I feel like the "black man in a dress" conversation has veered away from the actual harm it causes which is to perpetuate negative stereotypes about black women. No one forced these brothers to do it, it's just an easy low hanging fruit joke they all used with black women as the punchline
I do think we need to address the slight difference in performance when it comes to how blk & white men act when in dresses. It’s a little striking how when done by black men the butt of the joke a lot of the time is black women specifically while for white men just the idea of women and more standard misogyny/sexism is the joke. I feel not until the Karen archetype was popularized that white women specifically were made the direct butt of jokes like blk women have been.
And sometimes it’s to make fun of transwomen too or to make fun of queerness overall, like if a side character liked being with the transperson you were meant to find that funny or disgusting
@@bomberbcmand usually the white men are meant to be more sympathetic to women overall, like the joke or the point is to put yourself in women’s heels so you can empathize (and then hook up with one of the ladies that saw you as a sister in the struggle and friend and confidant)
I was just about to post this. In most of the “black men in a dress” stuff the joke is black women. It’s something I never thought about until my wife pointed it out to me. They make fun of black women bodies, how they talk, dress and the way they act.
When he said _“I’ve read 3,000 books every year since I was 12”_ I knew he was just throwing shit at the wall saying anything knowing it would stick 🤦🏾♂️ people believe anything
this was the line that was so irrefutably insane/untrue that it killed any face value truth in the whole interview for me. also him saying he wasn't on drugs and makes good decisions like we don't all remember the video of him losing a fight he picked with a teenager.
I personally took it as an exaggeration and an extreme number just to get the point across of I've read a lot of books. It's like someone says "I've done this s million times" I don't think he read 3000 books but I definitely believe he was an adved reader the man knowledgeable in a bunch of areas.
About the blue/no collar work and homophobia… We poor too. We try to get “mans work” because it pays and some of it is rather nice to do, these fellas “love” their jobs so much 😂. Issue is… its a rather hostile work environment. My ass is queer, always been, yet I am also very skilled and technical. I tried to get into trades but it was quite simply “high school” antics by people with absolutely no respect for me and thinly vailed hostility. I moved from hvac, to IT and never looked back. Office people at least attempted to be respectful and kind to my face. It’s why lots of us are “tender queers” or wtv. The fact is, just trying to earn an honest living is gate kept by ass holes and those ass hats are protected by rest of them because they earn the company money. Moving to desk work with the women/wealthy/climbers is the only option for a peaceful life. I am sure if I stuck with it for a few decades I would have gotten some respect, but only after being humiliated, made fun of and threatened every day to prove myself to under achievers who refuse to read the instructions on their own tools.
This actually gets at another conspiracy from these same types of men, who claim that "Black gay privilege" is a thing. They cite the idea that we often go into white collar jobs as "proof" that being gay makes life easier. In reality, many of us aggressively sought out college degrees to get white collar jobs because that was one way out of the relentless homophobia Black queer folks are/were subject to in our day-to-day. (Nvm that many Black gay men do remain in underpaid blue collar jobs, just in different industries than ones most associated with conventional masculinity)
Yeah, as a straight-passing black queer they working in the electrical trade, the amount of horseshit I gave a pass to for survival is heartbreaking in hindsight.
I keep hearing about how socially hostile trades are to everyone entering the field. But also I’ve yet to hear of any efforts to change the work culture either.
@@theinvisiblewoman5709 Once a culture festers enough it's really difficult to change things. I agree with the others here that the trades are filled with a high school hazing mentality, so you aren't going to get much cooperation on acting better. Unless you form a factory or work crew anew and just make a better culture the mandatory default, it just won't happen.
I think what they’re missing… is that in a cissexist society that fights to suppress everything that is not heteronormative, ANY cis man in a dress who is famous WILL get attention. It is something that causes discomfort and it is an easy thing to ridicule, but also an easy way to get eyes on you. Plenty of people tune into certain things to see their favorite male celebrities in a dress and that has more to do with how we view typically feminine things on men who, by default SHOULD be cis and heterosexual. In a way, it’s a cheap gimmick and you will very rarely seen it done earnestly by famous celebrities. When they do it earnestly they have to divorce themselves from the image of a man who is necessarily verifiably heterosexual and they have to exist in this sorta vagueness that allows them to be seen as separated from that image of heterosexuality (Bad Bunny and that dude from one direction are great examples of that. The celebrities who do this often have to reinforce their masculinity. And you’re completely correct: the point of this is to, ironically, reinforce the narrow, brutish image projected onto them and expected from them by white supremacy. It’s actually very sad. Look at how people are responding to the black librarian guy being tender and gentle. What I love about lil Nas X Is he completely uses that fear and pokes fun at it. lol. That’s why he’s becoming more femme. lol
My real problem with black men in dresses is the negative caricature of black women that black men tend to portray in the dress. Wesley Snipes as Noxema Jackson in "To Wong Foo" was iconic, Eddie Murphy as Rasputia in "Norbit" ain't it for me. There's levels to this dress thing for me lol.
