John Bradfield's City Circle Underground Railway Sydney, Sydney Trains. 

The enclosed design would have looked MUCH nicer, plus it would neatly blend in with the surrounding area. Much nicer than the shack we have now that had ugly advertising on the tracks for about 20 years.

@@griffinrails I agree 100%. It would have blended in with the surrounding building plus would have looked less dominating of the water front as it wouldn't have had the expressway on the top. I believe it would have been more for the people also as the proposed restaurant would have provided much better views of the harbour and the rooftop garden would have made an amazing space to watch boats and ships come in and trains depart from the east and west.

Paved the gateway building there 3 times over 30 years,

They got that one wrong. Should've gone with the enclosed grand building, would've looked amazing!

Opening up the building was fine (although the choice of style is debatable), but replacing the highway with a rooftop garden and a restaurant + café would be nice.

Yes, I have to agree. If the east and west loops were built as planned 100 years ago, Sydney would have look vastly different in those areas today. I guess those areas would be much higher density today due to the strong PT links. The sadder thing is that parts of the loops and the northern beaches line were even built e.g. the tram tracks over the Sydney Harbour bridge and then we went backwards and removed those tracks and tunnels. Such as waist.

Yes you're correct. I thought the Eastern rail tracks were going to be used for Bradfield's northern beaches line and the trams were only using it temporarily until then. Even more sadly, today I went to walk the car park tunnels and it looks like the car park is no more. Don't know how anyone from the public can get in there now. A complete waisted opertunity.

One of the tram tunnels at Wynard was used as the NSW Prisons Service pistol range at least through the 1970's. You can still see the partially demolished viaduct for the tram lines leading from North Sydney station to the east side of the Harbor Bridge (it used to house the NSW Police Safety Traffic Patrol/Highway Patrol on the North Sydney side and Department of Main Roads offices on the Milson's Point side)

I'm glad Bradfield got his way with the present design of the coat hanger.

I always wondered why Wynyard now use platform 3-6, with no 1 and 2. That was the tram platforms.

@@SydneyHistory Might be more to come on those old Wynyard tram tunnels in the not too distant future..and no it's not for growing mushrooms.

True, but I do think that the current Circular Quay building and expressway above acts as a massive wall dividing the harbour and city. Looking over the original designs I think it would have been less obtrusive because it wouldn't have had the expressway above. Although the station wouldn't have been open to the harbour it still would have had a rooftop garden for the public to enjoy and a restaurant and the design would have blended in with the rest of the cities building behind it. Anyway there is no chance that it can be or could have ever been built underground due to the layout of the terrain, so it's here to stay.

@@SydneyHistory What do you think that enclosed building would have done. When you look at all the tall timber surrounding it now I don't really think that enclosed building would have been much better.

@@carisi2k11 I think it would have had more character that what we have now and would have been less obtrusive. Also without the Cahill Expressway on top it would have looked 1000% better. However it is very functional in it's current form. I'm just not a fan of this functionalist form of architecture applied in this case, it's very bland for something that should have been a showpiece.

They certainly do SydneyRover. Sydney and the world in general would be a poorer place without civil engineers.

Australia needs more visionaries like that of Bradfield, but with more up to date ideas that don't impact too much on day to day workings. Bradfield somehow managed to work around everything. I read in a newspaper article that luddites of the time thought Bradfield was too 'modern'. Thank goodness for Bradfield's modern thinking at the time, in that case, or we probably wouldn't have the likes of the 'coat hanger' as it is today.

Must not forget the input from all facets of engineering along with the Civil engineers. The complexities of electrical engineering today cannot be overlooked.

Glad you like it. 👍

Thank you I glad you enjoyed it. I hope to make more in the future 🙏

Thanks Terry Ansell. Glad you guys on the other side of the ditch enjoy it too. 👍

True the open air is good, but I think we could of had the best of both. A nice classical architecture station without the expressway on top. The platforms could still be open.

If you are referring to the metro, yes it will be great once it opens next year.

