John Dickinson was an extremely fascinating individual had great character. Was a noble individual beyond comprehension. His courage and his soul defined this noble man. A great man without question.
John Dickinson was a good and wise man. He was probably right to advocate for a delay until the Colonies were in a stronger position to face the full might of the most powerful Nation on earth. However, when he saw his opinion was in the extreme minority among his respected countryman, he stood aside in such a way as to keep his honor. Then himself took up arms and fought the British.
No, he DIDN'T. He was a militia leader after the war began, and was honored by Thomas Jefferson as "Among the first of the advocates for the rights of his country when assailed by Great Britain whose name will be consecrated in history as one of the great worthies of the revolution." Once the colonies voted, he stood with the patriots.
The revolution didn't face the full power of Britain, France and Britain were at war at the time, surely the majority of their military attention was focused on that conflict. EDIT: FRANCE AND BRITIAN WERE NOT AT WAR IN 1776. With that said, France did supply the continental army in 1775.
I'm Only A Man And I Will Die Some Day not just France we where also fighting Spain at the time. The irony is that losing America made Britain stronger in the long run as the colonies where actualy a financial and military burden. British power really took off after we lost the colonies and focused on India
Dickenson was a Quaker. A good Quaker. Fighting was a last resort. The very LAST resort. Or no resort at all. Adams was a passionate colonist. he was pissed at England. Very pissed. I think this scene captures that.
This is a very well written, well directed, and well acted the same. It’s very clear, the different backgrounds and experiences that these founders bring to the table, but they never lose the willingness to dialogue, no matter how heated it gets. They each keep humanity in the forefront of their decisions, and they are all Aspiring for the same goals. - freedom, national security, and I hope for posterity - this is what hashing out the different ways to that and it looks like. Modern Americans could learn a lot and observing these healthy traditional American-style debates.
People are stupid. "Coward" "loyalist" these people don't know their history. Dickinson was one of the first to speak out against Britain. He joined the continental army and fought against Britain. He was a proud American. All of you who disrespect him should be ashamed.
I am so grateful for these founders dedication to continue to record the speeches of Congress - since the continental Congress. If you look back at the National Archives, you can actually read every single speech for the most part since the mid 1760s.
It’s hard to play a wet blanket, especially a historical wet blanket. The tremor in Zeljko Ivanek’s voice and overall cadence in this series stands out to me.
Dickinson was one of the most underrated founders. He was also one of the first who spoke out as early as 1765 over the stamp/sugar acts making a name for himself long before other founders were ever known
Once independence was declared he did his duty and led militia forces during the war. He also had a large part in creating the Articles of Confederation. I still stand by my claim he was one of the most underrated founders
He moved to the UK and became a loyalist. HE came back after Jays treaty in 1791 to gain his things but decided to be British rather than American instead and left.
+Timothy Gibney Yes, he moved to Britain, but only for a short time in order to study law in the London courts. He was alive during, was invited to, and went to the Constitutional Convention. He didn't sign the Constitution himself, but that was because he was sick, so a friend signed it for him. John Dickinson was a true American, he was American for his whole life, he was born in Maryland to Quakers, and he died in Delaware a lawyer and politician. When it comes to the Declaration of Independence, he was presenting his view of independence, he was presenting how he thought things would play out if they declared independence. And when independence was declared, even though he objected to it, he decided to just fucking roll with it.
John Dickinson was the voice of reason against the passions of the mob. Regardless of his portrayal here he was a true patriot who fought for his country and during and after the revolution worked to make sure it stayed together. I, for one, am thankful.
I'm not sure if you made a shot at this scene, but this man is obviously conveying a love of his fellow countrymen. Knowing full well the horror that shall ensue. Possibly the complete destruction of entire regions.
@@aando5269e served as a militia officer during the Revolution. He was no coward. His portrayal here (as with the others in the show) was based on the memoirs of John and Abigail Adams, so it’s understandably not flattering for anyone they disagreed with. Hamilton was also portrayed in a very negative light in the show.
Indians will be loosed on the frontier! Neegrows will rise up, and slaughter us! - yeah give this guy a medal. True American hero if I’ve ever heard one.
Anyone who calls him a coward is an idiot. Like the line said in the movie "The Patriot".. "This war will not be in some distant frontier but among us. Among our homes. Our children will learn of it with their own eyes. And the innocent will die with the rest of us." Only inconsiderate warhawks would blindly advocate war without fully understanding the destruction it entails. HE had a very good point. France was a prime example of a country seeking revolution but trading the light yoke of one tyrant for the heavy dominion of Napoleon.
