I had a sense (or hope) that there was something more substantial that I could hear from Joey Lott than I was hearing in this interview. So I watched some of his you tube videos and confirmed that yes, there is indeed something "to sink your teeth into." The interview is not a good vehicle for everyone, and there is no "fault" in this phenomena. We all have our unique best mode of communicating. Some very good writers are terrible interviewees, for example. So if anyone felt some resonance here, maybe explore Joey in other venues?
At 1:18:58 Rick says that he does not perceive the computer screen as consciousness. But what Joey is suggesting is that when you completely let go, the form of computer screen is consciousness itself. There is no need to go in to the realm of experience of consciousness to know that, which is actually separation or witness state in which most TM people are in. Very similar to Sal's message and definitely useful for people suffering from mental illnesses like OCD, PTSD etc.
+Mary Gwen Dungan Interesting because it's a very different interview than many of the others and Rick does a nice job of letting the interviewee express his individual perspective on these elusive issues. I also think it's interesting what Joey says about spiritual teachings and how they can separate or create false expectations for people by fostering the belief that you must behave in a certain way or be a certain kind of person in order to obtain 'enlightenment'. Human nature is so powefully inclined to follow a leader, especially if it's tagged to the belief that we can be free of our neurosis. If Jesus were here today he'd probably be hanging out with reformed meth heads and greedy corporate executives, not the many spiritual teachers we rever so fervently.
This interview just really doesn't find its groove. Too much trepidation about taking a stand, making a statement or having an opinion. And too much worry about how teachers teach. A teacher offers what he or she can, and it's up to the seeker to discern whether it's helpful or not. No need for a lot of angst around this issue, in my view.
I enjoyed this conversation. I think there was a quality in the exchange of views on seeking, which didn't leave me with a sense that either party was unwholesomely entrenched or unwilling to budge on their outlook. I appreciated both Rick and Joey's openness in this respect, at the same time as seeing a willingness to challenge where needed. Reading Joey's material and taking in some of his conversations with others proved to be something of a game-changer for me (that's the narrative anyway), through a subtle nudge towards asking myself the question; "What is it you're actually striving for?" Once the cat was out of the bag (so to speak), it was as if I'd granted myself permission to put down a heavy load that I had long suspected was unnecessary to be lugging about. Quite simply, a relief, and then, just ordinary life, with its regular ups and downs, delights and disasters; unremarkably delicious.
+thomas seven Yes, perhaps no changed minds, it seemed more of a friendly agreement to agree to disagree ("I can see how you see it that way but that's not the way I see it and that's okay..."), whilst perhaps also accommodating some common grounds for understanding. Have you seen the ordinary conversations with Joey, Luis, Fish and friends? They might be more in the spirit of what you fancy, or not (I think they're great fun, and somewhat invigorating to drop in on).
*A -1.0 on a -3.0 to +3.0 scale.* Disclaimers at the end of the comment. *I have always been wanting to meet Tom Bombadil !* *Synposis:* Decidedly *_before_* enlightenment: chop wood, carry water, and that's the end of it. You are being invited to a real pre-/trans-fallacy. Don't get me wrong: I like the guy and he'd be a blast to hang out with. He is also not committing a direct lie or pretending to be what he is not. Indeed, he is far too intelligent for that and the deception lies in his honesty while riding on a structural similarity to something completely different and relying on the proclivity for self-deception among the seekers. But it is also possible (if unlikely) that he genuinely believes that he knows how to end the search for good. Let's take it slowly: Here we have someone who - had really immature ideas about and motives for the spiritual path - also otherwise shows a severe lack of understanding of the paths he was dabbling with on his own - chose a method that is probably not suitable for anyone with great discursive intelligence - which compounded to his obsessive proclivities - reached a burn out - gave that all up in some sort of non-descript skepticism and acceptance of whatever he really is. *That is great **_as a therapy_* for the adolescent mindset that he describes with which he engaged in spirituality in the first place. Nothing better could happen to anyone with such an attitude than complete failure and burnout. In fact, I believe this regularly happens _on the beginning stages of a real path for everyone_ to a certain degree because all seekers are on the path for the wrong reasons to some degree. No wonder he feels a little better since giving all that up. Yet I ask you: *what's he doing at batgap instead of at Richard Dawkins' fanclub or at a psychotherapy conference ?* And it is for the reason that this remains unclear and because of the suggestive similarity to _"chop wood, carry water"_ *after* enlightenment that this interview gets a bad rating. Now certainly, acceptance, surrender and equanimity is exactly the path, and if you want to boil meaningful meditation (IMO not a westerner repeating mantras of deities he doesn't believe in) down to what it really is, it is exactly the technology of enhancing relaxed equanimity and wisdom vis a vis the ups and downs of existence. However, vis a vis *all* ups and downs, not just those middle class people are familiar with. *To simply accept your life as it is in the superficial, middle class, skeptical sense is **_not_** going to do the job, and this needs pointing out !!!