THIS! It's the punching down on black women for me. If a black actor puts on a dress then that is his choice but it should never come at the mockery of black women. Leave us out of the conversation.
I just posted something similar. In addition to what you wrote add all of the Instagram "comedians" who got millions of views by just repeating the same lazy caricatures of black women. Who in Hollywood was forcing them to do that?
Agreed Dave Chapelle in men in tights was funny for me, because the whole cast tried to dress up as women to sneak in somewhere undetected. That was the joke.
@@LeeBro80baby don't get mad, get even is silly especially in this context. I would say black women at large don't want to perpetuate harmful stereotypes about black men because those same images harm our sons, brothers, fathers and significant others. Also I concur. Mama Klump was an angel
A number of black folks have been looking for a hero or leader it seems, and when someone says something that affirms their views with a little bit of truth, they take everything that person says as gospel. At the same time, they ignore or try to make excuses for things like Chappelle wearing a dress multiple times himself. This is why it’s so easy to grift. The target audience doesn’t care if Katt or Dave aren’t telling the whole truth, they don’t care if Fresh and Fit trick off their money or have “sus” photos, they don’t care if right wing, Christian, mom for Liberty is a swinger and sleeps with other women. The only thing Katt really exposed is how much people lack critical thinking. If you hear “protect this person at all costs”, there’s usually some bull shyt surrounding that person
@@Dee-lp7lo me too, and I would be VERY good at it I even have what I call my "Alt-Rightsona" called "Devoid of W0keness" that I daydream about lmao When I make videos like FD signifier I'm probably using that as an ongoing joke making fun of alt right manosphere Chuds
One of the reasons I've opted out of online activism and focused on my area, home and country, is because I have had to accept that most people who want systemic change, want the easy answers and solutions that won't demand for them to change any of their actual habits, or hold anyone they wanna like, accountable for their actions. The discourse on blk billionaires has really shown me that many people actively know the harm, but wanna excuse their faves, and that's getting us nowhere.
You're so right about it being an emotional argument. I'm a teacher, and I asked some of my homophobic students, "What exactly is bad about being LGBTQ?" They couldn't say anything coherent. It's just the fear. Thank you for stating it so clearly.
@@danielcropp8553although I agree it's an emotional argument. The age range of those students highlight that it's a learned behavior (as with most bigotry pushed) by their older relatives/idols. I wish most ppl weren't tainted by all of that propaganda back in the day.
You’re asking babies that kind of question that they inherently have issues with but don’t have the ability to explain why yet. The best response would be to say that they don’t care for it or like it.
*Kim N. Foster* had a great take on this "issue" on her 2nd channel (Timecode *56 min* ). She said the following: *_What I find really funny about all of this conversation about the men in dresses [...], is that the conversation is primarily centered on how Hollywood wants to emasculate or effeminize black men by putting them in dresses. But we never discuss how these black men gleefully sign up to portray black women in the most disgusting, most stereotypical, most misogynoirist, which is in a way that encapsulates the worst most virulent forms of racialized misogyny. How that shit has consequences for black women. It's about the men who chose to do it, who get paid a lot of money to do it, how they are the ones who are harmed?! [...]_* *_From the beginning of what we understand to be modern theater, men play women. [...] I don't think that - wearing dresses - says anything horrible or outrageous about black men, to be honest, [...] I think what is actually says to be honest is [...] the fragile masculinity of black men. [...] I think it's useful to think about how, so many times, the most absurd portrayals of black women by black men are in vehicles that black men star in. [...] Where they accrue most of the rewards from participating in those absurd and stereotypical portrayals._*
Exactly, I thought FD would mention this but didn't. I was like dude you missed some nuance. Katt Williams is whatever he is, but he ridicules blk women when they shoot firs, not by doing an overly done cheap gimmick that goes back to Flint Wilson for me. Actually Katt Williams does the pimp gimmick well, but that's less seen than the cross dressing and ridiculing blk women. Another part of what Katt was implying with the cross dressing is how you've got to leave some of your beliefs behind to work in Hollywood. Actors who've kept their beliefs know how to rework what the writers and producers put in front of them or leave a role for someone else. Thank you Sidney and Denzel.
Has any black female comedian spoken out about female blackface…? Have they only been negative stereotypes? Has any woman of color made a video denouncing male comedians in dresses?
I think it depends. When I see Tyler Perry play Madea I see a man who was raised by women portraying a sort of homage to the type of women he grew up around. I think that’s why his work appeals to so many black people. I don’t think he is trying to make fun of black women with Madea. I think he had an auntie who was holy but carried a gun and that juxtaposition is admittedly pretty funny. Now the black men who become social media famous by wrapping shirts around their head playing ghetto girl stereotypes ARE profiting from negative stereotypes of black women. Martin Lawrence played a TON of characters. How come 3 of them can’t be women? Why single out Shenehneh and Big Momma and ignore Jerome and Roscoe and Dragonfly Jones?