+dab0331 Heck, I wouldn't even consider Louis XVI a tyrant. He reigned over France with a legitimate claim, and he wasn't even that oppressive for an absolutist monarch (and by the way, it was more or less a French tradition for the King to side with the common man over the nobility). Louis XVI's reign turned sour because of a poor economic situation and the unwillingness of the aristocracy to reform taxation. Louis' weakness in the face of the crisis that ensued led to his demise. Other than that, I fully agree. John Dickinson spoke sense, if this is indeed what he said to the Congress. Independence was a leap into the darkness, and the British yoke was indeed light excepting the final years: who was to say that things couldn't be returned to how they were prior to 1768 (when British troops were stationed in Boston) without the radical solution of complete independence?
Except Great Britain had already rebuffed all attempts of reconciliation. War was inevitable, whether the Founders declared independence or not, and the US would have lost the war if we didn't make clear to other countries that we were seeking independence. It's interesting you would bring up the Patriot, because it's all about how the Patriot is forced into the war when the British kill one of his sons. The war was going to happen at this point, and we know from history that if we didn't receive intervention from other countries, we would have lost. So, while in general war is a terrible idea, and making Great Britain mad by declaring independence would definitively sever ties, Great Britain already severed ties by rebuffing the Olive Branch Petition. We could either surrender completely with our rights completely trampled, or make official our independence.
Napoleon was not even a threat until the United States was already 30 years old, we didn't even pursue a friendship with France France when it needed us most during its own revolution
Dickerson spoke from the heart with sincere conviction knowing that it would cost him politically. When he lost the debate, he put on the uniform & went out to fight. He deserves a place of honor in our history.
@@KurasakiBleachigo1 mon dieu......christians have more excuses for terrorism than the confessional to expose their sins in....ironic....yet they felt enslaved to the crown.....spare me that hypocrisy.....
Indeed! History books turn onlookers from the future into world-class Monday morning quarterbacks of history. People need to have much more humility about the decisions made in the past and figure out how they can apply the same wise principles and diligent debates to current issues facing us today.
Dickinson foreshadowed many things particularly the civil war. He was a well thought out man who proved to be correct. At the same time they needed to be said for show of bravery in order for the adoption of the Independence measure, including his own Pennsylvania.
His greatest issues weren't with the war itself, it was with it being prematurely declared by a single colony and the other colonies feeling as though they were dragged into the war. Massachusetts was ready for war, Virginia was ready to follow. But many other colonies still held reservations. A consensus was necessary to make sure they didn't face traitor colonies on their flanks. Everyone needed to get their skin in the game.
Dickinson was a great patriot and even Jefferson said as such after the Revolution. It seems neglected that very few members of Continental Congress supported Independence even in June 1776. New Jersey replaced its delegates at the last minute, among whom was Richard Stockton, sent to vote in favor of Independence although he had like Dickenson advocated reconciliation with Great Britain.
Dickinson was a wise and prudent man. However revolutions are not begun by prudent men but by men of action and fire. Most revolutions are bloody and end in tragedy. Only by a unique set of circumstances and a group of intelligent and wise men did this revolution end so well. Anyone but Washington could have become King, Potentate or Dictator. We were lucky, just look at the French Revolution or the revolutions in South America where the revolutionaries won only to end in a blood bath or a Dictatorship. We were fortunate indeed.
John Dickinson is never properly portrayed. Including in this mini series. He was a patriot. He supported independence. He voted against it 1776 because he believed they needed to write a constitution, and agree on a form of government before declaring independence. He fought bravely during the war.
John Dickinson never mentions a need for a constitution before independence in this mini series, in that, he would then vote for independence if that were so. He seeks reconciliation with the mother country, as he is portrayed as a Torrey, in the show.
He lacked foresight, he was wrong, and he was a coward, and probably British agent. In real life those to step forward to war, who have the foresight to make the right decision at the right time and risk their life are heros this man was not that. he was not a man who should be admired at all. the last man to answer the call is a fucking disgrace. Every great thing ever done requre3d bravery and foresight, the ability to overcome fear. This man was not that. he is your typical man. there is never a good time for a revolution in all of history thankfully the majority understood that and got it done. Saying he contributed to new nations as if that is impressive is funny, Since everyone who voted yes and still fought the British literally contributed more. And then there is the fact history proved the yes vote right. At my age I seen all kinds of people waiting to do all sorts of things and never doing them, the bigger the thing the less likely they ever get it done. Its actually a miracle so many brave men understood waiting for alliances that may never happen and confederation that may take who knows how long all the while being thwarted by British intelligence was not the right play. Also seeing in believing.
