Karen Swallow Prior & RC Sproul Jr - How should the church respond when Christian leaders fall? 

It's astonishing seeing RC Sproul Jr being interviewed here, especially where the subject is accountability of Christian leaders. The most prominent feature of RC Jr's life is a decades-long series of scandals and crimes. He's gotten away with it because he's a master at evading accountability. That and his family's enabling. Over and over he's been propped up and even rewarded for his scandals. When he was defrocked in 2006 for spiritual abuse, tax fraud, identity theft, stealing church funds, alcohol abuse, etc. his father rewarded his horrific conduct by giving him a six-figure job at Ligonier. Rather than being disciplined for registering for an Ashley Madison "Life is short, have an affair" account Ligonier suspended him with full pay. IOW he was rewarded for his scandal with a one-year six-figure paid vacation. Within 5 months of being "restored" to his position at Ligonier he was arrested in 2016 and convicted for felony drunk driving (he fails to mention here he was also stoned out of his mind on opioids). He resigned from Ligonier over his felony drunk driving conviction after arranging a six-figure golden parachute "severance package." In spite of scandal upon scandal Ligonier continues paying Junior six-figures as an independent contractor. RC Jr's view of accountability is a complete sham. All accountability means to RC Jr is getting away with scandals and crimes while still being lavishly paid. In light of all this I can't help but see the irony of this channel's title "Unbelievable."

Here's the bottom line. RC Sproul is completely banned from any form of ministry in my opinion. His Dad was the greatest, and held fast to the end. Unfortunately, RC Jr. Is disqualified.

First of all, they MUST to be accountable to the people and to be removed from their usurpation of authority . What should you do when so called "pastor/apostle" is bullying and hurting people for many years and they sue you when you call them out??? Talk about it, please

What I liked about this is rc sounds humble and repentant I would be glad to have him as my pastor

I know some people have a lot of negative to say about R.C. but I can say, he helped me many years ago, on multiple occasions where he had nothing to gain by doing so. I was a young and broke guy that needed help, and he did just that. I didn't even really know him, just knew of him, and he helped a lot. I did not receive as much help from some people that I actually knew.

God's grace and mercy extend to every sinner who genuinely repents, even to scandalous reprobates like RC Sproul Jr who's committed innumerable scandals over many years. The problem is he did it all while claiming to be "redeemed" and functioning as a pastor and ministry leader. He thinks he qualified to be a pastor just because his name is Sproul. The Word of God says otherwise (Titus 1:5-9 and 1 Timothy 3:1-7). Not everyone can meet those standards (I certainly don't), and RC Jr doesn't even come close. Even if he has repented, forgiveness doesn't convey any sense of legitimacy to RC Jr's decision to put himself back into ministry. It just makes him a renegagde and rebel. Every single one of RC Jr's pastor/theologian/minister friends have expressly told him he's disqualified from the ministry. So he's cut himself off from them. Nevertheless he's set himself up as the "Pastor" of Sovereign Grace Fellowship, a church he recently organized. Where is his authority to do so? Not God's Word. Not by virtue of any ordination or the authority of any church. RC Jr declared himself fit for ministry merely by virtue of God's forgiveness.

It seems many confess only after they are caught. There’s the difference. It’s not like most came and confessed privately before it came out. I wouldn’t want to be taught or led by anyone like that.

I find it unbelievable that karen swallows R.C. Sproul Jr. prior to ashley madison and jennifer epstein's role in finding a sudanese allosaur.