* It wasn't pointed out. *As long as the mind habitually identifies with the empirical person, in particular the body, as "I", there is no way that you are going to retain the equanimity towards existencial suffering in the long run necessary to actually end your suffering. And to suggest by structural similarity of what you are saying with the post-enlightenment "ordinary mind" of Zen or Mahamudra that this might be the same thing is severely misleading the people. It's easy to say from afar that burning alive is "OK" and that not being able to accept watching your own kids being raped and maimed it is also "OK". But saying "OK" is **_not_** liberation from suffering.* It would be very good advice for strung out obsessive people as ordinary therapy. It is also great advice to people on a bad trip because (and I suspect that this is really where his advice comes from) if you are tripping on psychedelics in a bad way, it is exactly this type of advice which will allow you to get into calmer waters. *But to intentionally sound like a zen master without satori first is a severe disservice to your listeners. I realize he is not claiming satori and rejecting followers and skype conferences, he is almost brutally honest which makes the mentioned deception all the more dangerous because it gathers more credibility among the naive. But the thing is, if I had to bet my head on it, I really do not think he has tasted the ground of his being, and very indicative of that is the passage around **1:28:00**.* That is what did it for me. Why would he need skype sessions ? He has admittedly been (see beginning) living off book sales and two kids to take care of. A boost of one's book sales with a long term credibility, all the while having the good conscience of never having claimed anything, could do the job. For the rest of his life in fact. _About the rating: anything below and including 0 means by and large a waste of time, and anything below 0 is not only worthless but damaging to the world. For comparison, on that scale, Francis Bennett would be a +2 or more and Harri Aalto would be roughly a tentative +2 to +2.5. Not coming up with original, independent cosmological insights bans any interviewee from > 2.0 ratings as a matter of principle._ *General Disclaimer:* _the rating pertains to an interview, not to the interviewee_. If the rating is high it means merely and exclusively that I consider the interview to be of high value relative to the stated purpose of the channel, and that it is therefore no waste of time to listen to the interview. It would _not_ imply that whatever the interviewee speaks is the truth (as if I was the arbiter over that) or that you should follow him/her or accept whatever that person offers. _That is particularly in need of emphasis if that would be an expensive enterprise_ !
+Soteriologe Agree with you in many respects though I would state even stronger Joey's likability and what a nice chap he would be to hang out with. His "position" is hardly new as you point out and would be very much in line with Richard Dawkins and much psychotherapy . I can fully identify with the idea that "this is it" and have at many times prided myself on thinking I had come to some massively deep insight that this was the final answer. But soon (nowadays within a matter of seconds) its seen that this too is simply a thought which, if held on to, becomes a belief system itself. Once one latches onto a belief system one creates a whole body of thought around it to defend it. Joey would have done far better to have gone into anapana (mindfulness of breathing) type practice(not breathing exercises) which actually brings out and makes one's feelings clearer to oneself. Through anapana, if one does it in the right spirit, one's habitual thought patterns come up and are gradually seen for that they are. If one had the position that "this is it" one might be tempted to believe in the reality of one's thoughts. Anapana, with practice shows one the temporary nature of one's thoughts. But where each of us is at is all part of this whole process and seeing into truth in all likelihood is unavoidably a very slow process that cannot be rushed. So best to be patient with ourselves and others.
Joey: I hear you for what it's worth. No one could convince me to stop trying. Who knows why I stopped. You yourself don't even claim to know. And I share with you a disdain for teachers that claim to know what it was that was the "cause" of their "shift." Recently, this is my affirmation: "However you are is perfect! You couldn’t possibly be anything other than exactly as you are. We spend our time and money, on this therapy, on that workshop, only to arrive at the conclusion that we are OK. In fact, there was never anything wrong with you in the first place. There is nothing you must do in order to be good. You ARE good. There is nothing you need to accomplish to be valuable. You ARE valuable. There is no way you need to be in order to be loved. You ARE LOVE."
+David Watermeyer Absolutely not. I feel often alone, desperate, overwhelmed, and unloved, as well as often enthusiastic, joyous, content and loved. I seem to have preference for the latter though. Therein lies my suffering: in the notion that things should ever be any other way that they are.
There is so often the idea that the modern spiritual scene and teachers are telling us that we need to change or remove something or do something in order to get something or to relieve uncertainty and angst. And there is a reaction against this and Joey has this reaction. But amusingly now the modern spiritual scene has done an about turn and is not saying this at all, rather it is saying there is nothing to do, etc. And so amusingly now there is also a reaction against these people because it often doesn't work any better than the 'traditional' method. We so easily go from one extreme to the other and then back again.
+Aware Alive ..Reactions aside he seems to be espousing supposedly the oldest teaching in the book. This is that the way things are and the way we are is it, it is complete relief, and everything is already totally resolved and perfected. That the whole problem all along has been the belief that something is wrong and needs to be changed. And so the meth user doesn't need to give it up etc because using meth is just as much it as meditating.
