Just How Good Were Pre '64 Model 70 Winchesters, 1960 and 2013 Model 70 Comparison Wrap Up 

I love your channel, Tom. My favorite deer rifle is a 1953 Model 70 standard sporter that I picked up at a little gun shop in Red Lodge, MT. It’s chambered for my favorite cartridge, .270 Win. Every time I hunt with it, I think that Jack O’Connor is looking down approvingly!

Thank you for this video i just inherited a 1945 Winchester model 70 pre'64 in 300 magnum In new condition my grandfather bought in when got out of marines. Only shot a deer on first hunting trip. Then put it away till now. He gave his guns to me. I'm so appreciative he chose me.

Good video Tom. Most people might keep in mind that it’s not very often you get more then three shots at an animal when out in the field so the first three are actually the most important, just my two cents from hunting almost 60 years!

I shoot 125 gr. Core lock in mine,Got mine in 1980. Still have it. Thanks for the video.

Winchester made some great products in the 50's and 60's. You have a pair of fine rifles there. Nice video. Lord, I hear you on lumber prices, and fertilize prizes are off the charts as well.

the pre64 is still arguably the finest hunting rifle ever created. wish I had never sold all mine over the years. 2 30-06s, 2 .270s, 2 .243s, 1 .308. I cry every day over missing them lol.

Thanks Tom. You’re talks are always interesting and knowledgeable

Tom, you tell it like it is. Appreciate your candid approach to your Winchester Model 70 comparison.

Stocking rifles with modern steel barrels that are stress relieved by free floating works. But in alvin Linden's book on stocking rifles, it was common practice at that time to put about 5 pounds upward pressure on the barrel 2 inches from the end of the forearm of the stock. In pre 64 model 70's this was accomished with a screw in the forearm to adjust tension on the barrel. Featherweight barrels may still benefit from this system after the barrel heats up after repeated shots. Proof again the the old time rifle stock makers , Linden, Beisen, Owen were very advanced in their simple and elegant designs. Love the channel, the best TV for sportsmen!!

I really appreciate your approach to explaining the Featherweight and comparison with the Western model.

I have 4 of the new FN Winchesters made in Portugal, they are fabulous! The stock work and metal machining is second to none in production rifles…….. Oh, and they shoot 1 MOA or better…..

You explained it very well. One of my bolt guns is a kimber 84m in .308. It weighs 7 1/2 pounds. The rifle shoots very well and in fact produces sub moa groups as advertised but damn it took me a while to get really good at shooting it and I love it

It has been about cutting costs in every manufacturing process for a long time. Especially in the firearms industry, this is why you walk into a gun shop , and most things look so much alike anymore, where 20 years ago, you could identify brands by just looking at the styling, and the finishes used on the wooden stocks. Now. on most, you have to read on them, to be sure who the manufacturer is.

Finally a hunter that shoots on a range and is honest and modest. Fine looking firearm. I'm glad you two got together and you have my total respect.

Sako is one manufacturer still making a single piece bolt and bolt handle. Thanks for the videos!

This hour video went by so quick cause you speak so well. Thanks for the very informative video

glad to see someone critically thinking especially about marketing!

Two months spent talking about Winchester rifles is better than two minutes, and it's time well spent. Model 70 is far and away my favorite rifle. And you're right, Tom; there really isn't any magic to them, but what they do...they just do exceptionally well. They look good, they feel good, they shoulder intuitively, and if you do your part they never fail you. My son will be inheriting mine when I'm gone, and I am confident that one day he'll be able to pass it on to his son.

I looked for pre 64 22 hornet for years. Bought a swarovski scope for it...3x9 36mm. My wife had a leather soft case with "artificial " bobcat made by her saddle friend. I just about gave up...but as you said it found me. An old shot out abused barreled action. I took to it like a half dead rescue dog. After 2 strikes I got the stock just right. My buddy rebarrel with a cryro treatment blank machine to his spec. Really well done german blue. Purest hate it...I love it.

I’ve got a 63 featherweight 30-06 that has taken animals from 50-350 yds. 300+ yards is long range to me, so I’d say mine is a good long range gun.