@7:41 RC Sproul Jr says, "We have a gospel that covers our sins, but it covers the sins that we uncover, that we confess." Agreed. But what if a confession is deceptive or full of excuses? Is that sin covered? "I confess my sin of ________ but..." (justify, excuse, mitigate) doesn't cut it in God's economy. Too many celebrity preachers make their priority saving face rather than getting their sin covered by a holy God. RC Sproul Jr illustrates this perfectly, and his Ashley Madison scandal is just one of many examples I could cite of his phony face-saving confessions. Sproul goes on to say, "Sometime in 2014 I had visited the Ashley Madison web site..." Here begins his lying narrative, one he's been telling since 2015. Sproul admits he "left an old email address," something that doesn't square with only "visiting" Ashley Madison. Only Ashley Madison account holders can leave an email address. Why is the distinction between "visitor" and "account holder" important? Because when you register for an Ashley Madison account you have to give far more than just a name and email address. You also have to check off a long list of sexually explicit boxes such as "Sexual Preference," "Affair Limits," and a host of other prurient lusts (as explained on the Spinderella Sproul blog). In telling such a huge lie, dozens of times in 5 years, how can any objective thinking person find Sproul credible enough to not have some measure of doubt when he claims he didn't hook up with any women? Perhaps he didn't, but only the most gullible would take him at his word.

It's obvious that Sproul Jr is a hypocrite and his father should be called the same. They preach about going to hell yet they are the worst sinners.

Thank you so much for going through this.

Carl Lentz was very obviously a false teacher. It was less of a fall from grace and more of an uncovering of who he was as a person. Watch American Gospel.

Primare goal are their victims!! I dont care about bullies who are hurting so many people

Unfortunately leaders will be judged more harshly. Jerry Jr, seems to forget this at around 16:00. If you want to be a teacher in the public space then you have to accept this truth.

Who made Karen a teacher of men? Where's her husband?

Unfortunately if you’re in the public eye everything you do is very public and the world is watching.

A really good book on this subject is Restoring the Fallen which tells of Mark and Cherith Stibbe’s painful story of fall, repentance and restoration. Rooted throughout in the moving tale of Peter’s restoration in John 21, Mark and Cherith offer hope and healing to those who have fallen. They use the picture of kintsugi - the Japanese art of repairing broken cups using golden lacquer - to reveal how we are all cracked pots, but our loving Father is the Divine Potter, and in his hands, our fractures become the fissures through which his glory shines!

RC Sproul Jr tells so many lies in this interview it's hard for me to not come to the conclusion he must be a pathological liar. As just one example @21:25, "Have you received criticism for wanting to go back into forms of public ministry RC?" "I have, but I haven't given it much weight because the things that I've been doing are things that anybody can do. I had internet critics jumping up and down because I'd been asked to speak at a small event... and my hosts made the mistake of listing me as Reverend RC Sproul Jr, which I wasn't." Except they hadn't made a mistake at all. He'd been promoting his "RC Sproul Jr Ministries" for months prior and publicly given himself the titles "Pastor" and "Rev." When he got called out for it he abruptly deleted all references to RC Sproul Jr Ministries. Then several months later he incorporated Dunamis Fellowship as "The teaching ministry of RC Sproul Jr." He got challenged for calling it a "teaching ministry." So he changed it to "teaching outreach." Every week he produces a video for the sole purpose of soliciting donations to buy an expensive piece of land and build a church building, a project costing $millions. That's not something "anybody can do," let alone would do. Those of us who know RC Jr's dark history of tax fraud, identity theft, stealing $hundreds of thousands from the church coffers, and ripping off other churches and ministries in a travel expense scam, can plainly see his church building fundraiser is a scam. RC Sproul Jr has clearly set himself up in "public ministry." So why for the past 2+ years does he keep denying the obvious? Without a ministry ordination he knows he can't be viewed as legitimate in ministry. But no denomination or even just a local church will ordain him, especially knowing he demitted his last ordination because his Presbytery wouldn't sign off on his marrying a 3 times divorced woman. So he fled their authority and married her anyway. Without a doubt RC Jr is "in public ministry." Just not legitimately so, especially in light of the four Reformed Presbyterian ordinations he'd held over the years (Sproul jumps ship and changes up denominations at the first sign of trouble, and as frequently as the typical church-hopper). Sproul knows he has no legitimate standing to be a minister, which is why he lies and says he's not in public ministry.

R.C. was very humble in accepting Justin's mispronunciation of his last name. Those Brits with their funny way of talking!

