Jonathan Haidt | What Doesn't Kill You Makes You Weaker |  

We in America tend to teach kids avoidance, unless in a group, then they become bullies. We don't teach them the hard stuff, like standing up for yourself and not going blindly with the crowd. We aren't teaching them that it takes hard work and hardship to develop true character.

I think we have a lot of wounded people living in fear who are trying to make us conform to their beliefs so that they can feel safe. Our world has become a gigantic safe space

Also, suffering is unavoidable. People are doing everything they can to avoid suffering, but sometimes you just have to face it and endure it.

Oddly enough, I think bullying is more rampant and mean-spirited than when I was growing up in the '60s and '70s. Adults are so controlling that kids find new ways and meaner ways to bully each other. It's the kid who sticks up for himself that they put on Ritalin, nowadays, because he has "anger issues." Teachers are more bullying than they used to be, and it's all in the name of being "nicer," and "nice" is defined in terms of political ideology. When I was growing up, everybody knew who the bullies were, and they were quickly put in their place by other kids. Usually it just took one bloody nose. Nowadays, the schoolyard bully provokes violence in someone without as much emotional armor and then turns right around and cries to the teacher about how mean the bullied kid is. When I was growing up, the toughest kids in school weren't bullies, but were the guys who beat the shit out of bullies. And EVERYbody teased everybody else. If you weren't being insulted, then you weren't respected. If you were weak or not as socially acceptable, you might be ignored or marginalized, but the general population of kids despised anyone picking on somebody weaker. NOWadays, they seem to LOVE finding someone to target and harass, MERCILESSLY, until the kid snaps, at which point the bullies go crying to the teacher. Nowadays, kids don't have many opportunities to interact without adult supervision, which point Haidt makes. But I think it makes them MORE vicious whenever they're NOT being supervised. And more helpless, simultaneously. Nobody's a bigger cry-baby than an Antifa member with a skinned knee. "Defund the police" and "Call the cops" all in the same, un-self-aware breath.

wouldve been good if the name of the authors book was put in the notes somewhere

*"It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance"* _~Thomas Sowell_

Ag industry is not exactly a success story.

Don't know why Jonathan Haidt thinks that teasing was a purely English working class thing. It was a middle (or at least upper-middle) and upper class thing too. Probably still is under the veneer of woke-ism.

Does this work with other allergins like poison ivy? Let your kids walk through poison ivy so they wont have to worry later. Dont worry about deer tics. Let your kid get lime disease it will make him stronger. I hope no one takes this guy too seriously.

Some viruses knock out the immune system. I agree with his point but it is not absolute.

New York safer than ever?. Wow, talking about denial in the upper IQ atmosphere. I do like these talks, even they seems to come from Far LEft.

Unfortunately, human (and indeed animal) brains are not immune systems. The notion of post traumatic growth is little more than a fantasy, not grounded in any real scenarios in real life. When trauma occurs, PTSD is a common response, and is notoriously difficult to treat. Do those who are naturally weaker/ less resilient deserve to suffer more for having weaker genes? If so, that is social darwinism. Consider how animals in the wild are much more stressed out than those sheltered in well cared for zoo. The claims here are made by die hards of the darwinian order. We have no moral obligation to accept suffering as inevitable. It is imperative that we end it altogether. Hedweb.com

John Anderson is what politicians used to look like: reasoned, well-educated, and civil. Haidt is a refreshing and idiosyncratic voice in Academia pointing out the obvious: running away from challenges (viruses, new ideas, the unknown) leave them unsolved and you untested. Only a few generations ago, our forefathers were pioneers, carving the American nation out of a wilderness with hand tools and few medicines. Try to imagine today's snowflakes in those circumstances, forced to be self-reliant, or die. Our elite universities are turning out graduates who are like hot-house flowers, unable to make it in the rough and tumble of the real world, and therefore only capable of surviving in the hot-house of Academia. Fortunately, we are still turning out young people with the spirit of pioneers -- but they aren't reciting the ideology of identity politics or trembling in fear of a virus.

A father wears many hats. One of the most important is *sparring partner*.

boy, this wont go down well in america, however, i totally agree.

When I was in elementary school we had huge peanut butter cookies as a desert item for lunch. They were my favorite.

Nature forged you to be what you are for a reason. Everything required hard lessons. We evolved the ability to clot after being cut, clearly there's a lot of resilience built into us. Yet nobody understands that mental resilience came along with the package. We never would've made it if we couldn't cope with the stress and hardships of survival, removing challenge from life is suicide not survival.

So the moral of the story is... what doesn't kill you DOES actually make you stronger, then.