+Aware Alive ..Easy to say but not so easy to do when the deeply ingrained habit is to look for solutions. For most people just hearing that everything is it is not enough. To try and say it is is a disservice.
+Aware Alive ..The problem with the meth user is that they are probably using meth as a way of finding relief. If you want to see that meth use is also it then you need to be able to squarely face that in your life which is causing you to escape into meth use. It is impossible to see that the very afflictions that we want to be rid of are total relief if we are using antidotes to escape them.
To purify oneSelf or Awareness that there is no "self" or person idea,is the most beautiful thing to happen to you. If you can realise there is no self or person,then what is left is Pure AWARENESS. one wakes up to that as yourSelf.. And its a real experience,like a bird being let out of a cage, freedom,problem for some is they sometimes return to the cage.......and that cause frustration,but if one is a sincere truth seeker then Grace will intervene and lend a hand. One has to keep on and not give up. Find a teacher that appeals to you and keep in contact,keep the lump of coal in contact with the fire as much as possible. if you remove yourself from the fire, you will never burn the egoic idea to ashes.
I love the interviewees who are free from ideas and will not bend to any proposal or idea by Rick or anyone else. They don't bend, can't be caught, don't have a point where you say: "here he is!" The only point where I "caught" Joey is where he thinks that spiritual teachings that incline to suggest there is somewhere to get is wrong. It may be to him, but just the way Rick stated, for other people, they played the "necessary part" and maybe his "bad" experience played its part as well. No bad, No good, Neti Neti. Great interview and love what Joey was saying. You can't catch freedom you can only be it to experience it, yes it is all it. And a side note, I believe skepticism in the case of Joey was and is helpful for his realizations because it keeps his experience to the here and now, and again maybe, maybe not.... To those who think he didnt say anything important I will just say that you heard what you needed nothing more nothing less...
Carl Hart Use, Use and Addiction / 20 Comments The long subway ride from DC’s airport to Silver Spring was unusually pleasant. It had been about an hour since I had taken a low dose of methamphetamine. It was my 40th birthday-October 30, 2006-and I was headed to a National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA)-sponsored meeting. A friend, who had a prescription for the drug, had given me a couple of pills as a gift, knowing that I was an expert on amphetamines but had never actually taken any myself. I sat on the train feeling alert, mentally stimulated, and euphorically serene. And when the effects had worn off after a few hours, I thought, “that was nice,” worked out, and enjoyed a productive two-day meeting. Well, maybe not enjoyed-it was a NIDA meeting after all. But I didn’t crave the drug or feel the need to take any more. I certainly didn’t engage in any unusual behaviors-hardly the stereotypical picture of a “meth head.” So why is it, then, that the general public has such a radically different view of this drug? Perhaps it has something to do with public “educational” campaigns aimed at discouraging methamphetamine use. These campaigns usually show, in graphically horrifying detail, some poor young person who uses the drug for the first time and then ends up engaging in uncharacteristic acts such as prostitution, stealing from parents, or assaulting strangers for money to buy the drug. At the end of advertisement, emblazoned on the screen, is: “Meth-not even once.” We’ve also seen those infamous “meth mouth” images (extreme tooth decay), wrongly presented as a direct consequence of methamphetamine use. These types of media campaigns neither prevent nor decrease the use of the drug; nor do they provide any real facts about the effects of meth. They succeed only in perpetuating false assumptions. Swayed by this messaging, the public remains almost entirely ignorant of the fact that methamphetamine produces nearly identical effects to those produced by the popular ADHD medication d-amphetamine (dextroamphetamine). You probably know it as Adderall®: a combination of amphetamine and d-amphetamine mixed salts. Yeah, I know. This statement requires some defense. This is not to suggest that people who are currently prescribed Adderall should discontinue its use for fear of inevitable ruinous addiction, but instead that we should view methamphetamine rather more like we view d-amphetamine. Remember that methamphetamine and d-amphetamine are both FDA-approved medications to treat ADHD. In addition, methamphetamine is approved to treat obesity and d-amphetamine to treat narcolepsy. In the interest of full disclosure, I too once believed that methamphetamine was far more dangerous than d-amphetamine, despite the fact that the chemical structure of the two drugs is nearly identical (see figure). In the late 1990s, when I was a PhD student, I was told-and I fully believed-that the addition of the methyl group to methamphetamine made it more lipid-soluble (translation: able to enter the brain more rapidly) and therefore more addictive than d-amphetamine. It wasn’t until several years after graduate school that this belief was shattered by evidence not only from my own research, but also by results from research conducted by other scientists. In our study, we brought 13 men who regularly used methamphetamine into the lab. We gave each of them a hit of methamphetamine, of d-amphetamine, or of placebo on separate days under double-blind conditions. We repeated this many times with each person over several days and multiple doses of each drug. Like d-amphetamine, methamphetamine increased our subjects’ energy