Nick Jackson has more 4*+ rated matches by Dave Meltzer than legends like Kurt Angle, Dynamite Kid, Mitsuharu Misawa, Jumbo Tsuruta, Hiroshi Tanahashi, Terry Funk, Jerry Lawler and Bret Hart. Let that sink in.
@@travisheckel5576 It's unfortunate too, because as Jim has said before, purely as a journalist, Dave is one of the best. He just can't help himself from dropping trou and dumping all over his credibility and integrity by being a (maybe paid) pr department for these indie joke wrestlers.
Meltzer is starting to sound more and more like a videogame journalist, you have to be a complete tool to take their scores seriously because their bias is outrageous. EDIT: And he never gave a 5-star rating to Angle, he should be ignored anyway.
Yeah I’m top of the angle stuff to knock rock and Austin in Houston when that should’ve been 5 stars but will give a random G1 match with omega a five star rating is laughable
As someone who honestly can't tell what "good" wrestling is meant to be for the most part, Kurt Angle was definitely someone I thought was fantastic. Same with guys like AJ Styles and Shawn Michaels. But while I don't have my own rating system since I just enjoy a lot of wrestling as long as it's not too stagey, I would merit the quality not just on technical prowess but entertainment as well. Also I'm still confused what fans of Omega see in his "storytelling" in matches. They just feel like a random series of moves and bizarre shifts in characterization. Heck, Miz and Morrison trying to steal Otis' MITB the last few weeks has more storytelling in their matches than any of Kenny's and those are comic relief segments.
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Go watch a Rockers match from 88. They look way better than the Young Bucks in every way. The way they move, their punches, fluidity of the tandem offense, athleticism, psychology , ect. The bucks get graded on a curve because they are Dave’s friends plain and simple. And I don’t hate the bucks. I like their NJPW stuff better than the aew stuff, but I don’t hate them.
Just my opinion, but I think that's a big reason why many of the people who like that style of wrestling so much do so. Whatever else it might be missing, it often features some truly amazing feats of raw athleticism so a lot of people judge it as "great" just based on that.
Tim F Yes. It doesn’t matter if the match makes sense Kayfabe-wise, or if there is any story telling or selling. All that matters is the athleticism of the spots and moves. That’s why Dave will give some random G1 match or dynamite tv match 5 stars even when it looks like 5 other matches on the card.
Dylan Smith yeah Meltzer seems to disregard story and psychology, perhaps the two most important aspects that separate wrestling from sports, and seems to grade just on the moves and athleticism. But there’s so much talent involved in telling a story and being convincing and getting people to invest in the match beyond pulling off the coolest move. It actually amazes me that Meltzer was considered a serious wrestling journalist all these years due to this monumental flaw in his grading - perhaps he was one of the first and one of the most prominent wrestling journalists early on so people treat him like a Roger Ebert type. He grades like he’s watching Olympic figure skating.
Well a couple reasons really: One being that as far as being an insider, getting backstage info and being an actual journalist and not a critic, he is not one of, but *the* best. Two being that, as far as being a historian, even if his perspective on history may have become skewed, his knowledge and memory for wrestling history is unparalelled. The third and final simply being that, despite the fans like myself and I assume you as well who prefer real wrestling over the circus trapeze act parading as wrestling in AEW having little or no regard for his star ratings anymore, the AEW faithful take his word as gospel because he tells them what they want to hear.
@kingofkings69ner Well yeah he was and he isn't anymore, cause he got fired from every promotion he ever worked with due to either using racists slurs or being a pain in the ass to work with, due to his "my way or the highway" attitude. Also other then FTR I don't know any current day wrestlers that he is on good terms with on a personal level.
@@Biggie2829 I woulda liked to have seen it get another 5 minutes or so since it was WHC match, but they made it work. Like all of Rey, jr & Kurt's matches against each other, just no wasted movement & everything means something.
Today's wrestling is more choreographed than synchronized swimming. Apparently that's what Dave likes (that and having a shitty tag team finisher named after him) and he only became a superfan in the last 10 years despite covering wrestling for much longer.
My problem is the word choreographed which infers it tells a story or makes sense-AEW looks like a three year old throwing around action figures atleast to me.
RVD, even though brief, was considered to be the best wrestler around the world when he had that TV title. But forget RVD, Meltz never gave KURT FRICKIN ANGLE 5 stars in his matches EVER. So stupid, he was once a revered journalist, now he is the shits.
"realism" isn't necessarily his criteria though. In general, I think that's what a lot of people miss as far as why some people like this style of wrestling. They're not necessarily looking to watch a realistic simulated fight as long as they get an exhibition of breathtaking moves and crazy bumps.
