For what it's worth, he's gotten various awards and honorary degrees from colleges (including Columbia University) and official arts and Jewish organizations - plus a MacArthur "Genius Grant" fellowship. He's also lauded by many critics of "serious" and "difficult" music, and has been canonized as a major musician/composer/bandleader in Western "classical" art music, jazz *and* punk/hardcore/thrash. Can't get much more praise than that, I don't think.
John Zorn : On The Edge 1259pm 11.5.23 the steve albini of the jazz world as opposed to albini's mastership along with his colleague's love of funkadelia... ahahaha... he's certainly out there. but i doubt he's cornered the market in the weird and wonderful. thebest offering he's been involved with being: torture garden. that is all. thanks.
is he wearing a napalm death-shirt? that's what i like about him: napalm death, kh stockhausen, mozart, ornette, sex pistols, korean...what ever music... ....fascinating guy!
@drwinkle101 Also, this kind of music (IMHO) increases the sensitivity of the "educated" ear, because it teaches you to hear the nuances inherent in raw sound, and hearing the way those sounds interact with each other can teach you a lot about the underlying principles of common practice music. Doesn't mean you have to like it of course, but remember that not liking something doesn't make it bad either. Also, how does one "play music properly?"
@0ooiioo0 yeah he is alive and i find it even more bizarre to follow what he is creating while he is alive, cause we know that his work will last (some of his pieces / or his work as a whole, as an example of artistic productivity!); i cant help thinking, when seeing him and co playing live: 'is that a masterpiece we're hearing now? / that will be venerated when he is not here anymore?..' it's strange; he creates so much that he is obviously an alien in the present!
OMG!!! Wayne Krantz @5:30 w/ the red Ibanez!he's influenced also by John Cage & the whole 'chance' stuff, as well as Miles' electric period.Very telling what he says: in the end this ensemble is more about the musician's personalities, then about the 'music' proper.
@thinkingevil You are probably right. Painkiller was groundbreaking, but is over. Hey, we can't all hang in there while an artists tests their next batch of tricks. John did great work in the 90's, but other artists lead the pack today.
I would think the deal is that the WAY in which people retell their dreams is often meaningless and boring. If you tell it like it's abstract, then it's going to be. However, this is not entirely free from structure - that should be as evident as the notion that a storm is as natural as peaceful clouds are. This is not "unconscious product", but if it were - that is something that could be brought to light for examination. (cont. below)
@drwinkle101 I don't think that musical meaning stems from structure at all. Structure may help one comprehend a piece of music, but individual moments can be incredibly meaningful, regardless of the context.
@drwinkle101 You're quite incorrect about unconventional players being unable to play or write "properly." Marc Ribot would be an excellent case in point. In many circumstances, the players who abandon tradition do so because they know it inside out and want something new. I.e. Webern and Ligeti knew Renaissance counterpoint as well as almost anybody in history, yet they chose to go a different route. Also, check Zorn and Frith in "step across the border part 2" if you doubt his abilities.
Personally, I feel like finding John Zorn is like stumbling across Frank Zappa all over again.......as far as enjoying the music as opposed to appreciating WHAT it is and where it's come from could of course be worlds apart, but hell if it's to be dismissed. I'd be ashamed of the general public if such open minds were to be cast aside.
@mmlight I seldom leave comments... but you're wrong. Keep in mind, you're perspective is subjective! And to make a sweeping negative public wash of his fervent and consistent work is... a drag....
@mmlight i agree. i like the book of angels series, but that's because he gives the bands a certain amount of freedom to interpret his pieces as they wish. otherwise, he has been mostly repeating his ideas for the last decade. his classical music has improved i think, but everything else has gone backwards, and i don't understand why he still insists his music is avantgarde when it's just more of the same. it's even more puzzling than his idea that avantgarde should be a 'genre'.
John Zorn : On The Edge 11.5.23 1303pm strange, isn't it....? they begin to rehash a certain set of notions they had - musicians, writers, even comedians.... as though they could not build on those certain set of notions... his way of composing reminds me of that south American guy Copernicus and his free for all style of music making...
@thinkingevil Yes, I could be 'wrong', but John seems to have ran out of steam. I don't hear collectors talk about his records like in the 90's. Glad he created The Stone. Maybe not much of a fan anymore. It's okay, I and many of us already spent our money on his records. btw: His site could use this crazy thing called 'music samples' before we buy. Same with Mode records. Come on, it's 2011 for god's sake!
