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Tokenism kills. No one actually cares that there’s a gay character in something, they care when that character is there solely to be the gay character and has no development and a shitty personality.
Well they aren’t wrong don’t like don’t buy you shouldn’t complain and yes they probably know it will fail because of it but their morals and what they stand for are still there.
@@kiraslife329 I will complain If they want good stories As the costumer Give them what they want But I say As the writer take your politics else where
That is true, but the problem not mentioned here is that comics were on a downward trend before these comics came out. So its not that the comics coming out caused it, its that people didn't like that they where not being specifically catered to anymore and threw a hissy fit, while the comics were on a downward trend.
This is why Japan does so well, because if they want to tell a story about gay men, they write an amazing story to accompany their sexuality, so their characters are more than their identities.
It's cause all of Japan's work aren't done by a company there done by authors with their own stories and own series like jojo db and one piece. They all have one author or main story righted and mangaka so they can make a clear story for the sake of the readers.
@@jozillaarevalo1747 Actually mate, Manga and anime are actually done by companies. Sure we have the authors making and designing but they publish their stuff under a company or editorial house. (Like Shonen Jump for example) And its the editors who tell the authors what to do or not to do. Many authors had been blocked on doing what they want by the editors. (Akira Toriyama was a victim to this, dragon ball would had been way different if editor would had let Toriyama do as he pleased, which why Toriyama hated his editor and made fun of in several mangas). And anime are made by companies like toei, Kyoto Animation, etc. The same goes for Marvel and DC. They have authors who does things being published by the company and the company states what to do or not to do.
The same can be said about the tv and movie industries. They are trying so hard to make everyone feel represented (which there is nothing wrong with trying to do) that they are letting the quality of the final product suffer
No. There is something wrong with it. It's a false representation of real life. Depending on where you live... just how "diverse" is your neighborhood? I've got 30 houses on my block. The reality is that nobody is black/brown, gay, Trans, Asian, Latino... and I wouldn't care if they were. What I'm saying is that... unless you're in a major city.... it's not reality. So... it's OK to not have EVERY persona, race, sexuality, all wrapped into one small group. That's not how it really is.
Their issue doesn’t come from having representation and diversity, it’s putting it before everything else. For example, people don’t want a strong female character, they want a strong character who just so happens to be female. Give a woman as many crazy and insane super powers as you want, but it can’t save bad writing, but give any character the same powers and actually good writing, and it’ll be a good character regardless of the gender.
I see where you come from, and I agree, but your words are not the most clear on what you are trying to say. I'm referring to the last part of your post, the rest is good. Took me a sec to understand what you where going for.
@@Justcallmeaqua420this is the correct perspective. The problem isn't diversity, its the monetary incentives and lack of care. It also has a little bit to do with people being bigotted and in denial about it. And most people aren't used to queer stories and representations of certian cultures, so they aren't able to consume the media as easily as they would normally(which causes them to not like the content as much). This also means that the writers are writing stories involving things that haven't had much representation in media and thus, are charting new territory(relative to the medium). Comicgate was a political movement of reactionary, obsessive people. It was extremely reductive and failed to adress the actually issues with the approach that major comic companies took towards diversity. Also if you actually do an analysis of the writing quality of comics, you'll find that the quality has always been scuffed in one way or another. Reading the few volumes of several series is rough(especially the ones that come after stan lee handed writing over to other people). And the specific writing quality issues that were brought up during comicgate, have been present in the comics since mid 2000's. When you actually take time to analyze the context of the whole situation, you find out that comicgate was an overdo demand for better quality, that was being fueled by unwarranted hatred towards the inclusion of people. The movement failed to make change by making the whole thing about identity politics and associating itself with online extremist political groups.(it is considered a failure because it failed to make change).
I agree with you in principle, but the thing is, I don't think a lot of the 'characters' today ARE characters. So many of them are demographic avatars, or fictional soapboxes for the writer to preach from.
@@jern75bad writing for the character, not just story. If you write a character to be more than just the gay one the character is written well and develops well Otherwise its not. Simple and easy to follow right?
Actually there’s another option you can your dreams come true with crowdfunding, Far-Left Lunatics tried the cancel both of Mike Baron’s Thin Blue Line and Private American GNs and they still prevailed, so you don’t need the big 2 when you can do it independent😎
How tho? It seems to me that no matter what, comic fanboys get butthurt when someone who isn't a straight white guy talks about their identity. Do you mean that minority charachters shouldn't ever discuss their lives and their identities?
That's why I love reading manwhas, manhuas, and mangas. Stories are diverse I'll be it few years ago the rise of regression, reincarnation and the isekai genre really made me think if it was going down hill but I reminded myself it's just a genre and My god the story and art are amazing.