Sydney's public transport is on the way to being "world class" but it still has a long way to go! From my experience I would put London, Moscow, Shanghai, Beijing, Paris, St Petersburg, and Istanbul much further up the list than Sydney. I'm old enough to remember catching trams from the underground platforms at Wynyard to Chatswood.

I wouldn't call it world class just yet, we absolutely need a better tram system, considering what Sydney used to have, and some bus accessibility issues that need to be sorted out before we can call anything world class (like actually showing the stops on the screens rather than a useless logo)

@@SydneyHistory Let's not forget that Sydney had a great tramway system that worked with the trains. Some nutter decided to get rid of it and here we are now bringing some of it back.

Yes, Cinema Ipswich. It's always good to find and use as much locally sourced materials. Both Sydney and Brisbane have highways named after Bradfield and many parks also.

Hi Rodolfo. Thank you for your message. It makes us happy to know that you chose our video to present in your English lesson. I hope your class mates enjoyed your reading. Thanks for sharing this, Mike.

Thank you. Will do my best. 👌

Thanks for watching, Jeff Mason. Yeah John Bradfield was impressed and got a lot of ideas from LU. It's very small when compared to LU but it was the start of a grand vision that wasn't really followed through. There was meant to be an eastern and western suburb loops to add to this underground vision.

I was also amazed when I went to London. Even the above-ground stations look very similar to ours in Sydney.

A highly simplified version of the LU roundel was used at many stations, above and below ground on the wider Sydney network up to the late 80's. As stations were upgraded, those signs were lost. The Roundels on the underground stations are closer to the LU style and are reproductions which were put back up in the last 7 or 8 years.

Thanks for the feedback, MrButtonpresser. More episodes out soon on a whole range of Sydney History topics. Hopefully they live up to your expectation. 🙏

Yes, we are lucky enough that we have super high res photos of the time in Sydney.

I like the classical architecture one it kind of reminds me of a crown jewel. Maybe a blend of open and classical. Definitely no express way on top.

@@SydneyHistory Yes it has dated quite a bit the current structure

Thanks, griffin rails. The next one will be out in a couple of weeks and will be a history on John Bradfield.

Thanks for sharing your experiences Richard. Knox Grammar School fascinates me as I travel past in on the train looking in. The School looks very prestigious and reminds me of a large American style school with it's grand stand and oval facing the train line. Yes I know what you mean when the train comes out of the tunnel at Circular Quay, darkness then bright spectacular light and an amazing view.

Thanks for watching. Glad you enjoyed it 😊

Anytime, Paul Slater. Thanks for watching another episode will be out in a week or so.

Thanks for the Sub, Ross Mitchell. It's greatly appreciated. I'm really enjoying creating videos on Sydney History. Definitely more to come soon.

Glad you enjoyed it, Chris Oliva. Sydney is so rich in history and has so many untold stories. I hope to tell some of those stories here as I think there are a lot worth telling. Thanks for watching.

My pleasure, thanks for watching. 👍

Yep, it's a great asset. Wouldn't know the city without it.

Glad you enjoyed it, thanks for watching. More will be coming soon on a whole range of topics.

Thanks for watching. Glad you enjoyed it.

I think they could remove the expressway above without too much issues, but the railway would be too steep for the trains if the station was put underground.

Thank you, Rheilffordd. We're just getting started and have some pretty interesting episodes coming up in the months ahead. Glad you joined us at this early stage.

Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed it.

Art Deco was a distinct architectural style. I don't know of any recent examples of it though.

Thanks Paul, love your work too. Love the metro updates very detailed 👌

Thank you for watching and the kind comments. Hopefully publish another one on John Bradfield in the next week.

Yes, it sounds like Bradfield's son was pivotal in his own right in shaping our city. I think it's awesome that Nancy Bird Walton and Bradfield have received a tip of the hat and being recognized for what they have done in shaping our great country. Imagine the new western Sydney airport being called Bradfield Jr and the commercial city close by being called Bradfield.

Thanks, I think the City Circle is defiantly a story worth telling. One of the cities great achievements.

Glad you enjoyed it. More to come soon.

