Excellent video and thank you for posting. As a firearms instructor I have argued and taught these same fundamentals for many years with students and other instructors for my group, with regard to "fine motor skills argument" and using your support thumb to release the slide. Your video brought up several other topic points that I have not heard and you explained it better than I have been able to. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Keep the videos coming!
This comment is awesome....your basically saying we can always learn something new, no matter how good you think you are at something. Not knocking your skills or abilities in any way, just saying, that's what I got out of your comment. Thanks for sharing, and I hope I made some sort of sense.
Wow. This was eye-opening. Using my non-firing thumb on the slide lock during a mag change rather than what I currently do (pulling back the slide with my left hand) is going to shave at least a second off of my mag change/fire the next shot time. Much more efficient. Thank you.
Mcphee is right here. Consistency of an action, that is creating specific in road to a neural pathway still operate under stress, whether its a fine motor skill or not. Gross motor is easier, but fine motor with a suffiently myelinated pathway doesn't pose a problem.
As a left-handed shooter, I have to go over-the-top...my Gen 3 G23 doesn't have an ambi slide release...I'm lucky it does support an ambi mag release! :) I train for over-the-top, same motions for rectifying malfunctions, so it is a familiar movement.
I took a class with Mike Pannone and he taught me a technique. I call it "the old reach around". Insert the new mag with the right hand. Reach the right hand fingers around and pull the slide release down. Grip and present. When he demoed it, the reach around, grip and present was all one fluid motion. But you can break it out into individual steps until you get "handy". The puns just write themselves.
I always used my firing hand thumb on the slide stop as I would start to rotate and extend back to target, but I like this support hand doing it even better. Thanks Shrek.
John mentions using the firing hand to release the slide lock as you've already reestablished your grip and how it would ultimately disrupt it, would you not be able to release the slide lock as you're bringing your non firing hand up to reestablish your grip, therefore negating this? Any thoughts?
I find this very practical for mid-size to full size pistols, however a sub-compact does not feel natural. It seems more natural to come over the top, unless you have have small hands.
I'm a Lefty, taught by Mike Pannone. When your right hand puts magazine in mag well your right middle finger is not far from slide release, so use it. It is faster!
I know after using the slide lock a lot the gun will go into battery when the magazine is driven home hard all by its self. I believe it wears on the part and causes this to occur . What do you think.
I usually just drive it hard which saves me fractions of a second in my re-load. I know a lot of Glock owners that also do this. Maybe this is wrong ? 😂
I agree that everything is a matter of training. That being said, when I was taught the overhead charging, or "slingshot" method, the fine motor skill argument was not the primary reason given. When you use the overhand method, you put additional load on the recoil spring, giving your next round a more solid push into the chamber. This can be critical at the reload stage, since at that point, your gun is no longer clean and conditions are no longer ideal for clambering a round cleanly. In an engagement, you want to make sure that reload chambers and seats the next round properly so you don't have to clear a malfunction. Another reason for running the slingshot method is that IT WILL WORK WITH VIRTUALLY EVERY SEMI-AUTO HANDGUN. Regardless of make, model, or origin, the majority of handguns will charge this way. To train in this method means that no matter how stiff the slide stop on certain guns are, or where it is located, (or if there isn't one on the gun, yes...that's a thing) you can get a fresh magazine into the firearm and get it back into the fight. Sorry John, but I feel like your response on this one was incomplete. You just didn't cover every aspect of this technique.
B.B. Wiggs he already has, in a class I was in I asked him this very same thing. He's a lefty too, and told me there's no secret magic trick. Just go over the top and get back on the gun with as efficient a movement/s as possible.
Not all handguns have slide locks like the Beretta Nano and Walther PK380. You don't always know what gun you will be fighting with. Theatres and other places may have large numbers of armed people and you may have to use someone else's gun. Some people have to look at the slide lock to use it. Looking at the slide lock means you are not looking at the problem. If you pull the slide back, it goes back. If you pull the slide back, it goes back. On Glocks it goes back almost half an inch. That mean the spring is compressed that much more making the slide go forward with more force making it a little more likely the slide is back in battery and you are back in the fight. I'll stick with running the slide.