I'm 58. This comes and goes in waves. I've seen this multiple times over the years. Give it a few years, and things will be going strong again. Everybody's just getting burnt out on super heros right now. The market is saturated with supers at the moment, and we just need a break.
Totally agree. my great Aunt (R.I.P) who actually got me into comics said the same would eventually happen again years ago. Honestly don't have shit to do with diversity and inclusion as anyone that actually picked up a comic from over the years know that they have always been political and leaning towards moderate to progressive ideology. Lol the whole thing remind me of another video about somebody complaining about gay characters and a black female lead in Star Trek Discovery and how "the progressive agenda is ruining star trek from the original series". Was like dude you must only watched the first few frames of it only because Star Trek have been the most progressive franchise in entertainment from episode one.
I have 2 points 1-Having a diverse cast is generally a good thing. But putting that above writing characters is not. Making people one not because ‘I’m overweight’ or ‘I’m gay’ is often more offensive. 2-you can’t force it. If you force “diversity”, it’s gonna feel phony.
That second point I don’t agree with, ultimately everything in writing is forced to be there via the author. The reason it feels forced or phony is because the writers focuses on that trait often above all else.
My friends asked me why I stopped reading american comics and switched to manga. "What do they do more?" they asked. And I answered "What do they do? What do they DON'T! They don't give a shit about minorities, for one. If a character is black, gay, disabled, whatever - it's because he IS. It's not his turning point, it doesn't make him essential to the story." A few examples: in the robot anime "Dragonar", the pilot of the D2 Long-range unit is black. Does anyone give a shit? No. In the manga "Kamen no maid guy" the mysterious suitor of the main heroine is revealed to be a lesbian girl. Does anyone give a shit? Yes, but only because she's a covert pervert and one of the many victims of the titular Maid Guy's antics. Oh, and the Maid Guy himself is a crossdresser - not because of sexual preferences, but because he's a maid and has to dress the part, despite being an asexual brute that looks like a cross between Conan and a piranha. In the manga and anime genre, being a minority, a token, whatever you are, doesn't make you the good guy OR immune to mistreatment. You're a character, period. Your purpose is to carry the story, and if that makes you the butt of a joke the fans don't get to call persecution, because the mangaka who created the character DOES. NOT. GIVE. A. SHIT. And this is good.
@@KuribPlays i might, i didn't think it had anything to do with woke culture, but wanted to ask someone who may have read it to confirm. I was confused on why the dude used it as an example of woke culture.
A reminder that one of the most critically acclaimed comics, Neil Gaiman's Sandman, had an arc about transgendered characters in 1991, and had many LBGT character. In a time when such a thing was more taboo. It's not politics "killing" comics. It's the fact Western comic publishers haven't found a way to translate the sales of movie tickets to comic books. In a large part because 60+ years of stories aren't easy for new comers to get into. (Which would be a problem if comics actually told their stories in real time and had mantle passes, but comics fans hate change.)
I have no problem with inclusivity in comics. Obviously everyone should be able to enjoy these stories and characters. But that’s the thing these people seem to have forgotten. EVERYONE. Not just the people they are pandering to. And not even that. Even the characters who have been around for years, like Spider-Man have been getting fucked in the ass as of late.
It’s almost as if comic books have been a dying industry for decades and the only reason people cared about the companies was the intellectual properties being used in films. And now that most of the popular ones have been used up, people don’t care as much??
Being more inclusive and adding diversity to superhero comics is fine, and it should happen. The problem is that for the most part, it's been handled disingenuously by just marketing it as diverse and leaving that as the whole point. Jaime Reyes and Kamala Khan did not become runaway success characters because they were JUST Hispanic and Muslim, respectfully. They had substance in addition to that. There was more to them that the readers could grab onto than just a ham-fisted political message meant to pander to people who just want to have these characters go on cool adventures without sticking their finger in the reader's face.