and enhanced their ability to focus and concentrate; it also reduced subjective feelings of tiredness and the cognitive disruptions typically brought about by fatigue and/or sleep deprivation. Both drugs increased blood pressure and the rate at which the heart beat. No doubt these are the effects that justify the continued use of d-amphetamine by several nations’ militaries, including our own. And when offered an opportunity to choose either the drugs or varying amounts of money, our subjects chose to take d-amphetamine on a similar number of occasions as they chose to take methamphetamine. These regular methamphetamine users could not distinguish between the two. (It is possible that the methyl group enhances methamphetamine’s lipid-solubility, but this effect appears to be imperceptible to human consumers.) It is also true that the effects of smoking methamphetamine are more intense than those of swallowing a pill containing d-amphetamine. But that increased intensity is due to the route of administration, not the drug itself. Smoking d-amphetamine produces nearly identical intense effects as smoking methamphetamine. The same would be true if the drugs were snorted intranasally. As I left DC and travelled home to New York, I reflected on how I had previously participated in misleading the public by hyping the dangers of methamphetamine. For example, in one of my earlier studies, aimed at documenting the powerfully addictive nature of the drug, I found that when given a choice between taking a small hit of meth (10 mg) or one dollar in cash, methamphetamine users chose the drug about half the time. For me, in 2001, this suggested that the drug was addictive. But what it really showed was my own ignorance and bias. Because, as I found out in a later study, if I had increased the cash amount to as little as five dollars, the users would have taken the money almost all of the time-even though they knew they would have to wait several weeks until the end of the study before getting the cash. All of this should serve as a lesson on how media distortions can influence even scientific knowledge about the consequences of drug use. It took me nearly 20 years and dozens of scientific publications in the area of drug use to recognize my own biases around methamphetamine. I can only hope that you don’t require as much time and scientific activity in order to understand that the Adderall that you or your loved one takes each day is essentially the same drug as meth. And I hope that this knowledge engenders less judgment of people who use meth, and greater empathy. Carl L. Hart is a professor (in psychiatry) at Columbia University. He is also the author of the book High Price: A neuroscientist’s journey of self-discovery that challenges everything you know about drugs and society. You can follow him on Twitter: @drcarlhart
I enjoy life. That is true. I very rarely have gotten sad lately. This too is true. At times, I do get slightly irritated or angry but that too is quite rare and very brief and it doesn't have that much passion or sting. Like a burnt rope that has lost its strength, it no longer binds. I have done, experienced, enjoyed everything that I think I wanted to, desired or was interested or excited about. This too is true. Having experienced and enjoyed everything that I thought was beautiful, enjoyable, interesting and exciting, at times, (when I think about it) life seems to be a greatly interesting movie that I have watched many times before, a candy shop in which I have already tried every candy that caught my fancy. I feel that I have already had more than enough of each and everything that I considered worth having. I feel all my purpose and goals are fulfilled. I feel my desires are all fulfilled and exhausted now. I wake up every morning and realize that I am still alive. I am full of energy. My health is very good. My body is fit and my living conditions are excellent. Yet, I am neither sad nor excited on finding myself alive. I live life as if it is my duty but without any personal passion, emotion, investment or attachment. I know if this day too I might experience incredible as even the things that most people supposedly ignore fill me with immense, incredible joy - things like sunshine, water, sky, sound of birds, touch of the earth, sensation of my own body. If this day too is likely to end up like many others, again, I am likely to end it and sleep feeling incredibly fulfilled, grateful and feeling that I have already lived a full life. Incredibly, if I was to die in my sleep, I feel would die without feeling that I have lost something. Life seems to be ride that seems no longer necessary. I feel that I have experienced, done, had everything that I needed, wanted, desired or was interested in. Now, life seems more like watching the re-runs of a movie full of turns and twists, ups and downs, suspense and thrill except that I have watched it many times before. There is nothing that I am excited about, greatly interested in, eagerly waiting for, missing or looking forward to. I enjoy what is. But, I am not getting attached to any of it. Having experienced all that I thought was interesting, exciting, worth having - sex, women, travel, food, beauty, cars, movies, TV, sports, books, music, family, kids... my sense of enjoyment now has become far simpler. I enjoy looking at sky. I like it when it is foggy. I like it when it is sunny. I like it when it is dark. I like it when there is moonlight. When the sun rays hit the ground, I feel this is the most beautiful scene I have ever seen; then, I remember I have had this same thought many (possibly, thousands) times before, yet, each time it seems new. When the sunlight sparkles on the tree leaves, the water waves, I feel such an immense joy and then I remember, I have been here, seen this and felt this way, many, many times before. I enjoy taking a walk. I enjoy meditation. I enjoy sitting