I just don't get the Bucks. I used to think I did when I saw 3 or 4 of their matches in Japan cause I thought "Wow, all those spots. That was exciting." Then I realized they do that *every match* and I just can't wrap my head around it. It gets boring. Every one of their matches starts feeling the same. Just them running through the same checklist of high spots, with maybe something new and excessively dangerous, choreographed, fake looking and stupid thrown in every now and then. No selling, no psychology, no nothing. Just spot spot spot spot spot. There isn't a single moment from any match of theirs I have ever seen that stuck with me. The thoughtnof Dave giving the most 4+ stars to them isn't all that shocking because of how taken he is, catering and pandering to all these indie goofs, I haven't taken him seriously with any match review for years, but it is fucking stupid all the same.
I saw the bucks live in Detroit may 2018. Roh war of the worlds. Up until that point I was a huge fan of BTE on youtube. I was so excited to see the bucks in person and watch one of their matches. When I was watching their match, I felt a huge sense of "this shit is so scripted". Every spot timed perfectly. I was bored. I didn't get it. Flips. Super kicks. Zzzzzzz. Since then I stopped watching BTE and avoided everything bucks. I like action figures but I'm okay with missing out on buying their toys.
@@mynameiskyleabent Absolutely, that is more less the exact course I went on. Saw the odd match from Japan and though these absurd, perfectly timed spotfests must be the blowoff to some huge storyline, a big brawl to finish some heated feud, but suddenly AEW comes around and they are easier to find footage of and it turms out it was just business as usual and absolutely killed me on them once I saw through.
There's a silver lining here: I finally know that Nick Jackson is the Balding Buck. I wasn't sure if he was that or Road Warrior Buck because they're so devoid of character/personality that I can't tell them apart
It's blatantly obvious, really. Just compare his AEW star ratings to his WWE star ratings and you see 2 extra stars across the board. Either he's literally being paid off or otherwise compromised because he wants to make his friends happy, but either way, as a critic Dave these days is a useless, corrupt hack.
Aretak He praises aew and it’s other wrestlers by association. Cody, Omega, and the middle aged bucks are the ones he’s been palling around with for years now. He’s given them these ridiculous ratings in exchange for getting to play with the “cool” kids. His life long dream of actually being in the business came true
I don't know that it needs to be a conspiracy theory. As much as some people don't like to admit it, some fans do legitimately like this stuff and Dave happens to be one of them. That said, I think Bryan probably does have a point in that he rates some of these matches like he saw them on a show from years ago.
Meltzer has lost his mind. He's either medicated or in need of medication. Absolutely ridiculous... He's losing all his credibility week by week. It's sad...
"Casual fans could book a card better than the uber-marks!" It's sad but true. I was privileged to come into the fandom via a board aptly named "the Idiot Free Pro Wrestling Board" after saying I was watching a bunch of wrestling on Tekken Zaibatsu and was looking to expand my horizons now that I didn't have my parents giving me grief when I tried to "watch that crap." From there I learned about booking, match pacing, what works and what doesn't work, and WHY it works rather than just how. We had an eFed was a decent mix of serious and more humorous CAWs and discussions on their place on the card along with possibilities of future feuds up or down it were pretty intense. We also had an eFed with all existing guys: we had Big Show, Sabu, and HHH in a three-way feud for the big title, Jericho and Scott as part of the upper midcard act, Mike Knox (this was 2006-7, before he was repackaged as the hairy bruiser he later became and got over as) as a monster heel and Tony Marmaluke as an underdog lower card face. There was a clear vision on why those guys at the time where in the spots they were in, HHH the chiseled heel who constantly undermined "the office" when they wanted to book clean matches, Sabu as a madman whose violence made up for his size disadvantage, and Big Show the giant who just wanted to wrestle with no strings attached. We remembered what made us fans, and it wasn't MOVES IN A MATCH. We frequently used this particular phrase a LOT when we would peek at some of the more absurd stunt shows like the Ultimate X matches where they climbed on a jungle gym en route to a win.
For full character and in-ring work, I rate Randy Savage as one of the undeniable best ever. Savage v Steamboat is still one of the greatest of all time, Savage vs Flair (pick one) were always intense and believable, Savage even got an amazing match out of Warrior at WM-VII. All, save his final run in WCW (the Madness era) were quality.
I'm sorry, but objectively speaking, Bret Hart had significantly more 4+ star matches than anybody alive today. He was believable, technically sound and compelling every time he stepped into the ring. Rarely, if ever needed to go to the top rope to have a fantastic match. Nick Jackson couldn't have a believable or compelling match if he was in the ring with prime Kurt Angle holding a gun to Nick's head. Gymnastics=\=Wrestling.
I appreciate Jim’s reactions to each topic/segment. What we all need is a live reaction of Jim watching the match and his initial reactions as it is happening.
Meltzer is a huge NJPW fan. He has always gave them a lot 4-5 star matches. Since Kenny, young bucks, etc worked there and got over, he will give them 3-5 star matches just because tje worked for NJPW.
