passages: Saying water baptism were essential for salvation, whether before or after the resurrection, John 3:16 "whoever believes in him", Romans 10:9-10, and other verses that say our point of contact with salvation is our belief or faith. There is no work, of any category, involved, as Ephesians 2:8-10 teaches. 5. God is understanding: Even one Church of Christ pastor told me that God is understanding of believers who are not baptized but did not reject water baptism. He and I agree on this. But if God can be "understanding" then getting baptized is still an important command to be followed, but no longer "ties the hands of God Almighty" if a person dies before being baptized. In contrast to this, I heard of a Church of Christ boy who was killed in a car accident on his way to being baptized. Would you teach that he is in Hell now, despite his intent? What it does teach: Christians see at least two truths Jesus is teaching here. 1. Do-over: We were born as sinners, with a sinful nature and we need to be born again. "…born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit". A lost person reforming themselves into salvation does not work; we must be born again, and have the Holy Spirit living inside of us (Romans 8:10,11,15). 2. Baptism visibly joins us to the kingdom of God now: Genuine believers will go to heaven eventually, but we are a part of the kingdom of God now. Believing intellectual facts is not enough (James 2:19), saving faith includes trusting Jesus as our Lord. We pledge our life to God, our Master, and one of the acts of an obedient believer is to be baptized. Baptism is not just a bath, but an outward sign of an inward pledge. Acts 2:37-38 "When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, ‘Brothers, what shall we do?’ Peter replied, ‘[ya’ll] Repent and [he/she] be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ eis the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (NIV) [remission of sins in the NKJV, aphesin (Strong’s 859, from 863] Yet Acts 10:43: "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission/forgiveness of sins." (NKJV) (forgiveness in NIV) Q: Does Acts 2:37-38 prove a person must be baptized in water to be saved? A: No, you cannot base a major doctrine solely on 1. Contradicts Acts 10:43 2. A grammatical error: Repent is second person plural [ya’ll] and baptized is third person singular, so the forgiveness of sins here only modifies the second part: baptized, not the forgiveness of sins too. 3. An ambiguous use of a single word. The Greek word here, eis (Strong’s 1519), like the English word "for" can mean many things, and it can mean "because of [the past]" as well as "to cause [the future]" 4. Choosing the ambiguous use that contradicts scriptural meaning. In Mk 1:4; Lk 1:77; 3:3b John the Baptist was "preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (NKJV) and the words for remission / forgiveness are the same in Acts 2:38 and Lk 3:3 in Greek, as they are in English. Do you believe that baptism was essential for salvation prior to Jesus; ministry with John the Baptist? (Most Christians would say no.) Of course the thief on the cross was not allowed to get down and get baptized before Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise. As for details, here are some examples of different meanings of eis. Eis mean in order to cause Lk 5:14 Jesus told the cleansed leper to show himself to the priests as Moses commanded eis a testimony to them. Eis means "in [the]" Mt 10:41 "receives a prophet eis name of the prophet" … "receives a just one eis name of the just one" Eis means "because of" Mt 3:11 "John baptized eis repentance. If eis could only mean "to cause" in Acts 2:38, then eis would have to baptize to cause repentance in Mt 3:11 Mt 12:41 [Ninevites] "repented eis the preaching of Jonah" Eis means "into" Rom 5:12 "sin eis the world entered" Rom 6:3 "all who were baptized into Christ Jesus, eis the death of Him were baptized." Lk 14:23 "Go eis the ways and hedges" Acts 22:10 "Bring [Paul] eis the fortress Eis means "in" Acts 10:43 "through the name of Him [Jesus everyone believing eis Him. Mk 1:9 Jesus was baptized of John eis Jordan. Acts 19:3 Ephesians baptized eis John’s baptism Eis means "about" or "in reference to" Acts 2:25 David speaks eis him Eis means "towards" Rom 5:8 "of Himself love eis us God," Eis means "to" Jn 4:5 "He [Jesus] comes eis a city of Samaria" Jn 11:31 "She goes eis the tomb" Green’s literal translation says, "…baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to forgiveness of sins." Wuest’s Expanded Translation says "and let each one of you be baptized upon the ground of your confession of belief in the sum total of all that Jesus Christ is in His glorious Person, this baptismal testimony being in relation to the fact that your sins have been put away," The Greek word eis, is a less precise word that English. Thayer’s A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament 20th printing 1979 (Zondervan) spends almost six pages discussing the Greek word eis. On p.183 he writes, "[Preposition] governing the Accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, towards, for, among" It has a variety of uses, but Thayer classifies Rom 5:12 as Properly of Place. He says, "4. of the limit to which ; with acc. of place, as far as, even to : ... Lk 14:23 ; with [accusative plural] or pers. to, unto; Acts 23:15 ... Ro. v.12; xvi.10; 2 Co ix. 5 ... x.14." Just prior to this he writes "3. of motion (not into a place itself, but) in a vicinity of a place; where it may be rendered to, near, towards..." Examples include Mk 3:7, Jn 4:5;11:31,38;20:1,3. In Rom 5:8 (eis) means unto, towards or one [Thayer p.184]. In Rom 5:12 and 15 (eis) is equivalent to the Latin in and ad [Thayer p.186]. In conclusion, for verses 16 and 18, one can see why most major English translations (NKJV, NASB, NIV, and Wuest) render this as "resulting" or "bringing". This more precisely conveys the meaning than simply translating "to" as the KJV does. Acts 22:16 [Ananias told Paul] "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name." (NIV) Yet Acts 22:13a "He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive our sight!’…" (NIV) Q: Does Acts 22:16 prove a person must be baptized in water to be saved? A: No. Saul/Paul was already saved by then, for Ananias called him "brother Saul" in Acts 22:13. Baptism is an emblem of washing our sins away. But even if someone that this was literally washing their sins away, they would probably still agree with three things. 1) If it was the liquid water that literally took away the sins, then future sins would not be taken way unless a person was baptized again and again. 2) It is not the water that is special, but rather the water is an identification with the blood of Christ. 3) It does not say people can have sins washed away without baptism. God is not incapable of taking ways the sins of the thief on the cross, and early Christians who were martyred before they had the opportunity to be baptized. So it is not the drops of water that take away anything. Rather it is the pledge of a good conscience before God that connects us with Christ’s blood, and baptism is an acknowledgement, and emblem, of that. Rom 6:3-4 "Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized in to Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just a Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." (NIV) Q: Does Rom 6:3-4, prove a person must be baptized in water to be saved? A: No this verse uses a spiritual illustration from the normal experience of baptism that Christians normally have, but it does not mention the people who were not baptized or any power in the water. Rather it shows that our baptism visibly signified our decision to identify with Christ’s death, and likewise with His resurrection. Paul’s teaching here has similarities to Colossians 2:11-14. We have been "circumcised", not in the Old Testament way, but in the New Testament way. Colossians 2:12 says, "having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead." 1 Cor 6:11 "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of God." (NIV) Q: Does 1 Cor 6:11 show that believers must be immersed to be baptized? A: We are cleansed or washed in Christ. But the Greek word here, apeloussathe, (Strong’s 628) is not related to baptism. I do not know that Church of Christ people do not try to appeal to this verse very often, but occasionally they might grasp at it. Gal 3:26-27 "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, (27) for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." (NIV) Q: Does Gal 3:26-27 prove a person must be baptized in water to be saved? A: No, this verse does not mention salvation, but it shows some of the importance of baptism after salvation. Baptism is an outward, external sign; we agree that the water is not magic; its soaking into our skin does not do anything. Nevertheless baptism is an external clothing with Christ symbolic of both an external and internal change. External: We need to be externally clothed with Christ as a sign to the world and a visible sign of our joining God’s kingdom and a pledge of ourselves toward God. As a soldier puts on a uniform we put on baptism. The uniform does not make a soldier; it is what a soldier is commanded to put on. Water does not make a Christian, baptism is what a Christian is commanded to do. Symbol of internal change: Baptism is an outward symbol of an inward change: believers are baptized with the Holy Spirit; who now lives in us. (1 John 4:13; Rom 8:9-11) Eph 5:26 "To make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word," (NIV) Titus 3:5 "he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior" (NIV) Q: Do Eph 5:26 and Tt 3:5 prove that a person must be baptized in water to be saved? A: No, Titus 3:5 refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, On Ephesians 5:25, rather than answer myself, I will let Alexander Campbell, one of the founders of the Restoration Movement speak. He taught various things at various time, but here is what he wrote in Design by Baptism by Alexander Campbell p.262. "In this sense we are to understand what is said by Paul, that Christ sanctifieth and cleanseth the church ‘with washing of water by the word.’ Eph 5:26, and in another place, that ‘according to His mercy he saved us, but he washing of regeneration, and of renewing of the Holy Ghost’ Titus 3:5, and by Peter that ‘baptism doeth save us’ 1 Pet. 3:21, For it is not the intention of Paul to signify that our ablution and salvation are completed by water, or that water contains in itself the virtue to purify, regenerate, and renew; nor did Peter mean that it was the cause of salvation, but only the knowledge and assurance of it is received in this sacrament: what is sufficiently evident from the words they have used. For Paul connects together the ‘word of life’ and ‘the baptism of water;’ as if he had said, our ablution and sanctification are announced to us by the Gospel, and by baptism this message is confirmed. And Peter after having said the baptism doth save us, immediately adds, that it is ‘not the putting away the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God’ which proceeds from faith. But on the contrary, baptism promises us no other purification than by the sprinkling of the blood of Christ; which is emblematically represented by water, on account of its resemblance to washing and cleansing." Col 2:11-12 "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, (12) having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through you faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead." (NIV) Q: Does Col 2:11-12 show that believers must be immersed to be baptized? A: This only says that we are buried with Christ in baptism. Colossians 2:11-12 discusses circumcision in the Old Testament and baptism in the New Testament. No one in the Old Testament was declared righteous by circumcision, especially since only half of infants were circumcised. Heb 10:22 "let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water." (NIV) Q: Does Heb 10:22 show that believers must be immersed to be baptized? A: In Hebrews 10:22 "having been washed with water" does nothing to save us. In fact, the washing itself does NOT save us according to 1 Peter 3:21. Rather believers’ bodies are washed with water in baptism as an emblem of their pledge of accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior. As a side note, the Greek words here are having been sprinkled (errantismenoi, Strong’s 4472), having been washed is leloumemoi Strong’s 3068), neither of which, of course is baptism. 1 Pet 3:20b-21 "days of Noah wile the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also - not the removal of dirt from the body but he pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ," (NIV) Q: Does 1 Pet 3:20b-21 prove a person must be baptized in water to be saved? A: No. Baptism is the normal response of a follower of Christ, but it is neither essential to salvation nor prior to salvation for five reasons. 1. Both Noah and Abraham were obedient servants of God prior to the flood and testing with Isaac 2. 1 Peter 3:21 says it is NOT the water, but the pledge of a good conscience before God. 3. It does not refer to people who made a pledge but were not able to get baptized. 4. The water does not take the place of the cross. 5. Neither water nor faith are a way to heaven. There is no other way to Heaven except through Christ (Acts 4:12; John 14:6), 5. The Bible also uses word save in the fourth tense (of working out our salvation. So baptism only saves in the on-going sense that we can turn others from sin (James 5:20) we can save ourselves (Acts 2:40), we can save others (1 Cor 7:16, 9:22; 1 Tim 4:16) However, as 1 Peter 3:20b-21 shows, baptism is the normal way we show our acceptance and faith in what Christ did for us. A person is to show their pledge of a good conscience towards God by water baptism, but if they cannot, this verse does not say there is no other way to show acceptance. Around 202 A.D. the martyrs Potoiaemina and the soldier Basilides. Other Christian martyrs, and the 2-year catechetical school. Patrick’s baptismal candidates Q: In Mt 4:17; 10:17; Mk 1:15; Lk 8:10; Jn 3:5 are the kingdom of God and Kingdom of heaven identical, or is there a slight difference between the two? A: Many have seen them as identical; you will not be a part of one if you are not a part of the other. Matthew uses both terms, and Mark, Luke, and John use only the kingdom of God. Jesus uses both terms in adjacent verses in Matthew 19:23-24. Others see a slight difference; the kingdom of heaven is where all believers go when we die, and the kingdom of God is what we belong to now when we are saved. Regardless of the individual words, we can all agree that our salvation has both a "now" aspect on earth and a future aspect in heaven (1 Cor 13:12; Php 1:21-24) that will not be realized until we reach heaven. In John 3:5 some think water refers to amniotic fluid when a baby is born, but others think it refers to baptism. It cannot mean Jesus told Nicodemus that a person cannot be saved unless they are baptized, unless the thief on the cross was not saved! But it can mean that a person is not a visible part of God’s kingdom on earth until they are baptized. Similar to this, many churches do not want someone to take the Lord’s Supper until they are baptized. See the Wycliffe Bible Dictionary p.991 for more info. Nevertheless, as Jesus spoke foreshadowing his death and communion in John 6:51-56, Jesus spoke not only foreshadowing Christian baptism, but they were already very familiar with baptism for repentance, thanks to John. This view is advocated by: John Chrysostom (392-407 A.D.) Homilies of St. John Homily 25 Gregory Nanzianzus (330-391 A.D.) Oration on Holy Baptism ch.8 F.F. Bruce in Hard Sayings of the Bible p.495-496 Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Harper’s Bible Commentary. 3a. The water stands for baptismal regeneration. The early church fathers held this view. However, The Bible Knowledge Commentary : New Testament p.281 mentions that this interpretation contradicts being saved by faith alone, as Ephesians 2:8-9 and John 3:16 show. This view is advocated by Justin Martyr (wrote about 138-165 A.D.) First Apology chapter 61 Irenaeus (182-188 A.D.) in fragment 34 Tertullian (200-220 A.D.) in On Baptism ch. 12 Cyprian (wrote 248-258 A.D.) in Epistle 71. Gregory Nanzianzus (330-391 A.D.) Oration on Holy Baptism chapter 8. Basil of Cappadocia (357-379 A.D.) On the Spirit 15:35 John of Damascus Exposition of the Orthodox Faith chapter 9 Ambrose of Milan (340-397 A.D.) Of the Holy Spirit 3.10.63-64 Constitutions of the Holy Apostles (c.80-190 A.D.) 6.3.15 (This was a spurious work, which had an early date. Among other things, it also supports infant Baptism.) However, interpreting John 3:5 this way sounds close to making baptism (whether John’s baptism or Christian baptism) a requirement for salvation. Nevertheless, John’s baptism was looking for salvation, not something that brought salvation. In Acts 2:38, Peter said the people had to repent and baptized and they would receive the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 4:2 said some were not saved because they did not share the faith (or combine it with faith.) Things such as repentance, faith, and obedience, including obedience in water baptism are evidence of us receiving salvation, not that which saves us. This view is advocated by: The Applied New Testament Commentary p.368 Matthew Henry’s Commentary says that "it is probably that Christ had an eye to the ordinance of baptism." 4. Water stands for conversion. Converts to Judaism went through a baptism ceremony. Jesus was implying that one had to convert to experience the new birth. Thus Jesus was saying "by conversion and by the spirit". This view does not preclude believing other views, too. However, while Jewish converts were washed, a more common scene was Jews washing for ritual purification. This viewpoint is perhaps not so much false, as too narrow a view of 3. This view is advocated by: The IVP Bible Commentary : New Testament (1993) p.270. 5. Water stands for the baptizing ministry of John the Baptist, and the Spirit for Jesus’ ministry. No one at that time could think of "baptism" and "new things" in the same sentence without thinking of John the Baptist’s ministry. This view is advocated by F.B. Meyer in The Gospel of John p.64. The Bible Knowledge Commentary : New Testament p.281 gives five views, but commends only this view as having "the merit of historical propriety as well as theological acceptability." The Life Application Bible gives various views, one of which is the repentance that John the Baptist’s ministry signified. 6. Water is an image for the pouring out of the Spirit in Old Testament times. Jesus said in John 7:38, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (NKJV). The New Geneva Study Bible p.1676 says that while this is not an exact quote of any Old Testament Scripture, it can be a general reference to both Isaiah 44:3 and Ezekiel 36:25-27. Titus 3:5 has very similar phrasing to John 3:5, saying "washing of rebirth and renewal of/by the Holy Spirit" While Acts showed some special cases, the norm was for Christians to be baptized with literal water and the Holy Spirit. However, water is used for ritual washings, not the pouring of the Spirit in the Torah. Also, the Believer’s Bible Commentary p.1478 points out that if the water represented nothing more than the ministry of the Spirit, then the verse would seem to say "unless one is born of the Spirit and the Spirit", which would be redundant. 