I was in college when Chapelle's interview with Oprah came out talking about the dress thing , the amount of HOURS me and a few of my black friends argued over black actors being forced to wear a dress in the dorms was INSANE. I was able to show them footage of Tom Hank .. dog .... TOM HANKS the DEFAULT white A-list actor of my childhood doing drag WEEKLY on US tv at the start of his career and it kind of ended the debate finally , kinda.
@@nicholasjordan7334if a woman says she won't take off her clothes for a scene and is told you can either take it off or not work, is that not being... Wait... Hold up. What's the feminine word for emasculated?
@@Msvalexvalex the same, emasculate has more than one meaning. It's not right for it to happen to women or men. Also much like what has happened to women it seems like unless white men say it's wrong then black men's complaints are without merit.
As a teenager learning their place in the world today, it’s really nice to have the ability to watch people such as FD for their ability to break down situations in the pop culture with logic and concise arguments.
I know I was quick to believe kat on the dress thing because that definitely sounds like good ole racist doing what they do, but I didn't consider the homophobic/anti trans undertones or to check his receipts
Somebody aptly summed up the interview as “The ramblings of a drunk hobo tryna bum a cigarette off you in front of the 7-11” and I have not stopped thinking about it since😂
As a man who wears dresses just for fun, it really boggles my mind how fcking SCARED men are of a piece of fabric. It really speaks to their homophobia and misogyny. You can tell which dudes are SO insecure about themselves by how they respond to someone breaking out of their pre-conceived notions of 'masculinity'. I think its because they think they have to sacrifice much of their own joy, freedoms, and creativity that they feel guilty, mad, and disbelief that someone else did not make that 'sacrifice' in order to 'be masculine'. On top of all that, you have this aspect of certain men who see women as inherently 'lesser than' or at the very least, 'in their own lane' and never the two shall cross. They don't understand that the very notion of 'men' and 'women' or themselves more loose categories we made up to try and describe these differences we see in people. They are not hard limits. They are not discrete data. They are not handed down by some immutable being. And so when you cross those perceived lines... when you mix those concepts up a bit... when you bend the 'rules' as they see them, these folks catch a conniption. We got so much work to do to break people out of these inherently hierarchical and rigid mindsets... sigh. But meanwhile, imma just do me.
The problem is they mock women or should I say black women.. they’re not wearing it because they want to or for fun they’re wearing it as a joke. Why is it funny for a man to wear a dress anyways? How is it homophobic to say that? A man just simply wearing a dress is hilarious? I don’t get it. I feel like that’s rude to the people who do drag and actually wear them because they want to
Hello.... You definitely made some (all) very good points hands down!! And as for what you said at the very end.... I hope you keep doing exactly that unapologetically!! Yet at the same time I have no doubt that you will!! And didn't need any comment from me saying that I hope you will!!??!!
@@JettabbgDrag has roots in misogyny regardless and making a mockery of women. It's not just men wearing dresses because they like it, Drag is a performance. Ironically women tend to make up a large portion of the fan base. I am one of them, but I can acknowledge its roots.
@@Jettabbgyou chose to ignore that the men arguing about why they hate the men that wear dresses are never discussing it from the view of how it mocks black women but from a mad up idea of it being an agenda to emasculate them.
Glad to have someone point out that white men wear dresses ALL THE TIME! Like, Lip Sync Battle was a show where Tom Holland dressed up as Rihanna and Channing Tatum dressed up as Beyonce. These aren't niche actors and this wasnt a niche show.
Yea they just don’t have conversations about there actors manhood over acting like we do. There like 1000 A list non black actors who done it but black people zero attention to that. Which they need to because it would end this narrative completely.
The “black men in a dress” convo needs to be about how many of y’all don’t find black women funny (as reflected in the # of successful black women vs black men comedians) until a black man dresses up as one of us
I've always believed this and unfortunately people who dont understand the industry or get lost in the sauce. It's really not about facts anymore its about how certain things make you feel. Katt saying he didn't go mainstream because he didn't do gay characters was absolutely hilarious, since during that time he was supposed to be next guy he failed to show up for marketing events, didn't show up on set, and got in trouble so many times off screen that studios didn't want to work with him anymore. He was absolutely erratic at the time and still is to a certain degree. When companies invest so much money in you and you're unreliable of course they're not going to fuck with you after a certain point. If a Kevin Hart comes in and is willing to do all that shit and then some and be reliable they'll choose him and keep working with him 10/10 times. Its not hard to understand...
You're just parroting kevin hart talking points. Kevin himself said he would never wear a dress because he has a image an brand to "protect "... Then wore one.. Dave Chappelle literally walked away from millions when he was THAT GUY. So if katt said he walked away from millions because of shiesty nasty working of the industry your first thought is to laugh an call him a liar?
@@crowing3886, Katt Williams admitted to forcing a black man to wear a dress via contract. So what does that say about Katt that he thinks it is so evil and harmful to black people, then did it to a black person?