I'm sure it was an adventure, especially going over the Harbour Bridge. Those red Rattlers could sure make some noise. I can remember at night I could hear when a train went past and we were about 2km from the line, so I'm sure it must of been insanely loud going though the tunnels as you said John.

@@SydneyHistory Mike, just to set the historical record straight - the term "red rattler", whatever its status linguistically now, was never a part of Sydney-siders' vocabulary in the 50s through to the 70s, when I was at school and then university. It's a borrowed term from Melbourne, for the famous early Tait trains that were indeed known as red rattlers (check out videos which show some recently restored examples). The term was introduced by the lazy and unimaginative TV Media (!) in the late 80s just before the standard rust red trains were retired in toto. Sorry to say that too may people of younger vintage than I believe they were always called such. There is, or was, even a cafe in northern NSW named The Red Rattler, and housed in a re-purposed Sydney carriage. Nope. In all my years of frequent travel on Sydney trains as a child and young adult I never heard the term used once at school or among family and multitudes of friends. I've made it a bit of a crusade to point this out to people when the occasion arises, which probably is a wasted effort, but since your YT moniker is 'Sydney History' you need to pay particular attention to being accurate. Cheers!

@@thelongdrag9188 Thanks for this deeper historical insight The Long Drag. It always amazes me how the same thing can be different to different generations. To me they were always the Red Rattlers being a kid in the last 70s and 80s. I was fortunate enough to see one close up going over the Sydney Harbour Bridge during it's 90th celebration. They were also selling tickets to ride on it for $10 but they were all sold out by the time I found out. Once again, thanks for the historical context of the name. I hope you enjoyed the video otherwise.

@@SydneyHistory Yes I did very much - well researched and presented! I am old enough to have travelled on Sydney toast- rack trams as a child in the 50s and experienced the thrill of these racing down the Phillip St hill to Circular Quay with the conductor swinging along the running board and holding on with one hand. I also recall the early suburban rail, wooden bodied Bradfield sets which hardly anyone knows about these days and some of the earliest ferries on the harbour, the pre WW1 Lady series (Scott, Ferguson, Denman etc with their open engine pits). The Bradfields were precursors to the famous red 'standard sets' as the railway staff and drivers called them, of the same Tuscan Red colour, but with a differently designed front end. These earlier ones came onto the tracks in 1921, and by the 60s they were being rapidly phased out, and only glimpsed rarely on the North Shore line. I concede that due to linguistic leakage due to a mobile population, the term Red Rattler may have been conveniently borrowed from Melbourne and started coming into usage here and there a bit earlier than I suggested, because by the time you were riding them the Tuscan reds were mostly superseded by more modern shiny stainless sets and there were therefore opportunistic grounds to compare them colloquially. Actually I don't think they rattled excessively, just about the usual for any train of that era. In my teens the single deckers were the only trains in town. But as another YT channel creator has stated, the term Red Rattler only entered the wider public consciousness via the Sydney media about 4 years before the end of their 66 year career, thus about 1985 on. Surprisingly this is supported by Wikipedia, which states, "In the years before their withdrawal, they were nicknamed Red Rattlers.This term was imported from Victoria and was never a contemporaneous colloquialism."

Thanks for the visit, Aus Flight Channel.

Yeah he was a true visionary in many aspects. I like his water diversion and irrigation plan for northern Queensland. You could feed all of Asia if that plan was fully implemented.

Yep, and if built could even divert some of the water to the Darling and drought proof western NSW.

How could you not?. In today's world his plan for the northern rivers would see a lot more hydro power in the mix and those nuclear plants nuked.

Thanks for sharing these memories, RGC198. Wow, I would have been great if they went through with the plans to use the disused tunnels and platforms at St James Station. I heard that it's virtually impossible to use the tunnels in a northbound direction because they are very shallow just under the surface and many modern building basements are now blocking the paths. However the southbound tunnels are still usable I've heard. Perhaps one day they can still use them as a terminal station.