@mmlight I hear you. To me tho, this makes you sound like a frustrated and expectant consumer as opposed to a patient audience of an artist's ebb and flow and personality etc. You're displeased, but John's work will yet be long and it's merits will see true light in plenty time, to your eyes or not.
@mmlight maybe Zorn owns his own apartment? ;-) But yes, i agree, a lot of musicians and artists can no longer afford to live in N.Y proper. e.g Abel Ferrara, Michael Gira etc. Marc Ribot write an interesting article about the way the scene is changing downtown and how the future looks bleak. it was quite depressing really.
@Drblooter99 Zorn can swing, and he can play the sax better then anybody. Only, swing and playing the sax the traditional way, is only a small part of what he does. You are terribly mistaken.
John zorn for pres most def ,, I think our music industry needs to be re-evaluated - this guy should be getting ( artist of the year awards ) here what im saying? everything is all half -ass backwards and all the credit goes to the phony people .
It tells us a lot more that we don't already know than the shit we've heard a million times. I mean, if we could actually SEE the unconscious processes of a person, we might understand their affliction, no? And as someone indoctrinated into classical music from a young age, I can tell you that a lot of inspiration comes from the abandonment of convention. And it's not like the devil gets inside you when you veer away from convention and structure, this stuff doesn't stick to you (like Top 40).
@Xzariox Madness -- and I have worked with the insane -- is noisy, dirty, and simultanously both boring and dangerous. I did not say that Zorn is mad. I said that to abandon structure in a work of art is to abandon conscious meaning, and this leads to meaningless disorder comparable to that in dreams. The idea that dreams are a kind of madness was expressed by Kant, Schopenhauer, Freud, Jung. Kant said: "The lunatic is a wakeful dreamer".
@RappoldXJay It's a mistake because it encourages him to make more music that desensitises and regresses the educated ear. I believe that players who abandon consistency in form and rhythm could not write and play music properly in the first place.
@RappoldXJay Bailey's working class. So what? Even if we assume a "rule" of avant types from relatively privileged backgrounds, rules have exceptions. Zorn's mother was a university professor and his father ran a classy hairdressing business. Zorn played guitar, piano, flute and saxophone as a child. He could do this because his parents bought the instruments. He went to Webster, a private university, because his parents paid for it. And I'm sure Zorn's crew in this vid aren't from the Bronx.
@lamentate07 The period of radical invention from New York's base of talented musicians is over. Not for lack of talent but economics and social climate. Money dominates culture now. Artists will continue to create but the margins of support wane. Hard to create natural events when the culture is having 'health issues'..
@lamentate07 I'm sure the main thing John cares about now is paying the rent in NYC. Some of the musicians have said NY is more expensive to live in than ever. Happened to SF and drove away much of it's artist talent. But to John's music, I'm sure he is ready to take the check for anything at this point.
Zorn and Derek Bailey are free themselves from structure and rhythm, just as you fall asleep and dream. Other people's dreams are mad, meaningless and boring, and so is music like this. It's great for them to play, but we make a mistake thinking such an unconscious product is worth listening to.
@RappoldXJay Musicians like Zorn are niche, but make a living from producing rubbish while other people get a pittance for cleaning the studio toilets and other useful work. I believe two things: that Zorn and Bailey were limited musicians who went "avant" not for money but for approval and prestige in a small, murky pond. Second: people who claim to enjoy this stuff have the idea that they are going "beyond jazz", or "post jazz", which makes them feel even cleverer.
I like Johns music, and how much of it he has made, but it seems his best work is behind him now. We have soundtrack and trad jewish rock stuff. Fine, but not memorable like Naked City or Painkiller. No, John has become a party to all and master of none.
I hear ya , its just the industry has the culture all backwards is all im saying. They praise fashion instead of art then confuse and brainwash the public about whats what .
@RappoldXJay Pre-experimental Bailey the session player did mundane pop for Kathy Kirby and the like, hardly "accomplished". As to Zorn's proper music, it's undistinguished and boring to me. My central point is that people like Bailey can play and write in formal ways, but they knew they weren't competition for their contemporaries, so they got "subversive" and deformalised. Same thing in unreadable post-structural novels by writers who were not much good at plot, character and dialogue.
@RappoldXJay I play a bit of amateur jazz, can't play fast solos, and don't do fusion. One possible source of resentment you left out: I might not like middle class tossers having had all the advantages of family financial support and a proper musical education, who squander it doing -- yes again! -- rubbish like this.