@@Misbeliefz false, he said if he were to work with a person again they would have to be playing a particular character..nobody was force an even Ricky admits that. Him an Ricky has had beef for years. That's not my point nor do I care. What I'm saying is if he is telling you about the diddys an harvey weinsteins in the industry an he left go of millions an opportunities because he refused to do stimuff why is your first thought to call him a liar? To defend harvey an diddy?
@crowing3886 Dave wore a dress back in the early 90s as a teen in a movie... Katt was in a potential gay rape scene with Terry Crews. I love Dave and he to me is a GOAT but I've seen interviews where he complains more about being overworked and being looked at as more of a commodity rather than a person which caused him to walk. The issue which I agree with Oprah was Dave couldn't handle the immense pressure and responsibility with a show that got too big for him so he left. Like people don't understand when you become a mainstream star the workload becomes extremely ridiculous to the point where it drives these stars crazy. Which is why you see a lot of them get hooked on drugs and heavy drinking. Not only are you shooting movies/making music for hours on end you're doing promo work across the country. Doing tours, working on brand deals, talking with studio execs, and many other side gigs. You dont have a break. This is what happened to Dave and he decided to get up and bounce from that hectic lifestyle. Don't get me wrong it's probable Comedy Central gave him a hard time. But he was their workhorse so their treatment of him was to maximize profits. Like that business/corporate world for you.
What about the "professional" black actors underpaid? Hollywood isn't a meritocracy. White troublesome actors are labelled "bad boys" and still get paid regardless. Kevin is a better networker than Kat and his milquetoast stand up appealed more to whites that's why he was made the guy. Kevin obviously, had a better agent too.
I just want to point out that they used pictures of Wesley Snipes from a movie where he plays a drag queen alongside Patrick Swayze and John Leguizamo.
What's crazy about the hotep community and saying black men are being emasculated is the whole Johnathan Majors saga. Majors was on that magazine cover wearing pink feathers and said that masculinity was fluid and the hoteps fliped out. Then he gets accused of assult and now he's the most masculine black man and needs to be protected. Crazy times.
Tbh when black Cishet male actors was wearing dresses in comic movies, its usually mocking black woman (both cis and transgender). Which was a the goto jokes
I always thought it was a throw back to vaudeville style comedy. Back when all the actors were men because women were banned. So all the female characters were also played by men. So in a way it's similar to slap stick.
@@xletragedyx Tyler perry writes directs and owns the movie studio and distribution company. And he does movies with guys in dresses. Hardly some illumanti plot.
The levels of misogyny and anti intellectualism of Boyce Watkins is astounding. I’m convinced he doesn’t read books written by Black women and even worse refuses to deal with his own (short man) insecurities.
Well, I know he read Frances Cress Welsing. Lmao!! That's all him, T*r*q and Professor BlackTruth talk about. S/N: RU-vid flags mention of TN's name for some reason. Dk why though.
He has a history of screwing back women out of their money or website ownership. But Boyce is extremely passive aggressive whenever he gets pressed so he can’t even live up to his own idea of masculinity
I can't comment as a black man, just as a queer black woman. The idea that black men are viewed as anything other than masculine by society baffles me because, as you said, black men are viewed as hypermasculine all the time. I feel so frustrated seeing my family members be homophobic or making remarks at the expense of others because of the expectations of masculinity or femininity. In a world where there are so many macho men, my dad is often the but of jokes for doing drag for a chairty event, getting hit on by guys when he's straight, or even how short he is. And I think we've made it "too okay". It's something that puzzles me all the time with how fixated I've seen other people be on men wearing dresses or actual gay men. Katt Williams has been homophobic. Even Lil Nas X is having trouble on Twitter with old tweets that are islamaphobic or sexist, but it feels like everyone lost that energy with Katt. Hell, yesterday my brother asked me whether he should tell a coworker he knows she's trans and if he can make jokes. If you have to ask, the answer is no. Anyway, being queer of gnc is seen as this joke or character flaw and it rubs me the wrong way that it's being used to bash on black men.
Yea. I'm fortunate enough to only have a few of these hotep queer hating family members who I just steer clear of frfr. Most of my immediate family are accepting of my sexuality as a bisexual black man. I still get called feminine for how I dress, that I wear makeup, how I speak, act, the activities I enjoy (or don't enjoy). Again, most of them I don't think are doing it with malice but it's still not a very welcoming atmosphere.
The root of it all is trauma and I'm upset that these same men also aren't going to the doctor to actually better their health. I understand the medical system isn't the best but we should at least be getting the basic care. Doesn't mean they'll be less homophobic but I'm hoping enough of the them will realize it's a them problem and stop making it our problem. Too many of these issues are rooted in the same lense: patriarchy, white supremacy and capitalism. And I include capitalism because look how much people put into presenting themselves and brag about how much they've spent on their outfits alone. I'm tired of it all
I think the idea is that since black men are seen as hypermasculine then it’s funny to see them demeaned by wearing dress. Kinda like how straight men think acting gay is funny.