Tom Magee displayed some of the most amazing athleticism and flips in wrestling history. More impressive than the Young Bucks as he was bigger with muscles too. Yet no one said anything good about his matches except the Bret Hart one.
Tom Magee had 5 matches total only one was on live television, kind of weird to bring up, maybe it would have been a 5 Star match if anyone had actually seen it outside of who was lucky enough to be in crowd that day ignoring all Japan wrestling
Im really glad this person brought this up. These indie smarks, lap up what Uncle Dave does that make a finisher using his name. Dave wanting to be one of the boys hypes them up. They become VPs of a new company, and Dave hypes them to help them grow. Its like they put on a show only for Dave, so he can smile and clap and write about how great that show was. Just insane. I think Jims original concept with the star ratings was much MORE important. How did the FANS react that should get the ratings, not degree of difficulty like an olympic judge. At least they have rules and credentials on how to rate a performance, instead of one dudes opinion that likes to see high spot flips, big moves, kickouts, dives, etc. "We're gonna make the greatest match ever. But how?!" "I know! Lets do 40 false finishes and kick out of all of our finishers to devalue them". "Great idea!"
meltzer has absolutely lost his Mind.I agree to Cornette.You mentioned a few Great Classics and this Matches are still Great Classics to this Day.To name a few myself. Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold Steve Austin Submission Match Wrestlemania 13 Both Matches between Curt Henning Mr. Perfect vs. Bret Hart one at Summerslam 1991 i think and one Match at the King of the Ring 1993 Summerslam 1992 Bret Hart vs. The British Bulldog Undertaker vs. Mankind/Mick Foley Hell in a Cell at King of the Ring 1998 Edge vs. Mick Foley at Wrestlemania 22 Macho Man Randy Savage vs. Ricky the Dragon Steamboat at Wrestlemania 3 and i can go on and on and on.
Being a mark is the not the same as being a fan. I am a fan of actual wrestling. The moves, the promos and even to an extent the gimmicks depending of how much sense they make. A mark is someone that will cling to one promotion or wrestler and won't take any criticism of said promotion or wrestler.
Undertaker has more layers of storytelling on his entrance. I cannot remember the last time Undertaker are doing the entrance first, he always come after someone else. His opponent always have the face of someone who are waiting to get their name called at the principal office whenever Undertaker are doing his entrance.
Who was number 1 before Nick? Benoit? I remember searching ProFightDB and Benoit had about 71 matches with 4 or more stars. The same site says that Nick now has 76 matches with that status.
Is it ok to love listening to Jim Cornette, but hate wrestling?
4 года назад
Just relistened to the April 25, 2019 episode of the Experience where he interviews Meltzer. Interesting to hear him then compared to now. Meltzer hadn't fully joined the AEW cult yet.
One of the only modern WWE matches (excluding NXT) to get 5* is Punk vs Cena... And rightfully so. Are we seriously supposed to believe that Balding Buck can put on matches that rival the magic Punk & Cena created every time they stepped in the ring??? I think not good sir.
Before Meltzer/Corny heat, Corny would say that Meltzer’s star ratings are the way we get to know how good a match is. No one can debate it. If he gave it a 5 star its a classic. Now, he’s just contradicting everything he just said!
Had great hope for aEW from the outset, I enjoyed heel Jericho. And him assembling his faction. However. The clown show antics. And every match trying to top the previous match. Wore on me as it became A nonstop endless monotony of gymnastics with zero story, making zero sense. Jim is 100% correct. This stuff has become unwatchable. I haven't watched in months. It is boring and nonsense. Fact is, I find it more entertaining to listen to Jim talk about it than to watch it, That is all you need to know.
Tiger Mask Dynamite Kid matches were spot fests but there was a reason for everything they did. This led to this,that led to that,everything meant something. Not just flippy moves over and over no rhyme or reason.
I'm a big Young Bucks fan, but I have to agree on this one. Not all of their matches are worth 4+ stars. Of course you got your classics like their match against the Lucha Bros, but most of their other tag matches are average at best. Not really four stars really. I think there are a bunch of things that are wrong with pro wrestling right now and not only is Meltzer one of them, but to some extent, Cornette is too.
I think Bryan is correct in that a lot of these ratings reflect the raw athleticism on display rather than anything else. Yes, a lot of modern matches may just be an "exhibition of stuff", but let's be honest, whether you like it or you don't, a lot of that "stuff" takes a great deal of physical athletic talent in order to execute. The Young Bucks may be gymnasts, but if that's the only thing you're judging them on, they're pretty great ones.
Which would be fine if they were performing as gymnasts in a gymnastics meetup on ESPN or the Olympic Channel or wherever else gymnastics would be on, but they're lying in everyone's faces by calling what they do "wrestling."