1 John 5:8 speaks of the water, spirit, and blood. Since the spirit and blood are different, the water is different, too. This view is advocated by the New Geneva Study Bible p.1665. The Companion Bible says it is "spiritual water" as opposed to literal water. The IVP Bible Commentary : New Testament says that the Greek can either be translated "water and the spirit, or water, that is, the spirit." MY CONCLUSION: 1. is not particularly compelling. It only makes sense if you downplay the precision of the Greek, and think Jesus was telling Nicodemus one had to be physically born. 2. relies on Jesus chiding Nicodemus for understanding scripture that was not written yet. For some, this view is necessitated by the opinion that if "baptism" has to mean the error of baptismal regeneration, it cannot be baptism. 3a. is unbiblical, as Acts 10 shows that people could be saved and receive the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism. 3b, 4, and 5. can all be tied together. This view has the merit of the plain meaning, as well as the universal understanding of the Greek-speaking early church. 6. has no merit, except as a secondary implication of 3b, 4, and 5. Perhaps we should focus less on "what this would mean to me" and observe "what this would mean to Nicodemus and early Christians". The most likely answer is a combination of 3b, 4, and 5. While views 2 and 6 are implied symbolism, they would not be recognized by Nicodemus as its main meaning, and were not recognized by any known Greek-speaking Christians. When Critics Ask p.406 also discusses some of the views, without committing to a particular one. Q: In Jn 3:5, is "baptismal regeneration" true, the belief that water baptism is necessary for salvation? A: No. The Gentiles who were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues in Acts 10:44-48, prior to being baptized with water, probably did not think so. Jesus apparently did not think so either when He spoke to the thief on his right. One could try to argue that the thief on the cross was prior to Jesus’ resurrection, but then Jesus’ words to Nicodemus were spoken, and were true, prior to Jesus’ resurrection, too. Of course all of this was prior to the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and there being Christian baptism; John’s baptism and Old Testament washings were all they knew. However, if an interpretation of a verse makes part of the verse without any meaning whatsoever, then that interpretation undoubtedly is incorrect. So what is the meaning of Jesus’ words here? The answer is implied in Luke 7:29-30, where it was said the Pharisees and experts in the Law had rejected God’s purpose for themselves. The reason given is that they had not been baptized by John. Water baptism is neither a meaningless ritual nor merely an optional thing, like choir practice, to show special love to God. If a person with full knowledge rejects water baptism, and the truth it represents, they have rejected God. Unless they turn around, they are not going to Heaven. See also 1001 Bible Questions Answered p.118-119, When Critics Ask p.406, When Cultists Ask p.165-166, and the Complete Book of Bible Answers p.210-211 for more info. For more see our playlist, "Dealing with "Saved by Works & Baptism", "Church of Christ"" with 71 videos & 63 hours of teaching material at ru-vid.com/group/PLBD55090718DA6D3D. See also IS WATER BAPTISM NECESSARY TO ESCAPE HELL & BE SAVED & ARE YOU "BORN AGAIN" (JOHN 3:3-8) BY IT?; THE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN ROMANCE WITH APOSTATE ROMAN CATHOLICISM (PART 1): WATER BAPTISM SALVATION?; & Uncomfortable Questions for Catholics #2: Is Water Baptism Essential & Does Mass Bread Become God?. Also see our newsletter on the "Church of Christ" on our website www.BibleQuery.org (once on our homepage click on the "Experience" box to the left & scroll down to the newsletter section & click on "Church of Christ" & particularly notice the article, "Questions to Consider Concerning Baptism." 1 Corinthians 1:14-17, "14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."
If "eis" means "because of" then Christ died because the sins of the world were removed/forgiven (Matthew 26:28). You are a liar. Respectfully, stop trolling all of my posts.
See our video "The Counterfeit Water Gospel Church ("Church of Christ") that Alexander Campbell Built" at ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-2m6BvMS5Z7g.html. Question: "Does Acts 2:38 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?" Answer: Acts 2:38, “And Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation. For more information, please visit our webpage on "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?" Why, then, do some come to the conclusion that we must be baptized in order to be saved? Often, the discussion of whether or not this passage teaches baptism is required for salvation centers around the Greek word eis that is translated “for” in this passage. Those who hold to the belief that baptism is required for salvation are quick to point to this verse and the fact that it says “be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,” assuming that the word translated “for” in this verse means “in order to get.” However, in both Greek and English, there are many possible usages of the word “for.” As an example, when one says “Take two aspirin for your headache,” it is obvious to everybody that it does not mean “take two aspirin in order to get your headache,” but instead to “take two aspirin because you already have a headache.” There are three possible meanings of the word “for” that might fit the context of Acts 2:38: 1--“in order to be, become, get, have, keep, etc.,” 2-“because of, as the result of,” or 3-“with regard to.” Since any one of the three meanings could fit the context of this passage, additional study is required in order to determine which one is correct. We need to start by looking back to the original language and the meaning of the Greek word eis. This is a common Greek word (it is used 1774 times in the New Testament) that is translated many different ways. Like the English word “for” it can have several different meanings. So, again, we see at least two or three possible meanings of the passage, one that would seem to support that baptism is required for salvation and others that would not. While both the meanings of the Greek word eis are seen in different passages of Scripture, such noted Greek scholars as A.T. Robertson and J.R. Mantey have maintained that the Greek preposition eis in Acts 2:38 should be translated “because of” or “in view of,” and not “in order to,” or “for the purpose of.” One example of how this preposition is used in other Scriptures is seen in Matthew 12:41 where the word eis communicates the “result” of an action. In this case it is said that the people of Nineveh “repented at the preaching of Jonah” (the word translated “at” is the same Greek word eis). Clearly, the meaning of this passage is that they repented “because of’” or “as the result of” Jonah’s preaching. In the same way, it would be possible that Acts 2:38 is indeed communicating the fact that they were to be baptized “as the result of” or “because” they already had believed and in doing so had already received forgiveness of their sins (John 1:12; John 3:14-18; John 5:24; John 11:25-26; Acts 10:43; Acts 13:39; Acts 16:31; Acts 26:18; Romans 10:9; Ephesians 1:12-14). This interpretation of the passage is also consistent with the message recorded in Peter’s next two sermons to unbelievers where he associates the forgiveness of sins with the act of repentance and faith in Christ without even mentioning baptism (Acts 3:17-26; Acts 4:8-12). In addition to Acts 2:38, there are three other verses where the Greek word eis is used in conjunction with the word “baptize” or “baptism.” The first of these is Matthew 3:11, “baptize you with water for repentance.” Clearly the Greek word eis cannot mean “in order to get” in this passage. They were not baptized “in order to get repentance,” but were “baptized because they had repented.” The second passage is Romans 6:3 where we have the phrase “baptized into (eis) His death.” This again fits with the meaning “because of” or in "regard to." The third and final passage is 1 Corinthians 10:2 and the phrase “baptized into (eis) Moses in the cloud and in the sea.” Again, eis cannot mean “in order to get” in this passage because the Israelites were not baptized in order to get Moses to be their leader, but because he was their leader and had led them out of Egypt. If one is consistent with the way the preposition eis is used in conjunction with baptism, we must conclude that Acts 2:38 is indeed referring to their being baptized “because” they had received forgiveness of their sins. Some other verses where the Greek preposition eis does not mean “in order to obtain” are Matthew 28:19; 1 Peter 3:21; Acts 19:3; 1 Corinthians 1:15; and 12:13. The grammatical evidence surrounding this verse and the preposition eis are clear that while both views on this verse are well within the context and the range of possible meanings of the passage, the majority of the evidence is in favor that the best possible definition of the word “for” in this context is either “because of” or “in regard to” and not “in order to get.” Therefore, Acts 2:38, when interpreted correctly, does not teach that baptism is required for salvation. Besides the precise meaning of the preposition translated “for” in this passage, there is another grammatical aspect of this verse to carefully consider-the change between the second person and third person between the verbs and pronouns in the passage. For example, in Peter’s commands to repent and be baptized the Greek verb translated “repent” is in the second person plural while the verb “be baptized,” is in the third person singular. When we couple this with the fact that the pronoun “your” in the phrase “forgiveness of your sins” is also second person plural, we see an important distinction being made that helps us understand this passage. The result