Enjoyed the comparison. I have a 1955 model 70 featherweight in .270 that I’ve hunted with for years. Still has the original Weaver 4x scope. Both work great. In 2008 I bought a SC made model 70 featherweight in .30 06. Both are great rifles. The newer rifle is just a hair more accurate off the bench, much like your comparison. I still have a soft place in my heart for the pre-64.

I own a sako 75 finnlight in 308 off the bench it shoots lights out however being light I’m always looking for a tree to put it against when deer hunting so yes you are exactly right about the light weight rifles! Nice video thx

Enjoyed your comparison between pre-64 vs post-64 Mod 70’s Tom. I agree that many features are derived as cost-cutting to reduce costs. Modern metallurgy and CNC machining vs trained machinists with specialized machines do make a significant cost comparison. Marketing can surely spin things. I have a pre-64 and a 1964 Mod 70 in .243. My early 1964 (based on the serial number) was one of the first Mod 70’s the came out with push feed and cost cutting effort by Winchester. If I compare the two guns just on purely shooting, the 1964 is a really sweet shooter, it has a beautiful wood stock, nicely finished, good bluing and iron sites. The gun writers at the time bashed the 64 and post 64’s as they compared them to the pre-64’s. I think Winchester made a marketing mistake to call the new 64’s a Mod 70 since that would automatically be compared to the legacy rifle. I think had they launched it as an all new rifle and made no reference to the model 70 of the past, it wouldn’t have been bashed as hard. I personally believe that my 1964 is far better than any of the new budget rifles produced today. I think this validated your comparison of a pre-64 and modern post-64 with the same control round feed and what a Mod 70 should be. I also have two pre-64 Mod 94’s and a modern post-64 Mod 94 and here there are differences but not enough for me to say the pre-64 is better than a post-64. But for nostalgia, I prefer my older rifles and shotguns.

Thanks again for another great video, I like the way you went with the comparison and pretty much agree with your observation with the exception of the iron sights and I would have rather have one I could replace without too much trouble if it got damaged. Looking fwd to your fishing stuff, when I was on the coast of NC and when I was in Pensacola I use to do a lot of Speckle Trout and Redfish fishing when I was home...kept a pretty good freezer full there also. God Bless and have a great week.

Love my 52 modle 70 feathweight 308 .72 inch groups 155sst hand loads

Thanks so much … I enjoyed watching your videos !!! I have a 1955 , and your correct it is beautiful and all around just cool… ! 👌

I couldn’t agree with you more on many of your points comparing the older model with the new. Of the points you made, the fact that the newer model 70’s except for the larger caliber not having iron sights is especially the biggest letdown to me. I believe the Model 70 Alaskan model still has iron sights, but was very disappointed that my newer .270 didn’t have them, however very common nowadays. Thanks for another nice video Mr. River, take care and God bless.

Thanks for the video. I just came across a pre 64 yesterday but the price was pretty steep. Like you said though, they aren't making any more so I might just have to go for it.

Great video. I own dozens of rifles but for me two of them have "that feel" that you speak of. Both lever actions , a Marlin model 1936(made in 1936) 30-30 and a 1955 Savage 99f in 308. Both shoot m.o.d. and that’s good enough for me. Great channel , just found you.

Great videos. We enjoy listening to your point of view, probably cause it’s similar to mine. I love my Winchester’s pre ‘64 till now all between. I’ve never had a model 70 that didn’t have an adjustable trigger didn’t quite understand that comment on your video?. Thank you for the time you spend doing these videos.

Fascinating stuff presented by a thoughtful, informed fellow.

Maybe a super light rifle might make difference in accuracy of hand but off a bench I've shot plenty lightweight rifles that shoot under an inch consistently. I have a Remington 600 in 350 Remington magnum that shoots under an inch and has an 18 1/2 inch barrel. And the old Winchester 70 featherweight is not exactly a true lightweight rifle. It's still fairly heavy compared to today's lightweight rifles.

Great comments & Video, Tom. I appreciate you!

That reminds me of when I was comparing a 1915 British made SMLE and a 1950 Indian made Ishapore SMLE: The Ishapore factory cut a lot of corners in making the "Ishie," by the time the 1950's rolled around, but offhand you can hit the gong with it just as readily as you can with it's' old Brit made counterpart.

