All of these comparison videos have been created using the same method. They are sending the amp models into the same 3rd party IR and this is a totally valid test. We (Fender) have already stated that (for now) this will yield less authentic results than using our factory IRs. We are already working on (and were long before these videos were posted) implementing more capabilities into our 3rd party IR block that will enable the desired results. This will also have a positive outcome when using external IRs and/or a SS power amp driving a real cabinet. Today (12/3) is literally the 2nd month post-launch for TM Pro. We have a long roadmap of updates planned that include not only new features and models but also tweaks to current features that were in the product on launch day. We (Fender) really appreciate the engagement and feedback we’ve gotten thus far and are excited to implement some of the suggestions. The best part about all products like this is the ability for continuous improvement that enhances the playing experience on all platforms. We’re excited to have you all be a part of that process. Jason S. - Product Director, Fender Amps
The JCM 800 in the TMP also has a kind of cross bleed distortion effect coming through on the low end when strings ring out and seems to be permanently baked into the tone This is my core tone to build off and is pretty much unusable at the moment With its own IR and free of this anomaly it would be a killer tone Hopefully this is one the first things fixed in update 1
Completely fascinating. It confirmed my feeling that Line 6 finally got it right with the new 2203 model. Couldn't agree more that the Axe, Helix and Quad all produce very fine and usable tones. Informative and enjoyable demo, as always.
From the blind test I preferred them in order A > B > C > D. D seemed really choppy and compressed. A was the most open with a subtle change from A to B. C dropped a little more depth.
Armed and Ready has been my "go to" sound check riff for years! It cracks me up to hear you using it so much as well. How about "Get Out" from the first McAuley Schenker Group record or "Captain Nemo"?
God that new Helix 2203 is soooo gooooooooood. Was beyond excited when I saw that in the patch notes. That being said, I actually kinda liked D too. Having that 800 sound with a little extra low end just isn't a bad thing imo, at least on these speakers.
Amazing how close they all sound. I really believe at this level of modeler it's all about which one has the features you need and the models you prefer.
I appreciate the fascination with the JCM 800 and find it curious at the same time. When I had one in the 80s, lots of people did not like them and talked about their inconsistency. Along the way, I got to hear how other folks' JCM 800 sounded in comparison to mine. Sometimes it was similar and other times not so much. I was a teen and knew nothing about variance in electronics, the impact of tubes, and modifications. Heck, I didn't know what a bright cap was or wasn't. Listening to Leon's recording with high quality phones, I hear four similar yet different sounds. They are all under that JCM 800 umbrella. Leon shows us some of limitations with Fender's controls. I recall the controls on the real thing not being that great. I wonder if Fender modeled it as such? Helix's prior version of the 800 reminded me of what Fender has on tap now. Back in the day with amp format, there were variations and no "right" way for 800 to sound. Piggybacking on Leon's prior blog about the future of modeling, I hope users of this format do not come to expect a singular version of an amp but embrace iterations/variations of a given amp. Otherwise, we will all be using the same generic sounds.
Big Schenker fan. People have speculated for years that the Live at Budokan album was actually done in the studio, but I disagree. I have a bunch of bootleg recordings from that run of shows in Japan, and can definitely identify the tracks used on the album. Same thing with Judas Priest Unleashed in the East. I had a JCM 800 years ago, but it was a combo and sounded different. Couple of times I plugged the speaker out into a 4x12. Completely changed the sound and feel. Favourite MSG track? Into the Arena. Or Let Sleeping Dogs Lie. Lost Horizons is up there too.
Great vid. I’ve been using tubes amps all of my career. I dabbled with a couple of modelers here and there. I was never really sold on them. I pulled the trigger on the quad cortex a couple of months ago and couldn’t be happier.
That's interesting about the impedance curve modeling being in the speaker block... I almost always use modelers with a SS power amp and cab, and I think the reaction is much better on the TMP compared to others. I'm fully willing to admit that might just be because the UI looks cool too though. I really hope fender supports the TMP and increases the amp quanitity as well as adding in things like power amp modeling (even if only to be able to turn it on and off). Pretty basic things that any flagship should have.
Got all models right... Helix user here, I've been really curious about the Fractal for some time, but after hearing what I think is my dream amp on all four platforms, I will hold the new modeler purchase and get another guitar... or a nice pair of FRFR cabs...