Not all guns have safeties either, you going to carry a 1911 with the safety off because not all guns have safeties? The Nano is a pocket pistol, you're most likely not carrying extra mag, and if you could you're better off carrying something a little bigger like the G26. Go ahead and give your enemy that extra second to shoot you. He's a former Delta force who fought in the mountain of tora bora and ran through Iraq cities with a Glock as sidearm. I think he knows best lol learn how to manipulate all kinds of weapons
Funny that Smith and Wesson still says its a slide LOCK not release, and isnt intended to be manipulated as a release. Slide stop is so much faster and easier. Maybe theyll figure it out some day.
KNIGHT BLACK RIFLE can you do it 100% of the time? Most people cannot do that, I say most because you may be one of those people who can. I honestly wouldn't train to make that happen every time as you may have a situation where a round moves out of position as the magazine is slammed into the magazine well and causes a malfunction.
This is great info, my only issue is a personal one. My CCW is a m&p9c wth an APEX FSS trigger kit. The slide "lock", is exactly that. It's a lock. I cannot actually use it to release the slide. It won't do it. I've tried and tried and tried. It won't budge. Therefore I'm forced to go over the top. So I train that way. With all my guns. Because if I decide to only go over the top with my carry gun but my other pistols I use the slide lock, I would just assume that in a stressful situation, I may actually get confused cause myself more delay. If I could get the thing to release the slide, I would use that method though because I really see it's benefit. Just my personally weapon actually won't allow it. I'm not sure if it's a m&p compact specific issue or just my specific gun. My full size m&p has no issue with releasing the slide with the slide lock.
I will also add that, though not always applicable, if you're reloading, you should be moving to cover/concealment or at least not standing still. If you just dumped 10-15 rounds in a bad guy and you need to reload to get rounds on the same target or a different target, your in a world of shit and movement is more detrimental to livelihood than racking a slide or using a slide lock. Lol. If you have to run to cover before, during or after a reload, pretty sure grabbing a slide with sweaty hands is gonna be easier and more efficient than trying to manipulate a small button. At this point in time, time is probably not your biggest concern.
I think I remember seeing in other videos that Shrek is a lefty - any tips for Lefties on guns that do not have ambi slide releases? I know I've seen John shoot a CZ P-07 which does not have an ambi slide release but has a oversized slide release so its easy to hit with my left index finger. However on a gun like a Glock 19 with its small slide release, I have trouble with the index finger of my left hand. Would you come over the top or reach under with the right (support) hand and actuate it with the right index/middle finger?
I'm a lefty and use a G19. try this, after you insert fresh mag with your right hand continue the motion and slide across your left hand grip and underneath your trigger finger (which should be at at rest on side of the frame) with your right hand index finger using it to depress the slide release. This makes it very quick to reestablish your 2 handed grip.
How is the draw considered a fine motor skill? I would consider that a gross motor movement. I think of fine motor skill meaning fingers on buttons, not whole hands on handgrips. Thoughts?
The clearing of the shirt, the specific (read: 'master' or 'firing') grip, the presentation to a specific point, the meeting of both hands in space on the grip, the indexed trigger finger. Calling it one fine motor movement isn't quite right, it's more like 4 to 7 fine motor movements.
Imagine how hard it would be to fluently grab and draw a pistol from concealment if your hand was partially asleep or really stiff. Pretty hard, right? Fine motor skill. As an example of a gun-handling grosser motor skill, how hard would it be to run the bolt on an ak if your hand was partially asleep or stiff? Ez, whenever you like as fast as you like. Gross motor skill. At least that's how I understand the matter, I'm sure other people have their own ideas.
Imo the simplest way to categorize things is that a gross motor skill is an action which is achievable without being able to properly use your sense of touch. For example, if you wanted to kick your leg through the nearest drywall. Another example is if you were holding a rifle and needed to bash a guy's head in with it.
There is no better way without a doubt. Over the top is just a new over dramatic way of achieving the same end result that adds more movement and time. It looks cool though, right? 😅
Every handgun has its slide stop/ release in different location , they all release over the top I think that was more the point than fine motor skills. I'll still come over the top. -1 point for using the word operator almost made it it through the video without using it.