A good „diverse“ character is the character where you dont even realize/think about their diversity. A character that is gay should not be gay for the sake of being gay. Treat him like any other character for the entirety of the story but than have his love interest revealed to be a guy. Dont make it wierd by constantly inserting it into the story. It has to feel organic, not forced bonus points if you can make the readers figure out the character is gay before actually showing anything making people discuss it online and than losing their shit once its actually revealed (dont make it to obvious though)
This take is so fucking stupid bro what It's ok when straight romance is a foundational component of so many stories, but if someone wants to write gay romance they should keep it as un-mentiomed and inconsequential to the plot as possible? Your take only makes sense if your goal is to live in a world where straight people are the standard norm, and any deviation from that has to be specifically justified and heavily subdued
Great character for me is Sven from voltron I didn’t know he was gay till the end when the last episode show the characters later in life after the show how each pursued and got their life goals and Sven gets married to a man I had no clue
Look at the stats again, the sales have been going up slightly every year. They're not the top dogs anymore, but the American comicbook industry by every metric is about on par with inflation, maybe slightly less sharp in profits compared to the modern value of the USD. No one is flying to the rescue, because no one needs rescue. I have issues with the state of the industry, but those issues stem from the parent companies Warner and Disney treating their comic divisions as nothing but IP farms, forcing writers and artists to work at a break neck pace to produce high page counts as fast as physically possible while paying them little more than minimum wage when they know the fan expectations for those books are much higher than what they are paying for. Some superstars still exist. Those are the ones who dedicate their lives to this. Would you throw away your personal life to excel in a position that pays you McDonald's wages for 80 hr work weeks, and holds the looming threat of blackballing you if you can't keep up because you want to be proud of your work? Would you strive every single day to be the best you can be, when your book will probably get cancelled anyway, you have no benefits or rights as you are a contractor, and your boss might just tell you to do it over again halfway through because they don't like your interpretation or anything that brings progress? It's an industry that mistreats and under pays the people who make it possible. You're complaining about a constellation of issues that all stem from upper management not caring whatsoever, and you're blaming it on a dozen writers, half of which have been fired due to fan reception. You spit on the hard work of modern greats saying they're not worth a damn or have been chased out. They never left. The real reason American comics lag behind manga, is because of these kinds of conversations. You don't like the writer? Don't read them then. Comicsgate has done a wonderful job at making sure comics maintain the stigma of racially obsessed, chronically complaining, overly disrespectful, outright dishonest, and socially impotent man babies. In Japan and South Korea, comics are normal. You can read them on the Subway without getting odd looks. Ever since 'The Seduction of the Innocent', irrational asshats like you and Fred Wortham have been ruining any legitimacy this beautiful art form could achieve. These should be as big as movies if not bigger. In Japan they are, because they're a normal thing, and Japanese comic companies engage in a tactic some call MARKETING. I'm so frustrated with this industry, as I love it, and wish to partake. I'm equally frustrated with people with clear agendas claiming the agendas they don't agree with are ruining it. Shut up, buy a different book, remember which writers you don't like, or keep hate reading your least favorite comics so they get renewed while ones you might actually like get cancelled because you were too busy being pissed that Spider-Man sucks now and gay people exist to even look around and find a fun one. Read 'Do A Powerbomb' or something. This is the stalest and laziest perspective in this whole industry. Just ignore the dumb ones, so I can go back to ignoring you.
The idea: Get new audiences interested in our product. Sure we'll lose some of our buyers, but we'll get more back than we lost! The reality: The new audience we are appealing to isn't interested in buying our product no matter how much it appeals to them, so we sacrificed a bunch of consumers for nothing.
Ummm, all print media has been dying for like 20 years. You're just complaining about a symptom of a larger systemic problem. The comics do suck, but pretty much every other media they're putting out is doing ok, fiscally.
@@Michael_Bancroft Because those books are sold in regular stores and anyone can pick them up. With the companies and people who make those book marketing them to a large audiance. Meanwhile, comic have slowly isolate themselves into one type of store, which limiting. And have been hyper-focused on a fan base that is rapidly outgrowing it compared to the original fanbase of mostly children.
I'm not sure the stories are inherently suffering from forced diversity and virtue signaling. It is usually just the corporate interference. It doesn't matter why they interfere.
I said all of this years ago when I first saw it happening, and it's not only happening to the comics but to the TV shows and movies, it's a slap in the face to the readers and fans that read comics at the beginning and supported TV shows and movies, let's call it what it is, to bring people ( mostly women) into a business that they didn't even read the comic nor supported the movies or shows ,put them in charge and then let them put their own personal ideas and views out is disrespectful to those fans and supporters, heck they even brag that they are destroying something that they really had no interest in
That's definitely a big reason as to why this is happening but let's be honest kids today don't read comics they just watch the endless amounts of superhero movies and series that gets pumped out every year
It’s not really a big reason as to why comics are failing, it’s largely due to the fact that comics are just kind of hard to get into. Manga is popular because you start reading at issue #1, if you wanna get into comics you have to start at the first issue from like the 70’s and then read up until a certain point because some stuff got rebooted/retconned, and then continue reading from issues in 2015
... ummm... Who told you you had to consume comics like that? If you want to read a specific story, but don't wanna be behind on certain details, a lot of people kinda catch up on the internet to fill in any missing context. Pretty simple solution actually.