@@SydneyHistory From what I remember, the Libs were planning to use all corridor type trams and start them at St James, then through to Darlinghurst and surfacing at Anzac Parade continuing out then to the eastern suburbs (La Perouse, Coogee, Bronte, Bondi and Maroubra). The main idea was to free William Street Kings Cross for improved traffic flow. Also, even then, the Eastern Suburbs Railway was still planned and maybe they were thinking of the current route by then. This plan was suggested after a news announcement said that the then current Labor government was planning to scrap all trams In Sydney.

But askin got the big bung from Leyland

interesting. I wasn't aware of that. However, that may explain why trams were never returned to Sydney in 1965, after he became premier. Of course, with the tram system being closed in 1961 and the majority of the former infrastructure removed and scrapped, reintroducing trams may have been too costly at the time.

Thanks, mate. Thanks for watching.

Welcome Jay Bee. Thanks for subbing. Glad you enjoyed it.

Thank you so much, MetroManMelbourne. I agree with you it would be nice to replace the elevated section underground, but I think the cost would be prohibitively expensive for what ultimately would be a beauty project. Maybe it might be practical to do it at the end of the viaducts life space and the costs would be unavoidable in any case. However, this elevated section existing only because this part of the city is in a valley where the tank stream used to run into the ocean. Both the east and western sections of the City Circle in much higher ground about 20 metres above sea level. I think if the Circular Quay section is put underground the rolling stock would have problems going up and down this section. The best we could hope for is probably the undergrounding of the expressway. But lets face it, I think it will be like this for the next 50 years.

@@SydneyHistory Come to think of it that whole elevted section could become a real attraction such as the Promenade Plantee in Paris which was put to good use from repurposing an old line viauct. New York also has The High Line. The disused section of former line over Ultimo Road could be similar.

We have numerous people wanting to remove the viaduct and it all seems to be for beautification purposes but they also wish to remove the railway. See it for what it is. It's an interchange for Ferry, Trains and Trams that supports a viaduct above it to take traffic from the bridge to the eastern side of the city. Do they imagine that the existing tunnel crossing could carry double capacity? Alternatively do they want the the additional traffic within the city itself. Sure we could build yet another tunnel but that would surely be another toll road. We already have one for east/west traffic which would be difficult to link up traffic from bridge traffic. Basically I have no problem with how it looks now as optically it gives Circular Quay some width. If it was removed the view would all be vertical.

@@robertfountain4856 Only in Australia: 1. Identify the most historic, iconic and scenic location in Australia. 2. Put a railway viaduct and freeway through it!

No, it's ugly if it's removed bruh, why add a park that is not heritage listed

Hey Ken, hope you been well mate. Yeah I thought I'd cover some history of my home city. I'm hoping I can get back to Japan in the next few months provided I get the visa approval. It would be awesome to meet up one day. 🙏🍻

Yeah for sure, Linda George. I've heard the Wynyard tunnels used for the second Harbour Bridge crossing are still in use as a car park. I'll definitely check it out and get some footage in the process.

@@SydneyHistory Wynyard platforms 1 and 2, have been part of the car park for the Menzies Hotel for many years, with one of the tunnel portals being used as the northern exit onto Cumberland St. I'm not sure if you can currently access the car park (I recall seeing something about the hotel being redeveloped), but Abandoned Oz did a video showing what is left of the platforms and tunnel a while ago.

Yeah, Wynyard Station looks pretty crazy like that. Both Wynyard and Town Hall Station were built to look like a New York Subway station. Where as St James and Museum were based off London Underground.

Yes, you're right. There are talks already about cancelling the South West and Sydney to Parramatta Metros.

Awesome, St David's Uniting Church. I think I will take a walk through there soon and explore the old tram tunnel and try and find the old tunnel portal on the east side of the Sydney Harbour Bridge.

Yes you're 100% right, Diesel Dave Trains. I couldn't find a hi res picture of the first train before publishing this video, so that pic on the east side of the bridge had to do. Glad you like the video. More to come soon. 👍

@@SydneyHistory I believe the tram terminus at Wynyard was later used as a underground car park when tram services ceased?

@@dieseldavetrains8988 That's right. I'd been in there a few times over the years, but not for 10 years or so. I should go and check it out see if the car park is still operating and get some video footage.

