Antler restrictions work. Change my mind. well you guys did! I consider myself decently intelligent and a big hunter but never thought of all the details like you guys did. Basic Logic. Less people shooting 2 points means more 4 points. More 4 points means more bigger 4 points. What I understand now: Less people Shooting 2 points means less 4 points and more 3 points and still less mature deer. The problem lies in too many bucks being killed! Not the points on the buck. A RU-vid video that actually changed my opinion. Nice episode.
Really good podcast guys. Broke down the information really well and brought me good insight on the current situations. I’ve got to agree on pretty much everything you guys said. I would definitely not be opposed to tag cuts and paying a little bit more or even a couple years with no tags to help the population out in those general units.
4 point or better is a little bit to much. I am against all the weapons bands But could live with non scoped muzzleloaders. The antler restrictions should be 3 point or better on one side to anyone over the age of 18. That would give young hunters a better hunt to get them more involved. It took my daughter 4 years to draw a deer tag Kinda hard to get the young ones involved if they can’t draw a tag! If we cut tag number than that don’t help that at all. Only makes it worse and then who knows how long it will be till they can draw a tag. Shorten hunt lengths, take scopes off muzzleloaders, keep compound bows, and 3 point or better on one side to anyone over the age of 18.
@@thedeerking5350 well that’s on the adult. I would never in my life shoot a deer and make my kid tag it. And if you do then you should not be hunting. Kids should have opportunities every year that are not just archery and should be able to harvest what they want. With technology now days there is no reason you shouldn’t be able to tell a deer has 3 points and if you shoot a 2 point as an adult then it’s not up to law enforcement but us as hunters to help enforce that. Most laws they make cannot be enforced with the resources they have. They have to count on us as hunters do do the right thing and help. With all the hunters out there now days someone will see or hear something
I say this as a general statement but when it comes to the management of the heard out west, the biggest pieces that effect that are of course habitat loss and predation…. I think the states are trying to focus on the wrong end of management. Those few weeks a year where hunters are the number 1 cause of death, don’t hold a candle to the remaining 48+ weeks (depending on state) where habitat loss and natures predators wreak havoc on population numbers. I do believe breaking apart the seasons through weapons restrictions is a good thing, gives more tag opportunity and for the most part the states do a decent enough job of that. however, having a “no Compound bow hunting or, and a muzzleloader has to have manufactured sites and nothing else” is ridiculous. Scope limitations (1x,3x whatever) that seems reasonable, but a compound bow that has a max effective range of 60-65yards for 95% of archers isn’t primitive enough?? Next they are going to introduce a “loin cloth and moccasin only” season. I’m sure the argument for said restrictions goes something like this “I’m not seeing all the big bucks like I did 10years ago, it’s gotta be all the new compound hunters on the mountain”… can’t be the fact that most western states have almost doubled in size since 2000, most of those states have reintroduced wolves/grizzlies, and are doing a piss poor job of managing ALL predators…. Sounds like jealousy to me from a small group of southern Utah residents who want their own heard to hunt. I would agree that this not good for hunting as a whole, but is probably very good for someone who lives right there. What grows big deer is habitat. Not limiting Joe to a recurve, or jim forced into buying a muzzleloader with fixed iron sights….This does not Help the deer, only hurt. I also believe season restriction from 10 down to 5 days only hurts the quality and experience of the hunt, and will hurt hunting and that younger generation more than it will us adults.
I'm a Utah resident and my guess is on the deer study being in the south is because they're less affected by winter kill from harsh conditions so you have a better probability of the results truly showing the management practice effects as opposed to the random Mother Nature effects.
Loved this episode, I’m a resident in Utah, I totally agree with most of your views with the new experiments that the division is trying. I personally agree with what some of you said about either lowering the tag numbers or basically just shutting units down. I feel like every year things are getting worse here in the state. Hopefully the division can wake up and figure something out.