alone by myself. I enjoy watching flowing water, hiking, birds, mountains, grass, trees, flowers, moon. These things don't require much. I don't get attached to them. When it is day I enjoy the clear, blue bright sky*. When it is night I enjoy starry nights. When it is moonlight, I enjoy the moon. When it is spring, I enjoy the flowers, new leaves, in fall, I enjoy pale, colored, old leaves, when the leaves are all gone, I find the barren tree very beautiful. When the sun is shining, it looks beautiful. When the sun is setting, it looks amazing. When the night comes and the stars come, it looks incredible. I live in a very beautiful place and I travel to work on a very beautiful road. When I drive, I often think that these mountains are so beautiful that I couldn't have imagined them any better. I have often thought that I am as happy and as fulfilled as I could possibly be. I must have had this thought hundreds or thousands of times before. At times, I have thought that I am living in a temporary bubble that can burst open anytime. I still feel that way as everything changes. I am surprised that this bubble has lasted this long. Earlier, at times, I had found my work-life lacking. I thought everybody at work treated me extremely affectionately, lovingly, kindly and generously but at times I thought I wasn't able to do enough and thus, I felt guilty. Now, even my work life is very fulfilling. Earlier, my would sometimes complain or quarrel. Now, that happens very rarely and even when it does, that intensity, that drama, that sting is no longer there. It is quite fleeting and it pains don’t last. It seems to leave no impression or residue. Like the raindrops on a hot plate, it seems to disappear as soon as it lands. In one way, my life has become very smooth and fulfilling; at the other end, I am no longer waiting for a "better tomorrow". Today is perfect and I remember having this perfect today many, many times. I no longer fancy a long life, not even a healthy, fit long life. I think 50-55 years is more than enough for the majority humans. I feel my life has already been much more than enough in every way. I have crossed 40 but haven't reached 50 yet. === * (when it is cloudy, I enjoy watching clouds, when it is rainy, I enjoy the rain, when it is windy, I enjoy the wind)
Other than having fulfilled all my desires and purpose, I realized that I don’t even do my own breathing, digestion, nor do I run my immune system or cell division. The earth rotates on its axis, goes around the sun, the sun shines and the days and nights happen - all without needing my directions. Realizing this, I discovered that most of my thoughts, worries, stress, strains and concerns were quite unnecessary if not completely ignorant and stupid. I realized that truly I don’t even run my own life. Realizing this, “helping others” was no longer a big concern for me. I was still ready, willing and eager to share love, resources, attention, energy and whatever else I could share but my sense of “self importance” was no longer there. I realized that people, things, animals, planets, galaxies, universes were fine already with or without me. It wasn’t really up to the guy couldn’t even run his own digestion to truly help, manage or control galaxies and its inhabitants. That which was running the cell division of this very body was able to take care of the planets and galaxies too as well as its inhabitants. Realizing this, allowed me to sleep and die and relax peacefully.
Realizing this, I was no longer overwhelmed by “save the planet”, “save the tigers” or “save USA from the big, bad republicans (or democrats)”. The idea of the great “impending” “doom” no longer frightened me. The predictions “never ever I have been wrong”, “I am certainly right this time” scientists no longer scared me. I thought that which created galaxies, planets, its inhabitants, that which runs the cell division, immune system and the digestion of this very body knew what needs to be done and how it needs to be done and my huffing and puffing was quite unnecessary. It was enough that I could enjoy the blue skies, the clouds, the water, the sun rays. Sometimes, I saw the white smoke rising and I thought it was so beautiful. Then, I remembered, it was supposed to be pollution, a threat to the planet and I wasn’t supposed to be happy about it. Yet, I couldn’t prevent the joy from rising on seeing the white smoke circles rising in the sky. I also realized that if the fate of the planet really rested on someone who couldn’t even control his own breathing, digestion, immune system or cell division, it was already quite a hopeless situation.
I commend his honesty about the past obsessiveness, though it's obvious he still retains a lot of it. The sheer number of references to sugar he makes in one hour for example should be a dead giveaway. Obsessiveness is strong self view - the mind gets stuck on a single idea and admits nothing else. I fear he may have substituted the hunt for enlightenment with another obsession, the hunt for just being. If he just "was", then nothing arises that is of significance. I'd term this an honest look at the life of one seeker on the spiritual path, but I'd hesitate to draw any inference to the larger whole from it. He is still very much hunting for enlightenment, he just doesn't know it.
+Flipper Goose There is no "he" there any longer who could be hunting for anything. The "obsessiveness" you speak of could be "conditioning" and yes it is part of "his' story but perhaps should be viewed as just story and not any current and real issue. He has written several books on the subject and so it seems to be an area he has given a lot of thought to.
Personally I think the accepting teaching is nonsense, but even if it's correct, he himself says that people misinterpreted it, therefor it can be as much dangerous as other teachings, so he himself becomes like the gurus he speaks against.