As a gay black man almost in my 50s, I think that what is missing here is that in media when a "gay black male" is needed it's 99.9% the uber effeminate, quippy, sassy, colorful Hollywood Montrose type that we see. It's rarely, if ever the kind of black gay man that I see and that I am. What FD and maybe you are missing here (because he's straight and you're female) is that the agenda WE thought we were seeing was one against black gay men - that there was only one kind of us.
Ahh, yes, the magical dress theory, lol. I can promise you if wearing a dress made you a huge star and millions of dollars every guy in the planet would be getting fitted lol
I used to own a recording studio. Most of the conversations there were about which artists had "sold their soul" to get on. It was always the Black artist mind you. Yet, here they were, in my studio, aspiring to the same spots, yet convinced that somehow they were going to be "different" when it came time to put their soul on sale.
I have to remind myself that the fools on the internet are not the majority. Otherwise I’d be fucking terrified by how easy it is for people to believe anything. Respect for the Danger Doom instrumental. The Mouse and the Mask is a highly underrated album.
@@MrShaiya96 you've never been watching a gucci man video and the majority of top comments are calling him an illumanti clone because he got in shape and got married? It can be very disconcerting.
Very gay black man here. So happy to see a black man NOT be homophobic. I paid a subscription to Boyce Watkins UNTIL the homophobic, transphobic dog whistling began. I have no space for it. Period. Thank you for this podcast!
When you think about how deeply entrenched "masculinity" is in black culture it just gets more and more frustrating. Just look at silly stuff like saying "pause" when black people say something that may be even slightly gay-adjacent. Its something ive seen black men who have gay friends and family do, and the same with super liberal black people. Homophobia is so woven into our culture that even our speech is geared towards separating ourselves from queerness.
Look up the definition of queer, illiterately means strange or odd. So why would I want to label myself as something that could be seen as weird? Do I not have right to feel that way? Dont I have the right to be against something that I deem to be unacceptable regardless of how you may feel about it? Don’t I have the right for you not to decide that your way is the way in which it is to be accepted?
"I train so hard that when i have to spar all i get to fight is my shadow... And ive knocked my shadow out, have you ever did that?" Katt Williams probably
White actors/Comedians who wore dresses Jim Carry Robin Williams Liev Schreiber Arnold Schwarzenegger Sylvester stallone Chris Farley John Lithgrow Tom Hanks John Travolta Johnny Depp Michael J Fox
Don't forget the SNL sketch with Adam Sandler, David Spade and Chris Farley as the GAP girls. Also Farley did it in other sketchs where he played an obnoxious wife to Adam Sandler and a school lunch lady.
This whole dress thing picked up when Dave Chapelle talked about it with Oprah on her show in 2006. Dave said he would never wear a dress.... he wore a dress 5 or 6 years before he made Half Baked, in the movie Robin Hood: Men in Tights (1993). Either Dave has a horrible memory, or he thinks the rest of us do.
As a black man, what's worked great for me is to stop trying to live up to anyone else's (especially the white man's) expectations of how I'm supposed to act. I try to be myself and do things I like, whatever that looks like. I recognize that this is near impossible in the world we live in, but trying to live as something you're not is legit impossible. It'll just drive you crazy.
You head the nail on the head starting at @11:30. I’ve always said that the world is obsessed with painting black men as crazed sexual creatures. All my friends claim I was reading too much into shit. Thank you again for giving me another video to share 🫡✊🏾
The last part is really the key. We have to think about who benefits from Black men maintaining a more brutish and narrow expression of masculinity and manhood. It ain't us.
Thanks for breaking this whole thing down. I first remember hearing about the “black men in dresses” thing from my dad about two years ago when some weird slideshow video (of the same pictures of black actors in drag) circulated around his group of friends. I love him to bits and I say this with love/respect, but he fits the description of the working class black men that you describe as susceptible to this nonsense to a tee. While he sometimes does entertain the homophobic/misogynoir laced barbershop theories every once in a while, he knows that when he tries to discuss that shit with me, I (with my uppity gender studies/sociology background lol) will make him process it out and will not let shit slide. He also has made vast strides away from his past “casual” homophobia and transphobia, which I’m super proud of him for. With this stuff though, I knew it was rooted in homophobia and devaluing the feminine (as well as femme presenting men and NB folks) but I couldn’t wrap my head around it, or really why it was so compelling to my dad who has been trying so hard to be better about this stuff. I also really appreciate the notes at the end about emasculation of black men by the state and white supremacy structures - it’s a good reminder for me to give my dad/uncles grace…before I tear them a new one lol
You touched on misigynoir, but I think that aspect deserves a greater look. The undertone is that dressing like a woman is the ultimate disrespect, and that being treated like a woman is the ultimate worst price you “have to” pay to be successful in the white world of Hollywood.