of this change from second person plural to third person singular and back would seem to connect the phrase “forgiveness of your sins” directly with the command to “repent.” Therefore, when you take into account the change in person and plurality, essentially what you have is “You (plural) repent for the forgiveness of your (plural) sins, and let each one (singular) of you be baptized (singular).” Or, to put it in a more distinct way: “You all repent for the forgiveness of all of your sins, and let each one of you be baptized.” Another error that is made by those who believe Acts 2:38 teaches baptism is required for salvation is what is sometimes called the Negative Inference Fallacy. Simply put, this is the idea that just because a statement is true, we cannot assume all negations (or opposites) of that statement are true. In other words, just because Acts 2:38 says “repent and be baptized….for the forgiveness of sins…and the gift of the Holy Spirit,” it does not mean that if one repents and is not baptized, he will not receive forgiveness of sins or the gift of the Holy Spirit. There is an important difference between a condition of salvation and a requirement for salvation. The Bible is clear that belief is both a condition and a requirement, but the same cannot be said for baptism. The Bible does not say that if a man is not baptized then he will not be saved. One can add any number of conditions to faith (which is required for salvation), and the person can still be saved. For example if a person believes, is baptized, goes to church, and gives to the poor he will be saved. Where the error in thinking occurs is if one assumes all these other conditions, “baptism, going to church, giving to the poor,” are required for one to be saved. While they might be the evidence of salvation, they are not a requirement for salvation. (For a more thorough explanation of this logical fallacy, please see the Question: Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is required for salvation?). The fact that baptism is not required to receive forgiveness and the gift of the Holy Spirit should also be evident by simply reading a little farther in the book of Acts. In Acts 10:43, Peter tells Cornelius that “through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins” (please note that nothing at this point has been mentioned about being baptized, yet Peter connects believing in Christ with the act of receiving forgiveness for sins). The next thing that happens is, having believed Peter’s message about Christ, the “Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message” (Acts 10:44). It is only after they had believed, and therefore received forgiveness of their sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, that Cornelius and his household were baptized (Acts 10:47-48). The context and the passage are very clear; Cornelius and his household received both forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit before they were ever baptized. In fact, the reason Peter allowed them to be baptized was that they showed evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit “just as Peter and the Jewish believers” had. In conclusion, Acts 2:38 does not teach that baptism is required for salvation. While baptism is important as the sign that one has been justified by faith and as the public declaration of one’s faith in Christ and membership in a local body of believers, it is not the means of remission or forgiveness of sins. The Bible is very clear that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (John 1:12; John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:21-30; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:9-10; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 3:9; Galatians 2:16). Recommended Resources: Believer's Baptism: Sign of the New Covenant in Christ by Schriener and Wright and Logos Bible Software. See also: Does Galatians 3:27 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? at www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Galatians-3-27.html Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? at www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Mark-16-16.html Does 1 Peter 3:21 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? at www.gotquestions.org/baptism-1Peter-3-21.html Does John 3:5 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? at www.gotquestions.org/baptism-John-3-5.html Does Acts 22:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? at www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Acts-22-16.html See our playlist "Dealing with "Saved by Works & Baptism", "Church of Christ"" with 72 videos at ru-vid.com/group/PLBD55090718DA6D3D. Titus 1:9-16
I was in the ICOC for 16 years and even led a campus ministry up in Oakland. I moved to LA area to attend CSU-LB and left in 2008. They'd rather be called Disciples rather than Christians. After years of observing the ICOC from inside and out, a lot of people have damaged lives with respect to the secular world. Hardly anyone has advanced degrees, dreams shattered, and so forth. I've done a lot of things thinking I was doing it for the Lord with nothing to show for in my secular life.
The reason church of Christ members make such a big deal about baptism is because 1. Scripture makes a big deal about it and 2. Deniminationalists downplay baptism and dance around verses that ascribe baptism to part of the plan of salvation. It seems you need to create a strawman that the church of Christ holds baptism as idolatry to make your point when what we really do is simply read what the Bible says about baptism. Baptism is not a work of merit! Titus 3:5 plainly distinguishes works of merit from baptism.
Im confussed. Bible says "be baptized for the forgiveness of sin". But no where does it say baptism is an outward sign of anything. There is scripture that says Jesus has the power to forgive sin. You absolutely spewed your false teaching with no scripture back up.
+Tim Welch - The original Greek word eis, is used forward looking and retrospectively in different places, just like 'for' is used in english. but in Acts 2:38 it is 'for' as 'in order to receive'. The structure and direction of the sentence doesn't allow it as 'because of'. Peter indeed said be baptized in Jesus's name for 'in order to receive' the forgiveness of sins.
Elijah Pinkett, It says repent and baptized in Jesus's name for the forgiveness of sins, not repent for the forgiveness of sins and be baptized in Jesus's name. Both are involved.
So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. Galatians 3:26-27 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. Matthew 28:19-20 And this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3:21 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Acts 2:38 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.” John 3:5 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name. Acts 22:16 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Romans 6:3 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.” Luke 3:21-22 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body-whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free-and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 1 Corinthians 12:13 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:5-6 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. Acts 2:41 He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5
Secondly the metaphor of Go to your moms birthday you just completely slayed your own argument....... Its your moms birthday GO to her birthday. You Going didn't cause it to be her birthday and you Going did not earn your right to be at her birthday but if however you decided Not to GO to her birthday then you would NOT be at her birthday. The key word there is the GO. Going to the birthday is required to be AT the birthday party. Nothing else ..... didn't say bring a present do jumping jacks .... just Go.... but if however you hear you father say Go and you do not Go you would not be at the Birthday....... Then you go on to say completely use the Greek word that wrong by twisting its meaning and giving no context of other scripture where it was used to explain your point. EIS which is the word in acts 2 in between baptized and remission of sins is translated for but is USED over 1000 times in the new testament as (INTO) so your argument that it means because of is false It would be more closely considered the word INTO Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into G1519 the fire.And when Jesus was entered into G1519 Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, Mat 8:14 And when Jesus was come into G1519 Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. Mat 9:1 And he entered into G1519 a ship, and passed over, and came into G1519 his own city. Act 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto G1519 Gaza, which is desert Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into G1519 the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. ......... How many more would you like theres over 1000+ not to mention the UNTOs. The word EIS DOES NOT MEAN BECAUSE OF AND THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF GOD BREATHED SCRIPTURES THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE CHECKED Before you just changed Gods words to suite what you believe. Either way I Love you all honestly
Here is another double edge Scripture. It goes to those who created this video as well as all ICOC disciples and everyone else reading these posts. Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. - James 3:1 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” - Revelation 14:7
Be cautious of any Church of Christ. Most off them have the same basic belief and MO of controlling their followers by methods of fear and threats. This cult has ruin some many lives and families. I speak out of experience and observation.