Lack of gratitude is the original sin. Forgetting that every cell of our body, every cell of our brain, every breath we take, every drop of water, every ray of light is a gift of God and not thanking God for these free gifts on whom our existence depends right in this moment is the original sin. This sin gives rise to a false pride, false sense of ownership and entitlement. From this comes discontent and from that comes anger, greed, resistance, struggle and grief. This original sin creates a thick veil that closes the perception of the God’s grace showering right this moment. It makes the heart so stiff that true joy, humility and gratitude can never enter it. The sin of ungratefulness makes one oblivious to how the God’s grace is taking care of one’s own breathing, digestion, blood flow, and keeps the heart beating even while one is busy finding faults and complaining. The constant ingratitude and ignorance of the God’s grace and gifts showering right this moment and in every moment and the constant discontent, dissatisfaction, faultfinding and complaining expels one from the heaven of gratitude filled with God’s grace to the hell of the self created misery, discontent and constant dissatisfaction. Realizing this very breath, realizing that this air that we breathe and the lungs with one breathe are both free gifts of God pave way to the gratitude. The gratitude makes the perception of God’s grace available again. The perception of grace makes the God’s kingdom visible. The heart that begins perceiving the God’s kingdom starts ascending into heaven.
Even while we sleep, the earth moves around the sun, rotates on its axis, the days and nights happen as do sunrise and sunsets, the grass grows, the cherry blossoms, the apple trees bear fruits and our body breathes and digests food. All this happens while lie in our bed unaware. Even when we were in our mother’s wombs, our hearts beat and the mother’s breasts got milk to feed us. All this happened without us planning, directing and controlling it. Realizing this, we are ready to let go, to take it easy and to let go of all our unnecessary anxiety, stress and worries with each exhale. The God that cleans the carbon dioxide that we exhale into the air that we need is able to carry all our burdens and he has done it day and night; even when we sleep and even before we came into existence. Realizing this we are able to relax. Realizing this, we experience freedom that is always available.
True spirituality is the journey from being the stiff-hearted, bitter complainer full of pride and judgement to the soft-hearted, appreciator full of gratitude and humility. The God’s kingdom becomes visible once we realize that absolutely nothing truly belongs to us. The God’s kingdom becomes visible when we realize that this very body, this very brain is a gift from God. We start our ascent to the heaven with the realization that this very breath right now, this very moment is a gift of God to be revered, worshipped, loved to feel grateful for.
Joey seems a likeable chap but I gave up half way through, maybe I will return to hear the rest. To stop searching for answers is a key to understanding that there is no seeker,there is no person inside, a person is just an IDEA ,mind conditioning. its all pure Awareness that is masquerading as a person. That is the major discovery. I practice TM and have done it for nearly 40 years,it has been the main spiritual practice for me although it is not regarded as such, as its a mental technique. It lead to Non dual teachings for myself which have also been very useful. I have never been attracted to the TM movement though,TM practice is enough and as Rick says too much TM does bring up a whole lot of stress that can be hard to handle ..After a while one realises there is no one there except Awareness. So that is who "we" are, and its a wonderful release from searching. One has no idea of an identity. To be Still as in deep meditation is our real Self,gradually that realisation is carried to the everyday experience, its freedom. There is no one doing anything,no one is living the life,life is just living. Its all quite simple. I believe thats what the Buddha and others discovered ,but it was formulated into a massive heaps of information called religion that has rules and regulations, whereas the awakening process through mediation leads to natural understanding to the virtues, there are no religious rules to follow anymore. The self mind made person IDEA has to go in order to be free of delusion, to be awakened. Which in turn becomes deeper levels of Realisation. I'll come back to Joey later,I'm of the meditate!
+John Smith If all this is true, where is the meditator who meditates, and who is the one who knows you are meditating? I did TM for over 20 years and it wasn't enough so I went beyond and arrived at all this "there is no self" stuff, but who was seeing there was no self? The Spiritual Self, Atman, was seeing this as Shankara pointed out. I still meditate over 2 hours a day, but that just consists of resting in peace. But there is still a personality that observes thought and reads and watches tv; it is just that I no longer identify with it as me and I have no sense of time nor any need of anything and I live in Silence with a still mind, yet there is still the old me sitting there at the same time. People do not stress this enough, this duality; the Higher Self is perfect - the personality is not perfect and never will be and I just accept the reality of it. There is no perfection while you are in form and those who say otherwise are liars. Non-duality only occurs to the Spiritual Self, but sometimes the personality tries to take control of it and owns it and says I am ALONE, I am Isolation - it is all ME. But time reveals that this is not true, there is a you, there is an actor. There is freedom, but it is all in the Higher SELF. And yea - life sucks. Been there. Done that. What's next? Is there anything more?