I agree, Barbara-Louisa Walker. The projects of the early 20th century were built for the future. Another project I can think of was the Warragamba Dam. Built to serve a population 50 year in the future and twice its size for its time.

the 3 towers at barangaroo , , , world square , central park , , the thing [ cantalever] hanging out in space , , lol , did paving in that :)

Wow, you've really hit the pavement over the years. I have to say I really like the stones that are used in the Sydney sidewalks. They look good, but the dark colour also hides the grime from day to day life. What type of stone are they? Was it Lord Mayor Frank Sartor's idea to repave the Sydney streets?

Mostly granite now as it's resilience to wear uncomparable, but down side if your head hits it , your skull will smash

Have even planted time capsules in my works over the yrs

One under rose granite copping of Archibald fountain in Hyde Park,

It's all talk, it will never go underground. If it did it would all be for looks and zero transport benefit. Putting it underground wouldn't bring anymore tourists to the Quay anyway. But I would have been nice if they implemented the 1900 Circular Quay station design. That would have looked like the jewel in the crown for the Quay. Also due to that design the expressway above would likely not have been built.

Thanks for subbing. So far it's been a lot of fun making these videos. Geoff's channel and the Londonist are awesome 👌

Yeah agree Geoff. Bradfield's water diversion plan would have drought proofed Queensland and feed all of Asia. It's a plan that's still one of the best even today.

Thanks for watching Aaron Brandt. I've seen a few of Geoff Marshall's video and he is a very informative guy. Thanks for subscribing.

Geoff’s videos are great.

@@jaybee9110 Agree, Geoff Marshall does a great job in covering London's transportation system.

Nice, Hugh Martin. I'm sure it was a real treat to experience Museum Station for the first time virtually still in it's original condition, but for some new elevators. From what I know the advertisements are copies.

I used to go through there as a kid, going to visit my grandparents - the ads are definitely sympathetic reproductions, the 1950's and later ad boards were very 'brutalist'.

Yes, contactless or Opal card tap on tap off. The station concourse has change significantly, much more clearer, removed clutter like shops in there and opened it up for pedestrians. I would say it has improved greatly.

Yes the hardest part of the eastern suburbs and northern beaches line was built. The crossing over the Harbour Bridge into North Sydney. It would have to be the single biggest transport mistake of all time in Sydney. The Circular station in the picture was proposed to be built on piers over the water so pedestrian access would have been more than it is today. If it went ahead, the Cahill Expressway would have never been built, probably.

I hear what you saying John O. They were built to last, but weren't too comfortable or safe. I remember as a kid the train speeding along with the doors open and that was considered normal. The windows would also be open for that matter. Nothing like 40 degree hot air in your face in the middle of summer.

@@SydneyHistory What was really strange was the 7am train was a 50 year old dilapidated red rattler and the 7:15am train was the futuristic Tangara.

You will find vision of a restored Red Rattler set in a number of videos featuring thr rerestored 3801. Can also be found at the Thirlmere Rail Museum.

It is no coincidence that Bradfield was part of a Public Works Department at a time when backhanders and use of privateers was less common.

Very true, John Brooks. I think it was just a unique time in history, that will probably never happen again, where a genius engineer was able to shine and politicians made decision for the greater good of the community instead of thinking about the next election cycle.

This is true, Jodi J. I find it hard to believe when I think about it. Bradfield's plan was like a gift that was never used and partially returned. I mean the second Harbour Bridge rail crossing was built it just had to be extended into the northern beaches. Town Hall, Wynyard and St James were all built with extra platforms and tunnels for the construction to continue without disturbing the existing infrastructure. What did we do, remove the second Harbour crossing seal up the tunnels. I can only imagine what Sydney may have been if the eastern and western suburbs loop lines were built and the northern beaches. Here we are at 5 million people, double the population of Bradfield's vision and we still rely heavily as our only means. When the new metro line opens in 2024 it will be the first major piece of new infrastructure added to the CBD capacity since the Bradfield plan.