The whole reason for the State making changes is money. They mismanaged hunts for almost a decade. I went to the So RAC meeting, in Beaver, stood up voiced my opinion they were selling too many tags and wiping out elk and deer herd and to stop with the abundant cow elk tags, and eliminate cow elk with archery tag. Their Biologists disagreed, stating the herd studies in winter feeding areas were still strong, and we had to hunt further and harder. But here we are with depleted herd, the biologists/experts were wrong. When you look at all the States proposals and changes, one consistent end result is obvious- how can the State still sell enough tags and make their money, while reducing the % of successful hunts, allowing herd numbers to remain unchanged. The State plays the % game. If elk compound archery tag is 11% successful and the herd numbers are no longer 15 cows to 1 bull, make it harder to be successful by forcing hunters to use recurve bow instead. That 11% success rate will drop to 3% allowing the State to sell more tags each year while increasing or at a minimum maintain herd populations, and make their needed revenue for budget. Utah its all about revenue.
I'm not sure that point restrictions really help the population. Most hunters are targeting the larger bucks anyway so what's the improvement. So everyone now will be targeting larger bucks and not getting off the playing field but getting to shoot a forkhorn. Why not say forkhorn or smaller for about 3 years with only a few select draw hunts for larger bucks and let the intermediate and bigger bucks grow more. They have point restrictions here in WA for elk and MD and nothing is any better. I guess the idea is the spikes and 2 points can grow to get bigger but for everyone of those that is shot is a larger buck that may not be killed.
I am a resident of Utah and this was a great podcast. I agree and especially with the antler restrictions. I seen everything you were talking about because I hunted in one of the previous units Utah did this. Is there any way Brady can share those studies he was reading from.
I love how Brady is so adamant about shooting a .30 cal because he doesn’t want to be under-gunner. But he also wants muzzleloader hunts to be more primitive making the hunter essentially under-gunned. But I see where he’s coming from on this one. Having a magnified scope would probably encourage more hunters to take longer shots and even though it might seem like the scope would help make an accurate shot but a lot of hunters aren’t proficient enough with that weapon to match it. Whereas with no scope more hunters would be more likely to get as close as possible.
He says people say that the division is all about the money and people do say that because that is the perspective that the division creates. At least here in AZ they are perceived as being that way and that is their fault. New trucks new gear new this and that and waazooo headquarters always looking for a way to make more money on point guard and ethics point class and text money and raffle tags and it goes on and on. You do not see them in the field doing projects or management during fawn seasons Coyotes kill tons of baby pronghorn and deer here and we do not have a surplus of elk for there to be so many cow tags
Are there links to the studies about point restrictions you guys read? I live in British Columbia and the area I live in has a 4 point Mule deer restriction AND a 6 point elk restriction (but a rifle season that goes from Sept. 10- Oct. 20 - which doesn't make any sense) Most people here do not want to go to a draw system, since (according to them) that will be the end of elk or mule deer hunting. I don't really get the reasoning. Maybe that's just ignorance or lack of knowledge on my part. I really wish they would bring some changes in here like archery only during the elk rut.
I think antler point restriction is fine if youre talking 2 point in the west or total 4 point both side or better. Shooting button bucks aren't going to help grow big deer down the road. I think it all depends on where they are at. Some places do well and some dont.
I hope the dwr and people proposing watch this ALL THE WAY THROUGH…. Great job guys. Habitat, cut tags, leave everything else alone and we are fine. They are adjusting things that are not the problem…. Also - a lot of companies that are compound bow, scopes, trail cams etc are extremely involved with partnerships and alignments in building better hunting experiences and habitat. Good luck getting their support going forward. Where will they get the support in Utah… less people will hunt…. Less revenue for the state….. In 3 years they will reverse this all if it goes through… they won’t be able to afford the alternative
This really opened my eyes on the mule Deer side of things. Although, it feels like I have seen a reaped the benefits from antler point restrictions on elk over the last 25 years in Colorado. I would like to know gohunt’s view, or opinion on if Colorado’s implementation of this was a huge success, or a fail? Like I said, I can see this being challenging on the Mule deer side like you have pointed out and I really appreciate that insight! Do you all know if there are supporting documents I can look at that would tell me definitively one way or the other on Colorado’s elk? Thanks again gohunt! Keep up the good work!