+Moonsod I'm not a teacher but heres my understanding.You are the knower behind the knowing process and that cannot be described but it can be known as Awareness. or the Absolute Being in TM . Awareness sees the meditator, Awareness sees everything and sees that there was never a self,the egoic self, the person,it was just an idea,formed in the mind, a bundle of thoughts.How can a bundle of thoughts be real? it comes and goes,but what sees it doesn't come and go. If you are meditating with TM for two hours a day,you are stirring up too much stress causing all these negative thoughts. Also you must unstress with activity, not sit around. Awareness is so close it goes unnoticed but how else would you know of the self conditioned idea called a person? Awareness cannot see itself like the eye cant,but it sees,it knows it is existance itself,the knower behind the knowing process. It cannot be described ,only known. When I practise TM there is just Awareness,stillness, no "me" because thoughts have gone. the more you meditate as taught, over time,Awareness,becomes dominant in daily life, and the idea of a "me" just isn't there anymore,at least not enough to get in the way Realisation is a process and that takes time.The self idea is long established and doesn't want to die,but if you want Truth the person has to go. the mind, the bundle of thoughts is a useful tool but it isnt you, it can be used in the world in practical situations. So no one is living in your body, but life as Awareness is, thats freedom. As the Buddha said, after realisation...."Architect( the one that builds the body mind self IDEA ) you are no more,you will not build your house again" (rebirth in this life or another)" he knew he wasn't Prince Siddhartha , he became Awake to being no- one. I find Non duality teaching -self inquiry (which is what TM is based on) to be of great help .Have a look at Mooji vid "The greatest healing" about 10 mins. Hope that helps.....
Mary Gwen Dungan You need a Guru that you can stick with,I would recommend Mooji as he is very direct and simple and funny,, and has a great deal of compassion.Maybe you would prefer Adyashanti or Rupert Spira, but they are more intellectual. I can give you another Mooji. video to watch that may give you another awakening but Realisation can take a lifetime.... Digging many shallow holes in a field will not produce a well....find a Guru you really are attracted too and keep digging that well only !
+John Smith Interestingly, Adyashanti often lets slip the message of the "exhausted seeker" here and there, as he did in this exert from an interview; "This looking to the future isn’t really the fault of the spiritual practices themselves; it’s the attitude with which the mind engages in the practices - an attitude that is seeking a future end and seeing that end as somehow inherently different from what already exists here and now. The role of the spiritual practice is basically to exhaust the seeker. If the practice does what it’s supposed to do, it exhausts our energy for seeking, and then reality has a chance to present itself. In that sense, spiritual practices can help lead to awakening. But that’s different from saying that the practice produces the awakening. The spiritual practitioner is like someone who’s running and is really tired and wants to rest. You could say, “Well, just stop, then.” But they have this idea that they have to cross a finish line before they can stop. If you can convince them that they can just stop, they’ll be amazed." In stating that the "role" of spiritual practise is to exhaust the seeker might be a little bit of a stretch though, possibly just a concession to the seeker on his part, who knows? I say this because it suggests that spiritual practice plays a "role" whereas in reality, as far as I can tell, there is no "role" for so called spiritual practice, any more than there is a role for someone going to the pub every night, or running 10K every other day (another couple of potentially exhausting activities). When I look for a grand plan in all of "this" in which everything arises in a conditioned way, I can only find one if the character is emphasised. Without the emphasis of the character on a timeline, there is no conditioning factors, only stuff arising. And I can't see that the awakening he refers to can be anything more, or less, than awakening to the fact that there's no awakening to awaken to in the first place. In this respect, one doesn't so much awaken into some new place where everything's swell, rather, one notices that the place where everything's swell is not available, it was only ever an idea on behalf of someone who could reach a place where everything's swell. No more or less significant than the drinker who notices that the next drink isn't going to take them to that ultimately warm and fuzzy place, and desists in their futile attempts to do so down the pub each night. (that's all just another narrative mind you, so throw in a pinch of salt of you will)
I'm not sure if Joey is suggesting that so called 'normal' conventional experience of reality is all there is - so don't go looking for a better experience? Or, is he using this as a pointer to help people understand that seeking behavior undermines one's ability to experience their true nature? I worry that his message could be mis-interpreted by a lot of people. Anyone who has noticed any progress (so to speak), realizes that the mistaken notion of taken one to be only a separate self is probably the biggest hindrance to living a happy life, no?
I just want to respond to the comment about celibacy / Yogananda. Many of the great sages discovered for themselves a clear relationship between actively making an effort to reduce craving / aversion and a direct benefit in producing a state that became preferable, and the subjective experience of wisdom arising in this clearer, calmer mental state. As the aperture of awareness increases - this correlation becomes clearer and clearer. We can also look to the current understanding of wellbeing from a neuroscience point of view - as one becomes addicted to anything - internet porn, drugs like cocaine / meth, suffering increases and wellbeing diminishes.
+Christina Guimond Learning from one's own experience is surely key. If one finds sex hurtful to oneself one would surely be stupid to keep on with it. Buddha is supposed to have said (who knows what he really said) that if there was a force more powerful than sex he wouldn't have been able to have become enlightened. To deny that sex is a powerful force would be stupid. So I think the thing is to be honest about it and see it for what it is. To simply say its a wonderful thing that should be endlessly indulged in is imbecilish. Equally so to turn it into something demonic which one spends all ones time and energy trying to avoid is also not wise. The question is whether the Yoganandas of the world are on some higher plane or whether they are simply expressing a certain stage in the path appropriate at a certain time for some people. I don't really see how we can know the answer to this except from our own experience which we should use as a pointer. Of course listening to others experience can be helpful but to blindly follow such would simply lead to frustration ultimately.