Agreed Tim. If we had more humble and honest people in points of leadership in and out the church, we would have a much better world in general. That being said, I have so much more respect for someone that can admit to making mistakes, even big ones, make changes in their life, and not hide their heads or point fingers at others but actually own it and use heir experience to share Christ with others. Anyone disagreeing with this principle need no better example than Paul and his conversion to Christ.

Thank you for this program. As one who has had a ‘fall’ just under a year ago, I found the discussion engaging and provoking - but just a couple of observations. I wonder why there was no voice from this side of the pond? In many ways the UK context is different, as are the legal processes and denominational structures (recent ‘Sheldon report’ critiquing Anglican measures is an example). Though things are still very raw for me, I have been surprised by the ad hoc process of discipline (which at times has felt cruel), and how much people are prepared to kick you when down, balanced by unexpected kindness and care (without approving) as well as God’s grace. I would have loved to hear more regarding accountablity and vulnerability (difficult for many leaders as need to be self-motivating and resourceful - so maybe a particular personality type), false accusations, boundaries, and the voice of the other victims not mentioned: spouse and close family who seem ignored by any process. As well, some talk on best practice for discipline and restoration (tho not suggesting back to the same position). A fall is never easy - you lose your job, income, house, reputation, legacy and friends. Resources-wise, church support is virtually impossible in lockdown situation, but I’ve found the writings of Mark Stibbe, Gordon MacDonald and the Psalms helpful. Pray for your leaders; they ain’t great at opening up until too late, and no one is left unhurt.

Something to consider Justin: around 29:35 you mention a "fall from grace" and reference Carl Lentz. Biblically speaking, one doesn't fall from grace by sinning but rather by trying to attain righteousness through the Law / works. "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." - (Galatians 5:4) I've really enjoyed this conversation as someone who has witnessed this very issue in previous leadership of our local church. Thanks for asking the tough questions, blessings!

Just search Karen swallow prior and you'll get more than enough to understand where she comes from. No it's not Orthodox nor is her Gospel the true gospel

I wonder if I can suggest a discussion subject, this is the title “It is time to reevaluate the support to the developing countries’ ministries” - Is it really help the locals! How much it hurt the locals! How much abuse! By the fund entrusted locals to locals! - The issue of accountability! Which in those countries not exist almost at all, especially with people gained reputations so they became very trusted, and they get furious for just questioning about using the fund! - How much suffering for the locals, the support abuse generate! - The calls for counsel to oversee what is going on, and this is regarding all the denominations! - False manipulative reporting! - Dependency! - I am one of the locals and I am very open to discussing those issues from the ground privately before bringing it publicly!

Nice, necessary and overdue discussion. I was missing two important aspects of this that I believe were too lightly alluded to. One is that, as a category of people, Christians are viewed as being pretty judgy. When leaders fall the appearance of hypocrisy is more glaring than with others. This makes it harder to let go of the feelings of betrayal. The other bit is the difference between when a lower level 'leader' trips up (such as a Sunday School teacher) verses someone with limited accountability (the charismatic pastor or organization leader). Should the level of accountability be the same or different? Restoration the same or different?

Perhaps pride has fluorished, secretly or openly, people are often granted power by simple means of celebrity status among the body. It takes a truly surrendered man to keep such status in check before God. A proper structure of accountability through elders and peer accountability must be a constant check. For the sake of our Savior's name in whom we must honor. Stepping down on one's own examination should be more common to prevent the shame of the church.

If more Christians were like Karen, I think Christianity would have a better reputation. Sadly she's an exception.

Just look at the state of Evangelical Christianity in America.....

If Church leaders fail so miserably, what was the Holy Spirit doing?

Women are not suppose to be pastors it is outside their design and women are in deception who believe they can walk in that role . 1 Corinthians 14 V33-37

The way back may be to get a different job.

Jerry Falwell-the apple doesn't fall far from the tree!