That's why I'm not in a rush for the Tone Master Pro. I knew there would be a few bugs in it, and will get sorted out in the next revision. Good one Leon👍
Usually I don't like "comparison" videos but this one was good - You sure made sure to compare the right things, only the amp block and nothing else. Cool outro stuff :)
Great comp. With everything coming out about the TMP recently, I wouldn’t touch it with a 10 foot pole. Too many other platforms way more dialed in at this point. Also, check out One World by MSG, and also at least half the tunes on The Unforgiven album…that album is a clearinghouse of chunky, groovy riffs.
thanks for great comparison , leon. I was lying in my bedroom listening to it on my phone, then sat down in front of the computer to listen closely. Fractal (A)'s bite, palm muting, and aggressiveness when scratching chords are truly amazing. I don't know if this makes sense, but "it's the quietest, but it's also the most focused." B also tried its best, but it was a little softer than A (I couldn't feel it when listening at low volume on my iPhone!) C has a somewhat hollow overall feel. Ah... this feels a little familiar to me. It's the same kind of feeling you could feel in vst, etc. D is weird. Haha sorry.😆
I preferred C > A > B > D QC models always seem to have a bit more low mid, and some folks like that more, so I can't fault it. Just a different flavor to what I'm used to.
@dv8322 Yep, differences in the gains/tone it was stunning I thought. Really. Some can hear it, while others can't. We all have a different pair of eyeglasses holders...
Great tutorial and demo videos! Fortunately Fender TMP's JCM 800 has been updated since this video, making this comparison obsolete. I wish you'd do more TMP related videos, I love your work here.
Great as always Leon. To be honest I’m not a digital modelers guy. I build my own guitars, tube amps and pedals. I tried a lot of digital stuff few years ago and always feel there is something missing when comparing to the tube amps and analog pedals. I know the digital processors have gotten better but still I’ve tried some of the new ones and feel the same way but a little less. That said I want to say I didn’t know any of the menu screens you showed so, I still don’t know which is which. I know I can hear the differences among all and the first three were very close indeed. However I prefer C. I could pick up in the video that D was Fender and believe that needs to be fixed. Sounded muffled and didn’t respond well to the guitar vol. Blessings!!
On the 1st set B and C sounded really equal, A slightly Different, and D completely off against the other 3. I listened with the ATH 50X headphones. Great video as usual. Thanks mate :)
Awesome video! The comparison was very well done and all the modellers except the Tone Master sounds great and very similar to each other. Love all your videos, but as a QC owner I am extra happy to see it being featured!
I listened to this on some decent headphones. A) had the tightest low end, on that low note palm mute, it had the least flub to the sound, not by a whole lot, but I listened to that first loop a couple times before the reveal and noticed it after the first listen through the loop. The flub got slightly more pronounced to B, then to C… D isn’t in the same ballpark really. I have been a Neural DSP plug-ins and Fractal AX8 user. I just ordered an Axe Fx 3 this week and it’ll be delivered next week. So I was happy to hear this and know that I could not have made a bad choice really between QC and AF3. And since I’m building my dream studio this year, I picked the piece of kit with the most depth.
Ok I am 2 minutes into the video and here is my take Listening with headphones on. I don’t own any of these modellers but here are my guesses from what I have heard over the last few years on RU-vid. Also the fender master pro I have heard much of at all so that will be a guess. A - good tight ( Axe fx) B - bit muffled ( Fender tone master ) c - fizzy slightly ( Helix) D - scoped and bassy ( QC) I could be completely wrong. 😊
How did I do? I think I got the Axe Fx and Line 6 helix correct. I mixed up the Fender and QC. Likely as I haven’t heard much of the fender modeller. I can always tell a helix as it has that fizzy high end. Not sure what it is but is a helix thing Not bad but I can tell it is there.
On the initial play-through, I thought A and C sounded the most like an 800....with B close behind, but not sure which modelers they were. Clip D definitely sounded the least 800-ish, so I knew that was the Fender based on your previous demo. Fender has decent unit in the Tonemaster, but they definitely need to fix a few things. Learning clip C was the Helix kinda shocked me! I figured it was the Quad! So I will now be updating my HX Stomp and diving into that 2203! Thanks for the great comparison, Leon!! 🤘🤘
Axe FX , Helix and Quand Cortex are amazing. Tone master just a step down, but great sounding too. I consider them INSTRUMENTS that bring you the result you're looking for. Just choose the one that make you feel comfortable and enjoy!
So glad you did this vid. These comparisons are my faves. I would’ve loved to hear them with everything on “5 or 7” …order identically to see which ones were brighter/darker. I also agree that the guitar volume knob test is key. Did they all “feel” the same ? 🤘🏼
I picked Fractal and Helix as my favorites in the blind test. Quad cortex took the third place and I just knew D was the Tone Master Pro lol. I'm not a huge fan of QC although I gig exclusively with it. The damn form factor is too good and works as a multipurpose device for me, but I have a serious hard on for Fractal. I hope next generation Fractal floor board will have touch screen and a form factor similar to Tone Master Pro. And an XLR input...