I have two girls. And I can clearly see how necessary my husband is to my girls ability to take criticism and teasing jokes. Naturally I want to say: don't say that! To him. But my girls love it. They worship him. It's not quite as funny when I say it. So I leave that to him. And I get the hugs when in need of comfort. I'm so happy I've come to this realisation with the help of people like haidt and farrell. Thank you!

From what I can see it's Governments that dictate all these stupid ways of avoiding things

The word you're looking for is TEMPERED. (="anti-fragile")

Wonderful channel. Thank you.

My favourite family in one of my years of teaching were upset when the school board implemented a peanut ban...they made big noises because as they said by creating a false bubble for their son who was highly allergic to peanuts was not helping him learn about his own safety. They kept saying how once their child leaves the bubble he will be on his own, so best to teach him how to keep himself safe instead of relying on others to keep him safe. Common sense that is non existent today.

Such important messages here:) I want to shout them from the roof tops!

I asked Taleb about anti-fragility just applying over a range, and he wasn't interested. But it's true that even anti-fragile things can be broken. For example, bullying (not the occasional insult) seems to leave people in worse shape.

The problem is that America is a culture of extremes. Haidt’s analysis intrigues me in that it’s measured, but that doesn’t cut it in our culture. “Balance” isn’t a virtue here. I grew up in the 80s, a very conservative time when assholes were given free reign in the hope we would overcome the Vietnam syndrome. Now, we’re in a very liberal time when assholes are given free reign in the hope that we will overcome the Reagan years. It’s an endless cycle of one group trying to control another.

Obesity has little to do with how much one eats, but what one over indulges in. BTW, I've just subscribed and find JA's channel really compelling.

Jonathan Haidt looks disillusioned or as if he's given up, here. I see that weary look on a number of philosophers and journalists, I like to listen to, nowadays.

A soft upbringing = a useless citizen. Without strife, you get those incapable of dealing with adversity. That is what that phrase means.

The saying is "what doesn't DESTROY me, makes me stronger." Just like "those whom gods destroy, they first make mad." As in "insane."

My mate smashed his Kawasaki into the side of a car. It didn't kill him but he's much impaired.

Duh!!! Why don't people get this? IMHO

Can John replace Scott Morrison asap please?

6:28 -->. I wuz the kid that taught my friends to not run across the street without looking. "Officer Jerry" even went to the other schools to tell my tale of woe and used it as a teachable moment. My gift to you GenX, we made it!

This is excellent! We grow stronger through life's challenges no matter what age we are. I was teased from kindergarten on for things about my looks of which I had no control. The teasing taught me not to take myself too seriously, to laugh at myself and most of all to treat others with kindness and understanding. These important lessons shaped my life and would never have been learned if I had been insulated and protected every step of the way.

The most meaningful and beautiful stories have to do with human adventure, human risk - and ultimately - human sacrifice; for what is true and good (i.e. for Love).

Like all aphorisms, the rule has sufficient exceptions to make it meaningless. In my experience, a series of dire events that came close but didn't kill me, certainly made me weaker. And now with PTSD, the struggle to get back to my former level of resilience is very real and a daily effort. As to kids, the role of a parent is to help their children evaluate risk in their behaviour and guide them towards taking calculated risks so their range of skills and experience ever increases.

The problem with Nietzsche's 'makes me stronger' maxim is the word 'whatever'. Lot of stuff can do permanent harm, easily, including 'good' things when taken to extreme. The word 'whatever' has given license to abusers and tyrants for over a century now to do all sorts of damage.

The education system is inarguably the largest and most influential matriarchy in the United States, followed, arguably, by the medical establishment and the Democratic Party. This inculcated fragility is largely a result of well-meaning toxic femininity.

Well sure lots of warriors develop PTSD and can't stand the battlefield anymore.

There were also those of us who had to keep our mouths shut so we didn't offend mommy's sheltered snowflakes form playground insults. It's sad that no one has any grit and self-respect.

Unfortunately I think some of these people who need safe spaces needed a better childhood most likely and they are trying to make up for it now and implicating well intentioned people along the way.

Women tend to be more safety conscious whilst men tend to be more risk taking. Any chance there is a causation in the cotton wool wrapped, nanny state we seem to be living in these days and the rise of women in positions of power?

'What doesn't kill me makes me stronger; and what kills me makes me incredibly strong." - Ernst Jünger.

It's hormesis vs. iatrogenics.

So spare the rod spoil the child! We came all this way - we have went so far down this path - we can go *hey those dudes with the cross and wrath had a point*

Not giving in is what makes you stronger

6:45 not sure about the crime rate in NYC though up 287% since last year... ;)

America has lost its sense of humor. The vast majority now can't even take a joke.

"NYC is safer" haha I can tell this is an old video.......

I never liked what does not kill you makes you stronger means the battle did not take its tole!