@@ReformedSooner24 - They didn’t fail. The Constitutional Convention exaggerated the problems with the AOC (not the idiot democrat) and went off on their own to scrap it.
I love how right after he asks what is to keep the colonies themselves from splitting asunder and how he feels that is inevitable, the camera shifts to the delegate from South Carolina, the first state to secede during the Civil War, who shifts uncomfortably in his chair.
History indeed shows that Dickinson's primary objection was seeing that the colonies had no substantive plan even earning independence much less a stable government afterwards. In fact Dickinson contributed to the new nation as was one of the architects of the Articles of Confederation that gave at least some semblance of organization until the Constitution could be adapted a decade later. Basically he criticized the Continental Congress for trying to do everything backwards. History proved him right about his predictions of chaos.
Dickinson really deserves his own dramatic movie. Unfortunately unlike other Founding Fathers like Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Adams or Franklin his name is so unknown to most of America that it wouldn't generate much in ticket sales.
Adams himself wasn't very known, even though he was the one that nominated G. Washington as commander in chief of the Continental Army. This series (based on the book the late great David McCullough) did an outstanding job in raising his historical profile.
John Dickinson courageously stood alone when the tide of popular opinion was overwhelmingly against him. We need more John Dickinsons and less groupthink tribalism.
Very fascinating individual. He was an honorable man for exercising caution in the manner he did, but he did not want to see blood spilt. He believed in peace to the most high bitter. Had loads of courage but had his demons. Though had a talent for the political career that he pursued reached the level of Statsemanship that most politicians can't reach. Served our country but had his demons yet he did well in the duties he performed a great Statseman beyond comprehension.
Say what you want about Dickenson and his reluctance to vote for independence, when the king basically said bow or fight he not only chose to fight, he got out there and did so bravely.
At that point in time, the prospect John Dickinson describes was WAY more likely than the eventual result. If France and Spain hadn't joined (which logically they shouldn't have as they were both monarchies) it would have been all over by 1778 and the revolutionaries hanged or worse. Despite being wrong about the outcome, Dickinson is actually quite a voice of reason here
It takes a man of great probity and even greater courage to stand for your principles when all around you are people calling you such denigrating invectives, such as coward, traitor and the like.
Wise, brave man who stated eloquently the dangers of independence on which the colonies were ready to embark - hotblooded and often heedless of those dangers..
He was not a coward , he was trying to avoid going to war with the king by sending letters trying to smooth things over, but the king was not have any of it and so on and so forth , so this was dickenson speech on having to go to war, witch he was hoping to avode .
What I like about this scene is the actor that plays John Dickinson is amazing in the speech he is sincere with John Adams he actually looks like he has some sympathy with Dickinson there was no malice between them they were just fighting for what they believed was right
One of the most powerful speeches ever given. He knew they were out matches and needed to do everything and anything to prevent war from coming. One of the saddest facts about our independence and shouldn’t be forgotten is; A high percentage of the population died in the American Revolution than in any other war fought by Americans. As a result more people knew someone who died or lost someone in the war than in any other war we have fought since.
Agreed! Men dressed better and SPOKE more formidably in those days!! How unfortunate that we have come to these days....the days of ignorance we suffer now!!!!
Very strong scene. The type of words that make you stare in drama without interrupting. I understand his point but he eventually declared independence officially. He just wanted to make sure they were ready to take care of a country and also ready for much bloodshed on both sides. Even for those american troops who got away with it I’m sure they hardly ever talked about it the rest of their lives. It’s a very weird feeling, war. It makes you quiet a lot and think about why god lets gruesome things happen. I was in the U.S. Army
I find John Dickinson one of the most compelling people in this program, and our history. That he could not bring himself to vote in favor of independence, but was one of only two members of the First Continental Congress to actively fight in the Revolutionary War, speaks volumes to his character. He was elected president of Delaware in 1781, and was the only Founding Father to free his slaves prior to 1786 (when it became more popular to do so). Honestly, you can't do much better than that!