Cool video...thx for taking the time to do this. Its tuff for us who dont know what the interfaces are to match whats on the screen tho. I guessed the first was the axefx due to the horizontal orientation, but i was lost with the rest....
Having owned a Mustang amp (pretty decent Blackface and Tweed tones), Fender is very slow or no-go when it comes to improving or supporting their digital stuff. Hope they’re more motivated these days.
I've used a Mustang a few times as a backline amp at some remote mine sites here and they're pretty solid. I really hope the TMP continues to evolve and does so rapidly.
@@LeonTodd - I hope so too… both Fractal and L6 have set the standard for product development and customer support in the digital modeling world. All other companies need to realize that that level of support is not “nice” but critical. Hope Fender gets it this time.
As a TMP and JCM800 player... Interesting. I've been using a 2204 for over 10 years and recently got the Tone Master Pro. I really love the TMP and it has become my main live rig... But I much prefer using the Plexi model on it. I did try the Helix's new 2203 before selling my Stomp and it was in fact very good. So this confirms that the TMP's 800 just isn't "there". To be fair, the Helix's wasn't until very recently either.
Yeah the beauty of all this stuff, as L6 recently showed, is that it can be sorted. The first video I did with this I liked the plexi but the 800 felt off so it was kinda nice to confirm my initial reaction here.
I mean the TMP isn't "there" as setup here. You very well may find a JCM800 sound that you love with a different EQ setting, different cut values applied, different volume levels, etc. That's what all these shootout videos miss, is you may just not like a sound with certain settings, but all of these modelers are so tweakable in terms of tone
Awesome comparison! Leon, I would like to hear your toughts about difference in feel between the model on the Axe FX vs the Helix one... do they feel similar? I own the HX Stomp and I'm very impressed with this 2203 model...
Leon, I have to say, that you are in fact the expert in the digital amp modelling world and beyond. Thanks for sharing and well done mate or as they tend to say "good on you mate" in your own language.
Can you post your DI track so we can compare them to other models? IMO the AxeFX cleans up better and has that realistic built in compression that's trying to keep the high end brightness right in your face, other models sort of get duller and don't make the transients pop. Do you have a treble bleed installed?
C was my favorite during the blind test. D sounded kinda weird. A and B sounded almost identical. Okay. Interesting. After seeing the results, I'm a little surprised I liked the Helix the best. Although, I did hear they knocked it out of the park. The Axe and the QC sounding similar isn't too shocking. The letdown is the TMP, unfortunately.
For most of the test, the Axe and QC were damn close, and I could only barely hear a tiny difference in the Helix. Opening A,B,C, D test, couldn't really tell. I do think the Axe sounded best, and seemed to respond best on the cleanup test. That's the only place I think the Helix was noticeable (got a little more 2D). Yea, the Fender was just not good across the board.
The settings on the TMP tell the whole story. It's fine to do drastic EQ moves when needed but all the other ones are pretty close to "everything at noon-ish", which is a decent tone with an actual 800. Those TMP settings make no sense at all, something is wrong there.
It's worth mentioning that the TMP's speaker impedance curve models are part of the cab/IR block, while the Helix, QC, and Axe FX all include them as part of the amp block. So if you aren't use the Fender's built-in IR block for the IR it's not going to be as authentic sounding as it can be, because there's nothing in the signal chain modeling the interaction between the amp and speaker cab. So unfortunately it's not really a fair test in this specific use-case; it would be better for comparison's sake to use the built-in IR loaders on each unit.
Agree on AxeFx, QC, and Helix being great, but I think I slightly preferred the Axe on the volume roll-down test. As a long time Helix user who switched to Fractal because Helix's Marshalls weren't as good, I think they're finally on to something and hopefully they will continue improving the Marshalls. I still don't think it cleaned up quite as realistically as the Fractal though.
My knee jerk favorites in cans were A and C. The Neural almost sounds more like the mid 80s two channel Marshall and the tone Master sounds like an 11 rack.
I think this kind of test would be better with a real JCM 800 in the mix too. It's one thing to compare the modellers but without comparing them to an actual amp means the result is purely a matter taste.
Super cool shootout, Leon. Happy to report I got them all correct. The Fender was the easiest to spot for sure. Cliff still reigns supreme to my ears at least. I thought the timing of the latest Fractal update with the 2203 and the Nobel was curious since those were both included in the latest Helix firmware which was released first. Got any insider knowledge about those overlaps? 😉
Honestly it seems like we've reached the "cork sniffing" era - any of these were completely usable (yeah, the Fender just a tad off.) Helix guy myself, but full props to all the boxes - differences so slight that you'd be hard pressed to discern in any but a solo setting.