Thanks for this conversation John. Seems simple and logical but somehow the 'experts' got it so very wrong for so very long. And this is just one area of dietary advice where they failed. They have stuffed it all up making sick diabetic carbohydrate addicts out of us all. I saw something on the ABC the other night where they were talking specifically about this cause of peanut allergies. What struck both my wife and I dumb was when the 'experts' also suggested that mothers supplement their babies diet with fresh food. We nearly died with sadness. Seems packet food is now more normal than fresh food. Big food and marketing agencies are still winning.

1:13 "...and we could add western" I'm not ready to buy that.

Arabic has the word "Faisal" for not fragile

7:25 Yeah! Tell it like it is, big ears!

What downcast kill you can maim you.

IF MASKS WORK, WHY CAN'T WE???

Brave new world

Great points boys!

9:51 - I agree with much of what Haidt says, but disagree here. He’s careful to qualify what constitutes “bullying” versus “teasing” or “ribbing”, and as someone who was bullied by multiple boys from ages 5 - 15, I agree with him. However, regarding “competition”, some people - whether they are 5 or 55 - simply aren’t built for that. In America, *everything* is a competition, which isn’t good. At the same time, it makes things worse when there is no clear winner in that competition. The ability to *lose* in a competition can show how *pointless* competition is, not how *necessary* . Conservatives want to force everyone to compete so they can weed out the losers. Liberals want to force everyone to *win* , but that still requires a competition to take place. What about those of us who don’t care?

What (a stressful thing) doesn't kill me may make you stronger or weaker. It depends on the thing, and upon me. If I got stronger it was (almost) certainly because I was stressed (or reinforced) and not because I was shielded from that stress. A : It did not kill me & ~A : it did kill me B : I got stronger & ~B : I got weaker The premise is A -> B : "What does not kill me makes me stronger" : {FF:t FT:t TF:f TT:t} or ttft is true while A -> ~B is : "What does not kill me makes me weaker" {FF:t FT:t TF:t TT:f} or tttf is false. If something kills me, I am weaker; so, FF:t & FT:f. If something does not kill me I may get stronger or weaker; so, TF:t & TT:t It looks like the proper formulation is A

I suspect that even the APA will acknowledge that the policies many schools and other caretaking institutions have implemented go too far in stigmatizing 'masculine' behavior. This is a common problem that arises when lay people attempt to implement mental health guidelines - they have a tendency to generalize the criteria and apply them too broadly. And I suspect that this problem is exacerbated by the fact that schools in the US are overwhelmingly staffed by women, and typically politically Progressive women ( @ 90% female, even 95%+ in many settings ). Without some countervailing perspectives, it's very easy for the environment to become explicitly anti-male.

Totally onboard, however... to use COVID as an example - what doesn't kill you, often does make you weaker. And this point needs to be explored in a good faith steelmanning of the progressive argument. They are not wrong about trauma... and the phenomena is not well understood. I say this as a genuine PTSD and ASD case and am well aware how different I am from the snowflake archetype but babies and bathwater chaps. Babies and bathwater.

Good mate of mine grew up an undersized half-Indian Geordie in his local comprehensive in the 70s. And it was the making of him. He learned the power of his own wit and humour and never looked back.

I think both sides of this aphorism can suffer from a failure of imagination. In some cases it is a mater of a failure to imagine a sufficiently horrible trauma, or in other cases a mater of a failure to imagine a better future after a trauma. Spend a year in Syrian dungeon with non-stop care from their most expert torturers, it is unlikely that will make you stronger psychologically or physically. There are some great triumph over trauma stories, though even people like McCain, who turned his survival story into a career, still had their demons. But neither should one assume that some minor trauma, or even relatively major trauma will inevitably make one weaker.

Beautiful landscapes are ones that have been honed by the weather over centuries. Life should hone the soul, and overprotecting the young is to permanently damage that child, or at least disadvantage them in their ability to make a life for themselves.

Most interesting video.

I'm a British granny, but watched 13 reasons Why at the insistence of my granddaughter. It gave me much to think about and makes the same points as this discussion.

Saved this to my Stuff I Need playlist

Yes, polio proved the headline strap line.

2:34 Adapt. Adaptation. Adaptiveness. Adept. Malleable. Plastic. Plasticity. Intelligent. Intelligence. Yes John, we do have English vocab and we do live in the real world. But I'm sure your cloistered academic readership will benefit from your "insights" and "wisdom".

School administrators are defining minor conflict as "bullying" so that they can solve the non-issues and then claim that they take bullying seriously.

Great interview...thx

🤓🧐🤣😂

Meh...

Old boring information in the first 5 minutes.

I really want John to do an interview in a flanno and some King Gees.