Tom, I've got a M-70 Featherweight in 7x57 and it's the one that I use because it's easy to tote and will handle anything I'm ever going to shoot. Mine will out shoot me any day of the week; your assessment of the notorious flyer from lightweight barrels was spot on. I'm also in total agreement with your iron sights speech; of course, I'm close to your age too, LOL! Great video and comparison between two perfect rifles! Take care and be well!

I don't think tinkering will solve the main accuracy limitation...the loose nut behind the trigger. Love your videos.

Wonderful review & detailed information... Thanks for your, time, effort and attention to detail. Loved it

Tom, your points are always on point sir

... I would actually prefer screwed on sights in case a sight was damaged in a fall and needed to be replaced or I wanted to put a custom after market sight on the gun

Been hunting since early 80's and my Uncle always let me use his Winchester 270. It seems you got more for your $ back in the day. I bought every old gunsmith manual I could find. There's not much others haven't already done or thought of. Great information.👍

I believe the string comes from the heating makes the barrel tough the wood . But that's just me.

Thanks buddy -- I will let you know if I get it.

The bedding on the pre 64 is like no other.

To answer Tom's question: are the modern guns better than some of the older guns? No, not necessarily. But they're certainly easier to produce and less expensive to make. THAT's what modern firearms, including the post '64 model 70's are: mass producible, for less money, (thereby yielding the gun companies better profits) while still maintaining reasonable quality and performance. The innovations are in the production processes, not necessarily in the quality or function. And Tom has stated this very clearly in this interesting video. I'm happy he's joined some of us out here as a proud owner of a very Classic American firearm, not one likely to ever be excelled or produced in this country again. Alas.

New rifle hype is basically nothing more than a re-spin of what we've always had. They just wait for the new generation to forget, then release or rerun with hype the new generation hasn't heard before.

I’d be curious to see a bore scope run through the bore of the old pre 64 and a new rifle to see the difference in the interior finish new vs old. That’s where they say they have made the great strides in accuracy with new rifles compared to the old rifles. They say the old rifles have a much ruffer bore but until someone does a side by side comparison all we have to go on is the they say. Could that be the cause of the flyers you keep seeing or just a glitch in a random load cause by a number of things that could cause flyers. You should grab a teslong bore scope that run 40$ and do that comparison would be a great video. I own the teslong borescope there great to have but I don’t have the pre 64 to compare to the FN Winchester

If you have a single flyer, that is a tell tale sign of your load is too hot and about to come apart. Load for velocity nodes. Then do your seating depth. Check out Scott Satterlee's mythod of loading. It will revamp the way you load bullets.

I believe your front sight is actually silver soldered on. I think they switched from integral before 1960

I was happy with the pre 64 I had no idea till I got to shoot the one I picked up mine is 300 H&H and I don’t know if I lucked out with my hand loads or what but after I got the scope move to the center of the target I shot a clover leaf at a 100 yards granted the one I got weighs more but it surprised me so they must be really good that’s why they command the price they do and have the reputation they have

I think old rifles like these need a scope from the same era. Like a nice Weaver K4 or a Redfield but to each his own

Thanks Again for some Great information. And as always the Truth. Thank You. And God Bless

Hi Mr River, on the topic of chamber size, SAAMI was not adopted as the ANSI standards until the 1970's. This may explain the difference between the old and new chamber dimensions.

O by the way it sounds like you’re keeping both. You convinced me anyway.

Carlos Hathcock (usmc sniper in Vietnam) used his personal hunting rifle Winchester model 70 .30-06 rifle for my of his kills.

they built those old rifles WITH PRIDE! they made them to be 100% reliable, under any conditions or circumstances. and I agree with the old style crowns being better. on the lands, and I might be all wet here, but I have always thought that if the barrel was made properly, you could have a lot of free bore in a barrel without sacrificing accuracy. BUT, the free bore would HAVE to be kept to extremely tight tolerances, like less than .0001" over the entire length (which might be how Weatherby gets away with it in their rifles) of the actual bore diameter. but that would be EXPENSIVE, so no one would ever do that.

Just wish they made them Pre 64 in left hand

They are all good. Pre-'64 M54 .270 Win M70 FW .257 Roberts AI (Bartlein Barrel to replace original that didn't shoot) Post-'64 M70 .30/06 M70 XTR .300 Win Mag New CRF M70 Super Grade .280 AI (Chamber Reamed). Bad Weather Beater Winchester XPR .308 Win My 1965 M70 Pushfeed came with a pre-'64 style trigger. I'm not sure if it is original or not. The least accurate Winchester Bolt I've owned was my Pre-'64 M70 FW with original barrel. Each rifle is a rule into itself.