...the comic industry has always been a niche and declining industry for many reasons. Just off the top of my head, the 90s speculator boom, nearly 70 years of mostly uninterrupted continuities, a glut of D to Z list characters that nobody remembers from both randomly popping up, new ways to consume super hero stories via radio, tv, film, and the internet; all of which sure would cause a sort term rise in readers but would see swift drop off, manga and anime becoming mainstream, the rise of Korean manwha(Korean manga, don't ask me why the different spelling), the failures of the DC movies, and the over success and saturation of the MCU, and not to mention the omnipresent elitism from man children that look at kids wanting to just read Spiderman like they are a threat because comics are for adult men and not everyone!
It's time for a new generation to create good stories and show those idiots what yhe people really want. I say to anyone or any group who can work together or have the means to go for it and make something great. Just one success story could turn the tide and send those parasites back to writing fan fiction.
When companies think a group is bigger than they actually are 😂 that what happens if you see "those" people crying and screaming on the internet (twitter) just to see ohh wow it was just a small group and like 98% are the old fans.
To say "the left killed comics" is stupid. Comic readership was already dwindling before Marvel or DC started pushing for diversity. Not to mention comics that had nothing to do with diversity or lgbt issues also didn't sell. Although, comics pushing these issues also sold poorly, which means the common denominator isn't leftist issues, it's the companies themselves that didn't adapt properly with the times and sold bad books. Look at Spiderman! The reason why fans aren't liking his books right now isn't because he's suddenly gay or swapped races, it's because the character has stagnanted and hasn't progressed in life for 10 years. I'm tired of seeing diversity pushed like it's soley a bad thing. There are no bad characters, only bad writers. A character is only as good as they are portrayed, and characters like The New Warriors we're displayed atrociously.
How narcissistic are these writers to see their industry falling to pieces and think, “ah its the fans who are to blame.” Yeah it’s the people giving you money and support who are the problem, not you, the one whose job it is to get people to buy your products. 🤦♂️
They treated the representation like how you would do it for a kids film. Where it didn't really matter. They had writers that could do good representation and do good stories. It's not just the flanderization of all their representative characters, it's also their continued attempts to do shit new way too soon after failure, and refusal to even do the simple shit like go back to old stuff to ship out what they know works. It wasn't activists, it's was corporate dumbasses that couldn't properly read a chart, sticking their hands too deep into things for such a small sliver of the pie that was never interested in them to begin with. Kinda like the conservative hero comics that tried to get going a few years ago. They both feel into a rut from just sheer stupidity by hurting their own image for bad representation.
What annoys me is that there are some pretty awesome LGBT/Minority characters that DC and Marvel have come up with…..but they’re almost always dropped in favor of over-advertising other heroes. Crush, Stitch, Bunker…. all super dope characters that people know almost nothing about. But because of headlines we all know about Jonathan Kent🤦🏽♂️
I think diversity and inclusion in comics is an amazing thing. I also think the inclusion of gay, bipoc, and woman heroes is great as well. The only reason the industry is in shambles is because it’s target audience, straight white men, don’t support these inclusions. I think if comics were less of a gatekept niche thing, and more accessible they’d be doing at lot better right now. And I’m not even covering the lack of accessibility to new readers.
Makes me kinda happy to see "Far Left" instead of Left wing. Not everyone on the left thinks like that. I fully agree a lot of these changes made the comic book industry and even the film industry is suffering from this crooked sense of thinking. I just think it's important to say that not everyone on the left is a Radical Keyboard warrior, fighting for fictional characters rights when it doesn't matter, just like not everyone on the right is someone who chokes down a swastika every morning for their glorious leader of corruption. It's not always everyone is far left or far right. They just tend to stand out the most.
Comics are expensive and we have near infinite short form content, including that of comic characters, not to mention all of the movies and shows. It’s no surprise the industry has been tanking for years
Marvel and DC: "Nobody is buying our comics!" Meanwhile, in the corner, Goku, Luffy, Deku, and every single Power Rangers is sitting, counting massive stacks of cash before turning to Marvel and DC and going: "Oh, sorry, couldn't hear you over the uproarious cheers of our readers." Focus on storytelling, and not virtual high fives from the people that used to bully comic fans in highschool, and you might see some cash flow.
I'm in Canada and the amount of commercials that feature a biracial lesbian couple is insane. How many biracial lesbian couples make up our population? Just today I saw Remax and TD.
Every Comicbook reader doesn’t care the character is gay or straight you make the characters believable and relatable. That’s why Spider-Man is so successful.