what God has in stored for you. I left the Church because of their lack understanding of those outside the church. When I left I was shunned, but I know only God matters. I repented, confessed, and was baptized... I do regret confessing because the man whom I confessed to no longer even speaks to me... Last time I went there he gave me a wrongful look. I honestly feel their lack of understanding, and I feel that is there error when it comes to one of the most important concepts the Bible teaches
I'm part of "the church of Christ" not "the international church of Christ" today's the first time I've heard of these guys. But we preach baptism as being buried with christ and rising a new in other words baptism for the remission of sins. As for the thief on the cross that's under the old law. Jesus died a perfect sacrifice for those not only to come after but also before. And in the end who goes to heaven isn't up to you and me Jesus is the one who intercedes. And he can intercede for whoever he wants but that doesn't mean I'm gonna take that chance and not keep his commandments, Or God's or the apostles who had the holly spirit.
Only God through Christ's blood has the power and authority to give the free gift of salvation as long as one believes in the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and the inherent, infallible Word of God. There is no "God's part and man's part" regarding salvation, and by teaching that water baptism is necessary for salvation and the point of salvation is teaching a false gospel. The COC and the ICOC teach a works-based salvation, i.e. "the essential steps to salvation: hearing, believing, confessing, repenting, and being immersed into water for the forgiveness of sins". There is a MONUMENTAL difference between what salvation is and what discipleship is. Discipleship comes AFTER salvation and we can judge one another by their fruits - getting water baptized, spreading the good news, and doing our best to follow all of the teachings of Jesus. The COC/ICOC has a lot of things wrong like teaching Amillennialism, once someone is saved they can lose their salvation, they are the one, true church that Christ spoke of on the day of Pentecost, etc., etc., etc., but the most dangerous heresy they teach is their works-based salvation which is preaching a FALSE GOSPEL. I just came out of the COC and the spiritual/emotional abuse is something that I will be struggling with for a long time; I pray that you might see how harmful and how big of a deal these things are. My heart is broken for all of the people I love that are still a part of the COC I went to because I am so afraid for them when they see Jesus on Judgment Day and he asks them why they had more faith in themselves and man-made doctrines than they did in Him. God bless you, and PLEASE please please listen to what I am saying and earnestly pray about it; these things are no joke.
@@colepriceguitar1153 If you believe then you’ll get baptized. Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16 show me one example of anyone in the new testament who is never baptized and is still said to have salvation.
@@CJWyant3393 There is no example because Baptism washes away your sins according to Acts 22:16. If what you mean is Baptism is a natural product of salvation then you de facto accept that it is necessary for salvation. Because if one does not get baptized they never fully accepted Christ. This line of thinking held by most evangelicals is just a roundabout way of saying Baptism is essential which is the view of those in Churches of Christ.
If anyone approaches you from the ICOC or the ICC (Kip McKean's) break away off shoot, go the other way lest you're looking at a life of years of misery and you wouldn't know it.
Ryan Stolba. I agree with you about calling a church a cult. People are set on edge and easily take people's word when the word cult is thrown at a group. For this reason people don't often have to back up the accusation. Calling a group a cult (which is not even Biblical) because you don't like what they teach, is slander.
@e.r.m. calling a cult is not anymore slander than Jesus calling people a brood of vipers! Even asking them how they will escape being condemned to hell (Matthew 12:34, Matthew 23:33) Jesus was not using slander, but calling them out. Calling a church a cult is not slander if they are an abomination.
I did read the bible, and apply it, which is why I left the ICOC. It simply comes down to the Holy Spirit, the Seal guaranteeing salvation. What is your take on Mark 16:15-20? Have you ever seen any of these things Jesus promises believers will do happen in an ICOC service or amongst any of the "disciples" of Kip McKean and Mike Taliaferro?
I am a member of the ICOC. I have seen some things people have in ICOC have said and I’m not afraid to correct them when they say our way of doing things is the only way. I want you to know that we are following the Scriptures as there are different Scriptures which speak of being saved through Baptism. At the same time I acknowledge there are Scriptures which support baptism as a symbolic. I am not going to get into an exegetical, historical-critical method debate. But it’s real easy for you to say what you say without actually sitting down and having dialogue with ICOC. What I can also say is my radical deliverance from immortality, pornography, and masterbation was due to these things: first, because of the Lord, second, because of my brothers, and third, because I believed their view of baptism is correct. However I would never say to another Christian that their church is wrong and their view of baptism or the sacraments is incorrect. Don’t be so quick to bash or call ICOC a cult based on what some of the ignorant statements all people in all denominations make. If you want to dialogue with our church I can arrange for you to sit down with one of our leaders who is respected all over the place due to his work with the gospel.
What do you say about gas lighting ? It happened to me Medically ...I wasn't doing enough to get well 💔 I use a Mobility scooter I also have bi polar Was told to read the Bible for an hour a day because some other discipline.who has bi polar can ( note this person is a married man ,and married to a fantastic wife who takes care of everything) ...I should be doing it.. I told them I can't 😪 I'm trying to work something out Then the family group all met up somewhere..in winter...by the seaside They expected me to ride about with them on my mobility scooter I said I can't and got a firm SHH with a finger point at me I haven't told my Dr yet Being in a wheelchair or scooter in October, in the UK would be VERY cold I'm diabetic and I feel the cold. The wind chill factor on a scooter is much worse than walking There were other things too 😪 No discipline has the right or knowledge to tell me how to manage my health I'm so broken 💔
There's no historical evidence that salvation by grace alone through faith alone existed at the beginning. That belief was only an innovation of later centuries.
Only God through Christ's blood has the power and authority to give the free gift of salvation as long as one believes in the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and the inherent, infallible Word of God. There is no "God's part and man's part" regarding salvation, and by teaching that water baptism is necessary for salvation and the point of salvation is teaching a false gospel. The COC and the ICOC teach a works-based salvation, i.e. "the essential steps to salvation: hearing, believing, confessing, repenting, and being immersed into water for the forgiveness of sins". There is a MONUMENTAL difference between what salvation is and what discipleship is. Discipleship comes AFTER salvation and we can judge one another by their fruits - getting water baptized, spreading the good news, and doing our best to follow all of the teachings of Jesus. The COC/ICOC has a lot of things wrong like teaching Amillennialism, once someone is saved they can lose their salvation, they are the one, true church that Christ spoke of on the day of Pentecost, etc., etc., etc., but the most dangerous heresy they teach is their works-based salvation which is preaching a FALSE GOSPEL. I just came out of the COC and the spiritual/emotional abuse is something that I will be struggling with for a long time; I pray that you might see how harmful and how big of a deal these things are. My heart is broken for all of the people I love that are still a part of the COC I went to because I am so afraid for them when they see Jesus on Judgment Day and he asks them why they had more faith in themselves and man-made doctrines than they did in Him. God bless you, and PLEASE please please listen to what I am saying and earnestly pray about it; these things are no joke. Also, anyone/everyone who was saved in the Old Testament is proof of grace alone/faith alone; Paul brings up Abraham and David in Romans to make this very clear.
13:23 The teaching that baptism is a necessary part of salvation is not "new". How unfair to point to Campbell as the originator. Myriad, and much older, early Christian writing plainly agrees. You need only read the slightest of early church writing to see that the majority of early Christians taught John 3:5 to refer to water baptism. Of course, we should rely on inspired text: John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, etc. In fact, it is "praying Jesus into your heart" that is a new doctrine, with a likely origin being some time around the 1700's.