Dickinson really gets a bum rap in this series. I understand why Hollywood felt the need to portray him as a whining hand-wringer, but historically he had an enormous influence on events and was held in very high regard by all the other delegates (including Adams, who remarked that "Mr. Dickinson's alacrity and spirit certainly become his character and set a fine example") and was popularly known at the time as the 'Penman of the Revolution.' After independence was declared he served with the Pennsylvania milita, rising to the rank of brigadier general, and fought in the New York and New Jersey campaigns. After the war he continued a life of public service until poor health forced his retirement in 1794. He was the only Founding Father to free all his slaves before the Revolutionary War ended, and he was a prominent figure in the early abolition movement until his death in 1808. Upon learning of Dickinson's death, Jefferson wrote of him "Among the first of the advocates for the rights of his country when assailed by Great Britain, he continued to the last the orthodox advocate of the true principles of our new government and his name will be consecrated in history as one of the great worthies of the revolution." So sad to see a true patriot turned into a cheap dime-store villain purely for dramatic purposes.
Dickinson was a true patriot. He was wrong about the prospects for America but he nevertheless fought for independence once the Congress determined to take that course. Later, Dickinson played an important role in the drafting of the Constitution. He also played a part in writing of the treaty with France. While his signature never made it onto the Declaration of Independence, there is no doubt he is a founding father of the United States.
How many Hongkongers have helped rid of the light yoke of the Anglo-Saxons only to receive the heavy dominion of “fellow” Chinese. A cautionary tell to anti-whites, anti-Christian, and blind trust over kindred blood.
In a way Dickerson wasn't entirely wrong about the disillusionment of the States, though it would be about 90 years before he was proven right. Remember that even after the Declaration of Independence it was THESE united States (little u emphasized) and even after the war and the Constitution was ratified there was still some doubt about what constituted the Union itself. These would not be questioned that would be answered until 1865 unfortunately.
Dickinson wasn't wrong. How many countries, freed from the yoke of colonialism, have embarked upon one civil war after another, petty warlords taking over and ruling their territory by brute force and the strength of their personalities (until killed by the next opportunist in line) when the "paper skiff" collapsed at the first sign of rain? America was incredibly fortunate that it held together against all these odds; that its colonies generally shared the same ambitions, culture and politics so that the transition was much easier than it would have been in other countries.
He was an interesting one. He did serve for a time in the Continental Army after the war started, then as a delegate to the Constitutional Convention. He freed his slaves before most of the othe rfounders did and became a supporter of the abolitionist movement later in life. Not bad.
When you look at how many times the colonist's army was defeated and under questionable leadership, it's a wonder that America was able to gain it's independence. The British used the Indians as well who were not happy with the colonists either. They had the advantage of attacking from Canada.
Great estimation by the actor of the accent of the times, West Country England with a slight barely noticeable American drawl, the pronunciation of the word “duty” as dootee rather than the English jewtee.
We should ponder John Dickinson's words. How well are we keeping 50 states, let only 13 colonies, together? I think he was right to be worried. Let's treat eachother with more charity, heh? Try not to let hom down
He talks about the "light yoke of Great Britain", but predicts horrible consequences if they declare independence that wouldn't come from a country that was imposing anything "light".
@@knightwatchman Couple of reasons. He put his reputation on the line, know he would lose. Then having lost the argument joined the fight. In opposing Independence, I believe he made the argument For it stronger. The Movie "1776" really does him an injustice.
@@stevenwiederholt7000 Thank you. I see it as you do. And the movie 1776 shows him as a pompous loyalist which he surely was not. But I still don't understand why he refused to sign the Declaration of Independence after his Olive Branch Petition was completely ignored by King George III.
Considering that it was the French Navy that won the war for them, and saved their lives, and none knew that France would contribute, who could blame him for his reservation about this whole thing.
Despite the quality of the words I can't help but feel that they are merely a repeat of everything that had already been said. We get it, the consequences of failure are dire, but no one wins a country by being timid. Perfect example of why a Quaker like Dickinson had no voice of consequence in a conflict that would inevitably lead to violence.
Okay we get it, he’s not a coward..people keep saying “he’s not a coward!” And yet there is no one here saying that, all I’m reading is people worshipping him lol
It's so easy to call John Dickinson wrong coming up on 250 years after the Declaration Of Independence, but at that moment, when the Continental Army was unpaid, badly equipped, badly fed and clothed, poorly trained and barely armed the idea that they would be able to defeat perhaps the most powerful land and sea forces in the entire world seems somewhere between foolishly optimistic and downright crazy! Support from France was still several years in the future and at that very moment, Washington's troops were facing their probable defeat and destruction in New York. If you put yourself in his place, at that moment, what he's saying seems entirely wise.