What I see from that graph isn't that American comics are declining because they went woke, they're declining because manga is becoming more popular in America. And they've got "woke" content too.
"Look, i put a black, fat, indepedent, lesbian lady on the book cover and turn her into a character in the story as one of the main character's many side kicks. Her purpose? She is THERE so you readers can acknowledge her existence. Why? Because this is the most important time of our life to finally start knowing that these people exist in our world and we have to appreciate them for that. Aside from that reason, we are also looking for a much vast spread readers from all across the world, except those who we dont like because they dont stand with our agenda and ideology, and with that, we are hoping that the people we're targeting will be happy with our interprentation of them and buy all of our products... Ofcourse, im doing this all in the name of "the freedom of expression". Not for money."
Or it's just that people are sick of the Big Two's storytelling styles: The slavish devotion to what has come before. The tendency to hit the reset button on any and all changes. The retention of elements of their characters' backstories that are increasingly ridiculous over time (like, say, Magneto being a Holocaust survivor, the "super briefs" style of costume, despite few modern readers knowing why so many golden age heroes sported them). People are turning to manga and publishers like Image, where characters are allowed to evolve and grow (and die and stay dead), where the story is dictated more by the creators than the publisher's marketing department. But sure; let's just stick with "Go Woke, Go Broke."
The problem is that multi national media became much much much more easily accessible, less stigmatized, and comics haven't innovated on shit in forever. Chainsaw man exists, you would need to blind me for me to read the 59th superman over a single piece of strike out literature that proves humanities worth from some dude in Sweden who self produces a masterpiece.
So you're not going to acknowledge that comics had Been on a steady decline, like the graph you chose to include? Putting Anything above the writing and plotting and world building is going to lead to shoddy work, full stop, but the fact that i can easily find articles talking about comics being a dying breed back in 2000 to 2005 and not being sure how to fix it means that 'agendas' or diversity were Not solely or even mostly to blame.
Comics books is about adventures and good storyline to help peoples and cool battles of good people vs the bad peoples to balance out the peaceful lives of the non super peoples
I dont want woke politics in comic books. I just want cool characters. And a good story. I dont want a character to exist just for the sake of being gay. I dont want that as the only trait. I dont care if a character is gay as long as they are entertaining or well written. If you introduce a gay character just to have a gay character. It feels forced and no one is gonna want them around
Well considering the fact that I have to spend like twenty bucks to buy essentially a short story that will leave me with another short story that also 20 bucks when I can just pay Disney the same amount of money every month or so and have pretty much unlimited entertainment is another factor of why physical media in general is dying.
It's why they're so mad about manga, manga didn't go full woke and is now thriving. Even in my town, the comic sections in stores like Barnes and noble and Newbury Comics have all been replaced with manga. There's a reason for it lol.
The Comic Book industry put their own fans aside to please a demographic that doesn’t even care about comics. DC and Marvel will have to to something amazing to make it up to the fans.
I read a comic to escape the world and go into another fantastical one. Where people can fly, and do the right thing because it is right. I don't go into it to be plagued with political agenda, no matter what side, and the other several million problems with the world. Not to be lectured about the issues of the world and talked down to. And I feel like I'm not alone here.
And I’m loving it.. when society treats you like shit for just trying to do the right thing… I’d rather watch it burn at this point than keep trying. Let it collapse and the only ones able to rise back up are the ones who actually learned their lesson. It’s happening with the movie industry but at a far accelerated pace due to disneys insistence to drive people away and drive their quality into the ground.
They’ve been chasing that phantom audience since 2014 with that whole girl power Marvel Now stunt. Its 2023 and the result they got was very few women buy comics still but now less men buy comics.
Me personally I could care less .I’m a kid that grew up with comics but I don’t need them to survive ESPECIALLY with the path that the former Big two have chosen for themselves in the name of DIVERSITY . Just remind them who are the forces that REALLY destroyed the US comic market,and it’s not toxic old school fans .
Used to love the X-Men comics. There was always some form of politics or social issues portrayed in them, however those parts worked in concert with the story and didn't replace it.
The thing is, even that certain demography they're trying to pander to still prefer watching anime or read manga (then proceed to call those medias probelmatic bc of fanservice)
TBH, comics are on the decline like newspapers and magazines. There are plenty of comics that from DC and Marvel that don’t have that agenda and still don’t sell.
They are using diversity to avoid having diversity. We aren't getting new diverse characters and stories, just the same story with different race/gender swapping of characters.
Tbh one thing I hate is them making more characters black for zero reason. Can they get some original characters? Are black people not good enough to have an original cast? Seems like it at this point.