Yeah the "being treated like a woman" thing is always in the back of head when "black men in dresses" conspiracists bring up black men being sexually exploited to further their careers. Like on one hand I wanna encourage more men to talk about their experiences & decrease the stigma. But w/ these guys it feels like rather than being upset at sexual exploitation in general, they're upset at a black man being put into a "feminine" position. bc only women are supposed to be vulnerable to sexual abuse ig?? Like are you mad bc a person was exploited by someone w/ power over them, or bc a "man" was treated like a "woman"?
I was thinking of a way to say this that wasn’t coming off with Hotep vibes like “Us as Black folks are the only ones who worry about this.. etc” But you said it perfectly; “White Men have always had the power to dictate exactly what their personal expression of masculinity looks like.” I couldn’t agree more.
“Hotep” is an African greeting: it means “I greet you in peace, I leave you in peace” I don’t think we should use that word to describe the people that we label “hoteps”
That's not what he said though. It's specific white men in power controlling what the correct expression of masculinity looks like, not white men in general. Toxic masculinity and patriarchy makes sure the majority don't have much choice either
Excellent light work. This Black men in a dress Hollywood edition is past getting old, but I doubt it’s ever going away . Every time I hear it, or read it “I roll my eyes hard”, but it may be true the creation of it may have nefarious roots to keep Black American men preforming toxic/hyper masculinity , because it will continue to hold them back & down . I’ve been apart of this dysfunctional conversation, and the minute you point out the top of the top White A listers who’s preformed in a dress usually it ends with me being called a ‘bitter Black bytch”, only because their unable to give a good counter response.
I used to believe in the agenda and dress stuff and i have worled hard to educate myself in my internalised misogny and phobias, but one of the videos i actually always think of when the dress/ghey agenda stuff comes up is the first video of yours I watched, which had something like, 'there is an agenda, but it's not what you think' and that was the first thing I thought of when this Katt discourse came up. I often send people to watch it when they argue with me about an agenda. That video and your breakdown of Nasheed's Buckbreaking should be required reading for all these 'agenda' guys
Everybody claims there's an 'agenda', but when I ask them about it, nobody can ever say what they 'agenda' is. I get one of two responses: 1) "If u don't know by now, I will never know" Or 2) "Ur one of them" (Either one of the perpetrators of the yet to be revealed 'agenda' or just gay). Funny. Lol.
Any time some of my friends have complained about the so-called feminizing of our Black men, I've asked them to look at the continent, and to see just how varied biological sex and gender is expressed. You have the tallest (like the Dinka) and the shortest (the Twa/Batwa). You also have the very muscular (like the Mandinka in the West) and the very lean, and dare I even say, feminine, in comparison (like the Tusi, and my own ethnic group in the East). Within all this, there are some men (mostly in nomadic groups) who wear "gowns," wear make-up, and are fully adorned with jewellery. And yet ... here we are ...falling into the one image, White supremacist, patriarchal view of who we fully are.
I think we should also bring into the fact that when black men dress as black women it’s also the worse stereotypes and depictions of black women therefore hurting us.
Jackie Chan, Arnie, Sharuk Khan(king of Bollywood) all have done drag and stereotype their women. Stereotypes in comedy are funny. Youz don't have to be sensitive about the 'big Mama's or 'shanaynay' trope. Other cultures do the same thing about their female stereotypes and laugh about it because it's funny
I agree. I think the images stick more for black women because they’re mostly negative stereotypes about black women. And these images are being broadcast all over the world, and giving a false impression to all the people that see it. Also, if we’re supposedly living in a post gendered world, then why is laughing at a man in a dress funny?
I've gotten so tired of hearing this argument of this false agenda over and over again so it's very refreshing to have you pick it apart like this. So glad I found this channel!
Nahhhh that’s a very real thing, it’s not false. Again he also leaves a gaping hole to me when he speaks on the concept of emasculation, if it’s something people aim to do to black men and it has been something that has happened and it is a thing, how come black men don’t deserve the right to not want it be a thing they are coerced or forcefully made to accept?
Katt's deep ingrained homophobia made the interview rough to watch at points for sure. All that stuff about he's so straight that he won't even let men roll his blunts. How any subject or role that would even put him in proximity to gayness was the worst case scenario beyond anything he could imagine. And yet still will say he was upset when someone was using "gay" as an insult. In the end, two things can be true at once. He can straight up say these good things about how morality changes over time, or how he will boost women's careers. And then turn around with some misogyny about why women can't get a man or some deep homophobia about men in dresses.
How is it homophobic to say he prefers the company of women.. he said he doesn't like kissing men and doesn't want to put his lips on the same blunt.. why is that homophobic? 🤔
Please provide some examples of homophobia in the video.I think he was saying he didn't want to share blunts which is understandable. What else did he say that you claim was homophobic
Also how is it misogyny to say some women don't know how to treat or keep a man? Smh I hate how if men have any standards whatsoever we are patriarchal misogynists. There are flat our some women that suck as people, they are not all perfect and that is not misogynistic to say that. And what makes a man in a dress funny? Why is that comedy? These jokes are rarely about a dress and just seem to serve to demean the person wearing it.. it never seems to add to the comedic aspect so therefore there are some of us that see this as suspect.. nothing homophobic about it.