*HAWK CUSTOM ROUND NOSE BULLETS might give you more bullet to bore contact.... For stability... practical accuracy... and lethality do consider 'heavy for caliber' round nose bullets.*

I don't know about the new rifle bolt but if I'm correct the way the extractor works on the pre-64 Winchester is a better more positive lock on the case going into the chamber VS riding over the rim on lock up. You will have a more positive extraction on the pre-64 vs newer bolts. Surprised you didn't mention that. I might be wrong?

I kinda was hoping you would have worked the actions for the viewers only Because I had a 2013 Winchester 70 Classic Sporter find me this week ! It's Action & Bolt are AMAZINGLY Smooth. This was only the 2nd Video I have seen on the. 2013 type. Thank You,you Drew me in !

I have a Pre 64 super grade made in 1949 95% condition

Not to many deer killed at the bench. The pre.64 Quilty through out.

I have a pre 64 winchester model 70 chambered in 300 Holland and Holland that was my grandfather's

love the woodworkers bench

Thank you for sharing

Tom you really remind me of the store owner from the movie (no country for Old men) Thanks for the great reviews on the m70s

I grew up in N Idaho 60's. I was given a sporterized 30-40 Krag Hunted everything never had a problem. Always had meat in the freezer

Adjustable trigger of cheap components costs less than higher quality parts. I think the Howa bolt is one piece forged.

The true rifle man's rifle.

Hello Tom, I know what you mean about lighter rifles being "squirrely"...I think you nailed it in that they CAN be more accurate with glass bedding and a floated barrel if someone wants that. Your consistent flyer opening the group up sounds like a bedding issue. That said, if you don't need it why mess with it.

They went GREAT everyone knows that

Hold it at 45deg , lift bolt handle with 1 finger see if bolt will open by gravity. My 41 manufactured 30 GOV will.

Very Good Video

Mine found me 1950 national match, so fun

I just found this. Great video.

I gotta say that legendary has no equal.

Hello Tom, thanks for another nice video. I must say I’m disappointed that the new model 70’s, except in the larger big game model variants no longer come stock with iron sights. With that said, I actually think a removable iron sight could be an advantage. I understand that there are some excellent peep sights out there as well as end sights that have drop in posts and other nifty adjustments. I have heard some people say they don’t prefer fully hooded end sights as it slows fast target acquisition by confusing the target image at first. I know of some military rifles that don’t have a full hood but just as side blades to protect the end sight and allows a more open sight window. I suppose it’s just all in one’s own preference. I watch several other channels besides yours on the model 70, GuneBlue 490 has a great channel with a wealth of info, Ron Spomer Outdoors etc. I found an interesting video by a channel USOG, Winchester Showdown! pre 64 model 70 vs current model 70. While I appreciate other channel producers as well, Tom River Simple Living is one of my favorites! Keep up the awesome work on the channel, and yes I love fishing also, so best of luck to you my friend. I hope you snag some of those tasty finned creators from the deep. I’m curious to know if you have a Winchester model 70 in the .243 WIN? I would be interested in learning more about this highly popular cartridge from you prospective, esp now since I can shoot one. Take care and God bless you sir. ✌️😎👍🇺🇸

whitch shot the best group after you finished load development i have been waiting to find out and what caliber are both

... gotta chuckle at those who put umpteen power "culvert pipe" variable scopes on a light HUNTING rifle and then proceed to wear out the barrel at the range trying to squeeze every last 1/4 MOA of accuracy out of it apparently completely oblivious to the fact that the rifle was DESIGNED to take BIG game animals (black bear, deer, elk, moose) with the cross section profile of a highway roadside billboard ... sorry for being old fashioned and 75+ years old ... I just don't get it

I love when a gun finds you😂I got 3 guns that found me too

Do you have any 1970’s model 70 rifles ? I would like to see a video on one of those .. someone is selling me one and would like to know if I should purchase

Featherweights are better. Cant walk around for 4 hours while carrying a regular weight rifle. Were not trained like the army to walk long miles with heavy rifles. We dont got the muscles to do something like that. Get this im 32 and i still would rather walk around with a featherweight than regular weight . I had a savage 99 f and that could shoot. I never missed a deer and always dropped them in 1 shot. No fliers when shooting deer. Ive even shot afew deer in the dark with the open sights featherweight savage 99. It sucks hauling meat at night back to the pickup site.