The NSW Government commissioned a study by De Liew Cater, a US consultancy in 1957.It recommended the abolition of trams, and Fort Dennison became Benalong Point, site of a new Opera House. De Liew Cather was in fact a subsidiary of General Motors which produced busses, and recommended the abolition of street cars across the US.Incidentally, tunnels at St James became HQ for General Macarthur in WW2. There are 2 unused sub terranian platforms at Central and I was informed that there is an unused tunnel up to Oxford St

@@SydneyHistory You're discounting the Eastern Suburbs line and the station added at Martin Place

Thanks Nat Hegotule. I'm glad you enjoyed it and found it educational. Back in those day they would dig the tunnels out in a three peice suit on a 35 degree day. It was just what they did Back then. I couldn't do it, lol.

Yes I've heard about it. It's called St James Lake and is deep as 5 metres I some parts and as long as about 1km. I think it's location is under the botanical gardens. A waist of gifted infrastructure if you ask me.

Yeah it's great isn't it. I'm glad they adopted the roundel and also glad they kept it through all the change.

Yes the disused tunnels should be put to use even if it is just an underground pedestrian walkway connecting St James and Martin Place Stations. Imagine in 2030 being able to walk from Barangaroo all the way to Hyde Park underground. It would just need a few minor 10 or 20 metre connections.

Interesting I can't find no evidence of this claim. However the Australian Museum has claimed the name was their idea. "Then in 1925 the Museum’s secretary WT Wells was personally congratulated by the Trust for another really bright promotional idea. He suggested to the Railway Commissioners of NSW that the new underground station at the southern end of Hyde Park should be called MUSEUM. After some deliberation they decided that this was a top idea and the rest, as they say, is history."

Ok so i live in Museum Towers that is across the road from Museum station entrance on Castlereagh Street Our building has a heritage front This heritage front was the train or transport Museum back in the early 1900s The Australian Museum is way across hyde Park Closer to Wynyard I don't think your correct

There is no evidence it is called after the Australian Museum

The museum of freemasonry is actually next door to our building One of the strata committee members thinks that the original building that museum towers has the heritage front to is was the original museum of freemasonry FYI

@@sscfc1 there is evidence that it was WT Wells idea from the Australian Museum in 1925.

I wouldn't say rapid exactly. The nee Northwest metro would fit that description though

True, London Underground is the same. But the small tunnels made for faster construction time and less cost. So I guess it's a trade off in a way.

What original network are you referring to? When did they dig up Town Hall?

Conspiracy theorist. When they were doing upgrade works in the 1990's at Town Hall they did find a few brick tombs from St Andrew's that had been missed when the graveyard there was relocated. I think there was also a graveyard that had to be relocated back in the 1920's south of Central under what is now Prince Alfred Park. I can still remember being shown the open pit on the east side of Central by my mother who had seen it being dug when she was a girl (her father worked in Cooper St).

Yes when you compare them to other places in the world like London, Tokyo or New York. But those cities have bigger population and have invested more into the system up keep.

Yes he certainly had a vision and even got to build part of it. Even some parts were later destroyed like the second rail crossing on the Sydney Harbour Bridge.

Are you taking about what Sydney has become? I wouldn't call it a third world crap hole. I'd say it's going through a growth phase from city to mega city.

@@SydneyHistory That's the very definition of a crap hole, over crowding, brown outs, failing infrastructure, the third world component is very self evident by its attributes and the people that reside within it. Add to that no one was asked if they wanted this, instead politicians, bankers and developers get rich while the descendants of those that built a high standard of living through regulated growth are pushed into the outer slums while the upper class areas are also converted into said slums. Do you even travel on the "underground" that you are documenting?

Yes, you're right Bob and to think that the hardest part of that rail line was already completed with the rail line going over the Harbour bridge completed at the time of opening in 1932.

Yes I agree that the Cahill expressway is a blight on the foreshore. However I think it is hear to stay and any money spent on any such project could be better spent on public transport needs that are desperate. The Cahill expressway is a double travesty as it was only built in conjunction with removing the eastern rail line for the SHB which were meant for the Northern beaches line. I think it would have looked amazing if they had built the original design proposed in the early 1900s with a roof top garden and Victorian style architecture.

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it. More Sydney History coming soon.