Enjoyed the comparison. There's something wonky going on with the TMP. I just spent a little time dialing in the Brit 2203 on my HX Stomp and it sounds spectacular with my single bridge humbucker Strat. I used only 3 Blocks: Brit 2203 Amp, 4x12 Cali V30 Cab with 47 Cond FET Mic, and Double Tank Reverb. And as if by some magic, it sounds almost identical to what could be my favorite Amp on RU-vid, Euge Valovirta's "Bad Boy." He has several videos dedicated to that particular Amp, it is so good. This has become one of my favorite Amps on Helix. It responds wonderfully to both the Volume and Tone knobs. I think Line 6 may have used a new way to model the Amp, it sounds so outstanding!
Just stopped at the blind test, the could thing is, they all sound about the same ha. So it doesn't matter what you get. But I preferred the extra bass from D. Now I've watched the video, I understand how much you had to do to make it sound similar. I just like the general added bass anyway. Your preference probably sits better within the mix of a live band though. The best overall was the Axe FX as usual and you can always dial more low end or gain if you want.
I would be inclined to believe that 800 on the tonemaster might be bugged or something in the firmware isnt letting the EQ moves be heard like they should.
The best analog JCM 800 pedal is the PedalPalFX PAL 800 god V.4. When substituting the pedal for the amps Pre the difference is nano. I saw a video with a guy who owns a JCM stack do this and he was convinced you would be crazy to want to buy the amp. I run mine thru an old JMP 50 set to just just shy of crunch and amp 100% happy.
I heard it mentioned that a Fender engineer said their JCM800 was modeled from a vintage one. Not sure if that's entirely true or not, just something I saw someone mention. Hopefully they are able to tweak it to sound a bit better / more like the JCM800 tone we all know and love!
Fender could improve their communication around this at the very least. For example Fractal have stated the model/year and other details (transformers, bright cap values etc) for their model. "It's a vintage one" does a disservice to the fans of these amps who are clued up about them.
Well done Leon. This myth that “no two jcm800’s sound alike” is so overblown and become more all encompassing as time goes on. The similarity of the AxeFX, Helix, and QC is the amount of difference you’d expect, and I’d imagine those differences are down to the loads Line 6 and Neural DSP used in their development process. You’re very polite about how you worded the TMP, but I’m not going to hold back - it sounds bad, wrong and there is something clearly wrong with how they are modelling amps. It is not like the Helix 2204 where they accurately modelled an amp with no bright cap, there is an issue with how they approach amp modelling in general.
Definitely. There's not a bunch of magical unicorn amps out there, there's amps built to spec with component tolerances that may be closer or further. Apparently the TMP uses a static EQ for the impedance modelling in the cab block rather than the amp block which is just weird these days IMO
@@LeonToddApologies if I missed it, but did you load your IR into the unit? or did you run all modellers into an external IR loader? Curious if the SIC that the TMP applies helps much
Nice! Certainly one thing to match units, another to recognize difference in adjustability. Bugs aside, the latter generally belies lack of depth in modeling... Is Fender claiming component level modeling?
I spent a bit of time measuring the frequency response and trying to get it as close as the others. hence the extreme EQ. With the guiytar volume cranked up it was pretty good to play!
Given the fact that the sound is in the speaker, it's a moot point to test amp emulations... In the real world there will be differences between to JCM800s and two Celestions. So which combination are we supposed to emulate. The only thing a player should care about if they can dial the tone they like.
I actually like C most of all. A and B seemed to have lower volume whereas C seemed to sit nicely. D definitely did sound different with a bit of a bump in the low end - like a Kemper and didn't clean up well. I guess Helix really, really nailed that tone with the newest update. Helix takes a slight lead over the TMP at this minute. Still waiting to see what Fender has for us before Christmas before I pull the trigger.
The axe-fx and the quad both use Analog Devices DSP chips. The exact same ones. Not sure what the Stomp uses. Maybe it uses the same ones, and the fender went down a different path. hence the inability to match up. Edit: I checeked and Helix also use ADI Sharc DSP. but what you said about the fender impedance curve prob is the issue On the blind test A and B were the best for me, both very similar. C seemed to lose something. Didn't have the same chug and highs a little less smooth. And D was a different sound as you said. I actually suspected it was fender after watching your initial review and hearing how the Marshall models didn't seem quite right.
The Axe-Fx III uses TI chips and the FM9/Fm3 use the Analog devices units and the same model on each unit matches up really well, so the chips used aren't important - the modeling code is.
This is the third amp in the Tone Master that doesn't act anything like the real amp or any other models (the others being the EVH 5150 and the Mesa Mark II) I was so hyped for this when it was announced but there is no way I will buy now. So disappointing