Sorry, I quit listening after you said, "Why they are not Christian." When will we as Christians, as disciples of Jesus, allow God to define our relationship with him and not man, whether it is the ICOC or a RU-vid channel?
I'm JUST REGULAR Church of Christ. When was it okay to say what you said at 2:08 - 2:12 ? I am a Christian I was baptized in 2008 at Harding University at their camp called Uplift. When can you just sum up the Church of Christ just by a bad run you had with a church? How can you call a church either not Christian and a cult? How can you do anything like that with the plank in your eyes? Want to call me condemned by the 10 Commandments like you guys always do on all the other videos I've been forced to watch in my cruddy Bible class at school. Haven't you read Romans 16:16 "The Churches of Christ salute you..." Yeah we also believe in the same Bible. same God, same Jesus, and same Baptism (that washes your sins away so you can one day live with Christ in heaven). How can you guy even "Witness" to the lost if you always condemn them? How do you guys even help encourage other Christians if you guys are calling your fellow brothers and sisters not Christians? How can you guys call what you do a "ministry"? Jesus ministered the lost and even the saved by having compassion on them no matter what. Jesus had the ultimately the best ministry. Read the Bible before you guys make another video. Get the plank out of your eyes before you have the faith to reply to this comment. Sincerely, YouthGirl08 Romans 16:16 "The Churches of Christ salute you."
I left for reasons regarding the Holy Spirit. There were other reasons that could potentially have been worked out, hypocrisy, relationship issues, lack of desire for evangelism, but it came down ultimately to the Holy Spirit, and specifically the gifts of the Holy Spirit. When leadership in our local congregation flat out denied that they still exist, (This applies to Dr. Jacoby as well) I knew there was no resolving this doctrinal chasm, and it was time to leave.
I am a member of the ICOC, I would like to thank you for posting this video. I am not renouncing my faith in God or the ICOC. I would like to point out a couple things 1) here at the SSCOC we don't believe our church is the only one from whom people can be saved. 2) When I reach out to people I do not call them "brother or sister" thank you :)
Jesus said to the man on the cross next to him "today you will be with me in paradise". (Luke Chapter 23 Verse 43). Had this man been water baptized??? Water baptism happens because someone has been saved. Water baptism doesn't save. The recent coronation happened because Charles is now the King. The coronation didn't make Charles the King. Charles became the King when his mother - Queen Elizabeth the Second - died. A coronation for William or George would be nonsense as neither of them are King.
isn't baptism a representation of the death-burial-resurrection of Christ? this hasn't happens yet when he forgave the thief on the cross. I'm not a member of this icoc. but you guys are missing the point. bad argument.
Joffrey Alcantara Just my two cents. There is no scripture that says baptism is a representation of the death-burial-resurrection of Jesus Christ, or that it's purpose is to function as such. Those words come only from the commentators on scripture, never the scriptures themselves. Romans 6:5 says there happens to be a likeness to water baptism and the dbr, if you think of it, going down and coming back up. But it never goes further associating this with the purpose of baptism, which is stated in verses 6-7 Romans 6:6-7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him , that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [7] For he that is dead is freed from sin. I agree. There is no point of the thief getting baptized. Although he was crucified with Christ, he was not buried and resurrected with Christ. And in fact, Jesus had not even given the command to be baptized in His name until after He was resurrected. So the whole argument is moot.
Joffrey Alcantara baptism is not required in your salvation.Jesus said you must be born with water and spirit.water represents our flesh birth when water comes with the baby as its born.born of the spirit is when your spirit is made new,new mindset,new man,holy spirit comes as you accept Christ.we get baptised to declare publicly our new birth,in Christ,in joy and thankfullness.it is not required for salvation
Ania Warren - You don't want to tell us that the baptism of John the Baptist and the baptism to testify what Christ did for us after we got saved by trusting in Him had something to do with each other?
@@cynthiaerickson3646 Jesus was speaking to an OLD man who wanted to know how he could be born again. For Nicodemus to be born again, he had to be born of water and Spirit. Unless a man is born "again" of water and the Spirit he can not, will not, see nor enter the kingdom. Remember the question raised by Nicodemus "how can a man when he is "old" be born again?" Babies are not to be immersed in water (baptism), for they are born sinless and have not transgressed God's law, read (Ezk.18:20). There is no conversation between Jesus and Nico regarding childrens birth, so water in Jn.3:5 is not a reference to the water that breaks in pregnacy. When Nicodemus came to Jesus that night, Jesus knew he did not submit to John's baptism. The pharisees refusing to be baptized, "rejected the counsel of God" against themselves not being baptized of John." Jesus sits on that counsel Cynthia, John's baptism was heaven sent. John and Jesus had been baptizing, "a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (Mk.1:4), and all of Judea and they of Jerusalem were being baptized of John and Jesus (Jn.4:1). Nicodemus did not have an issue with the meaning of "water," and from the rest of the teaching in the NT regarding baptism, there is no reason to give it a foreign meaning in that passage of Jn.3:5. Nicodemus issue was regarding the Spirit, in the new birth process. As Jesus explains (as the conversation is regarding the new birth), Birth of the flesh is VISIBLE, (baptism in water), a baptismal ceremony can be seen, where born of the Spirit is INVISIBLE, the forgivenes of sins, the appeal of a good conscience, the reception of the Spirit as a gift. Jesus uses the "wind" as an ilustration to explain to Nicodemus. Jesus teaching on the new birth is in harmony with what Peter was commanded to teach "repent and be baptized...for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). Yes! Baptism is essential to salvation, far more important than you realize. Jesus is very serious, anyone not baptized according to the reason taught by Jesus will not enter the kingdom. Jesus humbled Nicodemus, and later we read of Nico assisting in bringing down his body from the cross. Signs of a disciple, right? To be a disciple, you had to be baptized under John's baptism. So after Nico left he may have been baptized as Jesus warned him, then on Pentecost when the HS came, Nico recieved the gift of the HS as the 3000 did that day.
Justin Martyr supported forgiveness in baptism in A.D. 155, about fifty-five years after the Apostle John died: Justin was born around 100 AD and was converted around age 30 AD, which makes this belief as early as 30 years after John died. Since he said he learned this from the Apostles, then this is what the Apostles taught.
I was in the ICOC in Denver for 20 years. They do preach that baptism is needed for salvation. They also preach that if you are not fruitful (convert people) that you're salvation isn't guaranteed. They dropped discipling so they are not as cultish as before. Kip started a new movement called The international christian church which is the same as the ICOC. Arguing about salvation is pointless to me. How about doing important stuff like follow Jesus?
Two thoughts: #1- The ICC is much different than the Icoc, #2- Why argue about salvation vs following Jesus? Easy: Because if your salvation doctrine is wrong and you aren't making disciples, you AREN'T following Jesus but just a religious tradition of men.
McKeanism is just another denomination like the 2500 that exist today. The reason for this is that the Bible is full of contradictions and can be made to say anything. McKeanism is a pyramid scheme that benefits the top evangelists. It may give you happiness for a short while but it fades and becomes exhausting and pointless when you find that nothing you do can please the leadership or your God. It's been 30 years and the world has not been evangelized and never will be.
Ellen Roberts, Kip's new church and ICOC hold the same core beliefs, but Kip McKean and the lack thereof, in my opinion is the biggest difference, and it makes a big difference
e. r.m. Sorry I failed to reply to the previous message in a timely fashion. I have one simple question. Setting aside all the systemic metbological approches used in the restoration movement, In your opinion, do these churches follow a plan of salvation that actually is saving someone?
In addition to professing false doctrine, they want total control of you. While we were involved with them, we had a "discipler" who basically kept track of every move we made through several phone calls a day. When we started seeing truth, and my husband was confronting them, showing them from the Bible how they were wrong, they told him to leave, and that as long as we were not part of this cult, either my husband would commit suicide or we would be divorced within the year.