After listening to the whole podcast I am curious if you feel APR’s work different from mule deer to whitetail? Brady being from MN I am sure has had APR in the whitetail woods. I live in MI and in the northern lower they put APR’s in place back in the early 2000’s and my friend didn’t take anything the year after but since then has had a opportunity at much larger deer yearly. I will agree it has no impact on population size. Thanks for the discussion.
What about leaving the existing season length, tag allocation, weapon usage, but having a hunt every other year? My guess is that it would be pretty fantastic hunting.
Tags need to be adjusted yearly based on the previous year harvest numbers and weather (drought/cold kill) (this would be an educated guess). Pair these adjustments with predator controls.
I believe weather is a critical factor in herd survival. But I do not believe that is why herd numbers decreased from the glory days of 2016 as Trail stated. What is the biggest X factor in that time? Technology, Not weather. It was social media influencers. It was web sites popping up cashing in the growing profitable industry of hunting. People sharing hunt techniques, better set up of bows, better range finders, scopes, ELR rifles, muzzle loaders, etc. Technology is the X factor that changed hunts into more successful outings. If nothing else it also created more wounded animals as more inexperienced people hit the woods loaded with info, technology but still didnt have the needed skills. Go hunt does what takes years to gather. Look at clothing today, better lighter more flexible, faster drying. Look at backpacks, no more need for frame packs. Look at light weight gear, carry more stay longer. it leads to more hunt pressure for longer periods with increased success rates. Modern gear, websites full of data for the newbie, social media sites explaining thermals, stalk methods- these are the X factor.
Any ML should be able to be used in rifle season, not in a specific ML season. The specific ML season should be more primitive. But then as far as WA goes in archery they just recently allowed lighted nocks, so slowly things are changing. ML a few years ago finally allowed fiber optic front sights.
I actually linked it in the article on the website. But glad to help and link it here: wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Habitat/Mule%20Deer%20Initiative/MULEDEER_ANTLERPOINTREGS_REVIE0006790.pdf
Until you increase the education level of hunters, you can legislate everything all day and they'll only piss people off. Increase education. Idea. Make hunter safety renewal required every five years. Start including classes on ethics, shooting, QDM, survival, etc.. make it actually educational.
1:36:46 around all these there are contradictions. There are tons of counters to your statements that go unchallenged. If a guy is a non resident and has to buy say a muzzleloader that likely will be the least cost for most of their gear and tags. Point is there are tons of ways you can flip it around and make it make sense. Just because you guys give an anecdotal experience which is nothing like 99% of the hunting population doesn't mean you're right. Do enjoy listening to these but don't care for 3 dudes on the same bandwagon all the time. It lacks perspective
Maybe people just need to put in more effort and have a better attitude towards hunting. At what time does all the technology helping hunters be lazy need to have a cap?
Ok. As a utah resident ex dedicated elk and deer hunter.bankrupt cattleman producer and rancher. Feed water habitat road protection, predator summer and winter range.... Let's talk about the Elephants in the room. Poorest, management around, without high wolf numbers, greed, corruption and totalitarian rule from u.s.fish and wildlife.low opportunities.
Stop moving the goal posts and reducing hunter harvest sucess playing god with bonus points most people don't live long enough to draw a tag 20+ years to hunt backyard
Thanks for all this fantastic information. These are studies that most of us never hear about. I may have a differing opinion of these things than most, and it probably contradicts the desires of other hunters. I don't hunt for trophy racks. I frankly don't want them. I started hunting because I wanted the thrill and the challenge of it and because I wanted a more intimate understanding of where my meat comes from. I don't want point or even age restrictions because the best meat I can get will NOT come from an old buck. If doe tags were as available here in Utah as they are in whitetail states then I'd only hunt does. I'm aware that you guys said populations will be healthier without doe hunting, and I want what's best for everybody to have a chance to hunt so I'm fine with not being able to hunt does. But I really hope I don't ever get restricted to only hunting gnarly old bucks that just aren't as good for eating. I'd rather leave those for the guys who want them.