Simple fit a after merket trigger timney etc

Nice video and thorough as far as which direction to head with your set up. I love a Pre-‘64 Model 70 more than most people, and the single cut grooves in the barrel really offers some of the least disruptive ways of barreling a rifle. As far as cold hammer forged barrels, there is some absolute magic going on there. The mandrel has to be highly polished, and unwavering in its tolerance specs. In the process of cold hammer forging, even under a bath of cold water soluble oil, the metal of the bore liquifies under pressure and literally flows; making a near perfect mirror image of the mandrel. All that, AND the barrel is stress relieved in the process. That doesn’t mean we can’t somehow screw that up. Companies love to screw with the hourly workers, even skilled journeymen in their field, if they can try and push for greater speed, finding shortcuts, for a few more cents profit. I get the feeling that the people doing the cold hammer forged barrels in Czechoslovakia probably get left to do a good job; much the same way that in Europe, its unthinkable to pick produce before being rip. In the US, its picked unrip, and ripens in the store - mostly. Its never as good as picked when ripe, but that’s not as fast. Anyway, I used to look down on this new barrel process until I saw how the CZ factory is doing them. That, and I only saw it because I watched it at my dad’s house. A Marine sniper in Korea, top shooter in match during the late ‘50s, and yes, he liked those pre-‘64 Model 70s, but he also can see where technology can be a real asset; him having been a top dog machinist, making nose cone models for the Polaris Missile Project for observation in the wind tunnel, just for starters. An incredibly gifted trouble shooter, as well. He also like Ruger’s lost wax rifle action casting process, acknowledging that it offers more strength that the hot drop forging process. Just my input on modern technology. Its like safety- its only as good as what you make of it. If a foreman is allowed to push the people doing these jobs into cutting corners, then we will see some outliers when sighting in at the range. That’s the Harvard School of Business’s modus operandi- hurry, hurry, hurry. Lots of shortcuts. Production quality lacks, but profits go up.

I'm about to pay 1200 for pre 64 30-06 I wamt to collect them in every caliber now.

This discussion has gone on for years and the answer is the model 70 is far and away the best hunting rifle ever built end of discussion

Cool

17:59 "What we have now, though, is a lack of knowledge about the past" THIS rings true with so much nowadays, very disappointing 😔

I've read most guns are more accurate than the operator. I believe this to be true.

Looking at a 1951 standard 270 metal butt-- good condition -- asking 800.00--- what do you think should I pick it up?

Do you ever have a show where we could compare guns? I have some lovely classics you’d like to see?

Tom, you may have provided this information in a prior video, but what are the scopes on those rifles?

Don't see iron sights on hunting rifles anymore, but many people put back up iron sights on their new AR 15's. Tacticool folks wouldn't be caught without them. Out of style/in style.

Great video.... I am In a search of one anyone know where to look ?

❤

That's crazy! All of my kimbers weigh significantly less than that and are 1/2 MOA guns. All of them. Even with the right factory loads. A $300 Savage will shoot sub moa with corelokt trash. Something is definitely wrong with that rifle.

The old ones are just a figment of your imagination. Current production model 70's are every bit as good, maybe better actually than the pre 64's. What makes the old ones sought after is the fact they don't make em anymore. Gotta chase something in this life.

I think most bolt action rifles should have iron sights. Heavy barreled varmint and target rifles probably don’t. Rugers are really cool with irons. If anything happens to the scope, their integral rings are very easy to remove in the field.

The pre-war Model 70 is recognized as the best quality production. Those produced immediately after the war, like my 1949 30-06, are not quite as good, and had a few minor features eliminated. By the early 1960s, the quality had begun to suffer due to some of the tooling reaching the end of its life. The changes implemented in 1964 were as much to do with Winchester not wanting to invest in retooling, as for trying to compete with less costly rifles from Remington.

The only thing that makes them expensive is they are not made any more, they are nothing more than a model 70 with controlled feed.