What a shame that the biblical solution wasn't considered. The leadership model in the New Testament is of a group of elders/overseers, working together, supporting and guarding each other. Monarchical leadership is a very human trait, but also very dangerous and when, as it always is, it is combined with placing a man on a pedestal it can be fatal. RC Sproul Jr did quote some Scripture, but it was mostly absent from the discussion. Why is it that we hear so little exegesis on this programme? And you still have that ghastly music.

I noticed that Junior misrepresented the truth by saying we must stand up in church and confess our individual sins. Silly doctrine considering you only need to confess to God that you are a wretched sinner. I only point this out to demonstrate that demons give themselves away by misrepresenting the Gospel.

It always was the case that oversight and accountability meant making sure there was always at least two people present for counselling, always group (staff) prayer meetings wherein sanctification, openness and brokenness guided prayer. I think any ministry built on a person or personalities and where solicitation donations plays a part in financing the ministry, it requires even more sanctity. When you have a staff serving a leadership group it’s easy for the staff to be intimidated by the leadership. I think the New Testament teaches that we are all equal before the Lord, and the Holy Spirit can anoint anyone with a pure heart to deliver a word of prophecy, caution or reproof.

I saw Ravi Zacharias three times in my life.. across 2 continents. i did not believe lori ann or saw anything wrong when he called himself doctor.. i believed him. He did not save my soul.. jesus did.. ravi's one sermon .. why dint i feel my faith saved me from depression. i thanked ravi for his team.. for me, he put a first class team .. michael et all.. i pray that they seek forgiveness... they repent.. another thing.. if abdu murray, sarah Davis, zacharias family are part of the future team.. i will unfollow everyone..

Your sin is not your identity, but in Christ - as the children of the Father who is caring for you. As Christians, knowing saved by faith alone, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. He gives us the power to fight sins - therefore we pray, fast, read the Word and attend the church, growing to put to death the deeds of the body. The Holy Triune God himself will give us the power to persevere till the end.

Woah...Cool background Justin! :)

I'm against m2. I do think it is good if victims are heard. But some things are quite difficult situations. Like what is it if we have a not confirmable situation? And what level is consent and what is harassment? Let's take an example. In the actin scene if an actress has sex with a producer she gets better roles. She then does that and ten years later she claims he sexually harassed her. I personally wouldn't call him a sexual predator, if he doesn't force anyone. But I would call him corrupt. And how can someone defend himself of things which happened ten years ago? A further problem with the entire situation is, when a women accuses someone of having sexually harassed her, then she gains fame, money, if she gets succeeds and she does not get punished in any form if she made everything up. But on his end _(if he's innocent or if she exaggerated),_ the best case scenario is that the judge rules in his favor and the public doesn't notice. And the worst case he gets either a wrong judgement or he doesn't get a judgement but looses his job and reputation anyways. In such a situation I find it highly unlikely that only very few accusations are not true. If we would change that people who make wrong accusations get the same punishment as the accused would get, then the situation is entirely different. But as long as only one side can experience punishment then I don't blindly trust the honesty oft the accusers. And in such a situation _(which both sides are difficult to defend)_ I will go with innocent until proven guilty. There will be people not going to jail who should. But currently that is the less bad outcome in my opinion.

Sprouls words are correct regarding repentance and the nature of the gospel. Sadly Karen has a scent of woke gospel in her tone and social justice on her lips. That gospel is no gospel at all. That gospel focuses only on the sin, whatever sin, and says you may be forgiven...but only after a certain amount of penance and works. Which any half committed Christian knows is no gospel at all.

I can't understand what is the big fuss about Ravi Zacharias action?? Jesus has taken care of all his sins. That was his death on the cross all about. It was for the original sins and for sins like this. Thanks to Jesus, Ravi is now sinless. Hellilujah... He did not even need to apologize to those women he molested. Jesus took care of it. Get your knowledge straight people. Stop talking about this and stop wasting time.

Ravi found out that Jesus’s story was just stupid, so he fell off the wagon. Lol. Sacrificing himself to himself for himself

You need to let it go Karen!