Amen! u r so right. that's exactly what they do. if a church tells u that if u leave their church u r leaving God and going 2 hell (that is a mind controling cult!) They want u 2 believe that salvation is only found in their church. (wrong!)
I'm apart of a campus ministry, and we are truly living out the bible! Being persecuted daily. If your world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as it's own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.That is why the world hates you. John 15:18-19
Only God through Christ's blood has the power and authority to give the free gift of salvation as long as one believes in the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and the inherent, infallible Word of God. There is no "God's part and man's part" regarding salvation, and by teaching that water baptism is necessary for salvation and the point of salvation is teaching a false gospel. The COC and the ICOC teach a works-based salvation, i.e. "the essential steps to salvation: hearing, believing, confessing, repenting, and being immersed into water for the forgiveness of sins". There is a MONUMENTAL difference between what salvation is and what discipleship is. Discipleship comes AFTER salvation and we can judge one another by their fruits - getting water baptized, spreading the good news, and doing our best to follow all of the teachings of Jesus. The COC/ICOC has a lot of things wrong like teaching Amillennialism, once someone is saved they can lose their salvation, they are the one, true church that Christ spoke of on the day of Pentecost, etc., etc., etc., but the most dangerous heresy they teach is their works-based salvation which is preaching a FALSE GOSPEL. I just came out of the COC and the spiritual/emotional abuse is something that I will be struggling with for a long time; I pray that you might see how harmful and how big of a deal these things are. My heart is broken for all of the people I love that are still a part of the COC I went to because I am so afraid for them when they see Jesus on Judgment Day and he asks them why they had more faith in themselves and man-made doctrines than they did in Him. God bless you, and PLEASE please please listen to what I am saying and earnestly pray about it; these things are no joke.
John, I wondered the same thing, then when it was taught WHY I was shocked I didn't catch it the first time. hmu at brice.williams@usd21.org if you are still wodnering about this.
Good question! Let's try be objective about this... and look to God's Word. In Luke 13, people come to Jesus with a similar hypothetical scenario. Jesus was teaching that you needed to repent to be saved! Now, the religious people of his day were outraged at this claim. How could God love people and yet need them too repent before they die to be saved? Isn't it enough to just be a Jew and follow the laws and traditions? Jesus answered these people, "those eighteen people who died when the tower of Siloam fell on them, do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you- No! But unless you repent you too will perish. Then, he tells the parable of the vineyard. (I encourage you to go read it for yourself). He answers their question in a funny way here, he basically says we are all going to die one day, so stop worrying about silly hypotheticals, and just make sure you're ready. Make sure you repent and by extension, teach others to repent. I believe the same logic can be applied for baptism. Make sure you're baptised as the bible teaches, and teach others to be baptised as the bible teaches. This can also be applied to other things like evangelism, or loving thy neighbour, etc. A person on their death bed isn’t necessarily able to do these things and yet they are commanded of us, and necessary in the life of a true, repentant disciple. God can do anything! He is a just judge, merciful and loving. Someone on their deathbed may very well be able to be saved w/o baptism.. But as I am given opportunity, and others are given opportunity, let us teach people to obey everything God has commanded in His Word.
@@danny3656 You could of at least say yes or no in the beginning of this essay, but the reason we ask is because scripture cannot contradict itself, and if God is not a respector of people and does not make salvation easier to the other person, then how would a person be saved in just a few moments like the thieves in the cross. Jesus said if any man try to find another way out such as a easier method then he is a thieve. So how was a thieve in the cross saved without having a water baptism. Yeah we should not forbid water what about those who is not able to get baptized?
I'm very encouraged that your experience didn't deter you from seeking our Lord and Father. I'm glad you found a great church with love & warmth! It's nice to know there are other churches out there who show that kind of love because the ICOC is the only church I personally have found that does their best to love the way the Bible calls us to love one another.
It's 2012 and the areas we needed to work through we did. We learned from our mistakes, but guess what? We still need God's grace in spite of our efforts to do our best to serve Him. What is disturbing for me is that you cannot have reliable fact about our PRESENT spiritual condition from someone that has left the church years ago when those issues were present. I was there myself and have seen the growth and changes over the years. I see things from the present and inside vantage point.
2 things. 1 - I will stop defending my Faith which is based on the Word of God, Jesus and HIS teachings when people stop distorting the truth. 2 - "He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
Morning! You described these individuals as being in a cult but....are they lost or saved? If they are lost, what's your responsibility and if they are saved then what's the debate? Lastly speaking of baptism, one of the gentlemen in your video talked about being baptized previously and was called by disciples of the International Church of Christ to be baptized "again." Question: In Acts 19:1-7, Paul comes across some disciples from Ephesus and questions them. How many baptisms did these men undergo?
Yeah but the difference is they only had the baptism of repentance from John, not the baptism into the church. So these were true disciples of Christ who haven't been officiated into the church publicly. So your argument does not apply. Unless ofcourse, John the Baptist is your minister :)
Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:4-5 NASB
Justin Martyr: "And for [water baptism] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed." (Justin, First Apology 61)
Remember on the time of Jesus many believers also cannot accept the hard teachings of Jesus. And decided not follow Him. (John 6:66) And they create their own way of faith( 2Tim4:3). The issue is our heart. Do we really love the Lord Jesus?
I WAS a member of the ICOC, and they did teach that only ICOC were saved. They also taught that if you were not part of the KINGDOM / ICOC, you were lost. Christian = disciple = saved. NOTE: I did leave in 93. so their view on this subject may have changed. Since, I have found more love and warmth from other churches. Again, this is my experience from years ago.
CoachBriceWilliams tell me in the Bible where I am commanded to be baptized directly. Tell me where God says "be baptized in order to walk with me in heaven." Tell me where he says that then I'll consider believing that you need to be baptized in order to get into heaven.
I'll call you to give you a brief overview then email a full study so you can see what scripture says then come to your own conclusions. Thank you for the quick reply =)
Jesus also said that if the works He did had been done in cities that had been destroyed in judgment that they would have repented, but the cities of Israel would not repent (Matthew 11:20-24). That means He could have saved them but He didn't and instead went to men who would reject Him (Isaiah 6:9-10). He then very blatantly says "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that YOU HAVE HIDDEN these things from the wise and prudent and REVEALED them to babes."
Regarding the thief on the cross... Eeek! That is not what the OCOC answers. The answer is obvious: Jesus had not yet died. Salvation through his death and resurrection had not yet been established. The thief is no different from the woman at the well, other than he is very soon to die. So really the thief on the cross is not an argument for Calvinistic teaching.
Oops, I do see a typo: I typed OCOC and I meant to type ICOC, that is to say International Churches of Christ. Also, please don't shoot the messenger...I am not a member of the aforementioned institution. I am a member of the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Peace.
Hi.... Have you read John 19:30-34? Seems to me that Christ did die before either thief.... at least that's my understanding of this scripture..... if Christ wasn't dead the Romans would have broken his legs.
HillbilySwarp Yes, Christ did die before the thief on the cross, however he didn't rise until the third day. Resurrection was a necessary step in making him our messiah. In this way he conquered death and this is why we can have eternal life through his blood.
Read Ronans chapter 6. Therein we learn that we are baptized into his death through baptism. That was redundant. So read the whole chapter before you believe these people talking here. Apparently they didn’t read the WHOLE Bible.
I left the ICOC because of other issues. There are more scriptures than Acts 2:38 supporting baptism, and none that make it unnecessary. It is a command, and refusal to be baptized is disobedience.
Full emersion is what is taught in churches of Christ. Bedridden folks are left out and if you say they can be sprinkled you don't really believe what your teaching . Leaving this cult today .
Acts 22... Why are you waiting... arise and be baptized and wash away your sins calling on the name of the lord. (wait a minute... I thought he had been praying for three days before)? Hum... 'calling on the name of the Lord' must be euphemistic for baptism.