Most handguns have the slide stop in nearly the same location. Don’t believe everything you hear from certain MagPul instructors. That same instructor will tell you that the pistol slide stop requires fine motor skills that you lose in a stressful situation, but you should train like a superior athlete so you can use you fine motor skills to push the slide stop/release on a carbine.
One thing I have seen is that a lot of people who grab the slide don't practice it, meaning they suck at it, meaning extra-slow reloads. You can't pretend the technique is advantageous if you can't do it properly on demand. Obviously I mean no disrespect to Nate, he doesn't have this problem.
Eh it’s really a slide lock not a slide unlock. Also, how do you clear a malfunction? That’s right over the top. Rather have one motion for reloads and malfunctions as appose to two. Just me. You can be sick with anything through training.
Shooting to slide-lock does happen in citizen self-defense but to have to reload and keep shooting is very unlikely. Competition shooters should by all means shave the 1/10 of a second by using the slide release but in self defense I want what works all the time, no matter what, for any gun. Over the top for me.
When rounds are impacting around you and you're returning fire under duress its difficult to keep track of how many rounds you fired until you reach slide lock.
Shrek, what about lefties? What about folks who run multiple pistols (Sig, Glock, S&W, Beretta, H&K, 1911, FN, all have slide stop lever / release in a different spot). Over the top will put all of these gun into battery, whereas support hand has to find all these different spots of the various guns. Having said that, i am sure your preferred way is faster on a shot timer. Another argument would be to talk about the smiler motion to clear a malfunction.....tap/rack/assess. Another thing about the Glock, is for some reason (like a reload in the dark or gear is spilled out in front of you) if an empty mag was inserted into the Glock you can drop the slide on an empty chamber, whereas the over the top method will not allow the slide to go forward. This would alert the shooter to a problem before having to hear "click." One thing is for sure....this is all about training or retraining. Your videos are always informative and fantastic!
John is left handed as am I. He showed me the best left handed manipulations at his class. It is money!!!! Take his class or send him a video via Gun Fighter University.
This method is faster on video / timer. I'd definitely recommend his class or a video via GunFighter University. He looks for areas he can save you time through efficiency in getting your shots off faster. As a righty I saw on video my thumb was right next to the slide release but I spent another .25 or so going for the slide then the other problem was grip. I married my grip at the last second catching back up with my other hand forcing myself to spend a little longer getting the sight where I wanted it. Where as hitting the slide release and marrying my grip before pushing back out I could get the shots off sooner and more accurately.
I came across that video just now. As much as I like and appreciate Shrek he is IMO misleading here. He's supposing in the vid that his purpose is to address "thumb press vs over the top rack" debate. But the debate is actually "firing hand vs rack" so he kinda debates a straw man he just created not the real issue. And then he's selling AR manual of arms to you. Using it certainly makes it harder to induce malfunction than using your firing hand thumb, but it doesn't work for left hand application or across many different handguns as their slide lock placements differ slightly. I have issues also with calling "pointing the gun" a fine motor skill. The whole ordeal of shooting is a complex motor skill which means it requires both - gross and fine motor skills in coordination. We can point at stuff from very early age and it doesn't require much, it's very natural. Acquiring the sights is a training issue, and takes alot of training to be able to do that under stress (untrained and recreational shooters simply can't) . And trigger press - even if you slap it like there's no tomorrow but still hold the gun really strong you'll def hit close targets.
mastalee I'm a lefty, on my 19, my support hand index finger is at the slide lock as the mag is inserted. Simply hit it and rotate to grip as you push the gun out. Just as guick.
EMAN1911 but this method would be the quickest cause your trigger finger will be ready to fire once u let that slide go home. I was just pointing it out.
All excellent points, but it's different for a lefty. Shrek, can you do a video geared towards how US lefties can train? I know you will, because your wrong handed too.
I'm left handed, that technique won't work for me. No I'm not putting money in my guns to change the slide release. I don't practice the over the top either.