@kkondor1081 listen, some straight dudes don't like sharing things that touches the lips of other men. For example sharing a drink or sharing a Blunt. It's not homophobic if it makes you uncomfortable, especially if you're religious.
I literally started screaming YES and clapping when you started connecting that last point about how the myth maintains BM's performance of that harmful hypermasculinity!! You are sssoooo needed in these conversations
My boss loves him and she's full on Q. So there's that, I'm not even sure all of her conspiracies she spews all day..but one is Jada is pregnant by Chris Rock 🙃
The fact that the meme had two pictures of Wesley Snipes on there as if that is proof is hilarious. The man was literally co-staring in a movie with a white actor and Hispanic actor in dresses, too.
Men wearing dresses traces back to the history of the theater when only men were allowed on stage. All of Shakespeare was done in 'drag'. The trauma that black people have experienced in this country and some homophobia helps fuel this narrative. No one thought less of Robin Williams for doing Mrs. Doubtfire, no one thought he was gay, or that he had to do it, we just enjoyed the movie. To many actors it is a testament to your skill, your ability to convincingly or comedically perform drag.
I agree mostly with your opinion, but people need to stop the false equivalency using Mrs. Doubtfire as an example. No one thought Robin Williams was gay because the premise is a father who dresses as a nanny to get closer to his children. But characters like Medea are supposed to be women without context. In Mrs Doubtfire it's clear his intention FOR dressing in drag whereas Madea is just a man acting like as a woman giving life lessons.
Someone actually said black people don’t come together unless they are putting down one another, whether it’s women or men, and I feel like it’s true now, more than ever.
3,000 books a year?? I know someone that doesn't work and has audiobooks playing almost 24/7 at the highest speed possible even when they're asleep and they clock at around 350 books in a year. Unless you're John Travolta in Phenomenon, that's just not humanly possible.
books come in different lengths. 350 books a year for someone who has it on max speed for audiobooks. must be listening to some of the longest books you can read. The Hobbit audiobook is only 10 hrs long. btw the shortest book is only 6 words long lmao
I will say he's embellished the amount but he didn't say in a year 😅 he just said that as a child he read that much and as an avid reader myself I can believe about maybe 1k. We have to remember children have the most free time and it doesn't sound like he went to a school for any form of education as stated by Katt himself. Not everyone reads the same pace and it's possible to have read a lot but it's not the amount that impresses me if you didn't fully understand what you were reading. Yeah you read a lot but did you comprehend what was presented before you?
@@ky.d1970that’s not the kind of book you’d call a book, then. That’s barely a poem. Plus, even if you read shorter books, you’d still have to read more than 8 books a day, every single day. Most books are around 65,000 to 90,000 words long, with many of them being much longer, like the Hobbit. That means the word count would be between 534,000 and 740,000 words per day, so even if Kay read twice as fast as a normal person (238 wpm), he’d only read ~500 words per minute, so he’d have to spend 17.8-24.6 hours a day reading. Look, either Katt is capping about the number, maybe he’s exaggerating, or he’s capping about the stuff he reads being “books” but either way, it’s obvious 🧢.
Never cared about black men in dresses. Rather I care that there are so few positive masculine black examples in media to contrast against the tropes. I've always thought there were far more white men doing this than black. I just want positive, non caricature black male representatives in media.
Boyce released flashcards that were about 10x more expensive than other ones on Amazon, AND many inaccuracies were found on the flashcards! I think that's enough information to render Boyce's credibility mute.
I don’t believe there is an agenda, but putting male comedians in a dress is a go-to thing in Hollywood. COMEDIANS is the key word. It's typically done for a laugh. Holiday Heart may be the exception, but most other men who were put in dresses were comedians or comedic actors. It's done for a laugh a majority of the time.
Great point. I’m not sure why he brings up a-list actors who aren’t comics because as Dave Chappell said “I’m funnier than a dress” that’s what this is about. It’s laughing at us and not with us
And this is light work? Man, you're really killing it! I know I'm gonna run into another debate about this sooner than later, so from now on, I'll just have this video at-the-ready for presentation.