Joey: "When I look for experience, consciousness, awareness, and objects and all that... I can't find it." Which rings true. Yet still 'I' wonder: What would constitute a actual 'finding"? I.e., what are the criteria needed to establish a true "finding"? And exactly how might he describe the 'I' he used to describe himself in his statement? What is this 'I' that needs to or could find something?
+George Merc. If there's nothing to be found, then I would suggest that there can never be a true finding, unless the "finder" is emphasised. In this case, I suspect that the use of a personal pronoun is simply a necessary concession to the limitations of language, but who knows?
+George Merc. To look for Pure Awareness *as a phenomenal object* and to not-find it (as an object) IS the portal to "finding" (or, if you will, re-cognizing) it as no-thing, i.e. as non-phenomenal Presence. The trick, when not-finding it as an object, is to avoid nihilism -- and embrace the non-phenomenal "experience" which is our True Nature.
+Dave Blakemore He did not say "there is nothing to be found." He stated he could not find certain items being discussed implying others were findable. So what were they? What criteria used? What's finding or the not-finding?
+George Merc. Ah, I see what you mean. I was actually overlaying my own assumptions there, based on the unfindableness (there's a silly new word for you) of anything I care to look for (especially missing socks), including the one who cares to be looking for it, and the unfindableness itself. Words are great aren't they, like a game of cat and mouse, as soon as one commits something to language the only ultimately reasonable option is to undermine what one has just said. In light of that, everything I wrote just is complete nonsense, including this sentence. (0_0)
+Dave Blakemore Makes sense to me. What's unfindable is, I believe, meaning. Everything else, if one can use those words, is a given. Inescapable. Including the projection of meaning.
Don't know why, but I just can't get my head round the idea of Rajneesh being an 'evil criminal'; but then I never had any 'direct' experience of him.......The problem is, though, isn't it, that Religion is not yet a science?...... In a similar way, before History was a science, neither the student nor the 'historian' had any way of distinguishing (other than the 'historian's' reputation) what was being said from blarney that you could hear down any pub'. And neither party realized the necessity of doing so, if they wished what was being said to be intelligible as truth. And thus understood as anything other than a story......To be sure, to be sure, 'spiritual teachers' have a vested interest in keeping Religion that way . But then they'll have to go on talking to themselves. (To their own and anyone who's listening to them's detriment.)...... Because if I understand the essence of what this gentleman's saying correctly - were Religion to become a science, it would perforce cease to exist as a separate discipline - just as an anthropological curiosity....Which is what I feel will happen.
Well, of course, those daily hours of being immersed in all that TM, prayer, etc. could only result in someone turning into a "spiritual zombie." But then one so intent on the illusory notion of assiduously pursuing Enlightenment at any cost wouldn't realize that anyway.
I feel that it is in this interview (with Joey Lott) and the one with Rupert Spira that the host has trouble managing some over-zealousness, which as an editor's touch is fine, but from time to time becomes too present. Good concept anyway.
All these non dual people have it wrong. Everyone has perfect buddha nature already, but it's obscured to them. And it take a while fro people to come to the realization. Very simple.
I agree. There's a vast difference from the understanding that you have Buddha nature ad the experiential realization of it. Unfortunately, some people mistake the understanding for the experience. I'm not implying that Joey does.
I am not sure about where this guy is going. He experienced whatever he claims that he had because of all the practice he put in. Then he is claiming that there is nothing to do and you are already what you seeking. Even to get that understanding one has to put efforts in or follow some path.
+rav jangra That is an age old debate. Some say there is nothing to do, yet most did something before they woke up. A few did it unconsciously through great suffering, ex. Tolle and Katie. My view is life lives itself and what happens is perfect even when the mind perceives it to be otherwise, this is the great paradox.
whatever I'm doing, that's what I'm doing! There couldn't be an atom or molecule out of place in the universe, including the current experience I call "me."... I wrote a rant a while ago about being angry at all the calls for practice or action to "achieve" awakening... If you were standing on your toilet when you received "enlightenment" then I'm not going to stand on my toilet. How much faster will a plant grow if "coached" on the best techniques to reach the top of the trellis and fully realize its "plantness?" Does any amount of "advice" for a growing tree help it reach the "nirvanah" of full "treehood?" In the end, all of experience is as it is, my sadness, grief, anguish, joy, bliss and despair... Enjoy... adamonsoftware.blogspot.com/2014/02/a-case-for-inaction.html
I really like this podcast but this guest was a real weirdo, probably the kookiest one yet. For example, meth "creates holes in your brain" is dismissed in a kind of "that's, like, your opinion, man" and other nonsense. Really surprised this actually got published.