I had been a member and the holy spirit of God through the msg of Christ is what saves us! Its what's he has done and nothing we do on our own. It is truly by the gospel which we are saved through the faith in Jesus Christ in which grace we receive. It is the fire from God himself which refines us by the spirit
Think Before You Speak. Do you guys believe in the Bible...I believe you better read it if you do because it plainly says you have to be baptized...but that alone don' t save you unless you live it by the Bible...I am Church Of Christ & have been all my life & my Mom & her Mom before her...but I don't want to disapoint you, but I don't know & won't say that we are the only ones goin to heaven, because God is the only one who knows this.. But I hope you know its wrong to cut down the church..will pray for all of you, God Bless
ladytrucker67, As a member of ICOC, I've heard that around and have not heard that directly from anyone otherwise I'd correct them. It's a sporadic belief by a small few, not ubiquitous. I believe it's similar with mainline Churches of Christ. Just my two cents.
You are saved by proclaiming Jesus as Lord and savior. Baptism comes after this confession and is a ouward sign of this. Also, if your church does not believe the myth they you are the one true church why do you require rebaptism and studying of the Bible before baptism?
What all people don't realize is that NONE of these doctrinal issues that continue to plague the church is not going to matter to God or us in the end. When everything is said and done and the end is here no one will care if you needed to be baptized to be saved or if babis should be baptized. These will be trivial when the end comes just as it is now. It will not matter to God what position you take on these issues as long as YOU are "working out your own salvation with fear and trembling"
Only God through Christ's blood has the power and authority to give the free gift of salvation as long as one believes in the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and the inherent, infallible Word of God. There is no "God's part and man's part" regarding salvation, and by teaching that water baptism is necessary for salvation and the point of salvation is teaching a false gospel. The COC and the ICOC teach a works-based salvation, i.e. "the essential steps to salvation: hearing, believing, confessing, repenting, and being immersed into water for the forgiveness of sins". There is a MONUMENTAL difference between what salvation is and what discipleship is. Discipleship comes AFTER salvation and we can judge one another by their fruits - getting water baptized, spreading the good news, and doing our best to follow all of the teachings of Jesus. The COC/ICOC has a lot of things wrong like teaching Amillennialism, once someone is saved they can lose their salvation, they are the one, true church that Christ spoke of on the day of Pentecost, etc., etc., etc., but the most dangerous heresy they teach is their works-based salvation which is preaching a FALSE GOSPEL. I just came out of the COC and the spiritual/emotional abuse is something that I will be struggling with for a long time; I pray that you might see how harmful and how big of a deal these things are. My heart is broken for all of the people I love that are still a part of the COC I went to because I am so afraid for them when they see Jesus on Judgment Day and he asks them why they had more faith in themselves and man-made doctrines than they did in Him. God bless you, and PLEASE please please listen to what I am saying and earnestly pray about it; these things are no joke.
Rico Cruz, That weird teaching of getting baptized as an outward sign always makes me wonder how people can believe in a teaching that has not a single scripture reference.
In the four years since I wrote that I have seen a slight backing away from that position whenever I or others have shed light on the nonscriptural basis of this belief. It's like they know they really can't defend it.
They preach the doctrine falsely. Don't let that experience discourage you.. keep seeking the lord and get into a church where his word is being preached correctly. We are saved by hearing, believing, trusting in CHRIST and in the gospel. The water isn't what saves us its Gods mercy grace and love; nothing we've done ourselves or by man but by the holyspirit of God. Christ already did all the work and paid the price for us he was the only acceptable atonement for our sins.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. While not promoting gambling, just using this as an example. Whoever buys a lottery ticket and claims his prize shall win, but he that buys no ticket can not win. There is no need to mention that baptism doesn't condem you just as it's not necesary to mention claim your ticket since you have to buy one to win, or believe to be saved.
Mary Hollingsworth there is a mainstream church of Christ that has been around for years the ICOC is an offshoot of that, started in 1979 with a group of 40 people who felt they had all the answers and they eventually decided that if you weren't baptized into ICOC you weren't saved. unfortunately I was in that church for many years and speak from experience. it is a cult.
in themix Right, you are talking to the choir. Life time church of christ ---- know a few folks in these movements --- crossroads, boston, so forth ----- pressure pressure pressure ---- knew a lady who finally left after she was criticized for choosing parent-teacher night at the schools over a bible study. What happened after you left? Did you go back to mainstream church? I know many don't.
Mary Hollingsworth I was never part of the Mainstream COC. I have found a fantastic nondenominational church that teaches full Bible with no pressure. unfortunately a lot of people here have been damaged by denominational religion but over time God is healing. I have found so much peace. I learned some things in the ICOC and should have bailed after a year or so. every time I was pressured or abused I thought I was being faithful to God. God didn't want me to be there and he was making that very clear but I didn't see that. I remember feeling for many years like I "missed" God. going to meetings and giving money and being given horrid advice wasn't Godly and I was being hurt.
in themix so happy to hear a good ending. Sounds like you have come out the other end. You have a testimony that can speak to others who are in the same shape you once found yourself. Your comment line up with what I have heard from others. If you don't mind me asking, how do you think you wound up in ICOC in the first place, initially?
Mary Hollingsworth I was "met" in a park but I was looking for someone to teach me about God, not to run my life and run me and my life and my finances down and tell me I was going to go to Hell if I didn't hand over everything? where did I make a wrong turn? when I didn't walk when I saw things start to get way too crazy. I was hurt by the constant threats of rejection and the suggestion that if I left it was them sending me away.
I haven't studied this church but I do believe baptism is more than just a profession of faith in that it is a command and an example of Jesus. And it is for the remission of sins according to scripture. Also in a letter it says that that baptism does now save us. Now in context it doesn't save us because Jesus does because his blood was shed and Grace, but we cannot pick and choose things we don't like. It is not a work but a command as apart of faith and repentance.
Just wanna say I have had a complete opposite experience and have seen no such behaviours in the church, especially on an organisational level. I am shurtstuff
Hi everyone, being a christian is being like Christ. It is very hard to be like Him, But if you really love Him you will do what He commands.(John 14:15). I am a frmr "Born Again Christian"...ICOC only follows what Jesus has commanded (John 14:12). We will never understand it if we don't put Jesus teachings in our hearts. We WILL BECAME self righteous & WILL JUSTIFY our own beliefs like many religious leaders today & even the pharisees on old days. If you really love Him you will obey what He commands even to the point of people will criticize you as being a cult. God sees our hearts.
The word also teaches that Jesus is the chief cornerstone and uses a building to illustrate how the one true Church is to be built. built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit. - Ephesians 2:19-21 A clue for those seeking the Kingdom of God
Self-righteousness stems from comparing oneself with another and even themselves. Paul said that this is not wise. We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise. 2 Corinthians 10:12 Study the two to learn more about what it means The Pharisee and Tax collector Luke 18:9-14 if I allow the Bible to teach and correct me it will be humility towards God.
they tell u family members r not saved, because they were not saved or baptist in that church, then they encourage their members to stay away from their family members, divorce their spouse or have nothing 2 do with those who r not a part of their church. i went their 4 a month. i found about them real quick. my son goes there, so i know from first hand experience.
u r so right. They have nothing 2 do with people that leave because they no longer want 2 b controled by them. They tell all the members to have no contact with the person that left or got kicked out.
I spoke to Doug Jacoby, he says he never backed out of the debate and never told people "he needed time to prepare" this is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. The debate co-ordinator will be sending a formal letter of complaint to this show for the dishonest representation made here.
I left an ICOC church a couple years ago over the baptismal regeneration issue but it’s funny because I’ve sense started to embrace Reformed theology and most of the Reformers who coined phrases like the five solas had no problem saying salvation is by faith alone AND that baptism saves. As confusing as that sounds.