As a Black ol' school boomer, I always thought the dress thing was blown out of proportion. I was a little girl when a famous comedian Milton Berle did drag. He was big time in his time. He had a guess on his show Bob Hope, another comedian of the time appear in drag with.him. The picture you showed of Wesley Snipes appearing in drag in a popular movie TO WONG FOO ... JULIE NEWMAR, along with Patrick Swayze, and John Leguizamo. Some of these Podcaster need to stay in their lane. Others need to research topics, other need to watch pod cast and find something else to do. I enjoy your work.
wesley snipes character in to wong foo was so iconic ! The reason why I'm sure its never brought up is because his character wasn't a negative sterotype
Thank you, F.D.! I swear, this same thing was on my mind, when the Katt Williams interview dropped. I've always wondered where did we as people get this notion of "putting on the dress, in Hollywood". I appreciate you, attempting to get to the heart of the "mythos". 👍
Yesss!!! I been waitin' on your take on this! 🎉 Personally, I feel the whole interview is enjoyable if viewed *only* as a comedy special -nothing more nothing less- instead of a journalistic piece. Avoid the comments section at all costs to maintain this illusion tho, 'cause being reminded that most people lack the most basic critical thinking skills for their media consumptuon is a huge vibe killer.
Katt said himself his first job is to be funny and entertain. His line of work literally deals with public speaking, image, and having the audience on your side. Not to mention the appeal to authority (he read books and has a laugh per minute algorithm he judges comedians on) and making people feel like they're being told the absolute Truth™️ while everyone else is a sleep sheep.
Omg Thank You FD!!!.. as a Gay man this Agenda Shit is Tired.. You don't have to Wear a Damn Dress that is Your Choice... But for the record Men and Women in Drag Role Switching has been in Theatre for Centuries
I was suspicious when my mom told that about how good Katt Williams interview was. It didn’t smell right to me. But at the same time I’m the nigga who don’t watch movies or stand up, or really anything other than video games, so I don’t really know nothing about what he speaking on. All of this is to say: thanks, I needed this.
Dave chappelle has been in a dress before. People tend to forget he was in Robin hood men in tights. He was in a dress in that movie. Not the entire movie
There could be more discussion as to how some of those portrayals that these men have done in drag play up negative stereotypes of black women. They play their female characters in an unflattering manner, and that could’ve been something worth discussing
It's a dude in a dress - it's a lazy, worn out comedy device where the whole point is to heighten certain characteristics for cheap laughs. So no matter how the actor themselves play the character, ultimately it's always gonna be unflattering.
I just stopped taking him seriously when he talked about how he's always lived clean as if we don't recall his entire 2016 was a string of arrests leading to a drug bust in December.
It’s very insightful to hear an opinion different from the popular opinions in our communities, and commentary on something that is so prevalent in the black community on these ideas and beliefs. But I also want to add that there has been a lot of sexual abuse even to our men and because they are not open about it, we have these issues in our community that are never resolved. It’s just trauma on top of trauma.
Wesley Snipes being shown twice is next level. Seeing how it is from "To Wong Foo" a movie about three cross dressers on a road trip, the other two being Patrick Swayze and John Leguizamo. It is a remake of an Australian movie called "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert". Which stars Hugo Weaving (Mr. Smith from the Matrix), Guy Pearce (Iron Man 3's villain) and Terence Stamp (the original Zod from Superman II). Beyond which, these are movies that are trying to show cross dressing for what it is rather than as just a punch line.
Not Soul Plane being a hate crime 😅😂 And the Patrick analogy is hilarious lol. Humor aside, great points made. Now that I think about it, your theory of maintaining the aggressive black man image being the true agenda makes more sense...
I remember hearing somewhere that this is just a thing Katt Williams does though and it does track in that he kind of reminds me of people i actually know when he speaks sometimes. Theyll tell a whole lot of truth and wrap it up in a bunch of ridiculous shit so they get their message across without having to offer up anything truly personal about themselves. I catch myself doing at times when i hate being perceived lmao the man in a dress thing might be coming from a homophobic space but its not altogether untrue if you frame it as...punching down at black women through caricature is the lowest bar for comedy, most digestible to the masses.
That's a valid point, I feel it's a layered issue or if not layered maybe cause and effect? You put on the dress for cheap laughs but as a result you're shamed for it because fragile masculinity and homophobia. I can only recall white people saying it's artistic or associate it with positives vs negatives.
FD hasn’t addressed the other side of what Katt was suggesting. It seems like he was saying that there is a level of opportunities actors get if they comply to studio demands, despite being against it. Like how producers kept badgering Dave Chapelle to wear a dress despite his insistence not to. Or how minority actors gets labeled as difficult even if they respectfully disagree.
@@signifiedbsides1129it’s not about black actors it’s about black comics. “I’m funnier than a dress” you were probably a terrible teacher. I hope you didn’t teach literature. And how do you know what’s true and what’s not. You’ve never been in the film industry.
@@signifiedbsides1129 I’m not talking about that. I’m saying that there is a side of Hollywood that forces you to do things you don’t like. And saddle the naysayers with negative labels for standing up. If the actor or comic is okay with wearing a dress, fine. But those in charge should understand that no means no. It happens in real life. Recall how your boss saddled you with work that’s is beyond your duties. If you complain about the overburden, then you are the problem.
Him saying that the whole “black men in a dress” problem is just reverse psychology to make black men more into the Neanderthal racist image is amazing thinking and I’m so glad he’s introduced that to me as a conversation point! You sir are doing amazing work!
